2002-2004 WSG Reports [Archive]

Dickhead

08-19-03, 18:26

Now that I have returned from 45 days of apartment life in Buenos Aires, I have a few comments to make.

The manager of my "professionally managed short-term rental" was terrible. The place was filthy when I moved in and a significant plumbing problem went unresolved the entire time despite repeated conversations and despite the fact that it was doing serious damage to the floor. So, I suggest you discuss with any potential landlord who is responsible for what repairs, what is considered repairs vs. maintenance, and what is a reasonable time frame to have repairs completed.

The best two pesos you will ever spend is on a bus guide. Get "Guia 'T' de Bolsillo." It is available at any newsstand. A funny incident was when I was on the Subte and some guy was selling them. I asked him how much and he said five pesos. I said, "Are you sure that's not a 'gringo' price?" He said, "Oh no, sen~or; that is what they cost." I then pulled mine out of my pocket with the $2 peso price tag still attached, and said "No thanks." He walked away and I added, "pendejo" just loud enough for him to hear but not loud enough for him to be sure who said it. This guide would be worth two pesos even if you are not willing to ride the bus, as it has detailed maps, a Subte guide, and many useful phone numbers. Plus it is just the right size. Keep in mind the buses run all night although the frequency decreases. I could argue it is SAFER late at night to take the buses rather than hailing a cab off the street. The only drawback about the guide is it doesn't show you where the "paradas" or bus stops are.

I got frustrated by the lack of spicy food. I found a gourmet store in Talcahuano 100 block that had a good selection but was rather pricey. But, then I found a Bolivian woman in front of Coto grocery on Viamonte near Parana who sold big bags of spices for 1 peso each and had killer hot peppers. Check her out if you like hot food. She sells eggs very cheap too although they are unwrapped; buy some eggs at the store, save the containers, and then go see her. Also Coto's had the cheapest beer I ever found at 1.15 pesos per liter of Brahma and Isenbeck was I think 1.25 (deposit bottles, though).

Don't throw away your Subte ticket until AFTER you have exited the turnstiles as I saw a few inspections taking place on a post-dismount basis. In fact, take a look before you throw them away because sometimes they have discounts on film developing, movie admission, and stuff like that. For that reason I recommend buying only one-trip tickets even if you are going to be using it a lot; the more tickets, the greater the chance of winning a prize.

Watch for amazing savings on certain days of the week for using particular credit cards in particular places. Coto on Sundays had 10% off on everything if you used ANY debit card. Some of them aren't open on Sundays though, and I think they all close earlier that day.

Always try to bullshit your way out of any cover charge, any place, any time. Tell them that Place X doesn't have a cover and you will just go there instead. Tell them you won't be staying long. Tell them only dickheads pay cover charges. Whatever. This worked for me 90% of the time.

Another thing to do with your 2 peso bus guide is to pull it out in the taxi and fake like you are watching the route they take. Keeps 'em honest. Even better use would be to REALLY look at the route BEFORE the ride and get an idea of where they should be going. Of course, they may know that one route is quicker than another that is shorter and that is fine. Bear in mind that during periods of heavy traffic the Subte will be a lot quicker than either a cab or a bus, as well as being cheaper. Also when comparing bus to Subte remember you can transfer for free on the Subte but not on the bus.

When landing at the airport, buy a round trip ticket on Manuel Tienda Leon bus as this is cheaper than two one ways by 4 pesos (32 vs. 36). Remember, they will pick you up at your hotel as well as dropping you off there; no need for a cab to the bus station although that does save some valuable time.

Also when landing, do not use the money exchange by the baggage claim but rather the one right as you exit customs. It is a bank branch and will give you a better rate, although not as good as downtown. The best rate for money exchange OTHER than street vendors that I found was in 500 Tucuman. It was always .01 better than the ones on Florida. Check the rate there and then tell the street changers you need a better rate. But, I did not use the street vendors often as I think your chance of getting "trucho" (counterfeit) is higher there. Twice I exchanged money on Tucuman AND used my no-fee debit card at an ATM, on the same day, just to experiment; both times the rate I got from my bank was within one centavo per dollar (either higher or lower) than what I got on Tucuman (called Exchange Montevideo). ATM is faster and you don't have to show your passport. But, if your ATM card charges fees you are probably better off on Tucuman. Hours are 10-3 and 6-8 M-F. I forget the weekend hours but they do have some.

Hope this helps.

Boxing Rule 222

08-19-03, 20:04

Dickhead,

I am glad you had a great time in BA. I am renting an apartment for my stay (a few months) in BA. Could you please give the name of the apartment you rented? I do not want to have an apartment that has bad plumbing.

Thank you,

David

P.S. Could you list any of the great apartment girls on this website?

Saint

08-20-03, 02:44

Thanks for the tips Dickhead. I still think about just packing it all up from time to time and moving down there. Life is so nice down there. The only thing I worry about is finding some job there that pays enough to get by. I was told today the internet cafes with telephone booths make decent money. I don't know what they consider "decent' though. I'm gonna look into it.

I still might take a year off and see how life is like there in the near future. Anyone that is going down there any decent amount of time, please continue to post in this section any tips or suggestions or information that might be beneficial to others.

Thanks.

Saint

Guillermo

08-20-03, 14:31

DH,

I was actually looking forward to using the Subte when I was there, unfortunately, there is only one line that travels through the NW part of town, and it's too far from Recoleta to be useful. Most of the lines travel East-West, and are obviously designed to carry people into and out of the center of the city. There is one North-South line that runs within the center of town, but the distances are so short, you may as well walk.

If you're staying in Congreso, then I'm sure it's a great way to get around, but I'm afraid we Recoleta gringos will just have to hoof it, or take a taxi.

Guillermo

Prokofiev

08-20-03, 15:18

Just got back after 35 days in an apartment in BA. Have to report the city itself was a bit below my expectations. Not bad, but certainly not in a league with Paris, London, Berlin, Barcelona, Chicago or New York. No single attraction sticks out. Several museums, but none are world class. Bellas Artes Art Museum is pretty decent. The city has a lack of information about everything. A weekly listing of music, theater, shows, entertainment really doesn't exist. Newspapers have listings but virtually no useful info about the events. Most clubs and restaurants cannot afford to advertise. Food is quite good but I wanted more variety. The confiterias look wonderful, but most of the pastries taste similar, dry, semi-sweet and made with dulce de leche. Like Mexican bakery, it all looks better than it tastes. I was sick for 17 days with a terrible cold that slowed me down, so maybe I was in a bad mood.

On the other hand, the ladies, SWs and clubs were beyond my expectations - and my expectations were high. Cheap prices, very attractive women of all ages, but above all sweet love making with great attitudes and skills. I was impressed. I have been going back and reading DickHeads posts from earlier this year. The arguments about SW's and safety. I imagined Florida and Cordoba as dark, lonely streets with tough looking gals and the occasional dude with a switchblade standing next to a dumpster . . . Instead Florida seems like a US Mall, squeeky clean, well lit and Maria and her friends are the least intimidating SW's in the world. Seems kinda funny now that I know exactly what he was describing . . .

Over all, bang for the buck was off the charts both with the girls, restaurants, my departamento and most shows and music. Also great weather in winter, at least for me. Some girls complained it was SO cold at 63 degrees? Felt great. Try it you'll like it. But don't expect NY or Paris . . .

Dickhead

08-20-03, 15:35

Originally posted by Guillermo
I'm afraid we Recoleta gringos will just have to hoof it, or take a taxi.

Guillermo

Hop on the bus, Gus.

Dickhead

08-20-03, 15:40

I have been going back and reading DickHeads posts from earlier this year. The arguments about SW's and safety. I imagined Florida and Cordoba as dark, lonely streets with tough looking gals and the occasional dude with a switchblade standing next to a dumpster . . . Instead Florida seems like a US Mall, squeeky clean, well lit and Maria and her friends are the least intimidating SW's in the world. Seems kinda funny now that I know exactly what he was describing . . .[/i]

Just remember, cuz, if it weren't for me you never would have met her (and you call me a worthless dog!). BTW she never told me she completed secundaria. I was confused. That was Karen. But Maria is definitely 27 and not 26: DOB is 24/7/76. That's why the 1976 was in the hot mail address; I had to get creative cuz there's so damn many Marias and so damn many hot mail accounts.

I miss the snot out of her already. I was so homesick for BA last night I went back and read all of my posts from the trip. I'll always remember the last thing she said to me: "Amigos, amantes, amigovios."

Prokofiev

08-20-03, 16:11

Yeah, I remember the date so she just turned 27, making her only 10 months younger than Andrea. Is it REALLY her sister? Who knows. They definitely look alike. And she seemed kind of sad thinking that her sister would lie and steal a trick, but also said it wasn't the first time that happened. Pregnant? Who knows. I'm no doctor and I didn't feel anything kicking. Maria told me several times no high school. Worked as a maid at a very early age - which explains a lot. Took her to Cafe Tortoni my last night for some food and music. Her first time there. A sweet kid and my #1 memory of BA

Peace, -P

HappyGoLucky

08-20-03, 20:16

Originally posted by Saint
"I was told today the internet cafes with telephone booths make decent money. I don't know what they consider "decent' though. I'm gonna look into it."

Hey Saint,
I had a long talk with an Argentinian graphic artist who manages a locutorio in Villa Devoto. He told me that the hottest thing going right now are locutorios rigged for internet gaming and that with approximately 15 computers a store can profit around $3,000 pesos per month after expenses. I can't attest to the accuracy of his estimate, or how much more one might make with telephones, but I had the impression that gaming computers (without the telephone business) might be less hassle and more profit. He also said that I could probably set up business for about U$S10,000 (without phones). If you learn any additional info., I'd like to hear about it too.
Thanks!
-Hap

Saint

08-21-03, 02:01

Happygolucky,

Ironic since I talked to someone earlier this week that has friends that own these. You're 100% correct. She told me that many of them are making money just on these computer nerds or kids staying in the cafe playing these games on the computer sometimes up to 6 hours a day each. The income stream sounds about right but I highly doubt it would be as easy to start them for $10,000 us or 29,000 pesos.

I'd seriously be interested in starting something like this down there. Maybe a nice internet cafe with private booths to allow mongers to view all the websites they wanted, nice snacks and drinks (including Red Bull for those of us that don't get much sleep), calling cards, telephones to call the States or international calls. If it was big enough you could have a cafe section with food and nice tables outside. It would be a cool place for mongers to meet and hang out.

Would Jackson or anyone else that goes down alot be interested in pooling together and trying to start something like this? I mean, there are tons of internet cafes but we could try to make one a little unique. The othe thing I don't know anything about is if you have to pay people off to get good rates, getting robbed all the time, etc.

Email me if you're interested: saintofba@hotmail.com

Bodhi

08-21-03, 17:16

Hiya friends,

emailing again from the vicinity of Cordoba City. Seen some fresh, young looking girls on Avenida Castro. Taxi driver says a TLN can be had for $150 peso, but havent experienced any yet. Not sure about safety and security and other issues for this town for mongering. Please anybody with info or contacts for the hobby contact me here.

Many thanks for great posts,

Bodhi

JamesBond69

08-21-03, 23:22

Would Jackson or anyone else that goes down alot be interested in pooling together and trying to start something like this? I mean, there are tons of internet cafes but we could try to make one a little unique. The othe thing I don't know anything about is if you have to pay people off to get good rates, getting robbed all the time, etc.

Email me if you're interested: saintofba@aol.com [/i][/QUOTE]

This is the type of thread I like, figuring out collectively the key questions: How do you make enough money in BA to support the monger lifestyle. I were move there in a New York minute if I could answer this question.

I would be curious to hear from Mongers who have gone down there and made money with their own business ventures.

I'm not keen on the idea of owning an internet cafe although I think some American know how could probably create a nice "lifestyle" business with this cafes which seem all the same.

When I was there last November I met two mongers that made a bit of money on the side. One bought some jewelry for sale in the states and sold an item that had something to do with expresso machines.

The other had a substantial business in the states buying and reselling very expensive wines. He bought a large amount of wine from a five star hotel and turned around and selling it to a buyer in Japan.

I think the key to really have a nice business in BA involves an inport-export. Maybe something involving antiques, possibly with an ebay component.

PS
Saint...how are you doing with the rental of your apartments? Has it worked out for you?

Saint

08-22-03, 12:40

Hey JB69,

Actually if I moved down there I wouldn't really be moving down for the "monger lifestyle". I really enjoy the simplicity and beauty of Buenos Aires. Sure the gorgeous girls don't hurt either but ironically if I moved down there I wouldn't hobby that much. If I was living there it would be different. I've had no problems meeting normal girls down there.

I really wouldn't have to make a ton. I'd just want to make enough to live a good life down there and to save up a little. The plan would be to buy an apartment and then find a job where I'd make enough to live. I have NO interest in importing/exporting things.

The apartment gig is a tough one. I'm not really making any significant income. In fact, I haven't even broken even yet for the year after the expenses and management fees. I think Jackson pegged it right. There is really no way to make money doing something like this. At least nothing significant. If I lived there I could manage them myself and at least make some profit but it was an experiment and I'm glad I won't lose money doing it. I don't know if I'll do it again next year. Maybe just one apartment. The great thing is I do have a place to stay whenever I go down there which is nice. Good luck.

Saint

HappyGoLucky

08-22-03, 14:48

Hey Saint,
I received some interesting info. from a real estate broker in Buenos Aires on the costs and procedures for purchasing an apartment or house. In addition, I talked to an attorney in BsAs who wants 2% of the purchase price to oversee a deal. The areas I looked in last week included Villa Devoto and Villa del Parque, both nice upscale residential areas; some of the more famous soccer players live out there. It's about a 12 peso taxi ride from the Recoleta and takes from 20 to 30 minutes depending on traffic.

Anyway, here's what the realtor said:
Property value in Bs As best areas is about 70% the price they had before devaluation, and as you go to neighbourhoods 30 km from the city values are about 50% than before. Notice that now there are no purchase loans available here, and all transactions are made with cash. By the way you don't have to open an account in Bs As, you will transfer the funds from your account to an argentine exchange agent account in New York on behalf of somebody you have given a Power of Attorney to buy for you. Then when the agent confirms the deposit in the States, your representant, the seller and the Notary sign the purchase deed and the exchange agent pays the cash. The cost for turning your
transference into cash is aprox. 1,4% of the amount. If any problem appears and they don't sign the deed, they do the reverse step and the money is send back to your account. Don't worry is as simple as that. Also you should know some other issues: Legal procedure to purchase a property in Argentina:
Actually there are no restrictions for a foreign company or individual to buy in Argentina. you only need to have a representant with local address and wide administration faculties including the registration in the Tax colectors
agency. Thats all.
The purchase expenses include:
4% as Realtor cost (calculated on the real acquisition price)
3% as Notary cost & taxes ( calculated on the price in Argentine Pesos) you wiil arrange with the owner that will figure in the deed.
The procedure is as follows.
A) you reserve making a bid backed with a check ( in us$ will be okay) that will not be cashed until the deed is signed.
B) If your offer is accepted then you have to make a 30% cash downpayment deed plus the Realtors cost (3%) and the previous check is given you back. If the offer is not accepted they will give you back the check inmediately, with no cost for you.
C) Normally 30 days after the first deed (could be 15 days if the apart is empty or 30/45 depending the time needed for the owner to move), the notary finishes all the administrative proceedings and buyer, seller and himself sign the final deed, previously, in the same act, paying the other 70% cash plus the
Notarial expenses. If the seller has an account at the states all the payments, except the expenses, can be done offshore over US Banks.

I hope this info. helps. If you learn anything else, I'd love to hear about it. And I like the idea of a monger's internet cafe (and am mulling it over.) All the best,
-Hap

Sun Devil

08-22-03, 16:43

Here is a link to a report that indicates that Buenos Aires is one of the cheapest places to live in the world, rivaling that of cities in Africa. Also, it gives comparison to the cost of living in other cities around the world.

http://www.ubs.com/e/media_overview/media_switzerland/mediareleases/20030819a.Par.0005.MultiUploadTable.0002.Uploads.0001.File.pdf/PL_2003_e_m.pdf

Dickhead

08-23-03, 14:04

Originally posted by Boxing Rule 222
Dickhead,

I am glad you had a great time in BA. I am renting an apartment for my stay (a few months) in BA. Could you please give the name of the apartment you rented? I do not want to have an apartment that has bad plumbing.

Thank you,

David

P.S. Could you list any of the great apartment girls on this website?

The apartment was Avenida de Mayo 1316 #13C but I think the problem was with the manager, Cristina, and not the building. Sorry, I already threw her phone number away in disgust but if you end up in an office that has cats, dogs, and birds and stinks to hell of animal piss and cigarettes that is Cristina's and you should get the hell out. I have already posted phone numbers, addresses, and ratings of all the apartment girls, good and bad. Alejandra is in 1316 #7G and I have previously posted her phone number.

Saint

08-24-03, 16:20

Hi amigos. Some of you may be aware that Jackson has taken the time to start a charity to help feed the poor of Buenos Aires and the surrounding communities. It's ironic because we both had the same thought about trying to do something to help the poor of Buenos Aires. He was much further along and took a lot of time and effort to put it together. Several of you have emailed me over the past several months asking if I still had plans to start something like this. There is really no need to double my efforts as we have the same goal.

I am asking all of you that have received benefit from my posts in the past and all of you that have received benefit from WSG to make a donation. This probably includes just about everyone reading this forum. Even if you have no plans to visit Buenos Aires you have probably received an indirect benefit of living vicariously through members from this forum. I'm not asking you to contribute a huge amount although if you could that would be great. With the sheer number of guys that read this board all it would take is a small donation of $10, $15, $20, $25, or $50 a year to make a big impact. If you can afford it then donate a few times a year.

I'm sure many of you could care less about the poor of Buenos Aires. If that is how you feel than so be it. I strongly feel that everyone can afford to contribute AT LEAST $10 or $15 to this cause. Several of us at the Thanksgiving Dinner last year contributed money to help with this cause. I hope that in the next few months I see more and more people with a designation under their handle that says they have donated. I didn't even know Jackson was doing that but it's probably a good idea. I would personally feel offended if I'm down there and out hobbying with some of you and you didn't contribute at least a little to this charity.

I feel like I've taken time to contribute through my posts and I've never asked any of you for anything. This is the first time and I hope you can find it in your heart to help out. You can make a donation with Paypal.com and that is probably the quick and easiest way. Please keep in mind that this is Jackson's project and he is the one that took the time to put it together. I know he probably didn't want to solicit donations and he never asked me to. I'm asking on my own behalf. Thanks in advance for your generosity!

Saint

www.wsgcharities.com

MCSE

08-24-03, 19:57

I've been living in Buenos Aires the last 4 years. Argentina it's a terrific place for a living; good weather, excellent food, great and cheap wines, and especially kind and beautiful women.

I didn't lived in many countries in my whole life, so maybe I don't have enough references, but I've lived in several countries and the one I like the most it's definitely Argentina.

When I just arrived here, I made more money here in a few months that what I could be able to make in the US in 18 months. But I don't want you get bored with my personal story so let's go to the facts:

Freedom:
As a foreigner here in Argentina and as a foreigner in Florida, I'm feel better here, more integrated to the society. I had the perception that in the US you have to live all day "under the rules", well, here it's not always like this. You have the freedom to pass a red light, the freedom to tip a cop, the freedom of speech, the freedom of say to an awesome incredible gorgeous girl: "you're so beautiful" and if the same one works together with you: "you're so beautiful, want you take a beer tonight afterwork?" and if you're the boss: "hey beauty, if we agree somethin' I can arrange your promotion". Now what she answer may vary, but the fact is that you have the freedom to do it without any legal or social prosecution. (Some restrictions applies if you work for a multi, and also if her boyfriend get noticed).

You have the freedom of find anytime a prostitute for any reason.

You can have sex instead of lunch, for the same price!

Socially, you don't have the freedom of: take either the subway or bus if you own a car (you can replace the subway trip for a taxi ride and it's acceptable).

You don't have the freedom of own a cheap car if you live in an expensive house. You must to keep slim, tan and good dressed.

This applies a 70% more for the females.

Money:
Did you know that many Ph.D. make here only US$3.000,00 per year? The crisis had influence, but before 2001, they used to make US$8.400,00 per year. A teacher can make US$2.000,00 per year.

In the other hand you have business directors, merchants, who easily make US$50.000,00+ per year.

If a school teacher wants to rent an apartment (studio) and live alone, he/she just can't, since renting an apartment (capital federal) can easily cost over US$170 per month.

For renting an apartment you'll need:

-3 months of deposit
-a warranty (some one who warranty your contract with a property in capital federal, so, in case that you don't make your payments, they can sell the warrantee property).
-pay the ABL (city taxes)
-Expensas (proportional payment of the building maintenance) usually ar$100 / ar$200 depending of the apt size and the building location and features.
-Power & Light (ar$50/ ar$70) each 2 months.
-Water (ar$20+) each 2 months.
-Gas (ar$40+) each 2 months.
-Phone (ar$65 if you don't use it, ar$200 if you use it) each 2 months. (if telecom it's monthly).
-CTV (ar$75/ar$150) per month.

A meal in a regular restaurant in downtown: ar$10 /ar$15

A meal in home for 2 people ar$5 / ar$10 (depending obviously of what you eat).

So, for a minimum survival here you'll need about ar$1.000/ ar$1.500 per month. Without nightlife, girlfriend, and especially madaho's.

Customs:

In General day starts at 10:00 / 11.00am. Yeah, some people starts earlier, especially in the government, public companies and Mc Donald's, from 1pm to 3pm it's time for lunch, at 7/8 pm work ends and people go back home. Nightlife starts on Wednesdays, and many people end working and go to have some dinner then later into Mint and Museum (nightclubs) dressed with ties and suites (midnight to 3AM).

If you understand Spanish you can see some movies that reveal the average life in Buenos Aires as: "Esperando la Carroza (80's)", "Made in Lanus (90's)", I strongly recommend "Vulnerables (1999)" and currently playing "Durmiendo con mi jefe (sundays 21.00 hrs canal 13).

Making Money in Argentina:

Argentina it's not for everyone. It's not for the adventured people who wants an extremely risky business in Colombia or Nigeria, but it's not safe as Switzerland. Rules might change and prices are rising after the crisis. Argentina, as South America in general it's not for employees, it's for entrepreneurs. Unless you have a great position in a multi, it's hard to maintain a life as an employee.

In Argentina, there are many professionals available, and many of them are taxi cab riders, unemployed and independent professionals.

Many of these professionals can survive 'cause they have a family who supports them.

The first thing you have to do if you decided to live here it's to drop out that disrespect for the Argentinean people and the country, witch it's very common and myself I used to have. In less than 2 years you'll realize that this country have so many things to offer.

The second one it's to find a way for make money, witch it's easier now than 2 years ago if you are an investor, the third it's to learn perfect Spanish and porteño accent which will help you a lot.

Safety:

In general, Capital Federal it's a safe place. All you have to do it's don't get the attention of the people. Some neighborhoods are dangerous like La Boca, San Telmo, Barracas, and the Safer Recoleta, Barrio Norte, Belgrano, Devoto, Versailles.

Normal Girls:

Definitely the most beautiful girls are findable in the university campus. University it's free for everyone in Buenos Aires, but there are also some private universities. There is no rush to get your degree in the UBA (public university), so, there is a big percentage of young girls under 23 years old, but you'll also find older woman, this doesn't happen often in the privates ones.

In the gym you'll also find gorgeous woman, especially if located in Barrio Norte, Palermo, Belgrano, Olivos and San Isidro. Anyway, they oftenly think that they are at least a 20% more beautiful of what they really are.

One thing that it's a must, it's to visit la rural fair, promotoras there are always very good looking, anyway, they think themselves are a 100% more beautiful of what you'll see!!

Immigration:

For apply as a permanent resident you have to pay ar$200, and demonstrate you are not a delinquent in your origin country. You have to either demonstrate you have a job here, or an Argentinean wife.

If you take just a look to the white pages here in Buenos Aires, you'll see that there are a 40% +- of Italian last names, a 40%+ of Spanish last names, a 10%- of jewish and the rest from other ethnics. (I didn't made any survey about this but it's obvious).

Many customs, words and food remains from European immigration, so, Buenos Aires is very different from other countries in the region. You'll see a few Indians (mapuches from the south, tobas and diaguitas from the north) or mixtures with Indians. To see a black people it's not common. In Uruguay you'll see a big population of black people, and out of Buenos Aires you'll find more Indian and mestizo.

In the 90's Argentina received some immigration from Peru, Brazil, Bolivia and Paraguay. While in Paraguay people was able to make only US$200 per month, in Argentina they was paid in dollars (1 peso=1dollar) US$600 per month. There was also immigration from Russia and China, since this was a step for arrive in Canada. Till one year ago, Argentina, as some European countries was one of a few countries in the world where tourist visa for USA wasn't required.

Some Brazilians, and Ukrainian girls used to work as prostitutes, and after 2001 many disappeared from the scene.

I like what I like like I've like it.

Andres

08-25-03, 00:08

MSCE:

I second your impressions 98%. I just see that the transportation/status issue is less strict than what you see (perhaps due to different social circles), since many affluent people take the bus and/or the subte. Also, due to the kidnappings wave and to some other reasons, many affluent people try to avoid trendy cars.

Respect to UBA campus girls, I guess that you refer to Design students in Building 3 of Ciudad Universitaria. It's nice to take a coffee in the internal patio and watch the beauties walk by.

Cheers,

Andres

Saint

08-25-03, 02:26

mcse,

Wow. Thanks for taking the time to post all that information. It comes at an especially important time. I'm seriously thinking about taking a year or few years and headed down there to live. I have a few follow-up questions if you don't mind. Or you can email them to me if it's more convenient for you (saintofba at hotmail.com)

What line of work are you in where you are making more in BA than USA? Is that still the case? I hope you, Andres and anyone other national citizens can answer a few questions for those of us thinking about making a move.

I assume you are totally fluent. For those that aren't, how many months would you estimate it would take going to classes everyday to get fluent or at least good enough to work in a job where you're communicating on a daily basis with citizens there?

I read with interest of paying $200 pesos to apply for permanent residence showing I'm not wanted in my current country. What kind of work do I have to show in BA? Does it have to be a formal business where I am working for a company or can it be as simple as me just showing income? Where do you start this process at? Did you go through it? Assuming I can do this, will I have dual citizenship with an Argentine passport as well as a USA passport? How long does this paperwork take?

You listed some minimum amounts people would have to make to get by. What would be a realistic budget each month (you don't have to count apartment expense) for food, taxis, newspapers, everyday kind of stuff? Can you give us a little more insight on the average, medien, and average wages? Thanks in advance.

MoonDog

08-25-03, 02:32

MCSE,

Thanks for the good information. :)

Moondog

El Aleman

08-25-03, 06:53

Saint,

A lot of the info you are looking for, can be found on the web. try:

http://www.migraciones.gov.ar/migraciones/permisos.asp

or via the website of the argentinian embassy:

http://www.embajadaargentinaeeuu.org/

Besides beeing employed, setting up your own business is one of the reasons to get a resident's permit. You have to show $ (Pesos) 100,000.- capital to be invested. But read the official pages, that's the law...

to everybody:

Saint made the suggestion of donating to Jackson's charity, http://www.wsgcharities.com/, which I fully support. I know Jackson and am convinced of the project's sincerity. One idea would be, that everybody who visits BA leaves his unspent pesos with Jackson. I am only looking for a practical way to do so.

regards,

El Aleman

JustGotBack

08-25-03, 21:42

Originally posted by Saint
[process at? Did you go through it? Assuming I can do this, will I have dual citizenship with an Argentine passport as well as a USA passport? How long does this paperwork take?
]

Saint, you won't have dual citizenship. Be careful you don't lose your US citizenship. The US doesn't allow you to become a dual citizen. You can be a dual citizen, but you are born into it. Say your parents are Amercians but you were born in Kenya. By birth you would be a Kenyan citizen but by US law, you would be an American citizen with all the priviledges of a natively born US citizen. You can read all about it in the USCC. This would also work the other way around. Say your parents are visiting here from Brazil and you're born here. You would be a dual Brazilian/US citizen.

The problem is once you are a US citizen. The US doesn't allow you to become the citizen of another country without losing US citizenship. So if you become a Argentinian citizen by taking an oath of allegiance. You forfeit your American citizenship.

You can maintain US citizenship by just being a alien resident in another country. Look at all the expats around the world.

Saint

08-27-03, 01:34

Thanks JustGotBack and others. I don't know what I was thinking but you're right about the dual citizenship. I guess I'm getting conflicting information. Some are saying it's relatively easy to get a working visa with the right paperwork and some are saying it's very difficult.

Does anyone know for sure if I could start a business there and have no problems with working there? I went to that site but I didn't understand all of it. I'll have to research it further but I'd be curious to hear from Americans that have done this. Thanks in advance.

MCSE

08-27-03, 22:09

Originally posted by El Aleman
Besides beeing employed, setting up your own business is one of the reasons to get a resident's permit. You have to show $ (Pesos) 100,000.- capital to be invested. But read the official pages, that's the law...

Visa Requirements:
(traslated form http://www.migraciones.gov.ar/migraciones/radicacion.asp)

- passport (vised and sail) and the immigration card
- Birth Certificate (traslated by a public traslator)
- A certificate that demonstrates you are not a delinquent in the country where you've lived the last 5 years (also translated)
- A certificate to proof that you don't have any legal duty in Argentina, certificated by the Argentinean Police.
- A psico/phisical certification: (you can get it from an either public or private institution, and will contains:
-VDRL (?)
-Torax radiography
-Chagas (people from america with the exception of USA, Canada and caribbean islands)
-Hepatitis B (only for asia)
-AIDS (optative)
-Blood

- Tax for the certifications $2
- Tax for the residence: $200 (cash)

Cause why you're applying for the residence in Argentina:

1. If you're son, father or husband of an argentinean:
-Argentinean ID of the person
-Marriage certificate (only if you apply as a husband)

2. If you are a priest or religion related:
-Certifications of this matter.

3.Student:
-Certifications as a student

4.Artist/Athletes:
-Introduction letter
-Contract for make your activvities.

5.As an employee:
-Working Contract signed by the employer and you, certificated in a notary and in the immigration offices.
-Corporation Documentation
-Proof that the corporation who contracts you have more employees and it's paying the taxes for workers the last 6 months.
-Proof that the corporation it's paying the regular taxes (VAT)
-Proof that the corporation had employees when started-up.
-City licenses if apply.

6.As a business man:
(this is the easier one).
-You need a certification from your origin country to proof you already have a corporation/ stoks in your country.
-References
This give you a non-permanent residence, you can reneuve for 3 years (if they didn't changed the laws in the last 3 years).

7.As a foreign Corporation representative:
-A certification from the corporation that proofs you work for them.
-A certification that proofs (and has been checked by the argentinean consulate) the corporation is real.

8.As an immigrant who have money for invest here:
-Here is the 100.000 pesos
(in my opinion this one is the worst since you have the obbligation to make a deposit in a local bank)

9.Rentist:
-Proof that you make money from overseas banks interest,
-payments from stoks corps overseas,
-etc.

10.Retired:
-This depends of your origin country.

Guillermo

08-28-03, 15:57

Originally posted by JustGotBack
Saint, you won't have dual citizenship. Be careful you don't lose your US citizenship. The US doesn't allow you to become a dual citizen.

This is not true. Some of my best friends are dual citizens. The U.S. will not force you to renounce your U.S. citizenship and confiscate your passport if you acquire citizenship in another country.

You may end up having to pay taxes in two countries, or, if you are young enough, you may end up getting drafted into the Argentine Army (LOL). It's a complicated subject, which depends to a great extent opon the country to which you are applying for citizenship and how they view the issue.

Guillermo

MCSE

08-28-03, 21:30

I don't undestand why you want to get the citizenship. Being a Permanent Resident provides you the same rights but the right to vote in an election. Think about it!

JustGotBack

08-29-03, 02:21

Originally posted by Guillermo
This is not true. Some of my best friends are dual citizens. The U.S. will not force you to renounce your U.S. citizenship and confiscate your passport if you acquire citizenship in another country.

Were they born as dual citizens or did they become one? For example were they US citizens that became citizens in another country or were they citizens of another country that became US citizens? Maybe they only think they are dual citizens but really aren't. I'd like them to go into a US Federal building with both passports. They might only come out with one.

Here's the definition of a Dual Citizen from the USCC, United States Criminal Code -

"the individual became at birth a citizen of the United States and a citizen of another country and continues to be a citizen of such other country"

I know this from personal experience. I used to be a dual citizen. But by my own negligence I lost my other citizenship. I tried to reinstate it but US immigration said that if became a citizen of the other country again, I would forfeit my US citizenship.

It also says in your US Passport that you may lose your US Citizen by performing the following acts among many -

"(1) being naturalized in a foreign state; (2) taking an oath or making a declaraion to a foreign state"

Be careful. You're not going to get a warning that you will lose your US citizenship. You'll just lose it when and if the government finds out. Good luck getting it back.

Sun Devil

08-29-03, 02:25

How about Filipinos born in the Philippines and naturalized in the US? Apparently the Filipino government have made these individuals Filipino citizens just recently. I don't know how the US government treat these individuals.

Guillermo

08-29-03, 14:21

I think the version of the USCC you are referring to may be little out of date.

By definition, every naturalized U.S. citizen is a dual citizen; citizen of a foreign country by birth and then a naturalized citizen of the U.S. The U.S. government does not require naturalized citizens to renounce the country of their birth. Witness Nicole Kidman's announcement on national television that she considers herself to be a citizen of both the U.S. and Australia.

I know many naturalized Americans who still consider themselves to be citizens of their birth country, and carry 2 passports. And yes, they have been to Federal Courthouses and walked out with both their passports.

This is what the State Deparment has to say about it:

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad.

I have no personal knowledge of U.S. citizens who have acquired citizenship in foreign countries. It is my understaNding that, if you are a natural born citizen of the U.S., it is virtually impossible to lose your U.S. Citizenship. I think it's clear that it is a matter of intent. The only possibility for losing your citizenship would be if you willingly and knowingly renounced it, or committed some act that demonstrated your intention to renouce it. And even that is difficult. There are numerous horror stories of U.S. citizens who wanted to renouNce their U.S. citizenship, and the U.S. government wouldn't let them!

Here's what the Immigration and Nationalization Act has to say about it:

Loss of citizenship (INA § 349, 8 USC § 1481)
Section 349 of the INA [8 USC § 1481] specifies several conditions under which US citizenship may be lost. These include:

becoming a naturalized citizen of another country, or declaring allegiance to another country, after reaching age 18;

serving as an officer in a foreign country's military service, or serving in the armed forces of a country which is engaged in hostilities against the US;

working for a foreign government (e.g., in political office or as a civil servant);

formally renouncing one's US citizenship before duly authorized US officials; or

committing treason against, or attempting or conspiring to overthrow the government of, the US.

The primary effect of recent developments in the US regarding dual citizenship has been to add the requirement that loss of citizenship can only result when the person in question intended to give up his citizenship. At one time, the mere performance of the above (or certain other) acts was enough to cause loss of US citizenship; however, the Supreme Court overturned this concept in the Afroyim and Terrazas cases, and Congress amended the law in 1986 to require that loss of citizenship would result only when a potentially "expatriating" (citizenship-losing) action was performed voluntarily and "with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality".

On 16 April 1990, the State Department adopted a new policy on dual citizenship, under which US citizens who perform one of the potentially expatriating acts listed above are normally presumed not to have done so with intent to give up US citizenship. Thus, the overwhelming majority of loss-of-citizenship cases nowadays will involve people who have explicitly indicated to US consular officials that they want to give up their US citizenship.

So, if you are say... Lee Harvey Oswald, and you travel to the Soviet Union, apply for Soviet citizenship, marry a Russian girl, start spouting Marxist propaganda and then return to the United States and assasinate the the U.S. President, then, yes, I suppose that might be grounds for taking away your U.S. citizendship.

Otherwise, I think you're pretty safe.

Guillermo

MCSE

08-31-03, 02:17

Originally posted by OttoGraham
Regarding owning/renting:

One thing you ought to keep in mind is that in Argentina, there is no legal concept or respect for property rights. One document signed by the Presidente of the moment is essentially all that it takes to deprive you of your entire ownership interst in your $50,000 or $100,000 house. Stealing from the foreigners who've invested in your nation is a long-time habit of socialist third world countries, Argentina being no exception. So caveat emptor.

By way of example, we need consider only the recent crisis, when the government decreed that all commerical notes, mortgages, etc... which were written in United States Dollars were null and void, to be replaced with payment in Argentine Pesos (at a third the true value).

-Uncle Otto As I’ve said before, Argentina it’s not a country for everyone. I agree in the sense that Argentina it’s an undeveloped country, but you have to discriminate; first, Capital Federal from the rest of the country, then Argentina from other 3rd world countries. It’s not same Argentina and Somalia, Bolivia, Belize, Chile, or Iraq.

In Capital Federal you can find a lot of expats, European people, and European offspring. Immigration from Europe brought costumes, products and adaptations like in NY, Australia, South Afrika.

In Capital Federal you can buy a rolex, local clubs plays the same music as in Ibiza, some people wear the same cloths of Paris French’s, Argentina’s female hockey team it’s one of the best in the world, as the local rugby team “Los Pumas” whose last year win against the “all blacks”. There are a lot of houses over 1 million dollars and quality places to go.

The devaluation process also happened in Spain, Italy, and other 1st world countries. In fact US Dollar it’s currently devaluated against the Euro. It’s now also necessary to discriminate the devaluation from the corralito and corralon that happened in Argentina:

Devaluation means that people doesn’t believed that 1 peso equals 1 dollar, and now 3 pesos equals 1 dollar.

Corralito means that people had scare of losing money, so as a crowd they (and I) went running to the bank to get back the dollars, but banks never have enough cash for everyone, so the government under Cavallo rules said: you can take away only 150 pesos per week in cash. One week (maybe two) after, in December of 2001, the former president renounced and run away in helicopter from the government house. 25 people killed by the police.

Corralon stands for savings accounts that banks was unable to give back to the tenants.

People went to the Supreme Court to claim their money and was so much paper in a tribunals building that was in danger because of the weight.

Many banks vanished from Argentina, 1st world banks! Who taken away the Argentinean people’s money. Some 1st world governments as Canada they didn’t helped the people, helped the Canadian delinquents. Anyway, this is a very known and easy fraud: Bank vanish, the credits are sold to another bank and the tenants must to suit the vanished bank.

All this happened for a previous reason: The default of payments to the IMF.

Finally, an old friend of my father used to say that for emigrate you’ll need: knowledge, balls and money, so I think that for immigrate in:

USA, you’ll need a 5% of knowledge, a 1% of balls and a 94% of money.

Belize, you’ll need a 10% of knowledge, a 20% of balls and a 80% of money.

Iraq, Somalia, you’ll need a 20% of knowledge, a 70% of balls and 10% of money.

Argentina you’ll need a 35% of knowledge, a 35% of balls and a 30% of money.

Daniel B

09-01-03, 22:12

You have to discriminate; first, Capital Federal from the rest of the country, then Argentina from other 3rd world countries. It’s not same Argentina and Somalia, Bolivia, Belize, Chile, or Iraq.

To put Chile in the same league with Somalia, Iraq or even Bolivia is sheer ignorance. Right now Chile is politically speaking the most respected country in the region. It has the highest GDP per capita in Latin America, the lowest corruption levels, the lowest financial risk index, and a most serious and responsible political class. Its demographics (birth rate, infant mortality index, etc.) are those of developed countries, its economy is the most open and dynamic in the region, and in fact may be admitted to the OECD in a couple of years. Since 2002 it has signed free trade treaties with the European Union and USA. And even though Santiago cannot compete with Buenos Aires in charm, style or nightlife, it is a very modern city that has all the diversity of goods and services you can find in the developed world, together with the lowest crime rate in the region. Due to all these reasons, it has been for the last 5 years or so an immigration destination for people from Peru, Ecuador, and not least (since last year) from Argentina. In fact, many very hot chicas from Buenos Aires now live in Santiago, where they can charge around 150USD an hour.

Saludos

Daniel

Bodhi

09-16-03, 13:25

Dear Friends,

Presently little time for detailed inquiry, but this may help many of us living in Argentina:

The Argentina Custums/Aduana (spell?), is so costly I had to pay $75 US, just for 4 Kilos of used books bought online! Any input regarding how to cut costs of transport into the country in person or otherwise is most welcome.

Many thanks, Bodhi in Cordoba (with some monger locations but no experience partially thanks to very loving and incredible Novia).

Marcos

09-30-03, 12:57

This section is a great idea, as I'm almost ready to move in BsAs to stay all summer if not longer. I plan to visit Brazil and other S.A. countries but in my hearth I know that will be for tourism only, and if I'll be able to call home a place in the future, this will be Argentina. I took a trip to Asia this summer, knowing already that it would't capture my heart, and so it has been. While nothing compares to the excitement I experienced when waiting to travel in Argentina for the second time, (having there an hot and affectionate friend waiting), it is a comforting feeling to know that, all going right, I am about to swap winter for summer, living in my favorite city. Aside this sentimetalism here's my info about buying a place in Barrio Norte. Prices goes from usd 800 to 1500 / sq. m. You can buy in a range from a shithole more like a small office for usd 8,900 to an excellent three beedroms apartment for 120,000. Hunting well, you can probably find great value at usd 1000 / sq. m w/ one bedroom, that won't require too much work to be in shape you want. About payment, I was reading on escapeartis.com about one guy bringing hard cash to Brazil to avoid the exchange fees (like one grand) - not that I advocate that, but still interesting.

Marcos

09-30-03, 18:00

Bohdi, they may have someway ripped you off. Even in Argentina, customs have public tariffs and duties, and u$ 75 for used books seems excessive. I never had a problem bringing in stuff like electronics but I made sure it did not looked new and declared to bring it out. On the other hand, I never received a shipment, but I guess you can attend in person to clear your goods and pay the correct duties. Of course a time consuming and difficult task if you don't speak castellano. Some rules are at:
http://tracking.alliedintl.com/customs_reports/AR.asp

Prokofiev

09-30-03, 21:54

Stoly,

I don't know where you are from, but I find it strange that as a foreigner, you are ready to purchase an apartment in a city you have only visited once. Might be prudent to rent a furnished departamento first. I spent $440US for a one month rental, very nicely furnished with telephone, electricity, gas and cable TV included, along with maid service once a week. On a 6 or 12 mo lease it would have been less, around $375-$400. And even at that price, several girls said they could find me the equivavent for $300 or less. Could be BS, but even $375 would be a deal . . .

But whatever the price, making the purchase with the right legal advice/protection, buying and moving furniture and getting utilities hooked up will be a lot of work and cash. And you may only stay 3-5 months? And then what, rent it for the winter? I can see a lot of downside to that plan. Just something to think about . . .

-P

Marcos

10-01-03, 10:10

Prokofiev, thanks for your advice but my situation is different from what you may have tought. Last year I spent two months in BsAs and elsewhere, speak castellano with the 'right' accent (guess which one) and have already decided to move to BsAs. The full reasons and details for this move may be uninteresting to readers, just think that I can pretty much decide about my future (agradezco a la vida por eso) and not looking at wide time horizons.
Generally I go along well with Argentinian way of doing business, it's a culture very close to my country's one, where there is little trust at first between the parties but also room for negotiation, and general correctness.
When I looked to rent a furnished apartment I didn't find much of good value. For something that you probably like you would spend u$550 and more. And there were few nice apartments on the market when I looked. For sure, less than u$400 -and- nice would be a great find.
I like the idea of buying because to my eyes rent money always looked like thrown out when you can buy. Plus in the past I've been rewarded by making timely real estate purchase, wouldn't dislike that happening again.
I have no furniture to move. I'll never again ship my cheap stuff from a continent to another, had enoug last time... I've seen some nice rustic furniture from the Arg. interior and wouldn't dislike setting a cozy nest with it. Or, for those that like contemporary (like I do too) I think that shopping in Alto Palermo and around can be rewarding, lot of smart stuff. When I furnished home in north america I had an hard time finding something that I liked, until Ikea opened and so came the cheap stuff above said. Some I even left behind to my friends.
Renting or not your place when you're out is a different matter in each case. It's a sound decision economically on the other hand I personally would never rent my home in the homecountry... because it's 'home' afterall.
Guess I'll have time to bother with that later... Lot of stuff to do before!

MoonDog

10-01-03, 16:41

Stoly,

Remember, if you buy a place, it is strictly cash. There are no mortgages in Argentina.

Moondog

Marcos

10-31-03, 14:03

Not having anything better to do today I spotted another not-so-good (at least IMHO) newstory.
Effective now (soon? I don't know), alchool sales 'to go' in Buenos Aires will be prohibited from 11pm to 8am. That means you wouldn't (or shouldn't, or couldn't) be able to buy booze at the kiosk next door when going home for a late party. But, you will be able to order it for delivery at a resturant or café.
Supposely, this is stop juveniles drinking and hanging out at kiosks. I don´t doubt in some case they cross the line and start giving trouble, but in my experience, that's not the norm at all. On weekends, they simply sit and sip on their beers and sing their jokes, just like any normal boy has done counteless times. They do not look menacing at all when you walk the streets even late at night.
I really hope the Argentinians won't continue following this route of repression that brings no results but only develops desire toward achool among young people, and the need to be smarter than the next guy to get it. Just look at the States and the total hipocracy situation that is there (and, not just about alchool).

Mojokpr

11-01-03, 05:57

Stoly,

I would appreciate any advice or your experiences in regard to buying a place in BA. I'm thinking of doing the same thing this year, any input you have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

ChicagoBoy23

11-19-03, 19:34

Franklin electronic translator was next to useless.
-- only spoke common traveller phrases
-- hard to read lcd screen in hotel or sun

Spanish common phrase book much more useful

Took some spanish lessons while I was visiting and got to point I could converse some with the chicas. Not like we were going to discuss politics anyway !

Marcos

11-20-03, 15:47

Mojokpr,
I haven't purchased anything yet, in fact I haven't even selected a property. So my advice would be totally generic except that I'm getting to know the prices for the most desirable locations. Once you are here drop me a PM so I can be of better help to you.

Marcos

11-20-03, 16:01

Here's the latest scoop on GSM in argentina:
- coverage has not improved, that is only Capital Federal, san isidro, ezeiza, quilmes, but not most of the other suburbs.
- you need to go in reconquista 1084, (near retiro) to open your account. Just bring your passport, declare you're living here and leave a local address. Come back later in the day to get you SIM card. Make sure your phone has 1900MHz band and is unlocked.

- The SIM cost ar$ 42, and the available monthly charged for calling BA are as follow:
100 min, 43 ar$, additional minutes 0.41
250 min, 93 ar$, additional minutes 0.35
100 min,132 ar$, additional minutes 0.31

- Right now there's a promotion for which the first 4 months are discounted by 50%.

- There are other plans for nationwide calls and GPRS service are billed sperately. There is an ar$ 100 credit limit that can be increased making a dedicated payment.

- You will be billed monthy with the first two monts due on the first billing cycle. The contract is binding for 12 months, if cancelled in the first 6 monts there is a 150p fee, or 75 in the second 6 months.

- You don't pay for calls received from 'private' phones, nor international ones. Incomong calls from public phones ie locutorios are billed as outgoing calls.

Before you get all excited about the above, think that a non-GSM phone can be much cheaper. Right now Movicom Bellsouth is advertising some kind of residential-mobile service with 600 minutes for 16pesos monthly. But these TDMA phones are way bulkier and uglier than the latest GSMs.

ChicagoBoy23

11-20-03, 16:17

I recently spent 10 days in Buenos Aires (November)

I have GSM via T-mobile

Coverage was spotty in Center area. Particularly irritating was it only worked in parts of my hotel and not my hotel room. Hotel Claridge 6th floor.

When I visited in September and stayed in Recolleta it worked all the time. When I roamed around the city, Palermo, Belgrano etc coverage was spotty.

My recommendation is wait on GSM until coverage gets better. Note: we have some coverage problems in USA. Great in cities not so great elsewhere.

Marcos

11-22-03, 18:41

CB23, guess what, I'm experiencing the same. What made me particularly jealous of other's service was noticing people talking on the subway. Oh boy...

ChicagoBoy23

01-01-04, 02:26

When does weather start to get cold in Buenos Aires (ie. the hotel outdoor swimming pools start closing up).

I was in Buenos Aires for the 1st week of November and it was great 80 F weather most days.

I am thinking about going back in March - will it still be warm ?

Thanks in advance !

Bandy

01-06-04, 23:05

I was in BA last June, their "winter" season. Temp. around 50 F. Day time temp. still was around 65-70 F. I am sure March is still part of the Summer and pools should remain open.

Bandy

Maddur

01-10-04, 16:11

Bandy is right. I was there in June and July (also March and April). If you are from Chicago, March will be downright hot for you!

Marcos

01-31-04, 02:19

A little bit of info about opening a bank account in argentina. The central bank rules that you must be a legal resident to own a bank account, that is, you need to have your DNI. As described somewhere else on this board, this is quite a bit of paperwork, or shameless corrupting skill, or a combination of the two.

However, there is a way around the DNI requirement, You will need a CDI that is an identifier for tax purposes. To get this, you need to go to your local police station and ask for a 'certification domiciliaria' for AFIP purposes. This will cost you ar$ 10 and will be delivered to your place to actually verify the address. Staying in an aparthotel will be fine for this purpose.
Now, with the certificate and passport, got to the local AFIP branch. Fill the CDI application form. Make copies of all the above. Specify the purpose for the application is investing or real estate purchase. They will stamp your application and give you a number on the spot.

As additional proof of residence, either bring the copy of certificate of domicile to the bank together with the CDI, or bring a contract or bill for a service showing your address. A GSM cellphone will be fine, as I described in another post.

If you are asked about the DNI, say you have applied for, but you know for sure that they can open the account with passport and CDI only.

Finally: if your bank at home has presence in argentina (eg citibank, HSBC), select them and bring a presentation letter or have them email each other. In many cases, opening an account with the same bank can give you faster service and make you save on commissions when sending money, etc. If you have no 'home bank' in argentina, shop around a little to get the lower cost, or special offers like discounts when purchasing with their debit card in certain stores.
Expect things to work sloooow, eg many days between the application and your ATM card working, and few eccentricities, like difficulty getting a checkbook without depositing fixed term, etc.

good luck!

ChicagoBoy23

01-31-04, 15:07

Anybody from Chicago headed down in February. I am looking for a way to get some Pimsleur English as second language CD's down to Buenos Aires. Thanks in advance. Chicagoboy23a.

ChicagoBoy23

01-31-04, 15:25

Ooops - please PM me.

Andres

01-31-04, 15:45

Stoly:

The CDI you are talking about, isn't it the CUIT (Código Único de Identificación Tributaria - Unique Code of Tax Identification)?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My experience is that for opening a savings account things are much easier than for opening a checking account. Formally, for a checking account banks can ask you to present your last-3-year tax reports to the AFIP and proofs of business (salary stubs, for instance).

Hope this helps,

Andres

OttoGraham

01-31-04, 16:52

Stoly,

I have the small question as to WHY any user of this board would want to open a bank account in Argentina? Have you forgotten that two years ago the government essentially seized the bank accounts of everybody in the country and only allowed them access to something like 1000 pesos a month? It's not as if it can't happen again! The country is currently teetering on the brink of another financial crisis; the President wants to repay only 10% of the foreign bond debt that the country has incurred. Read Mary O'Grady's column in the Wall Street Journal this week for more details.

I think the best thing to do is to maintain a U.S. account and withdraw cash by means of an ATM card from time to time.

-Uncle Otto

MeGustaBoliches

02-01-04, 08:36

I have the same question as Otto! Most of my Argentine friends keep the bulk of their assets in dollars in Miami based banks.

Not sure that's a great idea either, the way we keep borrowing as if there is no tomorrow reminds me of Argentina on a much larger scale.....but that's a topic for another thread and another day....

Andres

02-02-04, 16:14

Argentine Banks.

The reason for opening a bank account in Argentina is that:

1) You build credit history (which could help you acquire some services such as special mobile phone lines or eventually credit from banks)

2) You get a local credit card (useful for directly paying utility bills and avoiding long lines at counters and services such as Internet, HMOs, etc)

3) you can cash checks more easily

That said, I wouldn't have more money in Argentina than what is strictly needed. That is, having a ar$2000 position in a checking or savings account doesn't hurt, even in case of default.

Most Argentinians who cannot afford to open an US bank account go to Uruguay (Colonia or Montevideo) and then open a bank account. Uruguay plays the role of the South American Switzerland, since it has a somewhat solid banking system and regulations based on bank secrecy, and it is just a 1 to 3 hours away from BA.

Hope this helps.

Andres

Thomaso276

02-03-04, 10:57

I have looked into opening a bank account here. A foreigner must be an employee of an embassy or an employee of a corporation working in Argentina. As a retiree, I cannot open an account. You would think the banks here would want my money! I am in the process of establishing residency (not citizenship) so I can have a SMALL account here. The reasons are exactly as stated by Andres. When I used to travel to Costa Rica I had a savings account there with $1000. It was purely for emergency purposes and eventually I had the money transferred electronically back to the USA. Having lived here for some time I can confim that there are many discounts when using an Argentine credit card for shopping and living. It is something I cannot take advantage of yet.

Thomaso276

02-24-04, 21:08

I wanted to write a report on my search for an apartment here in BA. I currently live in Recoleta, but I want to upgrade to a building with a pool sometime in the next two months. For the past several days I have checked on buildings that are considered new (less than 5 years) have modern amenities and for the most part, are in Palermo. After walking and talking, here is what I have discovered:

Real estate brokers are advising property owners how to recover from the crash by using their apartment rent. For the most part 2 BR, 2 BA units in these newer buildings have an asking price of $1500 to $2000 dollars per month! There are a few exceptions, such as Quartier Sinclair, which runs about $800 to $1100. It is a nice building, but the neighborhood sucks and the train runs right along the south side of the property. My Argentine friends cannot believe the prices when I tell them about my search. Some buildings along Coronel Diaz have outrageous asking prices. I started thinking about this disparity (because there are some bargains here) and searching the net and here is my take on this phenom.

The newer buildings are less than 5 years old. They were built and units were purchased when the peso was one for one with the dollar. Currently, real estate brokers are begging for units that they can rent to foreigners for the big bucks. When they strike gold with an Embassy employee or a corporate type for these high rents, their client has recouped all of his lost pesos by getting triple the normal rent. Now for the uninformed or the "I do not care because I am not paying - my company is," $1700 dollars seems like a bargain compared to NYC or Washington DC. I imagine many Argentines even vacated their apartments to try and rent them out for dollars while they settled into more reasonable digs at peso rates.

I will continue to search, I have not made the half-price counter offer, and I am sure I will luck out. However, I am not here to personally ensure that someone recovers from the crash by paying pre-crash prices.

OttoGraham

02-25-04, 14:58

Thomaso, I think you might do better if you hired a real estate agent to represent you in an apartment search. Pay them an hourly rate which is not related to the price of the apartment you want to rent (i.e., no commission!). If you get the right agent, you can avoid the foreigner-ripoffs described in your last post.

As Andres would say, "Hope this helps!"

-Uncle Otto

Mojokpr

02-26-04, 05:16

Thomaso,

Have you looked in the Clarin, and these are the going prices? Last time I looked at the Clarin, I thought rents were still pretty good. I don't know how big of a place you're looking for. Maybe your methodology needs some tuning up.

I was in BA last fall and noticed lots of rental ads in the real estate agencies (agencias de inmobiliarios). They cant' give you the foreigner price if you see the price in the window.

Just some ideas. I'm curious what you find out as I might be there for a few months late this year.

Thanks

Thomaso276

02-26-04, 22:20

Here is the latest in the search.

Today I took a ride to Palermo Hollywood to look at some lofts that have been advertised in La Nacion and Clarin. They are called Silos Dorrego. I wanted to arrive early and walk around before meeting the broker. When the cab pulled up to the building, it took me all of 5 minutes to tell him to go back to Quintana. The neighborhood would be considered "blighted" in the States. Surrounded by car repair shops and guys with tattoos all over the area. Yes the restaraunt area was just a couple of blocks away (Palermo Hollywood is supposed to be the chich place now), but I couldn't imagine walking there at night. The area is more rightly known as Chacarita and Villa Crespo. I was another case of a developer taking over a depressed area / building and converting the units. They then try to sell or rent them as the up and coming place to be. Sorry but I am too old to start over with urban development. Additionally whenever I take a ride to a new area I look to see how many cabs are cruising looking for fares. Ther were none for several blocks in this area. Not a good sign for security issues.

Tommorrow I have an appointment to see an apartment in Saints old building on Libertad. I am familiar with it - it is first class - and I prefer the downtown, Recoleta area. The realtor said it was 3000 pesos for 2Br 2Ba. I'll keep you updated on how hard that price is.

Sorry guys, but the ads in the Clarin are for apartments I would not rent. When you do a search for anything between 1000 and 3000 pesos you get about 6 results. I am not ready to move to Once or Centro. And alot of the apartments are in old buildings. Please remember that there is a difference between renting short term and living here. Short term mid level digs are fine for a week or two, but try to think how you live in the states. Do you live next to public housing? or along the RR tracks? Are there several streets in your neighborhood that have boarded up storefronts and vacant apartments with broken windows? Is your apartment 33 sq. meters with a tiny bedroom. Are there 5 units per floor? Meaning lots of visitors to scope out your comings and goings so they can get themselves a new TV when you step out!

Now it is time for my home cooked, buck a pound sirloin. The food is still a great value (as are the chicas).

Later,

Tom

Thomaso276

03-03-04, 15:58

The search is over. Wow, did I learn alot in the last couple of weeks. The bottom line is that prices are rising for real estate.

One of my neighbors here (500 block of Quintana) is up for renewal and the asking price is going up 300 pesos monthly - from 1400 to 1700. His unit is a duplex and it is very nice and roomy but he must use the service elevator for access and our bulding has NO amenities.

On to the newer buildings. For example, there were two apartments available on Libertad, in Saint's old building. Both were 2BR 2BA, one was on the front of the building, the other on the back side. The one on the front was 3000 pesos monthly and it had a bigger kitchen area, it was to be rented unfurnished. The broker wanted a full month commision (5% of the total rent for two years) and a deposit of one month rent. The one on the backside of the building had a smaller kitchen and minimal furnishings. The view from the terrace was bad - you looked at the backside of other surrounding buildings. They wanted 2700 pesos monthly. Although both were very nice units, the second bedroom is very small. I like the second bedroom for playing around so 8 X 9 leaves little room for error! The second unit was shown by a gentleman named Jorge Gibbons, he speaks excellent English and knows the market. His cell phone is 15-5663-8818. He runs a small ad in LaNacion and helped one of my neighbors find an apartment. I have dealt with several brokers and highly recommend him. He does some short term stuff, but mostly one year or more. I told him about another building on Callao (I had done my homework on buildings in Recoleta) and he showed me a larger 2Br, 2Ba on the 9th floor overlooking the street. Very new and modern, pool and sundeck on the roof and small gym room with some treadmills, bike, weights, a universal machine and 24 hours security. The gym is okay for a tuneup but I am going to stay with my current gym. Furnished and equipped. I offered $830 monthly (about 2450 in pesos) and put down a deposit. They had been asking $2700 pesos. It has a terrace, new appliances, including a washer machine (very important to me) and the bathrooms were remodeled and very modern. His commission : 2000 pesos, less than one month, I could not weasle out of the damage deposit but they settled for 2000 pesos. Jorge had mentioned Torres Plaza, a twin tower complex in Palermo/Belgrano that had a unit for rent, but it was $1000 dollars monthly and the rooms were smaller. That was something I already discovered, in the newer buildings the rooms are smaller so they can get more bang for their buck when building. These newer complexes are a little off the main track and I really like being able to walk a couple of blocks to hit any number of boliches.

When I met with the owner of the Callao unit, she lamented how the family had bought the apartment and then remodeled it just before the crash with Peso/Dollars. She said she will never get her investment back.

I close the contact next week so I am still keeping my fingers crossed. Overall I am pretty happy with the upgrade and being able to stay within walking distance of all Recoleta has to offer.

Finally, when I get into the new place, Jackson told me to use the board to let folks know about renting short term my existing apartment during the transfer as I will have some overlap time with both units. Thanks Jackson! I will post the info when all is done.

Next report: the search through the Immigration Maze continues.

MeGustaBoliches

03-03-04, 17:59

Thamaso.

Congrats on scoring a new apartment.

I just finished a similar search. I have a two bedroom unit in Saint's old building. My lease was one year with an option for a second year at the same price. I decided to look around to test the market before exercising my option. I looked, but soon discovered prices have really jumped in the past year...especially in good areas.

I found a newly renovated, unfurnished one bedroom on Libertador for 1200pesos and another small one bedroom for 100pesos on Montevideo near Libertador.

Prices for the two bedrooms I saw ranged from 1200pesos to 2200pesos in Palermo (near the American embassy and near the Easy/Jumbo store), in Botanico (across the street from the zoo) and in Recoleta (Libertad, etc). I found an apartment overlooking Recoleta (same view as the hotel Etoile) for 700dollars.....

In the end I stayed where I am: a furnished two bedroom in Torre Libertad for 600dollars per month, all bills paid. No deposit/no commission. I signed another one year lease, with an option...but this time the owner wanted more for the second year: 675dollars. Still, for a building with great security, a pool, party room, gym, sauna, and air conditioning....it is not a bad deal.....

It will be interesting to see what happens with the pending economic showdown pitting Argentina against the IMF and bond holders. Things could get very cheap again, or continue to go up

DownBA

03-06-04, 18:21

Fellas, if you go to www.buenosairesherald.com and look on the right side of the home page you'll see real estate offerings with dozen and dozens of apartments going for much less than the offering prices Tomaso and others are talking about. I think it might pay to check these offerings out if you're in the market for a good, reasonable apartment rental. DownBA

Thomaso276

03-07-04, 00:09

DownBA:

Yes there are alot of ads in LaNacion, Clarin and Herald. As well as some other local papers that do not get publicized here. You can limit your searches on LaNacion to new ads posted that day as well. So I stayed pretty current and please remember that I was not looking for a good, reasonable apartment. I wanted better amenities and style that are limited in Recoleta buildings because they are old. (Belgrano and Palermo did not do it for me, too far from the action) I like to walk when I go out.

For example at Callao and Melo there is large building (maybe 20-25 stories) with a pool on the corner of the property, the building has no balconies. I went there with an Argentine friend and he said he was looking for himself. I did not say a word. Looked at two 2 bedroom, I bath units. Both furnished, high with a nice view. He was quoted 2200 and 2500 pesos monthly. The units were clean but had a tired look; worn carpet and furnishings. The doors looked like thay could be kicked in with little effort. They were not bad but not top end. The gym was a joke. The pool was old and worn. There is a big difference, for me at least, in living in an apartment or renting one for short stays of a month or less. For one month I would have been comfortable there. A two year stint would be impossible.

By the way furniture stores are next on my search list. Although my apartment is furnished and equipped I told the landlady to take all the living room furniture out. Heavy dark, grandmother hand me down furniture is not what I was looking for and most furnished apartments have that stlyle. Saint's places were the exception. The furniture store "block" on Arenales (between 9 of July and Callao) was a major dissapointment. Quality items but very, very expensive and a bit insulting when I asked for a price on a piece. I took a trip to the 2000 block of Belgrano because local contacts, regular citizens, had recommended Av. Belgrano, and I checked out over a dozen stores. Good quality leather and wood furnishings. Asking prices were half of Arenales. For example a leather recliner in Arenales was over 2000 pesos, on Belgrano 900. A 2 person leather couch on Arenales 4000 pesos, on Belgrano 2000. I did a search on USA furniture sites for similar products and prices for the Belgrano stores were about 200 dollars cheaper than in the States. At one store on Arenales there was a fancy TV/Stereo stand made with glass, wood and steel . When I asked the saleman for a price he scribbled out $5000 pesos on a quote sheet. They were beautiful pieces but not worth that kind of money! When I get those kind of price quotes I just walk away. Most stores did not have price tags so it is a big negotiation game. Furniture stores in Buenos Aires Design were actually cheaper than Arenales and they put price tags on their merchandise for all to see. So at least all customers start off on equal footing, not just gringo prices. Luego.

Thomaso276

03-07-04, 00:11

DownBA

03-07-04, 02:40

Tomaso, thanks for the info!

So is it safe to say that you can get a reasonably nice one bedroom apartment for under U$1000 per month if you don't mind being in Belgrano or Palermo or one of those neighborhoods 15-20 minutes by taxi from Recoletta?

Seems to me there were quite a number of places available away from Recoleta for between U$500 - 1000 but it's also true that a fair number of them were studios, but some of them were very nice looking studios. Personally, that's what I would have in mind if I were looking and I've stayed in Palermo and Belgrano and I like those neighborhoods a lot. Sounds like you're going to be having more than your fair share of fun in the coming months, Tomaso. Happy mongering!! DownBA

Thomaso276

03-07-04, 10:43

DownBA:
Absolutely. There are plenty of deals in BA for well under 1000, and 500 monthly will get you very nice digs such as a studio or one bedroom in an excellent building outside of Recoleta. My problem was wanting two bedroom , two bath with pool. I prefer a seperate bathroom for the girls and the second bedroom is for screwing and partying. I also found that real estate agents are begging for units to rent to foreigners so dealing directly with an owner was limited but not impossible. Owners don't want to spend alot of time showing their properties. For example, one day I went to an apartment in Recoleta advertised in La Nacion. There were 4 locals waiting to see it. The owner never showed up! Take care. Tom

OttoGraham

03-07-04, 12:53

Recoleta is only one of many nice neighborhoods in Buenos Aires.

As an example, Exon123 and I were in Palermo Hollywood having lunch at the excellent Spirit (reviewed on the restaurant page), and I noticed how genuinely nice the neighborhood was. I'd previously only been there during the evening, so I hadn't had the opportunity to see this neighborhood.

It's only a six peso cab ride from Village Recoleta.

One example of many.

-Uncle Otto

DownBA

03-07-04, 21:44

Otto and Tomaso, thanks for the info, glad to hear there are still plenty of places more in line with what I'd be willing to spend were I to rent a place in BA for a year. Stranger things have been known to happen in my life, you never know when I might have a good business reason to do just that. And yes, I think there are plenty of nice neighborhoods other than Recoleta. DownBA

Thomaso276

03-10-04, 22:41

The Immigration Maze

Although it has been some time since I had to write policy manuals, I will attempt to simplify the process for establishing a residence status in Argentina. I cannot guarantee that this report covers all aspects of applying for and receiving legal status as a Pensionado, because I have learned along the way and I have not fulfilled all the requirements. This outline only covers persons who are receiving a pension. I cannot comment on those who wish to establish a business or who simply have enough savings to simply retire. A visit to the Argentine Immigration Web Page listed below will provide more information.

Important Addresses

Immigration Offices: Av. Antarida 1355 Start at middle building
Web Page for Argentine Immigration: http://www.mininterior.gov.ar/
Federal Police: Azopardo 620
Colegio de Traductores Publico (Public Translation): Av. Callao 289, 4th Floor
BuenosAires-ACS@state.gov : the email address for US Embassy in BA.
Medical Tests: Rossi Clinic www.cdrossi.com Several offices in BA
The Nearest Boliche: Because you will need some stress relief!

Where to Start

Don’t make the same mistake I did. Start your paperwork compilation in the States. You will need (at least) the following original papers: (More specific information regarding what kind of status and corresponding documentation you need is on the website for Immigration)

Birth Certificate Criminal History Passport
Proof of Pension and Amount, I had the Pension Board Order – a legal document - and monthly statements showing money received.

Here is where I missed out and will have to backtrack. All papers that originate from the USA have to have an “Apostille” Stamp on them. It is a completely separate stamp from a notary or any other legal seal on the paper. Now I am still working this out, but basically it is a stamp issued by the Dept. of State (either Federal or State Organizations) that verifies the paper and authorizes other countries that have signed a treaty that recognizes civil papers issued in cooperating countries. Here is a quote from the attachment they sent me.

“Therefore, for U.S. public documents to be valid in Argentina, one should obtain an apostille (a special kind of certificate) from either (1) the U.S. Department of State, in the case of documents issued by U.S. federal agencies; (2) clerks and deputy clerks of U.S. Federal Courts for U.S. federal court document; or (3) from the secretary of state, or other authority for documents issued by authorities and notaries public in the state or other jurisdiction. Under the Hague Convention, neither Argentine consular certification, nor any other authentication other than the apostille from one of the three sources listed above, depending upon the authority which issued the document, is required for a U.S. document to be used before an Argentine civil authority.“

Although I have these papers I must now figure out a way to get them to the appropriate state agency for the Apostille Stamp. I will be going to the US Embassy next week for further clarification. I believe, for example, that a birth certificate from NY must get a stamp from the NY Dept. of State. I imagine my pension order (there is a hearing in front of a board and a legal ruling) must go to the State of Florida, Dept. of State.

Okay I Have the Papers and the Apostille Stamp

You must have these papers legally translated by a Public Translator. Go to the office listed above on Callao 289. They will ask for your current address and then search their database. They will give you a list of translators in your neighborhood. You must contact one of them to arrange the service. The price is negotiable and not set by the College. They are independent operators. I used an elderly lady who had money problems and probably overpaid. I gave her 200 pesos and she had to hire someone to type. Well, she was pleasant enough and we had a couple of lunches, it is only money. I also had about 10 papers translated because I was trying to cover all bases. Do not be fooled by the sign in the office, it relates to another process called legalization. After your papers are translated the translator will use sort of a notary stamp (the stamp is used in a manner in the rear upper left corner so it spread over the back of page one and the front of page 2!) and sign them. Make sure they arrange the papers so that the first page is the English page and the second is the Spanish ( I got one bounced back because the pages were reversed! It cost me another 10 pesos in taxi to return and get it Legalized). Legalized means that after you have your papers you return to Callao 289 and pay 15 or 20 pesos per page for another stamp. This is the process called “Legalized.” It is 15 pesos for the next day, 20 for immediate, which is about 20 minutes.

Ready Set , Slow Down

You have all your papers and are ready to go. Next comes the medical exam. You can get it done privately or they will let you make an appointment at the Health Section in the Immigration Building. I went private and used the Rossi Clinic. You need blood work and a chest XRAY. Total cost less than 100 pesos. Blood test is for AIDS, and some other stuff I do not understand. The web page for the Immigration Dept. outlines what tests you need. Just print it out and bring it with you to show to reception. Blood test results take a week, the XRAY was delivered while I waited. When you are ready for “document verification desk” at Immigration bring all the papers and the XRAY. There is a medical section in the buildings where a Doctor reviews and approves your health based on the report. It saves some time to have them in hand.

Have You Been Good In BA?

I haven’t completed this part yet but at some point in time you have to be checked by the Federal Police (PFA). There is an application form at the building listed above on Azopado. Do not go there yet, just read on. You get the form at the front counter, but have to ask for it. You do not have to wait in line (there are always lines) because a lot of those folks are trying to get other internal papers from the PFA. Just wal;k through the front doors and the counter is on the left. The form is 8 x 20 and is titled “Formulario De Solicitud De Passporte / Cedula / Certificados.” You want to check off the box that says “Certificado de Antecedentes.” Face the wall where all the numbers for waiting are flashed and employees are behind their desks. Look right towards the office where you can pay for copies (bring copies of your passport), walk towards that section and on your left you will see a large sample hanging from a column of the form you are holding. It shows folks how to fill it out and really helps. The line for the antecedents is usually very short. You do not need a number, just wait in line.

When I was there 2 months ago, with a Spanish speaking friend, I handed the lady the application and was told that I needed a stamp from Immigration on the form! Immigration never told me I need the application stamped before the PFA would process it. Last week when I was at Immigration, there was a section headed “PFA.” I saw a lady taking fingerprints and the applications. Perhaps you do not need to go to Azopardo since they restructured Immigration. I do not know. I do not know if the application form is available at Immigration. I can say that I had a meeting last week with a supervisor at Immigration who reviewed my paperwork and told me that after I get the Apostille stamp on three papers (Birth Cert., Criminal history from USA, and Pension statement) to bring them directly to him. I think I will then go through the medical process and PFA process right in the Immigration building.

I Have Everything and am Ready for Anything

If you are lucky and smarter than me (which isn’t difficult) when you go to Immigration on Antarida 1355, you will have everything ready. There will be lines. Monday is really bad. They are only open from 8:30 am to 1:30 pm, Show your stuff to a Coast Guard type guy at the middle building and wait in line outside the building. Once you get into the building get a number for the “Document Checking / Certification” counter. They hand you one right at the information desk. Each area has excellent signage. The girls that work there verify your documents and then I imagine allow you to go to the Medical, or PFA sections for further waiting. I never got past the counter but I am getting armed for my next encounter.

Where I Went Wrong

Just a few points to ponder. I got all my papers in the USA in December and subsequently found out about the Apostille stamp. I am in BA from from Jan. to June, 2004. I wasted a day at the PFA and got turned away because I did not have the Immigration Department Stamp on the application. Your documents are only good for 6 months then you have to start over again (I don’t think this is for the Birth Certificate, but for Medical, Criminal checks, etc., anything that could change after 6 months). My clock is ticking and I do not think I will make it in time. Of course, Immigration was closed for the whole month of January for their vacations. My translator did not tell me to take the papers back to Callao for Legalization so I was frustrated at Immigration when the girl told me the papers were not valid and to go back for Legalization (which at the time I did not understand – I believed the stamp from the translator was adequate). You may run into time limits at Immigration. For example, because they are only open 5 hours daily, if you leave the document checking section and go to get a number chit for the medical section, they may tell you to come back tomorrow because they have maxed out for the day and will not issue any more numbers. After my frustrating second trip, I asked an employee at Immigration to recommend a lawyer. I went to see the lawyer, he spoke no English and it was confusing. I did see the recommending employee while at the lawyers office a couple of days later so I felt there was a good connection. Anyhow, the lawyer didn’t know much about the system, and I haven’t heard from him since. No fee paid. There doesn’t seem to be a Immigration lawyer group down here. In Costa Rica there are companies that specialize in getting you resident for a fee. My investment so far, including copies, cabs, fees, etc. is less than 200 dollars. The fee for the card is 200 pesos. To get papers to the states and have them stamped and pay those fees might run another 100 dollars. I am starting to wonder if it is worth it. Bring a Spanish speaker with you. This is not “how much” “sin condom” “dos horas” Spanish. It is confusing unless you are fluent and I am not fluent.

OH NO MORE INFO

Today (March 6) at the gym I met a young American guy who married an Argentine girl and is living here. He told me he was applying for the residence as well. He said he needed an FBI fingerprint check for his application. I have not been told about this by anyone else. He said he went to the Police Station by Grants Restaurant on Alvear , in Recoleta (?) – I know the station but cannot remember the street. They printed him and he sent the prints to the States, it took about a month to get it back. That seems pretty quick becasue FBI checks can take months. He uses an intermediary in the States to help the process. My background and basis for pension may exclude the FBI check, as the Supervisor I spoke with at immigration never mentioned it as part of the criminal history check from a Police Dept. in the States. The guy at the gym also introduced me to a friend, another American, who bought the private Health Insurance for use here at the German Hospital, it is on Purreydon past French Street. He has no resident status (they just wanted his monthly premium) and pays under 200 pesos monthly for coverage, he he 39 years old. He said he got check ups, dental cleaning, and may need some inner ear problems solved (broken ear drum) all at no extra cost. I’ll be looking into this soon. One of the big reasons I wanted the card was to explore getting health insurance, but I may not need the residence status. Anyhow, while this process has been a pain, it gives me something to do and being a stubborn Irishman I think I am going to stick with it till I get the damn card! Off to Uruguay in a couple of weeks to cover my 3 month limit.

Aragorn

04-12-04, 19:38

At Jackson's request and because my time in Argentina is running out, I shall start posting information about living here in Argentina. Although the process may be slow, Argentine immigration law has not changed since the 1920's so it is not hard to emmigrate here if you want to.

El Flaco

04-24-04, 23:46

Aragorn,

Did you took the time to read previous postings before saying that 'immigrating' or more exactly obtaining permanent residence is 'not hard' ? Actually the requirements are complex and the bureocracy is very time consuming. What is more annoying, is that you cannot obtain legal residence unless you have a job or substantial investor money deposited in the central bank. Thomas added the possibility as a pensionate that I wasn't aware of. So, if you know of any shortcuts or factual advice please share it rather than giving generic inaccurate info.

Man

05-09-04, 18:39

I am interested in buying a 150 Meter 2 bedroom apartment in Recoleta. Anyone knows about costs?

I am looking for a nice place, similar in standard to Jacksons apartment.

Thanks

Jaimito Cartero

05-09-04, 21:51

In talking with Jackson on my last trip, he said that his apartment would be reasonable at the $50k range. So I'd figure 50-75K, depending on quality and location. I don't know the SF of Jackson's place, but it might be smaller than 150SM.

El Flaco

05-10-04, 00:21

"Nice" apartments in recoleta sells for 900-1400 USD per sqm in recoleta, depending on numerous factors, but accept the fact that after seeing the nice places, you probably won't like the lower priced ones. Apartments of 150 sqm here usually have more than two bdrms, and the conversion cost (if desired) must be taken into account. Jackson's place (a duplex, in local RE parlance) is easily worth 75K and maybe more, and I'm saying that without knowing the exact footage.

Thomaso276

05-10-04, 00:50

A couple of months ago I had a broker show me apartments in Jackson's building. I was shown 2, both basically large studios. Both were unfinished (concrete floors, concrete walls, rough plumbing, no fixtures at all). The broker quoted $125,000 to buy either one. I told her they were worth about $25,000 because they needed another $25,000 to be completed. All in all it was a waste of a couple of hours. Their attitude seemed to be: take it or leave it. Of course, without a mortgage industry, or title insurance, it was a cash price. Like I am going to give someone $125,000 in another country! I do not even pre-pay 125 pesos for the chicas!

A broker friend had just sold a 1 Bedroom, nothing special in Palermo or Belgrano (I cannot remember) for about $40,000 to an American. Prices are up and inventory is down because for two years all the bargains were snatched up. The prices are still low, but steals are rare.

I get the impression that because things are stable right now, Argentines think they hold a dominant position in any negotiations. A strong internal growth rate, that will not last, is fueling this "we don't need any help" attitude. Polls show that security is the number one concern and paying outstanding debt is low on the priority list. When they need capital improvements to sustain growth or upgrade water and fuel plants and have to turn to international financing the pendelum will swing back. Because of the lull in talks with the IMF and bondholders, all looks smooth. But those bills are still unpaid and the Gov't receives just enough to keep afloat. I think that will change sometime in the future and there will be another "sale". Alot of folks are still living on credit cards.

All in all it is still a bargain for the quallity of life compared to USA prices. But buying in another country is something I would never do.

Andres

05-10-04, 22:10

Thomaso:

Another reason for the raise in apt prices is that, after the bank collapse of late 2001, many people tend to invest in real estate rather than in banks.

Andres

Aragorn

06-05-04, 16:38

Flaco,

You try and emmigrate to the United States and see how easy it is to get in.

As far a time consuming I again refer you to the process of establishing residency in Canada or the Untied States.

Every year thousand of immigrants from Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Asia relocate here. It's not that hard. What is difficult is that the process does not meet the "expectations" of North Americans and Western Europeans.

The requirements for being a resident in Argentina are clearly spelled out in the the Ministro de Migraciones website.

http://www.mininterior.gov.ar/migraciones/radicacion.asp

Read and heed.

Saint

06-11-04, 22:45

After wanting to do it for the past two years I'm finally going to go for my dream of moving to Buenos Aires. I'm planning on enrolling at a local university and studying spanish 4 hours a day 4 days a week. I'm also negotiating to become a partner with a travel agency. It's a very exciting move for me but I'm very nervous about such a big move.

I hope to meet up with many of you and assist you in the future. I'm also going to start some other businesses down there. I want to get back into renting apartments too.

Hopefully BA as a citizen is as good as BA as a tourist. There is still a small chance I could stay in the USA but my heart is in BA.

Saint

P.S. A special thanks to MCSE and Marcos and Thomaso276 for posting such good information. It's been helpful.

Thomaso276

06-14-04, 10:41

Here is some information from the latest report on cost of living for large cities. Note the South America information. Lima is more expensive than Buenos Aires!

New York remains the most expensive city in North America, at 12th position in the rankings (score 100). Other costly cities include Los Angeles ranked 27 (86.6), Chicago in 35th place (84.5) and San Francisco in 38th place (84.3). Pittsburgh is the cheapest US city surveyed, ranked 112 (66.5). All the US cities have dropped in the rankings due to the depreciation of the dollar against European, Canadian and Asian Pacific currencies.

“Cost of living differences within the US can be even more than those between the US and other popular destinations worldwide, mainly due to variations in accommodation costs,” said Mrs Sepede.

Though still relatively inexpensive, Canadian cities continue to move up in the rankings due to the strength of the Canadian dollar. Toronto is in 89th place (71.8) and has become more expensive than a number of US cities. Ottawa is the least expensive Canadian city and takes 124th position (62.6).

Since the devaluation of the Argentinean currency in 2002 and the subsequent financial crisis, cities in Latin America have become among the cheapest in the survey. Asuncion is the least expensive city globally, at 144th position with a score of 42.7. Other cheap cities include Montevideo, Buenos Aires and Bogotá in places 143 (score 47.2), 141 (47.7) and 139 (48.6) respectively. At the other extreme, Lima in Peru is the most expensive city in Latin America, at position 118 with a score of 63.6.

Dancesw/Chicas

06-14-04, 18:22

Thomas,
Good stuff
Where did you find this report?
DWC

Saint

06-14-04, 22:13

I think he took it from the Mercer Human Resource Consulting report.

http://www.citymayors.com/features/cost_survey.html

http://www.finfacts.com/costofliving.htm

This is a big part of the reason I want to get down to BA. The quality of life down there is great but it's really tough down there to make money. I think my main goal is going to be to study for the first year. I do want to start a few businesses though..

Magic Don Juan

06-22-04, 14:25

Hi,

I'm from Texas and I was down in BA about 5 months ago, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I am considering buying an apartment down there to rent out when I am not there.

I am thinking I can get something decent for around $50K, but my concern is the taxes and insurance. Are there any property taxes, and if so around how much? Would I as a foreigner have any problems purchasing a property or do I need a special visa?

Also does anybody know anything about insurance costs on apartment rental properties, and would the income earned from the rental property be taxable in Argentina? Thanks a lot guys, I am real envious of you lucky guys who are living down there right now, I miss all those lovely portenas.

PS anyone know of some websites where I can look at properties for sale in BA?

Andres

06-23-04, 10:05

Magic Don Juan:

Depending on what do you mean by decent, for US$50K you may get it or not. If you want to buy a roomy apartment in Recoleta (2 bedrooms, amenities, etc.), you won't get anything like that for less than $70-80K. Prices went up.

If you have cash and passport, I guess that you may be able to buy property. I'm not sure if you need a DNI (national ID) in order to sign a notary bill.

As of places to look for prices, search in Google.com for "inmobiliaria" and "Buenos Aires". Plenty of them.

Banks offer insurance. No personal experience about that matter. As of taxes, so far you won't be chased if you don't declare that income. However, things may change soon.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Saint

06-23-04, 23:39

Magic Don Juan,

"Decent" is a relative term. It all depends on what you're looking for. "Decent" to you may be a dump to another. I talked to a few people that bought apartments down there as well as realtors. I think Andres' estimate for a 2 bedroom place in Recoleta is way low. Most places in Recoleta are going for like $1200 - $1400+ per square meter for the most part.

Very small one bedroom lofts are selling for the price range you mentioned. There might be some deals out there but I think as Andres pointed out the easy pickings are gone.

Make sure you do some DD and definitely get a skilled realtor, lawyer and use someone that people have had good experiences with. Go back and scroll back and read some posts that others have posted. Some have posted some really good information. I think Jackson said he had a really good lawyer. Others posted information for realtors.

Also be really careful as there is no title insurance down there. Make sure you use a good lawyer to make sure you're doing everything right.

I know when I leased a few apartments last year I was damn glad I didn't own them. In two of them the owner upstairs had a leaky pipe and it leaked through the ceiling. They didn't want to pay for the damages and either did the building. I checked into property insurance and it was tough to get when I was there. Maybe it's changed since then.

Buying a place can be done as an American. Just make sure you do it right. I know some people that bought places in South America that are very happy with their purchases and I know some that wish they didn't do it.

Good luck.

Dickhead

06-24-04, 00:42

Do not buy. RENT. Does the term "expropriation" have ANY significance?

Saint

06-24-04, 04:17

I don't entirely disagree with Dickhead. I think you just need to research it and set it up right in the beginning. Andres pointed in earlier posts how you need to have your property guaranteed by another property.

If you get expert advice BUYING can make sense. If you're going to live or retire in Buenos Aires and live there several years and think of it as an investment it might pay off if you're aggressive marketing it and keeping it fairly busy when you're not there.

The other thing you have to be careful is paying too much. There could be another meltdown with the economy. Argentina isn't out of the woods. I posted way back durning my first trip there that this mess would take years and years and years to sort itself out. It still holds true....

Although what Dickhead says with, "expropriation" is totally right in some places that sound too good to be true. I'm almost embarrassed to admit it but I almost bought a 2 bedroom house on the beach in Cuba. I researched and found a house right off the beach near Trinidad. (La Boca). Great house that would be worth tons and tons anywhere else in the world. With some renovation I had visions of using it as a vacation house and renting it out. The District Attorney was the owner of the house. I was going to buy it for $10,000 US. I put down $500 deposit and was going to fly back two weeks later and pay the rest.

I thought about it and Dickhead's "expropriation" comes into play. The government could take it back from me at any time. I would have had to put it into a Cuban's name in the first place. Of course you can't compare Cuba to BA but this type of thing happens to foreigners sometimes. Be careful. The silliest $500 I ever spent.

Saint

Dickhead

06-25-04, 01:35

No, you can't compare Cuba to BA. Cuba has a stable government.

Andres

06-25-04, 05:27

Owning vs Renting

Depending on your particular situation, one of these could be better than the other. However, most of the time owning makes sense.

If you rent, you are subject to fluctuation of the Peso against the Dollar/Euro. That means that your rent may shift from very cheap to very expensive and vice-versa. It's an unavoidable risk.

If you own, you get rid of that fluctuation, except for the condominium monthly expenditure (which are usually between ar$150 and ar$400 per month) and the City property taxes, which are not very significant (for instance, a US$60000 apartment pays ar$300 tax per year).

Another advantage of owning is that property values tend to converge to historical values even after heavy shocks such as the one of 2001. That is, you won't lose a lot of money in the long run if you buy and then sell later.

A third advantage is that you would be able to argue with the utilities companies from a better position than if you rented, especially for utilities tied to property such as water and sewage services.

As of expropiation, your only concern would be to suffer a lenghtly court process in case that you don't pay your bills or taxes, which may provoke the seizure of your property and its public bidding. Besides that, Argentina doesn't have a background for expropiating small apartments and houses without appropriate severance throughout its 151 years of constitutional rule.

On the other side, renting may be worth for some of the same reasons as everywhere: You like to compare neighborhoods before buying, or you don't like to be attached to property.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Dickhead

06-25-04, 19:00

Sorry, but they didn't have a history of pesifying dollar deposits, either. However, it happened. They didn't have a history of 25% unemployment, and they didn't have a history of people picking through garbage and living in doorways. With all due respect, Andrés, perhaps it is time to adjust to the fact that times have changed in Argentina and the risk level is probably higher than it historically has been.

Could you explain what you meant about "arguing with the utilities companies" a bit more? Also, can you tell me if there is a charge to check my messages on my home phone?

Andres

06-25-04, 22:21

Dickhead:

There is a rich background of financial collapses in Argentina, which makes the 2001 crisis look as one more link of the chain. For instance, just for the last 30 years, the Rodrigazo of 1975, the Petrodollars crisis of 1981/1982, the Primavera plan collapse of 1989, and the Boxex plan of 1992. all of that doesn't count the most "value expropriatory" phenomenum, the inflation and currency change during the last 30 years.

We had some peaks of unemployment, but not as usual as the financial/monetary crises. On 1929, the World crisis hit these shores.

There were, however, some measures with an effect simialr to that of expropriation. For instance, the "Rent Bill" of the 1st Peron presidency, which froze the rental value throughout the two presidencies of JD Peron and made difficult to evict deinquent tenants. As a consequence and due to inflation, by 1954 some landlords received as a rental income the equivalent of a pack of cigarrettes. However, they didn't lose their properties.

Utilities companies are cumbersome to deal with, especially when you want to cancel a service. They usually make you ask for it 2 or 3 times in order to get advantage and make you pay an additional bill. Or they start asking ridiculous exigences. For instance, you signed for a service with an old credit card as a debit debit source. In between, you changed your CC and they took the change, but when you want to disconnect, they ask you your former CC number, since the original form has your original number. You may have forgotten that number, so it becomes a problem.

They shouuld charge you ar$6-10 for a package that includes voice mail and other services. They used to register customers without their previous approval, so customers found out when seeing their phone bills (another example of dealing with utilities)

Hope this helps

Andres

Saint

06-27-04, 20:58

I just talked to an owner of an established real estate company in Buenos Aires who told me some welcome information regarding title insurance. I heard nightmare stories in Brazil from people that had problems with title deed transfers.

She told me that there IS title insurance in Argentina through First American Title but it's rarely used since the property registry in Argentina works very well. Notary publics who are lawyers with three extra years of study, are in charge of doing the transfer of the title deed. She indicated they can lose their license if they don't do things right. She said her company has been in business 35 years and never had any problems with title deed transfers. She said as long as you use a trusted notary public you should be fine.

That should be a little more comforting for those purchasing properties in Argentina.

Rubiks Cube

07-09-04, 01:59

I am contemplating moving to Buenos Aires and had a television question. Is it possible to get Direc TV in an apartment so one can watch all the sports and television shows from the United States. Any information on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

Hi,

You can get Direct TV, but the authorization card with the chip only allows you to access the programming that they have decided is going to be included in their package for Argentina. Of course, there has been a lot of speculation that one could bring a card/chip from a Direct TV box and plug it into their bix her ein Argentina, but it's my belief that since the Direct TV boxes are connected to telephone lines and need to be re-authorized monthly via the telephone connection, that the solution would be temporary.

Still, I'd like to hear from anyone with experience in this setup, because I'm tired of getting ill every day listening to CNN's liberal drivel, and I'd really like to get something more intelligent like Fox News or even MSNBC.

Thanks,

Jackson

Doc Bill

07-17-04, 06:16

Fox news? You mean you honestly think that BNN (the Bush News Network) is intelligent??? Like O'Reilly and Hannity? "Fair and Balanced?" Jeez, Jackson!

About the chip. I brought one to Cuba and it worked there, was able to pick up all US cable. But that might have to do with its proximity to the US, so I don't know if it would work in Argentina.

El Chavo

07-17-04, 14:23

You guys ever heard of sharing an Directv account. There are few people that need more than 3 Sat. boxes per household. Just call Directv up and add the extra boxes. The extra valid (Cards) Sat boxes can be installed elsewhere. Just purchase another antenna for like $20-$30 and you are up and running with no phone line connection since the main box is the only one connected.

Doc Bill

07-18-04, 01:47

I've been reading this section since deciding to start planning to move to BA, and there is a lot of great information on it, thanks so much to all you guys! One thing I haven't found much of, however, and maybe that's because it isn't easy, is how one could make a living there. What are the requirements to be able to work in Argentina? I work in the health services field, and I'm thinking of providing services to expats from the US and other english-speaking countries. I'm sure there's a need, but I am clueless as to how to get started or even research it. I also have very little capital going into it, except my retirement which I won't be able to touch for quite awhile. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Saint

07-19-04, 02:38

Doc Bill,

Join the club. Making money down there as an American is damn tough. At least you have a profession where you could maybe provide services to other Americans or Europeans. ABAT physicians are well respected around the world. I have friends in other South American countries that are physicians and dentists that provide medical services to rich locals and Americans that work at the embassey. They are locals though. None of them moved to that country.

It's not so easy to get a working visa in Argentina. I think you can invest 200,000 pesos ($67,780 US) in some business and they will grant you an investment visa. Still, that is a LOT of money to invest in a business down there. The thing about BA which might be a disadvantage for you is there seems to be a high # of good English speaking physicians down there.

When I was down there I ran into a guy that I helped rent an apartment. He got really sick down there with the flu and he went to a clinic in Recoleta. He said he saw an English speaking physician, had an exam and got medications all for $19 US. He was very impressed. It would be tough to make a lot of money if that is typical down there.

If I were you I would look into office sharing with an English speaking physician already down there. I noticed in the Buenos Aires Herald there are advertisements for ABAT physicians (IM, FP, Therapists, etc.). Maybe you can call/email them and ask them if you can share an office with them. I think if you can bring something to the table they will look at it as an opportunity. The only thing you might have a really tough time with is not having a visa to legitimately make money. One thing I noticed down there is people go to great lengths not to pay any income taxes so maybe you won't have a problem arranging something with an office or solo practicioner down there.

I think most of the ways to make money down there are going to be marketed to Americans/Europeans/tourists. I'd like to think I'll be able to make enough to live down there but I'm not optimistic. My main goal is studying Spanish but I am a partial owner of a travel agency down there and while I don't expect to make much money at least it will be something. I plan on marketing big time to Europe and USA.

Also, real estate might be a way to make some money. If you can afford to buy an apartment you have a good chance of renting it out to businessmen or other tourists. I might try to do that but tough since funds are severely limited now.

If you move down there look me up. I'm moving down August 13th for who knows how long.

Saint

Saint

07-19-04, 02:48

Speaking of healthcare. Some of you moving down here might find this link helpful. Andres actually steered me to this company. You can buy health insurance down here relatively cheaply. The plans seem better than most HMO/PPO plans in the USA. I qualify for the youth plan so I'm only paying like $80 US a month. The site is in English too. Check it out. It has a great reputation and I know several people that use this company. Good luck.

http://www.osde.com.ar/Osde_Binario/default.asp?idioma=ingles

Here is also an informative site on moving to Argentina. Lots of good tips and information.

http://www.expatvillage.com

Also, if anyone is moving down here temporarily or long term you might want to think about getting a Vonage phone. You can make and receive unlimited calls to the USA/Canada for only $35 a month. It connects through your high speed internet connection. PM me if you need a referral and if you sign up through my referral you'll get a free month.

Doc Bill

07-19-04, 02:50

Thanks for the info, Saint. Actually I'm a psychologist, so it might be easier or harder, although I specialize in some areas that most people do not (addictions...yeah, laugh!). I thought I might start by contacting the english speaking embassies there to see if there is a need for services. And yes, I hope to meet you when I'm down in October!

Lennox

07-23-04, 18:55

There is a column in today's Wall Street Journal about Argentina's political climate. I dont' know if this is too long to post here but you need a subscription to read the Journal I'd be curious what Andres's opinion of it is.

In Peronist Argentina,
Every Day is Groundhog Day

By MARY ANASTASIA O'GRADY
July 23, 2004; Page A13

A Paris court ruled this month to permit the extradition of an Italian guerrilla who was tried and convicted in absentia in Italy for three murders he committed while working for the Armed Proletarians for Communism in the 1970s. The ruling reverses a long-standing French policy, initiated by former Socialist President Francois Mitterrand, that granted asylum in France to Italy's urban terrorists.

The decision, which sparked an outcry from some French Socialists, is a welcome signal from Europe that the rule of law matters, even when it comes to lawbreakers admired by leftist romantics. If only Argentina could grasp that concept.

While Europe is trying to bring its terrorists from the 1970s to justice, in Argentina violent leftists seem to be making a comeback in a different guise under President Nestor Kirchner. The new terrorists, called piqueteros, have been sowing destruction throughout the country. A week ago they joined with other activists to trash the Buenos Aires legislature. By all appearances, the president and some of his closest advisers have had a high degree of tolerance toward the latest practitioners.

Yet Argentines have to live with this outbreak of lawlessness and the further damage it does to an already devastated economy. In addition to overt violence, the number of kidnappings in Buenos Aires has been soaring as organized-crime gangs practice this ancient fund-raising method with impunity.

Related to all this is a political struggle as Mr. Kirchner and former president Eduardo Duhalde battle for the heart and soul of Argentina's dominant political philosophy, Peronism. The concepts of law and order have little standing in this struggle. Survival within Peronism calls for a more nuanced version of "justice."

To understand the Peronist value vacuum, it is instructive to hark back to the infamous "dirty war" of the 1970s. The war featured a power struggle within the Peronist party, between leftist revolutionaries of the Peronist Youth Movement (the montoneros) and, at first, the government of Isabel Peron and later the military dictatorship. Former Cuban spy Jorge Masetti describes the early part of the 1970s in his memoir, "In the Pirate's Den." Mr. Masetti writes, "The contradictions within Peronism, a revolutionary movement containing both left-wing and right-wing elements grew apace. Soon both sides were letting their weapons do the talking."

A fascist military dictatorship eventually prevailed, not the least because it was willing to use unrelenting brutality; thousands of suspects were snatched in the middle of the night and sent to the ranks of the disappeared. But the montoneros and ideological kinfolk like Castro's People's Revolutionary Army, were hardly blameless in bringing this retribution. Argentine political commentator Vicente Massot, in his book "Matar o Morir" ("To Kill or To Die"), published in 2003, finds that from May 1973 to March 1976, when the military deposed Isabel Peron, there were 5,079 terrorist attacks. Mr. Massot puts the body count in that period over 400, including almost 100 civilians and union leaders, dozens of policemen, and hundreds of military officers.

The left is of course eager to rewrite this history, leaving out montonero cruelty, and with the political winds blowing as they are, Mr. Kirchner seems happy to oblige them. Seizing the flag of human rights, he rightly denounces the military's grisly crimes. But his righteousness would be far more convincing if it were applied uniformly to all participants in the dirty war, including some of his present friends. To get some idea of the president's romance with the left, consider that the Kirchner government refuses to condemn the human-rights record of Cuba and Belarus in the United Nations.

The stone-throwing, torch-bearing, violent left has had its uses for Mr. Kirchner and the Peronists. Social unrest drove former president Fernando de la Rua from office at the end of 2001 opening the way for Mr. Kirchner's eventual ascent to power. It is widely suspected that piquetero protestors have made deals with the government. Their militancy certainly has been handy for fanning fears in the Bush administration of a leftist putsch in Latin America, allowing the government to extract favors from the U.S.

But now the chickens may be coming home to roost. Although Peronism still has a strong grip on the Argentine psyche, a reaction has been building against the government's coddling of the piqueteros. Mr. Kirchner's popularity has dropped in recent weeks as the population registers its full-fledged disgust with the destruction and extortion, not to mention the subsequent impunity enjoyed by these criminal elements.

The president may be coming to understand that the mob -- smaller in numbers than it was two years ago but exponentially more militant -- will only burn American flags and rant on cue as long as it gets something in return. Those costs may eventually become too high, as suggested this week by Mr. Kirchner's minister of health who declared piquetero leader Raúl Castells, "a terrorist" that "attacks institutions." It is also possible that the marauders have jumped to a higher bidder, namely Mr. Duhalde.

This would explain why the president is now trying to make up with Argentina's biggest labor movement -- known by its Spanish initials CGT. Labor wants wage increases and Mr. Kirchner will need it as an ally if he has to confront the evermore problematic piqueteros.

Yet it is doubtful that accommodation with rival interests can save the president or the country from chaotic decline. One reason is that it will be difficult to reverse a pernicious trend toward the abrogation of property rights and other protections that is infecting the supreme court as a result of Kirchner nominations. One is Justice Eugenio Zaffaroni, notorious for his views that criminals ought to be treated as victims of society. Another is recently confirmed Carmen Argibay, who has pronounced her sympathy for the piqueteros, saying that "there has to be attention paid to the claim of the unemployed."

Argentina is faced, yet again, with a power struggle within the Peronist party between the hard-left and the hard-right. Juan Peron destroyed the institutions that might have protected Argentines from such excesses. The struggle wasn't pretty last time, and it's beginning to look rather ugly now.

ChicagoBoy23

07-24-04, 14:44

How do music CD-ROM prices compare between BA and USA. My amiga wants latest Madonna, Brittany Spears etc. However if its the same or cheaper in BA, I would rather wait and buy them there.

Thanks in advance

Chicagoboy

Dickhead

07-24-04, 15:19

While I cannot commend your GF's taste in music, I can tell you that music CDs are an excellent buy here and probably less than half what you would pay in the states.

Do her a favor and bring her some good Argentinean music like Diego Torres or Ber Suit.

I think you are saying that this is an Argentinean amiga, right? If so, what you may want to bring her are make up and perfume, both of which are more expensive here than in the US.

Andres

07-24-04, 16:27

Lennox:

This is a LONG answer to a long article.

I honestly think that Mrs. O'Grady is lobbying for the banking sector sector in Argentina, among which some miss the ol'years of military rule and bloody repression. Otherwise, many incongruences in her article couldn't be explained:

1) Undoubtably, justice in Argentina is significantly improving despite O'Grady's claims. Several facts prove it:

1.1) For the first time in almost 150 years of constitutional rule, selecting and approving a Justice for the Supreme Court follows unique, transparent rules that minimize the danger of including unskilled judges who accomodate to the Executive Power needs (a.k.a. legalizing corruption). Thus, institutional transparency appears for the first time, with prestigious characters such as Zaffaroni and Arbigay (2 internationally recognized judges).

1.2) Individuals from the Armed Forces involved in the "dirty war" of the 70s are being reindicted and summoned to declare for causes that were banned to be investigated. Exactly what France is currently doing with Italian terrorists: No more impunity.

1.3) Related to terrorist causes, this government received the local Jewish community approval (something REALLY hard to obtain) for their measures related to fixing the mishandled investigation of the AMIA bombing of 1994 (refer to this week's newspapers articles that inform about the 10th anniversary gathering)

Brefly, Argentina grasps the concept much better than what O'Grady imagines.

2) Piqueteros are not terrorist. I think that I shouldn't explain the difference between blocking a road and bombing a building full of people.

Unfortunately, O'Grady is falling into the classic idea of "everything I don't like can be tagged as terrorist/communist/(write your own evil here)". Piqueteros are annoying, I agree, but far from being a serious problem such as FARC in Colombia or the social struggles in Bolivia or Venezuela.

3) 22 activists were arrested for the Legislative building attack and they face serious charges, which could lead to 5-10 year sentences. Did they vandadlize? Yes. Were they arrested and do they face charges? Yes, also. So... what's the deal? These events were much less serious than those similar at Salta, Santiago del Estero or Neuquen during the Menem administration.

4) It is not clear that kidnappings have been soaring in Buenos Aires. In fact, the number of notorious cases reported by newspapers have been significantly declining during the last 12 months. Also, petty crime in Capital Federal decreased as of the statistics. However, it doesn't restrain her to depict a social situation on the verge of anarchy.

5) Calling Peronism "dominant political philosophy" reveals plain ignorance. Peronism lost its "political identity" a long time ago (even before 1974, when Peron died), when it became a partisan structure to reach power and accumulate it. Not much different from the political shifts experienced by the British Labour Party (which isn't anymore a "socialist party") and the Spaniard PSOE.

6) Vicente Massot is a nationally renowned extreme-right supporter. His newspaper "La Nueva Provincia" from Bahia Blanca still justifies the slaughter of "desaparecidos" (missing people) during the 70s in their daily columns, despite evidence that it was absolutely unnecessary (not to mention his declared antisemitism). Clearly, an untrustworthy individual to use as a reference.

O'Grady herself proves it by citing Massot: How could it be that terrorists committed more than 5000 ATTACKS in ONLY 1050 DAYS (from March 1973 to March 1976) and ONLY 400 PEOPLE died from these actions? Were terrorists so inefficient (only 1 person killed per 12 attacks, very low compared to current Irak) or is that information blattantly false? I believe the latter, specially coming from people who consider any "offense to our Western and Christian traditions and morality" a "terrorist attack".

7) O'Grady blames Kirchner as "partial" because he doesn't condemns the actions of the guerrilla in the 70s. However, when the Human Right associations ask for clear investigations by the justice to determine ultimate responsibliities on these attacks, the same parties alledgely victims of these actions request to "not open old grievances" and "drop further investigations in order to reconcile the involved parties for the Nation sake".

There's a lot to mention about this issue, and there are very suprising details when people start to study this phenomenum. For instance, serious suspictions that the militaries and the guerrilla heads coordinated their actions (see the case of the Elena Holmberg's murder).

8) O'Grady contradicts herself when she mentions that piqueteros are less numerous than 2 years ago, but they become increasingly problematic. If they are less numerous, they will become isolated sooner or later. That's what's happening to Mr. Castells, who is facing more than 40 charges in the criminal justice (racketeering, among others).

--------

It doesn't surprise me at all that O'Grady trashed that bad Kirchner government. What could you otherwise expect from a Wall Street organ? It should defend the interests of their contituencies, their customers, which were severely wounded by the last 2 Argentine administrations.

Duhalde and Kirchner changed the Argentine position at the debt negotiation counter, besides of declaring the private debt default. Due to the crises in Turkey and Brasil (which, along with Argentina, they make up to 75% of the IMF and BIRF loans), the IMF is forced to avoid the Argentine default. Add to that the the US Government doesn't want more problems in the region (they've got enough with Chavez in Venezuela and Morales in Bolivia), which is forcing private bond holders to accept the official Argentine Government position of 75% discount (see this week's newspapers), and you will see how much the financial world is losing from Argentina compared to the goldy 90s.

Were Kirchner honoring 100% of the debt, O'Grady would call him an "statistician" and Argentina, a "promising country".

Andres

Lennox

07-24-04, 17:18

Thanks for the response Andres. I enjoyed reading your response a lot more than reading the original article.

SteveC

07-24-04, 17:24

Andres,

I´ve lived in MdP for almost a year and from my experience I agree with your comments. Almost everyone I meet supports Kirchner, and changes to the Supreme Court are long, long overdue. Lack of confidence in the legal process (and the police-mafia) is pretty widespread. But, the torturers are beginning to be indicted, and piqueteros are only a nuisance if they´re blocking your road that day.

For a good take on why no-one wants to pay a penny back to the IMF etc see "Memoria del Saquero" (Memories of the Plundering) by Fernando Solanas. It shows how Menem and foreign business robbed the country blind with its privatisation program. Saw it first at the International film festival in MdP in March; the cinema was packed out and people were cheering at the end. Great film, it should still be going round.

Dodger Bulldog

07-25-04, 03:17

I must agree with Dickhead on Argentine music. The CD's are cheaper, about a third less than in the states.

I was turned on to Diego Torres, as well as Alex Ubago from Spain, and they are both awesome! I hope that listening to them over and over will help my espanol along.

I'll have to check out this Ber Suit that you mentioned.

DB

Dickhead

07-26-04, 19:00

I'm sorry; it is Bersuit (all one word).

Saint

07-28-04, 01:48

Student Visa Hassles

Anyone that applies for a Student visa better have a LOT of patience. Things with the government there are really screwed up. You have to jump through a lot of hoops to get things done. Case in point, when I was in Buenos Aires last month I got all the requested letters, seals, stamps, approvals. I had to get an acceptance letter from my school, have it stamped by the Minister of Education then had to get it notorized by someone official and pay 30 pesos. All this took a lot of time waiting in lines. Luckily my partner helped me a lot with this process.

The Argentine Consulate in the USA told me that I had to have my school contact the Immigration Office in BA to get my name on a list and submit it to them. I asked my school about this and they said it was not necessary since the Secretary of Education was signing this letter. I asked the lady at the office of foreign affairs and she agreed with the school. Said it was not necessary. I assumed they knew what they were talking about. WRONG!

So imagine my surprise when I call the Consulate to check on my passport since I'm leaving in 2 weeks. They tell me they can't issue my visa without getting on a list. So my friend went to the Immigration Office for me and they tell her that there is a new law that started at the beginning of this year.

So all that trouble I went through getting that letter was for nothing. I have to get another letter from the school, signed and approved by the Minister of Education then notorized then take it to Immigration Office. Then they have to fax it to the Office of Foreign Affairs who then has to contact the Consulate in the USA.

Are you dizzy yet? I sure am. It's amazing anything gets done in this country with all the paperwork and going here and there. Now I don't even know if I'll get my student visa in time. It's easy to stay in Argentina indefinitely but I really didn't want to have to cross the border into Uruguay every 3 months. I still have hope. Hopefully all this can be done in the next week.

The thing is...there is nothing you can really do with these type of things. No one you can complain to. You could complain but who would listen?? Kind of gave me the feeling of being in Cuba. Many times I just shook my head and said to my friends... "what can we do?".

Dickhead

07-28-04, 05:42

Just go to Uruguay on the boat every 90 days and don't worry about it.

"We don't need no education
We don't need no stinking Visa
We ain't into masturbation
Buquebus - a fuckin Breez-A"

It'll be a cold day in hell before I get my blood pressure up jerking around with paperwork to get any type of residency in this country.

Latin American country PLUS paperwork EQUALS cluster fuck. OTOH it pales in comparison with what our fine country makes hard working immigrants do to get legal status.

Saint

07-28-04, 12:50

Dickhead,

You're right. In the end, I'll probably just skip the visa and just leave the country into Uruguay every 90 days. I know it's not a big deal but every expense adds up and moreso the time it takes. It basically kills a whole day doing that. I'll be going to school everyday and working alot so the weekends will be my time to relax.

Now I know how they feel trying to get into the USA. Not a good feeling. We'll see how it turns out. I'm giving it another week then just asking for my passport back.

Andres

07-28-04, 12:55

Saint:

As Dickhead said, don't worry to much about the visa.

Having been a student both in Argentina and the US, I will add:

- Unlike the US, Argentina has not stiff requirements for universities hosting foreign students, such as being audited by the INS and requiring a close track of student enrollment.

- Seldom do Immigration agents check the legal status of foreign residents INSIDE the country, and the few times these are geared towards citizens from a neighboring country who look like low class individual (clothes, skin color, education, etc)

So, given that:
- Your school won't worry too much whether you have the papers, provided that you pay your fees.
- DNM (Immigration) officers won't bother you once you pass Immigration at Ezeiza.
- You don't intend to work, and
- You can enter and leave the country every 90 days without much trouble,

then you can make do with your tourist visa for a long period.

Let's say that you expect to study here for 2 years. It means 8 times coming in and out the country. I bet that you will do many trips outside during these 2 years, either back to the US or anywhere else. Meanwhile, you can assess what other foreign investors did to get their residency and make legally a living.

You will starts grasping the local concept of "many times you have to play off the book rules".

Hope this helps,

Andres

Saint

07-28-04, 15:12

Hi Andres.

You make excellent points. I preferred getting a 1 year student visa because I thought it wouldn't be that big of a hassle. WRONG! I still hope I get it. I also heard that once I got a student visa it might make it easier to get residency status in the future. I'm not sure if that's true or not but I figured it couldn't hurt getting a visa to stay without leaving every 90 days. Honestly, I don't plan on making many trips once I move to BA. I figure I've done enough traveling the past 3 years all over the world. Really, I don't have the funds to travel anymore now that I'm not working in the USA anymore.

I'll keep the board posted what happens and IF I get the student visa or not. Cross your fingers for me. I want to feel like all that work towards trying to get it went towards something. Call me stubborn.

I noticed the very thing you pointed out, Andres. The schools there really could care less what your residency status is as long as you pay the tuition. So different from many other countries. That's why I can't understand why they make it so difficult with all the paperwork. It seems like everything takes about 4 papers signed running around the city.

Thanks for the advice. Let's hook up for dinner when I get into town.

Saint

Thomaso276

08-01-04, 23:43

I just spent a quiet Sunday afternoon watching a documentary called "La Republica Perdid." A two CD history of Argentina covering the years from the late twenties to shortly after the end of the last ruling military junta in the 80's. Rented it from: Shortcuts Video store, 1450 Callao.

It was an interesting but encyclopedic approach and story line. Although it does not delve into background information and shocking explanations, like we are used to in some documentaries from the States, it did provide a good overview of recent history. Of course, the point is made by the producers of the film that because of some repressive regimes and corrupt governments tremendous amounts of information have disappeared.

A slight anti-American slant was attached to some chapters- I do not believe the EEUU is the cause of all problems in the world or in the Western Hemisphere - was balanced with a strong inner look at a country where many (but not all) leaders apparently sell out to the highest bidder. A very turbulent history for sure. What I did find surprising was how many times the military turned power back over to a democratic process over the past 80 years. They seemed to step in an out when the mood or the political atmosphere fit them.

I recommend it to anyone who has the time. It does reinforce my feeling that the citizens of Argentina are very patriotic and passionate about their country. They believe in human rights, labor rights and democracy.

The CD's do play on EEUU DVD players, not just for zone 4.

Saint

08-03-04, 14:14

Thanks for the post Thomaso. I also wanted to update on my student visa status. I was just informed that they finally approved it and are mailing my passport with visa back to me today. In the grand scheme of things not a big deal but I didn't want to have to deal with killing a day going to Uruguay every 3 months. I'm told it's very easy to renew once it expires provided that I'm taking any type of classes. We'll see what their definition of "very easy" is once it expires.

Andres

08-03-04, 22:55

Saint:

I'm glad it finally worked the visa issuance.

"Very easy", in this case, may mean spending 2-3 hours at the Dirección Nacional de Miograciones building at Retiro for making a line and stamping a form with just providing a proof of course registration. Much faster than traveling back and forth to Colonia, indeed.

Andres

Andres

08-03-04, 23:03

Thomaso276:

La Republica Perdida was released by 1984/5, at the zenith of the Raul Alfonsin government (left wing of the Radical Party). In fact, it ends at the beginning of his presidency, and was clearly filmed under the political view of the former president.

Even though the left wing of the Radical Party isn't much American friendly (to the point that Alfonsin made a rude speech on his first visit to Ronald Reagan), you have to understand that most of the movie (1928-1983) revolves around the Cold War, when the US played a significant role in securing Latin America under its influence. It doesn't mean, of course, that every move made by any Argentine government (such as invading the Malvinas/Falklands in 1982) was a responsibility of the American administrations.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Saint

08-06-04, 17:40

Andres did me a favor and stopped by a local big name bank to check interest rates on savings/CD type accounts. I was really surprised to hear that rates are so low. Here are the rates below:

1) Current interest rates are:
- 0.25%/year for saving account in pesos
- 0.2%/year for CD in dollars
- 3%/year for CD in pesos

Can any of the financial gurus tell me why the rates are SO low there? In Brazil some of my friends are getting upwards of of 1.5% a MONTH. Granted there is the added risk of the exchange rate fluctuations but what gives? Why is the rate so low in Argentina? Does anyone know why?
I had heard that interest rates were quite good but this doesn't make much sense to me. Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks.

CaptainNemo

08-06-04, 18:31

Here is my thinking on this.

1. Argentina economics are better now. There is trade surplus. It debts situation is under control. Even with its better financial situation, Argentina government still tried to get away on defaulting its debts. The funny thing is, it seems that IMF is letting Argentina get away with it. So, there is a lot of money around. People think that Argentina is not going to pay its debts (or very litter).

2. When people like Saint want to live in Argentina, a lot of money flows into the country. In the past few years, many investment flows into the country. Investors have better confidence now.

When there is too much money in the system, banks don’t wan to take anymore.

But, Argentina is not out of wood yet. A low interest rate encourages more investment in the country.

Andres

08-06-04, 22:36

Saint:

Interests in Dollars are kept at a minimum due to exchange rate risks.

Interest for saving accounts are low because everybody needs, in some way or another, a saving account.

Interests for CDs are always related to alternative investments or lack of investment (Dollar value, inflation). GIven that Dollar revolves around ar$3 since a long time and inflation is low, people don't require high rates to invest in CDs.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Saint

08-08-04, 20:01

Hmm. I'm not sure I buy those explanations. They might be partially true but it still doesn't make sense to me. I'll check it out more once I get there this week. The strange thing is people that live there don't really seem to even know what the interest rates are. I've asked a few people including my partner who has lived there all her life. When I was in BA a few weeks ago she said she thought it was about 10% a year. I'll have to give her sh*t about it being so low.

Captain Nemo,

I don't agree with your post, "too much money in the system, banks don’t want to take anymore".

They probably WISH there was too much money in the system there. Far from it. After the beating many locals took 2 years ago from the banks I'd guess that many of them will never trust banks there again. Many people probably think their money is safer buried in their backyards than the banks.

CaptainNemo

08-09-04, 18:30

“Too much money in the system” is an expression. When there are no people borrowing money from banks, there is “too much money in the bank”.

Dickhead

08-10-04, 12:53

I just did the visa run to Uruguay (Colonia) and thought I would report. The total cost was 72 pesos: 67 round trip on the slow boat plus 5 pesos exit fee (which covered two people but it seemed like people traveling alone paid 5 also????) paid in Uruguay. Note that you have to book at least a day ahead to get the 67 price or else it is 79. All forms of payment accepted including debit cards.

You need to get there ahead of the 9 AM departure. Get there before 8 on the weekends and maybe 8:15 during the week. You have to go through a line to check in and show your passport (even though you already showed it when you bought the ticket) and another line to go through customs, and another one for passport control so it takes a while. And this is without checking any luggage so be aware of that too.

Note that my companion, who is a Mercosur resident but not Argentinean, had overstayed her 90 days and so had to pay a fine of 50 pesos. If anyone you are with is in that situation, it will hold you up further. Note further that I have no idea if this simple fine structure applies to non-Mercosur people like gringos.

Food and drink are available in the terminal and on the boat and are not ridiculously expensive. Most importantly beers are 3.50 pesos but it is the dreaded Quilmes. We ate a big American breakfast first and also brought sandwiches so I cannot comment on food quality. There is a duty free shop, a game room, and an area to watch TV. Dickhead don't do any of that shit.

The boat ride is advertised as 2:45 in duration and it took about 3:20 push off to docking each way. With the queues plan on 4 hours on the boat each way. The ride is boring. There is one salon with reclining chairs, an option to the tables and chairs if one wants to sleep. The boat was not crowded but last year when I took it on the weekend it was quite full.

So you get off the boat about 12:30 or so. You can rent motos, cars, bicycles, and probably a lot of other stuff in the area surrounding the terminal, but you don't need to. You can walk into town and to the historic area although most of you are too much of pussies to do it since it's probably 2 km by the time you get to the historic area. My friend made a big point of saying she knew how to drive and could drive motos too, but of course it was a beautiful 50 degree (F) day and so much too cold for a Paraguayan. We just walked.

Do not wear fancy shoes because the streets are mostly cobblestone and there is a lot of dog and horse shit. The town itself is picturesque but boring. In fact overall it is a very, very boring experience. The food at lunch was mediocre and overpriced; suggest eating in town and not in the historic district. Some bargains to be had on wool and handicrafts. You'll get a better deal by exchange some money; the money changers were giving 10 Uruguayos per pesos and the shops only 9. Left over Uruguayos, up to 50, can be used to pay the exit tax but don't get stuck with a bunch of coins.

Returning, the boat leaves at 6:45 but you don't need to leave quite as much time in advance. 6:00 should do it. You pay the 5 pesos or 50 Uruguayos when you check in. We were off the boat at about 10:15. Getting a cab is a huge cluster fuck but since my friend is a good Dickheadette, we got the fuck out of there and hopped on a bus.

Hope this helps.

DH

Saint

08-10-04, 13:24

Thanks for the report Dickhead. Sounds like a waste of a day to me but a necessary trip for many. I'm glad I got the student visa. Time is a valuable thing to waste. Thanks again for the info.

Doc Bill

08-13-04, 01:04

Thanks for the Uraguay report, DH. I was thinking of spending a couple of days there during my two weeks in BA, but it sounds like a waste of time.

Mickey Mouse

08-13-04, 02:28

DH,
Thankyou for being such a Good Friend and helping a Good Friend!
MM

Saint

08-13-04, 17:53

Hi all. I just arrived to Buenos Aires today for my first day living here. The weather is perfect. I tried getting a SIM card with a monthly plan but they changed the law since Marcos posted his excellent report regarding purchasing a monthly plan. Personal nor Telefonica(Unifon) will sell a monthly plan unless you are a RESIDENT here. At least that´s what they told me and my real estate agent confirmed it today. I bought a prepaid GSM card at Telefonica for 20 pesos and it included a 50 pesos credit. Go figure. Very easy though to set up. If any of you come to BA with any frequency, it's worth it to bring your unlocked GSM phone and buy a SIM card from Unifon. Just bring your passport and they will ask for a local address which they don't verify.

The number of available nice apartments to purchase in Recoleta isn´t that great. The really nice apartments in Recoleta in new constructions are at a high premium. Oh well.

AllIWantIsLove

08-14-04, 14:32

I've come across two web site which might be of interest. One is www.expatvillage.com. It seems to have a BsAs focus. The other one is www.expatexchange.com. It's worldwide but there is a section for Argentina ("Navigate by Country"). And this one has a forum, but it isn't very active.

Bob

Ferolga777

08-19-04, 23:13

Saint

If you write about your life in BA, I will read it gladly. You've proven to be a straight shooter and a good writer. I know I will enjoy your take on your life "en el coño sur.";>)

Ferolga

Saint

08-20-04, 10:24

Ferolga777,

Funny that you post that. One of my good friends just emailed me and told me to post on living in Buenos Aires. Ok. I'll post a journal from time to time. I've been here a full week now and feel like it's been a month. I literally have been running full steam since arriving last week.

I got moved into my apartment fine. It's nice but tough to make the adjustment from living in a huge house to a small apartment. It's ok though. It's in a good neighborhood and the bed is comfortable. What more can a guy need?

I got my CDI the other day. Previous posts were correct on the procedures for getting it. You go to your local police station and ask to apply for your CDI. Bring your passport and 10 pesos. They will ask for your address and the next day a gentleman will come and deliver a certificate that you'll take to the AFIP office. Make sure before going to the AFIP office you have a copy of your passport. I downloaded an application of the CDI on a website before going. Get 2 copies and fill them both out the night before.

You get to the AFIP office and you get a number. They will tell you what cubicle line to wait in. I waited a good while. Maybe close to 2 hours. There were so many people in front of me that I left to go have lunch and came back. Luckily I didn't stay out too long because my number came up. Some people had the same idea as me and didn't make it back in time. When they tried to claim their number was already called they told them to get another #. I was bummed when he told me I needed a photocopy of my passport. I thought I'd have to wait in line again but he was cool and just told me to go around the corner to a Kinko's type place. 10 centavos per copy.

That's basically it. They keep one copy and you keep the other with your CDI number on it. A CDI is necessary to open any type of bank account here and also to purchase property.

I've looked at about 17 apartments so far with realtors, on my own and with friends. Prices have definitely gone way up. 2 years ago was the time to buy. Oh well. Real estate seems to still be a good investment here in Buenos Aires. There aren't too many good properties in or around Recoleta. The new constructions are nicer but very expensive. One small apartment I wanted was very very luxury and posh but they wanted $90,000 for a 425 sq. feet apartment. No thanks. I put an offer on a really beautiful and charming roomy apartment in a good area yesterday. I hope they accept it. I'm also working on listing some other apartments on my site with some partners and also other guys that bought apartments that don't want to market it. I'll list them on www.apartmentsba.com and www.rentinba.com.

I'm not impressed with any of the real estate companies in town. They seem to have this attitude of raping the "Yankee". When I come across anyone like that I just walk away. I try to play the part of "poor student". Then they ask where I live and they don't buy it anymore. I'll probably start some sort of business that assists guys in buying properties. Something that sucks here is that as a buyer you pay a commission to a realtor too. Seems crazy to me. 3% of the total purchase price. Then you have to pay a lawyer another 3% in title fees to handle the title deed transfer. Some things in BA are screwed up.

The weather was great when I first arrived but it's been cold and rainy the past few days. I kind of like the colder weather though. It feels good finally living my dream of living here. If you go back to my very first post you'll see that I wanted to sell everything, quit my job and move here. That is what I did. I never claimed to be an expert on BA. I'm not. I've always posted that I'm just out to have a little fun. I will always post objectively and give my opinions on things. I'm not saying they are right but they are my take on things. Most of you that know me know I'm a straight shooter though.

I've sessioned two times since arriving. Both were excellent and stayed a long time. The one the other night I did an overnighter with and she didn't leave until 2 PM the next day. It would have been longer but I had a lot to do. Unlike a lot of guys that are down here on vacation or retired. I have a lot to accomplish down here. I'll probably be working harder than in the USA to make a fraction of what I was making.

I also have my office set up for my travel agency. It's located at Tucuman 1427 #201. It's a really good set up with about 5 desks. I have 2 employees and 2 other partners. We already have the high speed internet set up for our clients to use computers and check their emails. I'm setting up a Vonage phone so our clients can make FREE calls to the USA/Canada and also call toll free (800/866/877/888) calls to the USA. Between the 5 of us English, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian is spoken fluently and all of us speak English. It will take some more time to get set up but I plan to run it very professionally. We are redoing our website but you can check us out at www.argentinago.com Check us out. I'd love to help any of you coming down finding accomodations, airport transportation, cellphone rental, etc. I think you'll find us very ethical and professional.

Anyway, that's it. I'm going to keep fairly busy here. I'll try to meet up with some of you that are emailing me to meet. Honestly though I can't afford to go out too much. I'm on a tight budget for the first time in my life. It's not that I don't want to go out but living here as a citizen and as a tourist who is making US$ are two different things. I start school on August 30th which should keep me very busy too. 4 days a week.. 4 hours a day. Yikes!

Starfe

08-20-04, 12:29

Saint,

Thanks for the post. Once a week updates on how life is going in Buenos Aires would be great. We want the highs and the lows.

Thanks so much for taking the time.

Starfe

Ferolga777

08-20-04, 13:32

Saint

Thank you for the update.

I hate it when people price things to get the Gringo to pay more. Over the years, I have talked to people that do that and they sincerely feel that it is okay.

I tell them, "Look, I don't want to pay the Gringo price."

And they look at me surprised, "Why not?"

And I say, "'Cause I'm not a Gringo!"

I always get a skeptical look when I say that.

The point is that if you set up a business and you determine that fair value of an item, based on supply and demand, and then you treat every customer with the same respect, you'll do better than the guy that cynically raises and lowers the price of an item based on what kind of a shirt the customer is wearing. I do believe that.

Ferolga

El Aleman

08-20-04, 15:13

Ferolga:

We had that same discussion about two (or multi-) tier price systems on this board a couple of months ago, as far as I remember mainly between myself, board chief economist Dickhead and Otto Graham. While I fully agree with you, unfortunately it is as it is, and many (not all) people are trying to charge more to foreigners than to locals - including, for example, Aerolineas Argentinas on domestic flights.

As Otto then mentioned, the best advice, and nearly only thing we can really do about it, is take our business to providers who treat us as customers, not as milk cows: fly Southern Winds, sleep in hotels who just have one room price, avoid the chicas with $$$ - signs in their eyes. I may add to this advice, spread the word that you are doing so, and why.

In the Czech republic, a few years ago separate prices for foreigners where the norm, today they are more or less gone. OK, they are part of the EU now....

Saint:
check your pm!

just my 2 centavos,

El Alemán

Saint

08-20-04, 15:46

You guys are exactly correct. ANYONE that I feel is treating me any different because I'm a gringo I move on. The problem is that it's a mindset. You can't change their thinking. Even if you don't know it or they are not obviously showing it...they are thinking it. For example, some of these owners of apartments might be willing to accept a lower offer from a local Porteno but when I offer a price they counter offer a relatively high price because they think since I'm an American I can afford it.

Many things here will take time to get used to. People here don't seem to work very hard. They might say they are in the office 8, 9 or 10 hours a day but they like to talk, have a coffee, have a break, etc. What we produce in the USA in 5 hours they might produce in 8 or 9 hours. In the USA when we take a coffee break it's a short 15 minute break. When they do it here it consists of ordering coffee, chatting about sports or kids or weather etc. for a good 1/2 hour to hour.

I'm trying to get my staff to think in terms of USA and USA type customer service where you answer emails ASAP after getting them, soon we will have a USA phone number so you don't have to pay international rates when you want to call in, etc.

I do want to get fluent as soon as possible so as to communicate with the locals on the same level as a Porteno. I think that will help quite a bit. Anyway. I'll try to post updates.

So far my high has been getting a girl I met one night to come over and make dinner the next night, have great sex and not want any money for it. The low was sitting in on a meeting where the owner of a building told me he was negotiable on the price until he saw I was American and wouldn't budge from his $90,000 US asking price for a 450 sq. feet apartment. Crazy bastard!

More later.

Andres

08-20-04, 20:11

Saint:

There's always a way to cheat the cheaters.

For instance, for ar$50 you can ask a notary to make a "written power" to a local "testaferro" (figurehead/strawman/whatever it is in English) who would be able to negotiate as if he is buying the apartment. Once the purchase deed is signed, your notary automaticaly transfers your property on your name.

Let's say that the total cost of having a "testaferro" is ar$500. How does it compares to that time and effort that negotiating as a foreigner costs you?

Ask your lawyer/notary for ways to do so.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Andres

08-20-04, 20:28

Guys:

I know that it is disgusting to suffer price discrimination, but think that in some degree this structure exists in every country in the World (including the US). Get used to it.

In a society where people's main objective is to get the most money as fast and easy as possible, they willl take advantage of every prejudice or stereotype to get an extra income.

The best advice is the one offered by El Aleman: Avoid as much as possible double tier companies.

Don't expect to convince chicas that you are not Gringos! Tell them, for instance, that you are doing research as an invited professor at UBA, so you are earning the salary of a local researcher. In other words, any history that depicts yuo as a gringo making local money.

Chicas also look at how many drinks you took at the place to believe in your version. If you ordered 3 or more sodas for ar$10 each, they will doubt that you cannot spend money (a local guy would never spend ar$30 in 3 sodas, he would buy asoda at a kiosko). My advice: Only order 1 drink at a given boliche.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Ferolga777

08-20-04, 22:16

Andres

Once again, your advice is gold. And it is time tested advice.

It is what Walt Disney did to buy the orange groves in Florida at a cheaper price than he would otherwise have gotten.

Saint, you need a front. I'm sure that someone in your staff would be perfect.

Heard of the concept "Notaputa"? I'm a "Notagringo."

Ferolga

Saint

08-20-04, 23:54

The problem with your "front man" theory is as a buyer I need to go check out the place. If I'm going to invest my own money on a property I need to see it, see it again and see it a 3rd time to decide. Each time I have taken a local with me that lives here. The problem is that I can't always say I'm not the one interested. Some properties my realtor and the seller's realtor are the same person. No way I can lie myself out of that. Honestly, there aren't too many great properties in the areas that I'm looking at that are in my price range. The really great ones are too expensive. What I've found is that most people price their places at least 10%-15% above the true market value of what they can get. It gives them room to negotiate. The problem is that many aren't as quick to negotiate with a gringo. Get my point?

I believe in a free market system where people can and should charge as much as they can. I believe in supply and demand. I also believe in walking away from people that you know you can't or don't want to work with. Same thing applies with food, girls or houses.

Anyway, I also believe in what Andres wrote. I never order more than one drink at a boliche. I'm not there to get drunk. I don't drink alcohol so why buy more than one water/coke at 10,20,30,40 pesos a pop. Makes no sense to me. One of my amigos that I went down there with only drinks water and was buying up to 6 or 7 bottles of 20 peso water. To each his own.

CaptainNemo

08-21-04, 02:06

Working in Latin culture is very different. 10-12 hours a day in the office is very common. They take 2 hours lunch. Having café for half hour. Nothing really gets done. Constant talking about nothing with 10 different co-workers is a very energy consuming activity. Then, at 5-6Pm, everyone starts to work very hard to finish the work for the day. If you can be in home by 8PM, it is a good day. At the end of day, you have very litter energy to do other things. Every day is a long, long day.

It will be hard to change the way they work. They will think that you are such hard-on. Well, it may not be a bad thing in BA.

Dickhead

08-23-04, 05:12

Shit I order 8 or 10 beers sometimes in Catto's and I still get pretty good prices. I'm sure I could beat 'em down to 100 if I wanted to but I don't really want to. I think 120-130 is fine. But 1 drink per boliche is good advice. It just isn't possible if Mickey Mouse is involved.

Undray

08-24-04, 17:06

Hey Guys,

Im not trying to make this out into a race thing but I want you guys to hear my point.

$90,000 dollars for a 450 sq ft apartment is crazy, but what is really crazy..is the landlord charging you more because you are a gringo. The perception is that since you are of the so-called "chosen color" you are rich and can afford it.

Thats the same stupid perception about blacks, when they try to buy a home in the USA. Often times decent blacks are turned down for a home loan, not because they can't afford it but because of people not wanting blacks to "distrub" their good neighborhoods.

I have to say that there are a good people in all races. It shouldnt matter if you are white and trying to buy a house in BA to monger in, or a educated black guy buying a house in Seattle.

Just my two cents

Un

Saint

08-25-04, 01:15

Be careful about converters. I bought about 5 at the Casa de Transformadors at Parana 220 since it was recommended on a few websites. I also bought some in the USA before I came and I already ruined a VCR, and Stereo/CD player because I guess they didn't work. According to the label it should have been strong enough to handle them.

Tonight a laser printer I brought with me from the USA connected from a transformer I purchased at the place above started smoking. The transformer was very very hot and had smoke coming from it. According to the label it should have been strong enough. All you electrical experts tell me if I'm wrong. The label on the HP printer says 110-127v 50/60 35 amp. I purchase a transformer there that would handle up to 100 va. Not sure what happened but I'm taking the transformer back there to ask. I'm sure it's my goof. It's all soft and started melting. The printer is probably ruined too. Bummer.

Capt Dave

08-25-04, 01:32

Saint

Laser printers need a LOT of amperage to keep the toner drum hot - you may have trouble finding a transformer that can handle one.

David

Ferolga777

08-25-04, 05:53

Thank for sharing your problems. It's good to remember that electricity in the third world is of lesser quality than in the first world.

Here's a little list of things to explore.

Industrial Twist-Lock® Protection
Variac® / Variable transformers
120 Volt Line Cord Filter-Suppressors
240 Volt Line Cord
Surge Protectors
Voltage Regulators
isolation Transformers
Wire-in Protection - 120 V <> 240 V
Extreme Duty Wire-in Protectors
Modem Protectors
Phone Protectors
Networks Protectors
Lightning Arresters
Transformers
AC Power Interrupters
Video Cable Protection Surveillance & Camera Protectors
Controllers Interference Filters
Rotary Converters
Voltage Converters - 120 V <> 240 V
Universal Power Plug Adapters
* Twist-Lock®

El Aleman

08-25-04, 06:39

Saint,
and everybody wanting to use US electrical appliances in Argentina:

The rating 100 VA is the POWER rating of that transformer, while the "100 .. 127 V" is the line VOLTAGE required by your laser printer.

The POWER requrement of laser printers is a lot higher than those 100 VA (= 100W, for most practical purposes). Out of a Laserjet 5 manual: 100 W standby, 290 W when printing. Nearly 3 times as much, no wonder that your poor transformer sent smoke signals...

some typical power ratings:

PC 200 W
Hair dryer 1500 W (!)
TV or standard (CRT) monitor 250 W
VCR, Stereo, etc. 100 .. 250 W
Notebook 50W
Small radio, small battery chargers (for cellphone etc) 20 W

etc.

So, to be on the safe side for nearly everything except stuff like hair dryers that create heat, buy a transformer rated at least 500 W. And never use any appliance built to make heat (hair dryers, heaters, cooktops, coffee makers etc.) with the transformer, buy that stuff, which usually is cheap compared to electronics, locally.

Also, a lot of equipment (at least that bought outside the US) has a switch to change the line voltage, normally 2 settings (100 .. 120 and 200 .. 240 V. All the HP stuff I have seen in my life has.). Argentina has 230 V, like most european countries.

El ingeniero electrico Alemán

Saint

08-25-04, 10:53

Damn. Looks like I have a lot to learn about electrical equipment. This is a good lesson to everyone. It seems I'm not the only one. I was just talking with Sterling V and he blew out something too. It seems it caused a blackout in his building. He used a transformer too but probably wasn't strong enough like me. I appreciate the advice. I'll see if I can find the stronger transformers.

Thanks!

Andres

08-25-04, 12:42

Transformers

I will repeat some of the info that El Aleman and Ferolga added.

The oldest and most reliable source for transformers is Alamtec, a store located a few steps from La Casa del Transformador (Paraná 200s-300s).

The nominal power assigned to the transformer (for instance, 80 W or 80 VA) cannot be matched with the regime power of the appliance, since appiances spend peak and start potencies that could up to double the steady regime power of the applicance. therefore, if you have an appliance which nominal power is 100VA, buy a transformer of 200VA or more.

However, it is better to buy a considerable excess of transforming power (as 4 times what you need) since you will be buying American appliances and would like to see them working before buying a new transformer.

In case of doubt, ask the salepeople. We Argentinians are used to constantly deal with foreing appliances, some coming from the US (110V) and some from Europe and Asia (220V), so people have to buy transformers often.

I also recommend surge protectors and line stabilizers (estabilizador de tensión). Their cost range from ar$70 to ar$200 and can help with deficiencies in the voltage of power supply and noises in your phone line. You can find them on Parana St. stores.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Saint

08-25-04, 13:12

Funny. All the transformers I bought at Casa de Transformadoras are made by Alamtec since they have the sticker. I specifically asked the salesman if the ones I was buying would be adequate for a VCR, Radio, etc. He said yes. I wouldn't think they would need such a powerful transformer. Anyway, I know dick about electricity. I better stick with other things. Thanks again to all who posted. You will help out a lot of guys.

UPDATE:

I bought a 500v transformer today at Casa de Transformadoras on Parana 220. It's significantly bigger and heavier and the cost was 79 pesos.

Saint

08-26-04, 20:23

Make sure to pay property taxes if you buy an apartment

I just wanted to post a brief note to those that are currently buying apartments and other property here. Some guy just bought some apartments and a lawyer was giving him inaccurate information. There is a local property tax but I found out that many locals don't pay it. It's not like in the USA where you get a bill in the mail. Here you are responsible to going to an office and almost telling them.."here is my payment". I talked to many locals that never pay this tax.

Anyway, if you buy an apartment here the important thing is that you pay your property tax bill every year. The bill will be determined in December of every year. As a foreign resident the tax is up to 0.75% of the value of the deed and it is due every year. You can’t sell your property unless you are up to date on this tax payment. The presentation of an affidavit and it’s payment will be required should you want to sell your apartment in the future. Only the AFIP office will approve the sale of your apartment if you're up to date on your payments.

I was told that any payments that are past the expiration will be charged an interest rate of 2% per month. I’m not sure if that is accurate or not but what I was told. The tax payment is due in April of each year. I don’t know if you actually will receive a bill so it’s important that you stay up to date on this and makes sure it gets paid on time.

The tax isn’t exactly 0.75% of the amount you pay. A rule of thumb is to take the value and then subtract 102,300 pesos and then multiply by 0.75% and that will be the tax. For example. If you bought a $125,000 us ($375,000 pesos) apartment. You would need to take 375,000 pesos subtract 102,300 (minimum presumptive) then take that amount and multiply 0.75% and that will be roughly your annual property tax bill. In this case around $682 US. Many locals never pay their tax bill but it will be essential that you do this if you plan on selling your apartment in the future with no problems. I guess the AFIP doesn't monitor transactions as much when it's locals vs. when foreigners are buying or especially selling.

When you DO go to sell your apartment there is 0% capital gains tax which is awesome. There is however a 1.5% property transfer tax but I was given ways to get around this. Use your best judgement if you should do it or not. It seems like many locals spend most of their time thinking of ways to avoid taxes. You can avoid this tax if you purchase another property within a certain amount of time. I think they told me 6 months. So if you have a declaration from your notory public (lawyer) saying you will buy another replacement property within 6 months you can avoid this 1.5% tax. I'm not sure how many people do this but I would venture to guess it's up there.

Hope this helps. (As Andres would say)

Ferolga777

08-26-04, 22:47

Saint

I am so glad that you moved down to BA. A straight shooter like you is a refreshing change from other websites where all you get is a picture of a rose garden without any mention of the work that it requires.

You've provided us with superb info.

Now, with the understanding that you are not an expert I still have to do my homework, if you couldn't buy in Recoleta in what other "barrios" would buy?

Would you go to Palermo Nuevo or to Palermo Viejo or somewhere else? Or somewhere else is not even an option for you?

Yours truly,
Ferolga

Saint

08-26-04, 23:09

Ferolga777,

Thanks. Make NO mistake. Living in Argentina or any country in South America is very very tough to make money. Honestly, I'm not some rich guy. Quite the contrary. I'm spending every penny I have(and even borrowing alot) to buy these apartments. It's an investment for me. The reason I'm only buying in Recoleta is because I plan to rent out these apartments and Recoleta is the best area to do that.

It's easy to live here if you have money but if not it could be very tough. I'm working my ass off. In fact, harder than in the USA. Today I was up since 6:45 AM and most mornings I'm in my office by 8:30 AM. Today I had meetings all day making sure I'm doing things the right way. So that entails meeting with lawyers, accountants, business partners, consultants, realtors, etc. Not fun.

There are some guys living here that are here on a quasi vacation. They go out every night and wake up at 2 PM or so. I CAN'T do that. I'm here to try to live forever. I got my CDI within two days of landing here, have my student visa already, bought one apartment and hopefully two by next week, visited over 25 apartments in my apartment search. Set up an office. I'm going to try to establish residency here and get a DNI after a year. All these things take time, money and alot of patience I guess.

I'm NO expert. Make that clear. I'm a rookie when it comes to BA. In fact, the only "expert" on BA on this entire WSG website I would say is Andres. Only someone that has lived here MANY years straight or was born here and lived here most of their lives, speaks the language fluently can be called an expert. However, I'll give you my opinions. I'd say Palermo is an excellent area. When my lease ends in a year I'd seriously consider moving there. It's becoming a hip area that is less stuffy then Recoleta. I really like Recoleta though and it's so comfortable in a lot of ways.

There are lots of cool areas like Palermo, Palermo Hollywood and Puerto Madero has a lot of growth but it's just too far for me to live. Barrio Norte I notice is growing alot. A lot of the new constructions are in Barrio Norte near Austria and Aguero. Belgrano has nice apartments but it's a ways out and feels like most of the people that live there are older.

Probably Barrio Norte would be a good option. I saw a great apartment today. It is on the top floor of an older building. Has a lot of charm. It was almost 1,000 sq. feet, 2 bedrooms, a huge balcony near Las Heras and Billinghurt. The asking price was $90,000 US. Compare that to a smaller one bedroom apartment in Recoleta close to the cemetary for the same price. You are paying for location here.

Try to use people that don't want to charge you a premium to the normal prices. Some lawyers were asking for 3.5% (you pay a % of the total value of the property). Everyone else is asking for 3%. You can get some down to 2.5% and then if you buy multiple properties you can probably get it down to 2.25%. Ask around. Get referrals. The 0.5% can save you money. Also, use people that have experience. So many people here I'm finding out really don't have a clue what they are talking about. If you can, ask people that went through the process. I'm posting all of this to help others so they don't have to go through the same hassles as I went through.

Things here are ass backwards with some things. So many examples I could give but I'll just give one. All real estate here is in US$. They never even quote pesos. Anyway, it's tough to open a bank account here. When you finally do they give you the option to open a US$ account. Ok. So you want to transfer US$ from your US bank into your US$ account in Argentina so you can buy your place. Ok. Guess what? They receive your US$ transfer then convert it into pesos. Of course they collect a spread on the market price of pesos/dollars. Then guess what. You have to convert it back to US$ in order to buy your apartment.

Factor in costs like this when buying here. If I had to do it over again I'd just bring as much money as I could in cash and save on commissions. You can bring in as much money as you want as long as you declare it. Just make sure you have a security guard waiting at the airport to pick you up with that much money. The other option is to use an exchange house. You wire money into their account and they charge you a set amount. Often times up to 1.5% of the total amount you are transferring. So if you buy a $100,000 apartment you must pay $1500. Not cheap. I found a trustworthy agency that will do it for 1%. It's cheaper than the banking option but you NEED to make sure you use someone trustworthy because you are literally transferring money into THEIR account and then at closing they bring you the CASH. Everything here is mostly done in cash. Most people don't have US accounts and they sure as hell don't want you transferring it into their BA accounts.

People have the big misconception that they can pick up property on the cheap in Buenos Aires. That is NOT true. There was a brief window of time where property prices came down due to some panicking but they are back up. I talked to one American today that bought during that time at a low price and dumped the same apartment less than 6 months later. Prices had already rebounded in that short amount of time. He made $40,000 US on that quick transaction. The time to buy was clearly two years ago during the financial crises. It's still an attractive investment though since real estate here is relatively stable, good history of foreign ownership with no title problems. The same can't be said for other countries in South America. That's for sure.

Also, make sure you visit the apartment several times once you are close to buying it. See it in the morning, see it in the afternoon and see it at night so you can compare the traffic noise, lighting in the apartment, etc. Location is key here. Near the cemetary in Recoleta is prime real estate but make sure it's desireable for a rental or to live there. Is it too close? Will you hear noise/music from the Recoleta bars all hours of the night and early morning? Keep all these things in mind. Also, your realtor will give you a spec sheet on the apartment that lists the age of the building, condition of the apartment, luminoscity scale that rates how bright the apartment is. All of these things are on a scale from 1-10. Keep in mind the OWNER is the one that fills that out so it's safe to say it's NOT very objective.

There is definitely a need for some sort of assistance with buying a property. That's another area I want to get into so PM me if you're seriously looking at buying a place. I'll do the best I can to help you. Also, one guy mentioned the possibility of leasing my apartment(s) long term and then using it when he is here and then having me rent it out like normal when he isn't here. Of course he would get all the money from the rentals minus a management and referral fee. He might pay for his entire lease and save on hotel bills. That's essentially what I did 2 years ago. I would also consider that too.

Good luck.

Andres

08-26-04, 23:24

Saint:

I guess that the property tax you are talking about is the "Impuesto Inmobiliario" (real estate tax) paid to the City Administration and that comes in the cleaning and lightning bimonthly bill from the GCBA (Government of the City of BA). I also guess that the value used to compute the 0.75% of the tax is tied to the fiscal value rather than the actual (market) value. In many cases, the fiscal value is a third or a quarter of the market value.

The concept of paying your due taxes before transfering property applies also to cars. What local people do? Many of them register to periodically-launched "waiving programs" (usually before elections) where people can reduce their fiscal debts significantly (maybe 50%). Then, they sell.

Ferolga:

There is not such thing as Palermo Nuevo, as far as I know.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Ferolga777

08-26-04, 23:36

Saint
Andres

Thank you for the continued sharing of information. I stand corrected on a number of issues.

Cheerio,
Ferolga

Saint

08-26-04, 23:39

Hmm. They told me it was separate tax from the "Impuesto Inmobiliario". As I understand it the Impuesto Inmobiliario is billed like you said bimonthly. I thought they told me this was seperate from that tax. They called it the "personal property tax". And you are correct. They told me that the reason most people's taxes are so low is because they are using historically low fiscal values. My lawyer said this could all change in a few years though. I'm not sure what will happen once you buy a property and they see the market value. I asked to see the actual bills of the "Impuesto Inmobiliario" on one of the apartments I bought. Believe it or not it's less than $100 US per year. That's because the building is 50 years old and they are using historically low fiscal values. I don't know if that will change once they see the papers showing what I paid for it. I hope not.

When you go to look at apartments ask to see copies of the bills so you can see what they are actually paying. Same thing goes for the monthly condo fees. I'm still learning as I go along. I've only been here two weeks and it feels like two months.

At the end of each full week I'll give my high/low point of the week as my amigo, Starfe requested. My high point of this week was finding out my laser printer still works after the transformer I bought melted and was smoking. I thought it would be ruined. My low point was when the seller of this apartment refused to lower their asking price since they are in no hurry to sell. Oh well.

Ferolga777

08-27-04, 01:04

I swear to God.

WSG shouldn't stand for such a limited thing as "World Sex Guide"

It should stand for "World Social Gathering"

We got some great people here.

Ferolga

Saint

08-27-04, 12:05

Today's real estate lesson for the day.

There are different ways to complete a transaction once you come to an agreement on the price on a house or apartment.

First, you would put down some money and place an offer. Generally around $1,000 US. It shows that you are seriously interested in the property. It stays with your realtor and if the offer is rejected and you can't come to an agreement on price then they return it to you. It's preferred that it's cash but you could write a check with some companies.

If you come to an agreement on price you will put down a "binder". The binder is usually around 5% of the total value. If you change your mind and back out of the deal the owner can keep your binder. If the owner backs out they must double the "binder" so you would get back your 5% plus another 5%. There might be what's called a "boleto" that happens a week or so after your offer is accepted. You sign the "boleto" and then 30% of the total price will be due to the owner. You must also pay your realtor's commission (3%) at this time.

If you do the "boleto" option, they will assign a date for the final signing of the contract ("escritura"). The remaining 70% will be due at this time and you must also pay your lawyer (notory public) fee. The fee is usually close to 3% of the total value of your property. You need to be there personally for the signing or have a power of attorney so he/she can do it for you.

Many times now the "boleto" is skipped and you go straight to "Escritura" which is the final signing of the contract and title deed transfer which usually happens between 30-50 days.

Also, something else interesting is that you don't pay a tax on the property if it's your first property but if you buy more than one you pay a 2.5% "stamp tax" on it. Usually this is split between the buyer/seller but sometimes the seller can refuse to pay their portion of it and you are stuck paying the entire amount.

Suerte.

HappyGoLucky

08-27-04, 19:34

Saint,
Great reporting on real estate transactions!

A while back the editor of "International Living" magazine bought an old French style apt. in B.A. (about 1.5 years ago) and wrote a short article about the process. She said she and her husband brought $200,000 in cash with them in a suitcase!! I don't have the stomach for that!

However, everytime I'm in B.A., I see branches of Citibank and wonder if one had an account Stateside with Citibank if one could draw U.S. dollars out of an Argentina branch (from their U.S. Citbank account). It'd be safer than carrying dollars on airplanes and maybe one could avoid transfer fees. Just a thought... I enjoy reading your posts amigo and hope to buy you a cerveza one day. Suerte. -Hap

Saint

08-27-04, 20:54

HappyGoLucky,

I remember reading that article too. I remember thinking how crazy they were but now I think it's probably smart of them.

Unfortunately there is no way around the getting screwed in transfer fees. Even if you have an account in the USA or Europe at Citibank or HSBC you still have to convert it into pesos then back into dollars. It's some national law here. The cheapest method is this guy my partner has used for years and is a family friend. You can wire money into his account and he brings the cash to you. If it's a big amount he will only charge around 1%.

The reason I'm posting is to help others. There is simply no other way to avoid transfer fees unless you bring the money in cash. It's amazing to think about six figure deals going down and cash always being involved. That's why closing is usually always at a bank.

Ferolga777

08-27-04, 21:07

I suppose that for large amounts of cash one could hire a reputable security firm. Or would that be counterproductive?

Ferolga

Saint

08-28-04, 19:20

I'll post very simple things in this section too from time to time that I think will be helpful for guys even on extended vacation. I found a good place today to get a haircut. I'm sure there might be cheaper places but this place was really good and it's close to my apartment.

It's called Estudio Recoleta and it's on the corner of Posades and Rodriguez Pena in Recoleta across from the Fendi store. Ask for a guy named Felix. He is really good. It's a nice salon and they do manicures and massages too upstairs. A haircut was 15 pesos ($5 us) plus any tip you want to give. Felix is really good.

Mojokpr

08-29-04, 04:47

Saint,

I just wanted to be sure, you mentioned no capital gains and 1.5% transfer tax. Have you confirmed this? This is HUGE compared to paying Fed and State (California) capital gains, depreciation recap, etc. like here in the US. This is the one thing I have wondered about but haven't asked around yet, and it's really the one last isue I was concerned about.

Thanks in advance

Saint

08-30-04, 19:23

Mojo,

I'm not sure what you mean by "confirmed". I was given this information from a lawyer and an accountant as well but who knows here. You can ask 10 different lawyers/accountants and you might get 10 different answers. My realtor has been around 35 years and they confirmed it. That is good enough for me.

Also, hopefully I don't make it sound like the real estate market here is just full of great deals. As I mentioned before, real estate is expensive here when you consider the price per square foot. Especially in posh areas like Recoleta. Keep in mind I've been watching the real estate market for the past 2.5 years. I've leased some apartments before buying and that has helped quite a bit. I just got my 2nd apartment today and it's very very nice in an awesome location. One apartment will probably be available in a month and the other in mid-October. I'll keep you all posted when they are ready. I truly believe they are going to be better than a hotel and most of the other apartments on the market now.

Good luck,

Saint

P.S. It was bittersweet to go back and find that I posted the below comments on 5/15/2002:

"You were 100% correct about the post Argentina depression once leaving. I've only been gone one full day and I can't seem to concentrate on much. I find myself looking out of my office window wishing I was back in Buenos Aires.

I know it sounds crazy but I'm seriously thinking about just selling my house, car and major personal belongings and just buying an apartment down there. I would be leaving a great job and a good life here in the USA. As Larry mentioned, it's simply not just the girls. It's the whole atmosphere down there. I can see myself just moving down there taking Spanish lessons a few months and becoming fluent.

Does anyone know the property rights down there? Can Americans own property there? The most difficult thing would be finding a job in a city where there is 25%+ unemployment. Oh well, it's probably just a pipe dream but I still can picture myself a resident there. "

El Aleman

08-31-04, 15:09

Hi,

Putting large amounts of cash on the table seems to be a quite normal way to do things in Argentina - I heard the same story from my lawyer, who told me that during real estate transactions he has seen suitcases full of $$$ more than once.

When I was transferring money for an investment, I used my attorney's account. I cannot say anything about the "U$S - Peso - back and forth" issue, as in that case pesos were needed anyway, but I can (and will) find out more about it from Argentinian business freinds who get a lot of currency from an export business.

I will keep you posted..

El Alemán

Saint

08-31-04, 20:43

I've researched this extensively and as I originally posted, short of bringing a suitcase full of cash there is NO way to avoid paying out fees. There is a big demand for this. In fact, I'm talking to a guy about getting into this business too. Most places charge about 1.25 - 1.5%. This is definitely a business where a TRUSTED person is needed. Anyway, I'm checking into it.

More later. Another super busy day. To make things worse I think one of the girls I have been playing kissy face with gave me a cold. You know it's a sad day in BA when a girl calls you wanting to come over and you tell her you are too tired. Oh well.

Mojokpr

09-01-04, 03:38

Saint,

Thanks for your response, I understand that you can get a lot fo different answers, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't just a rumor. I've watched the market there for a while myself, was there in '02 but it was my first time there so I didn't do anything.

I know the values have gone up, I still think BA and Argentina has lots of longer-term potential, and the values really can't go too much further down over a long-term. Where I live in California things are so f'ng inflated, it's really sick to buy something here.

I like your updates and hope you can keep us informed on the various subjects you've discussed and whatever else comes up in your adventure. (just don't go nibu on us) Also any more info on the tax situation there (eg. how rental income is taxed, write-offs, etc) is appreciated, too.

I have found that this board is really more comprehensive that some may think. Although I am not a monger of great merit, I do like to enjoy the nightlife when I'm traveling and have utiized the info on this board for that end.

I also noticed there is a "man on the ground" thing here where we can now more about what's going on somewhere than the news will tell you. You have direct contacts here for many locations for questions about a variety of subjects beyond mongering.

Thanks again, and next time I'm in town, I'll buy the beers.

Saint

09-01-04, 13:58

Something very valuable to get once you move here is a safe deposit box in a reputable bank. At first they told me I couldn't get one as a foreigner without a DNI but I kept asking and finally I got one. The cost is about 300 pesos per year for a medium sized box. You are the only one with the key so your contents are safe. Even if you have a home safe it's advisable to get a box in a bank for very important documents and items. They bill you every 3 months and in my case, they will just debit my peso account. You can probably get one at Citibank and HSBC providing you open a bank account there.

When you do open a bank account, I'd suggest you open a US Dollar account AND a peso account. You'll find here that many stores for high ticket items don't accept US credit cards so the options are paying with cash or a debit card tied to a peso account. Having a bank account is essential here if you plan on living here long term. It will be more of a convenience thing than anything. You'll get an ATM debit card that you can access your $$$ and your pesos.

Ferolga777

09-01-04, 15:02

Saint

What about any concerns that the government will turn your dollars into pesos. I have read that the way the wealthy circumvent these pesification moves is by keeping account abroad.

Maybe, it's not a concern now. But you did say that you want to do this long term. Argentina has a long and proud history of mismanagement. [The US does, too. But we 've been able to afford it.]

Hey, did you know that the guy who played Zorro in the black and white Disney t.v. series, who also played the father in Lost In SPace, that guy. What's his name? Oh, yeah! Guy Williams, moved to Buenos Aires and spent the last years of his life in Recoleta. That was a good Zorro!!

Cheerio.
Ferolga

Saint

09-01-04, 19:50

Ferolga,

I'm not saying to convert all of your savings into your dollar account. That would be foolish. With the technology available it's easy to keep the bulk of your money in USA/European banks. Still, a US$ account here is helpful if you will be doing financial transactions on a recurrent basis. Also, you can draw US$ from some ATM machines. My bank told me after 6 months I can probably get a DNI here and then I can open a checking account too.

As I posted a long time ago, it's good to establish a relationship with a local bank no matter where you live. Most ATM transactions from your USA bank usually involves some type of fee. I got my USA bank to waive the ATM withdrawal fees on the USA side but sometimes there is one on the foreign side.

No, I'm not worried that the government will turn US$ into pesos. That has already been done. The currency is free floating and it isn't 1:1 like it was before. That is usually when people have problems. A lot of things are different now. Is it possible? Maybe, but not probable IMHO.

Also, be VERY careful with some ATM machines. I noticed some like Bank of Boston and a few others flash a "your rate will only be 2.85" for this transaction. I have noticed this in two ATM machines and just went to another. The bank is trying to make a big spread on your transaction. I saw the 2.85 warning when the rate here was 3.02. Again, it's not going to bankrupt you but all these fees can add up. Keep this in mind if you live here. I'm a poor student now so I gotta watch my pesos. Good luck.

Saint

09-02-04, 08:20

Argentina's version of Ebay

http://www.mercadolibre.com.ar/

Seems to work pretty good. No where near the selection of Ebay but something that might be helpful to buy/sell if you live here. I tested it out and bought something and the seller contacted me immediately and offered to meet me somewhere or bring it to my house. Not bad.

Keeping up with the posting of my high point/ low point of the week. This is my 3rd full week. High point was negotiating the price and signing the papers for my 2nd apartment and starting my Spanish classes and getting bumped up a level. Low point was catching a really bad cold. I NEVER get sick and I've been coughing, sneezing, and had a runny nose the past few days. I hope I can shake this soon. The viruses must be alot stronger down here. Everyone seems sick in my office and in this town right now.

Saint

09-03-04, 22:00

I walked around Palermo for a few hours today. I still have a cold but didn't want to waste the day. Fridays are nice because I don't have my Spanish class. I worked all morning then went looking for some furniture. Palermo Viejo/Hollywood has alot of nice stores for furniture, lighting, etc. The one annoying thing in all of these stores is there are no prices on any of the furniture. I think for the most part they are honest but really there is nothing stopping anyone from giving you an inflated price on anything. All the stores I went to the employees were nice and a few of the employees spoke English at some of the stores which was surprising.

There is a great detailed map called SaberADondeIr (info@saberadondeir.com.ar----www.saberadondeir.com.ar) It's a blue map that has a map of all the furniture and design stores in the area. Some are nice. Some are crap. I still like the furniture at Buenos Aires Design better than most of these stores. The furniture is ALOT more expensive there but the style I found is better and just generally more upscale. The reason much of the furniture there is more expensive is because it is from Europe. (Also being located in the best part of town causes them to overprice on many items. Some items are rip offs but some items I simply can't find anywhere else with the same quality and comfort).

Some of the best and most comfortable couches I tested were Italian made. So the price tag is upwards of 4500 pesos ($1500 US) even with sale prices going on this week. Compare that to furniture made here in Argentina at around 2500 pesos ($835 US) for an upscale couch. Some of the Argentinean stuff looks awesome as they certainly have a flair for design but it just isn't that comfortable compared to the European stuff, IMHO.

Something you'll find interesting if you go to buy a used apartment is the owner traditionally takes everything with them. The air conditioners, the fridge, even all the lights! Lighting is fairly expensive here for the really nice stuff because it's imported. One apartment I went to had to be seen during the day only because the owner already moved into his new place and took out all the lights! There were only holes in the ceiling where the lights WERE. It's funny if you think about it.

I walked a few hours around the neighborhoods in Palermo and Palermo Hollywood. I still prefer Recoleta and I suspect I'll always live in Recoleta or close to it. I really like the area, it's safe and I like all the cafes, bakeries, restaurants and shops. There is this bakery next door to my building. I go there every single day. They make fresh pastries, breads, salads and sandwiches. I can't resist not stopping in after I get home from work. Where else can you get an awesome chicken caeser salad for 4 pesos ($1.35)!

Several guys that were on the fence about buying property here have emailed me telling me they will probably buy now thanks to my detailed posts. I'm happy to help in any way. Buenos Aires is a great city and I truly believe property rates in desireable areas will continue to go up over the next several years. People that "panic sold" two years ago are regretting it and even the people that bought pre-devaluation are getting much more for their apartment now then what they paid for it. The owner of one of the apartments I bought purchased about 3.5 years ago and he almost panic sold 2 years ago but simply by waiting he is getting much more than what he paid.

The fact of the matter is that BA is a world class city and it always will be. There is something to be said for that. And Recoleta will always be Recoleta. As the locals say, "Recoleta es un otro mundo..." I tend to agree with them.

Cheers!

Saint

09-05-04, 19:59

Unfortunately I was feeling under the weather last night so missed the Mansion party but that's ok. I had an amiga come over to console me. Today I felt a little better so I decided to go to Unicenter. I went here a few times last year. It's in the provincia in an area called Martinez. It's a huge shopping mall with plenty of nice stores.

There was a Garbarino store there so I decided to go ahead and get some things for my apartments. Garbarino (http://www.garbarino.com.ar/ is an electronics store that sells pretty much any type of electronics you need. I needed alot of things so I bought 2 Panasonic TV's & DVD players, 2 "split" air-conditioners, 2 refrigerators, 2 microwaves and a few more things. Electronics here are more expensive with the import taxes and the 21% IVA tax. Be forewarned that big transactions like this can take time if you are using a US credit card. The problem is that even if you have the credit limit available, most US banks will block the charges. I called my bank yesterday telling them I would be here and charging high $ amount and they still blocked the charge. Next, I tried using my local debit card but there is a per day limit of what you can spend. Only like 3000 pesos a day. My next step was to try to use a Paypal.com debit card which has always worked wherever I have gone in the world. I have two. They let you spend $3,000 US per day so with the two cards and some cash I was fine. I had to wait a long time with the guy trying to figure out the credit card authorization for the credit card and then I just told him to forget it and paid with the Paypal.com debit card and cash.

Last year, one time I had a problem with the taxi there at the mall that didn't want to drive all the way to Recoleta. I finally convinced one to bring me home but this time I just had the taxi driver wait. The fare from Recoleta to Unicenter is about 20 pesos each way to give you an idea on the distance. I asked the driver how much he would charge to wait 3 hours. He said 25 pesos. I countered with 15 pesos and he quicky accepted. He parked in a designated space and waited for me.

If you have decent Spanish abilities, Unicenter is a place where you might think about getting some phone numbers from non-pro girls. Many of the girls are with their families or their boyfriends but it was also crowded with girls in groups. I got a phone number from a cute girl that I asked directions to. The people here are so damn friendly. I asked for directions to a store that I couldn't remember the name of and the girl brought me to the store! The mall was packed today since it's Sunday and most people have off.

Keep in mind though that Buenos Aires isn't like some cities in South America like Colombia where a girl will especially be interested in you just because you're a foreigner. In countries like Colombia you're a big novelty. I don't find that to be the case here. You still have to have some "game" to do well with the hottie non-pro scene.

Anyway, Unicenter is a good diversion if you have some time to kill on the weekend and you're feeling adventurous. There are lots of stores here and you'll definitely be able to find something here. Good luck.

Saint

Saint

09-06-04, 20:00

Be careful everywhere..Even in Recoleta

Yesterday there was some comotion early in the morning near my apartment. I didn't know what it was until today when I read the paper. I'm including a link:

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2004/09/06/policiales/g-04001.htm

These kids don't sound like the sharpest knives in the drawer but still. Crime of this type is rare in Recoleta. Especially this part of Recoleta. Police don't put up with crime in this area if you can't tell by the article. The kids had guns and one of them was killed by the police.

This is a good wake up call that violence can happen anywhere here. You get a sense of security in Recoleta because of all the cops on the street and all the women walking around in fur coats and jewelry. Scarey to read this story and even scarier it happened one block from my apartment. Stay safe out there.

P.S. A good website to translate if you didn't know is

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

You can just plug in the URL and it does a decent job of translating.

Saint

09-08-04, 09:57

Property Buying Woes

Some guys are emailing me indicating they are interested in buying properties down here. Just make sure you understand it's not like buying property in the USA. As I mentioned before, things can be very ass backwards here. Take my situation of what happened yesterday. I had a hectic day of working, meetings, school, etc. Then I get a phone call from my realtor. I was supposed to sign the "boleto" (where I put down 30% for my apartment) this morning. At the '11th hour' it seems the seller's realtor didn't realize the seller couldn't sell his apartment without his parking space. Some apartments have a parking space but they usually sell for a high premium in Recoleta and most other nice areas because parking is limited.

The buyer planned on keeping the space and renting it out since they can get up to 150 pesos per month. The problem was in the building bylaws it prohibited selling the apartment without the parking space. Usually they give you the option to buy it but it's not required. The first thing his realtor should have done was check the bylaws of the building and his title deed. What a major screw up!! Anyway, my options are to buy the parking spot (at an asking price of $10,000 US) or we can try to do some kind of legal maneuvering with paper work. I don't want/need the parking space for that price.

The signing of that "boleto" is off pending the outcome of this screw up. The other apartment is fine though. This is a good reason why you MUST have a competent realtor and a good lawyer. Also, don't think that it's so easy to solve all these things if you are not here to manage them and stay on top of them. This seller is pissed at his realtor. This is the 2nd incident he had with them. The first was when they lied to him about my offer that I made. The way some business is done here is amazing shady so be careful and use TRUSTED people with a good reputation. Sometimes trying to save a few dollars can cause you to lose a lot of money.

So far, all the people I've been dealing with have been extremely above board. PM me if you need a referral to a good lawyer or real estate agent.
------------------------------------------------------

Mojo,

I didn't see your last post because you are a regular member and your posting was delayed. As far as income tax rates on your property rentals, I guess unless you are declaring it on your US tax return... the taxes are 0%. Many locals rent out their properties and as you can imagine they don't declare a penny of it. A better idea is to maybe set up a US corporation where you run your property rental through it. That way you can write off things like trips down to BA so your tax exposure is very minimal. Please keep in mind I'm not an accountant or lawyer nor do I pretend to be. Please consult a professional on this matter.

I do plan on running a property management company and managing properties for Americans/Europeans that are buying properties. I'll have my apartment websites up soon (www.apartmentsba.com and www.rentinba.com and www.buyinba.com) They aren't up yet but I'm having a professional webpage designer create them now. I'll also have a website up to match buyer's and seller's of apartments so if you do buy an apartment and want to try to sell it for a profit you can do it for a lot cheaper than paying a realtor 3% commission. Outrageous! I plan on getting a lot more involved in real estate transactions here. I agree with you that property values in nice areas will continue to go up.

Buenos Aires might get more expensive but it will NEVER go back to the 1:1 dream they had here for 10 years. Good luck.

P.S. Remember that my posts here are only MY opinion. As I always posted in the past. I'm just a normal guy like all of you. I'm just posting on my experiences. People should post their opinions and their experiences too. It's ironic if you go back to the very first post and Otto Graham is talking about how renting/leasing is the better option vs. buying. I don't find that to be the case if you are living here. We can agree to disagree though.

HappyGoLucky

09-08-04, 23:52

Saint,
I always enjoy reading the "Living" section (better than International Living!)
Hey, maybe you should write for Kathleen Peddicord.... She claims to pay well!?
Just kidding...

Anyway, have you investigated buying properties from auctions, e.g. bank repos? I'm told there are quite a few in B.A., but I'm also told the Mafia controls most of them (fixed pricing, bidding, etc.) However, I've also heard that every once in a while a great deal can be had. Just a thought- you're the pro. I damn near bought an island cabana in Tigre last February; I love crusing the waterways, hanging out on the beaches, and eating in the funky restaurants along the water. Can't wait til summer!
Suerte,
-Hap

Saint

09-09-04, 01:33

HappyGoLucky,

I actually enjoy writing and always have. I also enjoy helping people in any way I can if you couldn't already tell from my posts over the years. I'm on several message boards (public and private) and I think WSG is my favorite for the simple fact that it reaches people all over the world and it's free. It's amazing how many times I've been somewhere around the world and someone will tell me about something they read from "Saint". It's pretty funny sometimes.

Anyway, where are you reading about "bank repos" ?? As far as I know, almost NO property here is financed. 100% cash transactions for the most part. I believe they used to have financing and maybe those repos are a result of those old loans but I've never heard of any and quite frankly I wouldn't be interested in the headache of dealing with property in that situation. Buying an 'untarnished' property is enough work. (Maybe Andres can chime in here on the repos you are talking about). My advice is to stick with legitimate listings and to use a trustworthy real estate agent and lawyer.

I've met a lot of foreigners here that have owned property for many years with no problems whatsoever. The key thing they all have in common is they used a very good notory public (lawyer). If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is. Property rates in Recoleta, as I posted before is around $1200 - $1600+ per sq. meter. for a quality property in a good area. (For reference 1 sq. meter = 10.76 sq. feet so a decent sized apartment of 60 sq. meters or 645 sq. feet is around $72,000 US to $96,000 US depending on the quality and location of the property) ---- NOT CHEAP. Then add on the 3% realtor's commission + 21% VAT tax on it and 3% lawyer's fee and some other misc. expenses.

Honestly, I'm only looking at buying property in prime areas and there are not too many "great deals" in Recoleta. As I previously posted, the bargain hunting days are over. I'm buying for rentals and possibly to live in one of them someday so Recoleta is key for me. Also, keep in mind... I'm NO pro on this or any other subject matter on Buenos Aires. I'm new at the real estate game here. Granted, I'm learning quite a lot every day but still a rookie.

I really believe that most guys are ordinary guys, that have ordinary experiences, with ordinary jobs that make ordinary money. I think if you really want to be extraordinary, you have to do things that are not ordinary in your life. Some of my experiences the past several years have really opened my eyes to what the world, and life in general has to offer. I don't want to live an ordinary life and have ordinary experiences.

Making a normal life here won't be easy but I think I can make it. No matter what, I know I won't regret making this move and having these experiences. Buenos Aires as a tourist and BA as a resident are entirely different things.

Today I signed the "boleto" on one of my apartments. It's totally surreal to see how things work here. A guy basically shows up with a suitcase full of cash. You pay the owner of the apartment in cash. They were so paranoid and freaked out. I don't think they ever sold property before. They kept wanting to count the money, recount it, then they even asked one of the bank employees to come to the private room and make sure all the bills were real. Then when they were leaving the bank they (wife, husband, wife's father) all divided the money up and were hiding it on various parts of their body. Some in their shoes, shirt pockets, pants, etc. I've never seen anything like that in my life! I suggested the next meeting where I pay the rest, we do it at their bank so they would feel more comfortable.

The comforting thing is the company I use for the money transfer has been doing business with my partner for 10 years and she has never had problems with them. I was chatting with the big guy that delivers the money since I've used him a few times now. He was formally a Captain in the police department here so I doubt anyone will be bothering him. It's a good service if you need to buy/sell dollars or pesos as their rate is usually better than the casa de cambios. They deliver the money to your apartment/hotel. Probably best to use them if you are doing at least a few hundred dollars though.

Anyway, I just got done with a business meeting over dinner. Where else in the world do you have dinner at midnight??! Ha, ha. Some guy (non-WSG guy) just bought 4 apartments and I'll be listing them soon on my webpage. They are near Marcos's apartments in a brand new building. The amazing thing is he has plans to buy about 6 more. His original plan was to buy the entire building full of apartments.

So far, everyday has been quite an adventure here. I'm finding my days extremely busy to the point where when girls I met are calling to come over I'm just too damn tired. I know it's damn sad......

Andres

09-09-04, 11:56

There are auctions run by Banco Ciudad de Buenos Aires (Suipacha between Viamonte and Tucumán, a few blocks from the Triangle), but as HappyGoLucky points out, the scene is controlled by a maffia. If you participate in the auctions, people may intimidate you (I don't think that they bother 100% of the bidders, just some of them to keep the myth alive).

I perfectly understand the paranoia of the sellers. They were carrying their life savings, the ones that will allow them buy a smaller apartment, set up their dreamed business or back up their retirement. If they get robbed, bye-bye their future. In fact, you will see similar scenarios for every apartment you buy from owners (not from agencies).

Respect to owning a cabaña in Tigre, I recommend that you do so only if you plan to visit it very often, since these places get robbed (happened to me). My family owned one, and it required significant expenditures (motor boat parking, motor boat title, housekeeper for mownlawning, etc). However, if you can afford it, it's a paradise.

Hope this helps,

Andres

HappyGoLucky

09-09-04, 22:30

Andres & Saint,
What I've heard about the auctions is sketchy at best but my understanding is that when the mafia is involved, they (the mob) predetermine a purchase price with the seller/auctioneer ahead of the auction and the auction itself is just a sham, i.e. they (the mob) will outbid you no matter what when in reality they (the mob) will only pay the pre-agreed price after the auction. I guess the auction is only held to maintain the appearance of legitimacy. That said, however, not all auctions are fixed and I'm told that people lose their properties for all sorts of reasons, e.g. failure to pay building expenses (kind of like HOA fees) is a common reason, so there may be some good opportunities out there.

Anyway, you guys always provide a wealth of information and are a primary reason why this board is so successful! I'm looking forward to seeing the new apartments on Saint's website!

BTW Saint, your story about suitcases stuffed with cash and sellers stuffing their pockets with money is indeed surreal, particulary since I've witnessed people robbed on the street in B.A. and my last Spanish teacher was robbed by a cab driver! Well, life is often surreal and come what may, I don't think your life in B.A. will ever qualify as "normal". Even in your downtimes, you know in the back of your mind that it ain't sex-prison baby...

Saint

09-10-04, 16:48

I'm happy to announce that I reached an agreement with the owner of the 2nd apartment I'm going to buy. Looks like I'll own an apartment with a secured parking space, which I really wasn't looking for but I think will be attractive when I go to sell the apartment. It will also be nice for US Embassey employees and other expats that live here and have cars.

It might be interesting to note that they DO have financing here for real estate if you are deemed credit worthy. The owner of one of the apartments I am buying is a younger dude (upper 30's) and a very educated guy that I would guess makes decent money. He told me that he could get a mortgage with a 9% interest rate. I doubt US or other foreigners can tap into the financing market here to buy property though.

I agree with you HappyGoLucky that life here will be interesting but I disagree that it won't be normal. I want as normal a life as possible here. Like I said before, I didn't move down here for the girls. I really enjoy everything else the city has to offer. I rarely go to the clubs now and when I do it's usually with friends that are in town. I never viewed the US as a "sex prison" like so many guys do. I really believe the US has some amazing and great girls.

Honestly, if you look at really any metropolitan city in the world, a really quality, classy, intelligent, beautiful girl will be attracted to a guy that treats them well, works hard and has his sh*t together. I do think there are real benefits to the pay2play scene but I don't dare confuse reality with the P2P fantasy world. IMHO, no matter where you go in the world... girls are looking for the same qualities in a man.

Lennox

09-10-04, 21:15

Saw Robert Duvall interviewed on 60 minutes the other night. He lives in Buenos Aires, and he mentioned Blacks!

“This is Black’s. This is supposed to be the best, classiest house of ill repute in the world. You got the beautiful women from Paraguay, Peru, all over the place,” says Duvall, taking Rose on a tour of his favorite city.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/06/60II/main591671.shtml

Saint

09-11-04, 19:38

Living expenses for one month living in Buenos Aires

I'm surprised at the level of interest and emails I have received from some guys thinking about making a similar move to Buenos Aires in the future. I have tracked all personal expendatures via Quicken for the past 9 years. It has been no different with living in Buenos Aires. I log every peso I spend so I can see how close I'm sticking to my budget. This is the first time I have had to live on a budget in my life. To be honest... it sucks!

Still, I don't deny myself any things that I really want or need. The list below is in pesos (and $US equivalent). I hope the information can help some of you in your plans to move here. Keep in mind that your budget could greatly differ from mine.

Also, keep in mind I had ALOT of expenses connected with setting up my businesses (office and apartments). The list below does not include ANY business expenses. It only includes everyday living expense type stuff.

Rent (includes all utilities, cable, high-speed internet, and includes a maid to come in one time per week) : 1,950 pesos ($650 US)

Additional maid cleaning services when I had her come more: 70 pesos ($24)

Dining (restaurants and snacks): 1079 pesos ($360) -- This is eating pretty well. I go out when some friends are in town to nicer places. Other than that I still have a good meal that usually consists of steak/chicken/fish, vegetables, dessert and drink. I also drink at least a bottle of Gatorade a day which adds up to about $27 a month of the $360.

Medical insurance (last month in USA but soon will go to BA medical insurance and the cost will be cut to $85 US per month): $250 US -- One of the best plans can be found at : http://www.osde.com.ar/Osde_Binario/default.asp?idioma=ingles I'm under 35 years old so I qualify for their "joven" plan. Here are the 3 different packages they offer. The best I can tell from talking to various people, this health insurance is much better than US medical insurance type plans.

Plan 2-210: $153.33
Plan 2-310: $200.50
Plan 2-410: $265.82

You can email them at: comercial@osde.com.ar for a direct quote based on your age.

Education: 400 pesos ($134)

"Entertainment" which includes entrance fees, drinks, sessions, taking girls out to dinner, going to movies, entrance fees to normal clubs. Basically anything that involves entertainment. 1020 pesos ($401 US) [I budgeted $300 US so I went over by $101 US] -- Keep in mind I only did 3 paid sessions and none of them were expensive club girls.

Groceries from grocery store (I deciding not to include this with "Dining category"-- It also includes things like soap, razors, etc.): 485 pesos ($162 US) - I mainly just go out to eat.

Haircut: 25 pesos with tip ($8 US)

"Apartment expense" (I anticipate this will be gone in future months since it was just stuff like converters and transformers): 395 pesos ($132 US)

Pharmacy Expenses: (medicine when I had a cold and also vitamins): 53 pesos ($18)

Taxi's (I walk quite frequently but I took many taxis for various trips where walking isn't practical. I budgeted 450 pesos a month-$150 US). I spent: 503 pesos ($167) Keep in mind I go to work in the morning, tons of meetings for apartment stuff, go to school daily, go back to work, go around town shopping for furniture, etc.

Cellphone credits: 125 pesos ($42 US)

Internet cafe: ( I never use since I have high speed in my office and my apartment but one time I had to check email) 3 pesos ($1)

Dry cleaning: 65 pesos ($22)

Vonage internet phone: $35 US

Grand total 7,218 pesos $2,406 US

I anticipate getting this number down by purchasing medical insurance here, taking less taxis, not having to buy converters/transformers, eating out less in restaurants, and getting my entertainment expense down to $250 US or so. I have no shortage of things to do with girls that don't charge money but still have to take them out to eat and things like that just like anywhere else in the world.

I'm trying to get my expenses down to under $1,900 US per month (5,700 pesos). I'm spending considerably higher to live in a nice part of Recoleta but I can't live in a bad area or a shitty apartment. The depressing thing is so far I haven't made one penny living here. Just spending and not making money but that should change after next month once I get my apartments up and running and also once the travel agency gets going but realistically it will be at least a year before there is any real income.

In realtiy, BA is not such a cheap place to live compared to other countries in South America. You could probably live in Colombia for a fraction of what it costs to live here. The thing I like the most is the quality of life here, the safety and the beautiful city.

I would love to read a budget of other guys living here full-time like Andres, Dickhead, Jackson or Captain Dave. I'm not sure if they track expenses as religiously as I do but I'm sure they can ballpark it.

Saint

Dickhead

09-11-04, 19:59

I log every peso I spend also. Of course Saint and I have somewhat different ideas on how to spend money and that is an understatement. Here is my budget for those who are interested. Basically my take home pay is a shade over $1500 US a month and I am assuming a 2.9 exchange rate, so the budget is 4464 pesos.

Rent 975 (the rent is 900 but I am amortizing the 900 commission over the 12 months of the lease plus option)
Groceries 430 (I am not spending anywhere close to that no matter how hard I try)
Dining Out 150 (I based that on one breakfast, one lunch and one dinner a week but I have yet to eat breakfast out)
Booze 149 (3 liters of beer a day at 1.65 a liter)
Drinks Out 200 (I am spending more and need to cut down)
Hookers 1720 (400 a week and figure 2 club girls @ 125-150 and 2 apartment girls @ 50 or one @ 100); I also include chica drinks and club covers here, plus cabs home if I wouldn't have taken one if I hadn't had the hooker.
Tutor 129 (30 a week for two hours once a week; haven't started this yet)
Health insurance 125 (mine's good to the end of the month but I need to start researching this)
Transportation 72 (round trip bus or Subte every day plus 4 boat trips to Colonia per year; I don't take the bus every day so I have some left for the occasional cab)
Clothes 75 (haven't bothered to buy any yet)
Internet and Cable TV 145 (seems like I could do better)
Newspapers 39 (every day except Sunday and I am only buying it about 2-3 days a week so I am under budget here)
Phone 45
Water 12
Gas 12
Electric 15
Laundry 47 (2 loads a week at 5.50 a load)
Toiletries 15 (mostly condoms and ibuprofen)
Haircut 3 (6 pesos every two months)
Gym 45
Other 60 (mostly shit I forget to keep track of)

So I spend like 40% of my take home pay on hookers. Works for me. BTW I am also putting 8% of my gross pay in my 401k plan. This job is not covered under Social Security and I've had several that weren't so even if the system doesn't go bankrupt my benefit won't be very high. Thus I must save diligently for retirement if I want to have hookers in retirement.

I'll probably reduce the grocery budget cuz I just can't spend that much. The electric may go up quite a bit once it gets hot, and I'm usually over budget on toiletries and a little bit on laundry. The biggest problem with laundry is changing the sheets much more often than I would normally do, and also cleaning the bedspread every time some chica leaves a big stain; that is 10 pesos.

I don't deny myself anything I want or need either but all I ever want and need is pussy and beer, beer and pussy. So I'm shallow. So sue me.

Somebody who's seen both me and Saint lately's gotta tell me if his haircuts look 19 pesos better than mine!

Saint

09-11-04, 20:17

Thanks for posting that Dickhead. Yes, we do have different ideas on how to spend money. The world would be a pretty dull place if we all had the same opinions and budgets.

Anyway, I'm curious how you are budgeting only 150 pesos per month for "Dining out". That is amazing to me! 150 pesos a month is only 5 pesos a day on breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Seems impossible but I guess if you cook a hell of a lot. You're only spending $193 US or 580 pesos on FOOD at the grocery, snacks, restaurants?? You just posted you are cutting your grocery budget? Wow. Also, I'd love to hear on how much you are overshooting on categories like "drinks out". Is it possible you spend just as much on booze as food?? Ha, ha.

Really, if you subtract things like my medical insurance from the USA which is expensive and will go away at the end of this month, my cell phone bill, my Vonage phone, misc. one-time expenses with setting up my apartment and some other things that should go away... our budgets aren't too too off. It looks like on average my monthly budget is about $440 US or 1,320 pesos more than yours. Maybe less because my taxi fares were high because of trips all over buying furniture and going out to Unicenter and also if "the boys come into town more" your budget is actually higher spent on going out. The big part of our difference is on what we pay for our monthly rent.

Thanks again.

P.S. My haircut should look only 9 pesos better than yours. I gave my guy a 10 peso tip. :) Seriously though, thanks again for posting. It is valuable information.

Dickhead

09-11-04, 20:20

Where'd Saint's last post go? Anyway he said I must mean 150 dollars on dining out, not pesos. I don't. I mean pesos. 5 for breakfast, 10 for lunch and 20 for dinner is plenty for a Dickhead. 5 + 10 + 20 = 35 x 4.3 weeks = 150 más o menos. So that was based on eating out once a week per meal. But since I've actually been eating breakfast and lunch out very seldom, I've been eating dinner out a bit more, and 20 is on the high side.

When I overshoot on drinks out is when a lot of the boys are in town and also I unfortunately live 100 feet from The Shamrock. Like if Mickey Mouse is in town.

Month to date I have spent exactly 164.49 on food and 292.15 on booze (pesos). But I'm Irish. Throw me a potato once in a while and I'm fine. As some of you know, cooking is a hobby for me so yeah, that helps. There's a lot of good restaurants here but on the average my cooking is better!

I edited the budget because I forgot the 45 pesos for the gym. Gotta stay in shape for beer drinking and hooker chasing. Essentially I am taking the difference between my rent and your rent and spending it on pussy, plus I cook for myself and don't have (or want) a maid. I think my apartment is okay although not lavish and the location is great. I don't need a big apartment.

Saint

09-13-04, 19:17

More furniture store options for those of you interested in high quality stuff. There are alot of high end designer type furniture stores near Arenales in the 1400 block. Just walk from Arenales all the way to Libertad and you'll see many furniture stores, curtain stores, beds, etc. This stuff is actually even more expensive than Buenos Aires Design but the quality is really really high and some if it is really unique. I purchased some lamps and tables that were really contemporary and unique in this part of town.

Just more options for those of you furniture shopping. Make sure to always ask them for a discount for buying more than one item and another discount for paying with cash.

P.S. If anyone has any information or experience with buying property in desirable cities outside of Buenos Aires like Bariloche, Mendoza, Pinamar, Punta del Este (Uruguay) or Ushuaia please PM or email me. Thanks in advance.

Saint

09-15-04, 00:36

Gyms to use while in Buenos Aires

A few guys have been emailing me asking about the possibility of using a gym while in Buenos Aires. Many gymnasiums will let you get a day entrance pass for a fee. The one I called today, Megatlon Gimnasio, is located at Rodríguez Peña 1054. The lady told me that you can pay 15 pesos for a day pass. She mentioned they are open 24 hours a day and they have a pool. If you use the pool, the only requirement is you must use a shower cap. If you don't have one you can purchase one there for a nominal fee.

I believe there are several Megatlon Gyms around town. I plan on getting a membership to one but really I've been too busy to go to one. I've lost weight just from all the walking and the food here is less fattening than the USA.

The phone number to the gym above is 4816-7009 so maybe they can give you the other locations of their other gyms. They probably have the same pricing structure. Good luck.
__________________________________

P.S. You can save a lot of money as Dickhead posted by cooking yourself. The biggest problem I have is that of time. By the time I come home from work/school/work I'm so tired I don't want to cook. It's exactly how it was in the USA. You can save a lot of money cooking yourself but it's usually easier to just pick up something on the way home or have it delivered. I'm finding that every single lunch and dinner I'm getting from a restaurant. Just as I never cooked in the USA, I doubt I'll cook here.

Also, I have yet to take a bus or the metro. I know it's a lot cheaper but I rarely have the time to wait around for the bus. In the 10-15 minutes it would take to wait for one, I'm finding a taxi can take me to my destination in the same time that I'd spend there waiting for the bus.

Generally I think unless you are retired, working from home, or have a lot of time to kill, you'll do things similar to how you were doing them in the USA. i.e. if you never take a bus/metro in the USA - you'll most likely not take it here. Yes, money can be saved but in the grand scheme of things it's not much compared to time. Maybe that will change in the future but I can't see it changing in the NEAR future for me.

This is the first time in my life I don't have a car and really I don't miss it. Still, maybe in a year or so I'll get a car so that I can explore other places outside of Buenos Aires.

Bacchus9

09-15-04, 01:30

Greetings one and all as I make my entry onto the board with a first post. There is much I want to say and promise a report on my first visit to Buenos Aires which included a great dinner and "dessert" at the Mansion on September 4th courtesy of Jackson and Captain Dave.

Not to lose the topic here however, I just wanted to comment appreciatively about the great information on living in Buenos Aires and incredibly two lifestyle budgets as I have been trying to make my own estimates at monthly overhead with an eye towards moving to Buenos Aires after the first of the year.

The information on the board has been the greatest aid in getting to know Buenos Aires via the fastlane. With forty pages of copied notes from the board and a copy of TimeOut's "Buenos Aires" all I had to do was apply energy, curiousity, pesos and Vitamin "V" and I was on my way to an E ticket experience in the secrets of the city. Viva la concha!

I'll post a report soon, meanwhile many thanks to all here. This is living large.

Daddy Rulz

09-15-04, 01:43

I was really amazed reading Saint and Dickheads posts of their budget. I have been going to BsAs for a couple years now (yes I know I just started posting I'm a computer idiot and couldn't figure out the regular member thing) starting a month after the crisis.

In that time I've made some Argentinian friends. What amazes me is this, I know the people that work for the same company I do earn 850 peso's a month and a friend of mine that is a secretary earns 900 (a well paid secretary from what I understand). Hotel clerks earn around 7-900 pesos. Hotel maids about 400 or less.

What I don't understand is how they make it. I know the live in different parts of town and probably are not spending nearly as much money on chicas. But it still doesn't add up.

Just a comment for perspective.

Saint

09-15-04, 10:16

Daddy,

You are exactly right on the wages. People here don't make jack. The way they make it is that most of them don't live in the "Capital". They live in the Provincia where things are much cheaper. Ask most of these people in the stores where they live and odds are most live far away. Every taxi driver I've used I talk to and ask where they live and they all tell me in the Provincia.

Also, many of these people live together with their family, share an apartment with a friend or live in a very very cheap apartment. Some people have property that is owned by relatives or friends that they pay nothing or just a small portion of a normal rent. (I've met three people in this situation).

They don't go out to eat in restaurants. They cook or they eat with their families. I know girls that I've taken to a nice restaurant and they are all nervous at what fork to use because they've never been in a nicer restaurant before. They don't take taxi's unless it's absolutely necessary. They don't buy snacks every morning at the bakery like I do.

They don't set an "entertainment budget". I'm not hobbying much but the budget I allow myself to take girls out, wine/dine, entrance clubs, etc. is typically more than many people make here in a month. These people here don't set an "entertainment budget". Go to a park on a Saturday or Sunday and you'll see it full. These people are content with little/simple pleasures in life. Or go to Recoleta Village upstairs to the McDonalds on a weekend. Packed with tons of teenagers just talking, laughing and hanging out with one another.

These people don't use maids, they don't use cell phones that much (if at all), don't have school expenses and very few of them have expensive medical insurance like foreigners need to purchase. They don't have high speed internet, some might not have cable.

Andres is a better person to explain all of this. I'm just posting my observations. The thing is that the majority of you thinking about a move aren't really poor and lived this way all your life. What I try to do with my posts and the reason I posted the budget and asked others like Dickhead to post too is to give you a contrast of the cost of living here.

The plain fact of the matter is that to live a good life here you need to make money. Unless you are done working and retired, you really gotta bust your ass down here to make a decent living. As I mentioned before, I'm working twice as hard as I ever did in the USA and so far I haven't made any money. When I DO start making money it will be maybe a fraction of what I was making in the USA.

Those that are thinking about moving down here have to have a good gameplan of how they will make money, how they will spend their money and set a path of a normal life down here. 99% of us can't go out drinking everynight, chasing girls at clubs a few times a week, etc. The thing I want to do with my posts is to help guys stay realistic about costs and make them realize moving to BA is NOT like moving to some cheap place like Colombia.

Dickhead and I, as he pointed out don't have too much in common. That's ok. That is probably better to give you two different budgets and lifestyles. Take a look at his. Take a look at mine and maybe you are somewhere in the middle. Read what we both wrote and our daily habits, where we live etc.

P.S. I'd say WSG is drastically expanding their base of readers to the board. I've received about 5 emails in the past week from "non-mongers" that heard there was some good information on Living in BA and came to check out the board. A few of them are married guys that only come down with their wives and don't hobby, several were businessmen. Thought it was funny considering the name of the board..ha, ha.

Andres

09-15-04, 10:35

Ballpark budget (in Argentine Pesos)

Rent: $500
Condominium fees (expensas): $130
Utilities (gas, power, water & sewage): $60 (usually $40 bimonthly electricity, $20 bimonthly water, $30 bimonthly gas and $30 bimonthly municipal taxes)
Phone & Internet: $120
Grocery: $200 (includes cleaning and food)(I cook 75% of the time)
Eating out: $140 (no more than once or twice a week)
Laundry: $30
Medical insurance: $250
Transportation: $150 (half of that for buses and subway, half for gas)
Car miscellaneous: $300 ($200 monthly insurance, $600 yearly licence fee, $500 yearly expenditures on spare parts and such)
Chicas: $1000 (usually no more than twice a week, half of which are in affordable places, all rpices included)
Gym: $75 (expensive, since as a student at a local university I could get it for less than $50)
Entertainment: $150 (includes movies, non-pro clubbing, VCR rent, music performances, etc.)
Sundry: $100 (includes $14 monthly haircut, repairs at home, etc)

TOTAL: $3,205 (roughly US$1,100)

Some items can be lowered or eliminated (such as car), while some others should be raised (I'm invited to many parties and lunches for free). Overall, it's an average (or somewhat below average, since I don't add travel) consumption compared to US standards but too high for local standards.

To "feel comfortable" with such level of expenditure, I guess that you should make ar$5000 a month here (covering unemployment contingencies and unexpected expenditures). Making that money here is really hard.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Andres

09-15-04, 10:47

A family of 4 here can perfectly survive with ar$1000-ar$1500/mo, a sum attainable with 2 working heads in the family. That assumes that employment covers medical insurance for the whole family and other small expenditures.

Andres

Saint

09-15-04, 11:11

I think Andres is absolutely correct. However, the thing again you should keep in mind is this family probably has been used to living like this for a long long time (if not forever). It would be almost impossible, IMHO, for an American to come down here and live for anywhere even close to that amount of money based on how we are living in the USA.

I do plan on trying to drastically cut my budget once I'm not so busy but now I have very little time to cook, etc.

I think for most Americans to live a very good life down here you need to expect to make about $2,000 US (6,000 pesos) per month. That would include going out to eat quite frequently in nice places, taking taxis whenever you wanted, decent entertainment budget, having full medical insurance which I feel is important, using a cellphone quite frequently (I use mine daily very often), having cable and high speed internet, maybe a Vonage phone and also living in a very nice apartment in a good area. In my budget it included EVERY single peso I spent. I think if Andres added up the actual cost of going out all the time and all these functions he'll find it's quite expensive to do that on a habitual basis.

That figure above doesn't count any plans to save any money. I figure to live like a king AND save for the future you need to make at least $3,000+ US per month which is almost impossible to do here without investing heavily in a business. However, BA would be perfect for all of you that can work from a computer and a telephone anywhere in the world. If you are making US$ here you can live well. I would think jobs like graphic designers, web page developers, etc. that can work from BA and make US$ would do VERY well here.

Again, as always all of this as well as all my posts are in my humble opinion.

Member #2001

09-15-04, 12:57

Saint

What about an english teacher at a foriegn language school, a private school, or teaching english at the university level?

Dickhead

09-15-04, 13:19

It doesn't take 10 or 15 minutes to wait for a bus unless it is in the middle of the night. In the day it is like 2 minutes to wait for a bus, and the Subte is about 5 or 6 minutes (a bit more on Saturdays). Of course since Saint has never taken one, he wouldn't know that! The bus system works great and provides major savings and plus the buses are full of women to flirt with. The buses run all night although the frequency decreases considerably. But you'll see buses go by at 2 AM with lots of people on them.

Note that I am one of those people who works by computer over the internet and that is the only thing that makes it possible for me to live here. Note further that I could barely survive in the US on my salary and I am living quite well down here.

¡Viva la Republica!

Saint

09-15-04, 13:40

Member#2001,

If you're asking what the chances are at working at one of these schools, I'd venture to guess it still would be difficult to earn money. Unemployment is very high here. There is a good sized group that are highly educated here. The majority here don't speak any English but there are groups that I'm encountering that are all highly educated. Not only them but most of their family members too.

Your biggest problem will be becoming legitimate with a working visa to make money legally in Argentina. Of course, many businesses here don't object to paying you "under the table" but then you'll make a lot less. I do think you might be able to make some money but it won't be anything significant and I doubt you could live on it here. The honest truth is that salaries here are almost nothing compared to the USA, Canada and Europe. In fact, that is the only advantage I can see doing business here in Argentina. You can find very skilled, highly educated employees for not a lot of money. That ALSO means that if you are skilled and highly educated, you are competing for those same jobs for the same money. Why are they going to pay you such a premium when they don't pay it to a local with perfect language skills?? Ask yourself these type of questions before moving down here. You have to find/create a business where you earn US$ and spend pesos.

Even highly educated people like doctors don't make too much money here relatively speaking compared to the USA and Europe. I've talked to a few physicians that thought of moving here. I find there are very very good physicians here that are highly educated (some educated in the USA) so think twice before you think you are going to make much more than them.

Dickhead is absolutely 100% correct. I've never taken a bus and honestly I probably won't for some time. Also, the Subte (metro) does me no good for many of the places I'm going to. There is no Subte system in the part of Recoleta where I live. A bus might only take a few minutes to pick me up but I doubt it will take me door to door where I need to go. Taxi's for me are worth the trade off of the convenience of time, even though they are more expensive. Even the successful locals I deal with on a daily basis (lawyers, accountants, partner, realtors) just use taxi's since they are so plentiful and convenient. Buses don't work for them either so I don't feel so bad. Many times in life it's not about what you are spending to get from point A to point B. It's about how much more you can make or what more you can accomplish in the time you save getting from point A to point B.

Buses are probably a viable option for people that have more time. Dickhead pointed out he works from home. Things are much easier if you have that option. I'm bouncing around from one place to another all throughout the day. Home-office-school-office-meetings-bank-realtor's office-apartments-furniture shopping-etc. Buses just don't make sense for this type of situation. I don't care what anyone says.

Starfe

09-15-04, 13:54

Saint.

" I don't care what anyone says"

One day you might end up taking the bus. I like sitting by the window because you get the best views but other times I like sitting near the bus driver and throw spitballs at him. Just depends on my mood that day.

Starfe

p.s: always carry a straw in your backpack. I do

Dickhead

09-15-04, 14:22

I just used the bus to go to the Paris Cambio on Santa Fe between Suipacha and Esmeralda. I did some experimenting. First I walked to the bus stop for the route I use most often, 39. The walk is 2:20 for 2.5 blocks. Bus was pulling up as I arrived. Waiting time = zero. But I didn't get on. I waited for the next #39 = 1:08. But the 39 doesn't cross Avenida de Mayo. The route it shares the stop with, 150, does, but that one doesn't seem to run all that often.

So I walked two blocks to the stop for 10, 17, 59, and 152 (actually 2 stops with two routes each a few feet apart). Any of these goes to Paris Cambio. I waited until one of each of the 4 had arrived and got on the 4th one. Waiting time = 1:55 including boarding time (1:55 from the time my hand hit the pole to when the #10 pulled from the curb). However, if I had taken the 59, first to arrive, it would have been 0:40. This bus stop represents the farthest possible bus stop from my house for the routes I would ever use, 3.5 blocks.

The cab fare to this destination is 3.15 or so, making the savings 2.40 or put in Dickhead terms, a quart and a half of Brahma, or 3 quarts round trip. For comparison I walked back = 17 minutes. On my way back I stopped at the bus stop for another important route, 37. 37 is important because it goes to Nuevo Estilo. IF I had wanted to take this bus I would have waited 0:40 for it to arrive.

I also timed how long it took from the time I walked out my building door to the time the first available cab passed = 0:33. BTW most of the bus routes have stops every 3 blocks. I'll track some other waiting times in the weeks to come.

BTW I, like Saint, seldom use the subway as the nearest stop is 5.5 blocks away. But note that, importantly, on the #10 bus there were some fantastic asses that I would not have seen up close if I had taken a cab. Now that's what really matters!

Hope that helps,

DH

Doc Bill

09-15-04, 14:25

A question for Saint, if I may stray from all this good practical advice for a moment: From reading your posts it sounds very, very hard to make the adjustment from living in the US to BA, and also very hard to make enough money there to live comfortably. You've also said that you have no problem with the US and that you don't consider it "sex prison." So, why did you decide to move to BA and struggle? I'm just curious because I'm thinking of doing the same thing. Any second thoughts? What makes it so worthwhile for you?

Saint

09-15-04, 20:59

Doc Bill,

That's an excellent question. I'm not saying it's hard for me to make the adjustment from living in the USA to BA. Quite the contrary, I think I've made a VERY quick adjustment and I'm proud of all I have accomplished in a relatively short amount of time. All the things I've done would be damn hard to do in the USA, let alone a foreign country.

I knew coming in that it wouldn't be easy. Generally I don't have a problem with the USA. It's one of the greatest countries in the world. I had a great job where I made good money, I had a big house, I drove the Beemer, etc. Even after I left my job I had an opportunity to move to Manhattan and make a good salary with an executive job.

I moved to BA because I've been itching to do it since my very first trip. Go back and re-read my very first posts. I love everything about BA. You just can't get this kind of atmosphere in most cities in the USA. Actually the "chica scene" had very very very little to do with my desire to live here. I knew once I moved here I wouldn't be "hobbying" much, if at all.

I never said I was struggling here. I said I'm working harder than I did in the USA. There is a difference. I don't regret for one moment moving here. Sure, I was nervous as hell quitting, selling my house, selling my car, selling all my worldly possessions. Honestly though I'm very happy here and I really feel like my future is here. Will I ever get rich here?? I seriously doubt it. Is that ok? Absolutely. I moved here for quality of life issues.... not to get rich.

The USA is great but I discovered I was traveling non-stop and the only time I was REALLY happy was when I was discovering new places, cultures and countries. Out of all the places I've been to in the world, Buenos Aires is still my favorite city.

What makes it worthwhile? That's simple. When I wake up in the morning I have a smile on my face and I find myself very happy to be living here. Not for the girls, not for the cost of living or the many great restaurants. It's the feeling I get from being in a city I actually love. How many people in the USA can say they live in a world class city that they truly love? Sure, there are some great cities in California and other spots but the majority of the people I know aren't too thrilled.

Too many people whine and complain about how life is unfair or they aren't happy, or their wife is a b*tch, or yadda yadda yadda but never do anything to change their life. I've never been one to complain much. As I posted before, life is as fair as you make it. No one will give you anything in life. If you want something you must make it happen. No one gave me anything. I'm not a trust fund kid (I wish!), put myself through school with loans and worked hard. Everything I accomplished in life I did on my own...

I hope that answers your question. Good luck.

HappyGoLucky

09-15-04, 21:16

DH has a point. Definitely a lot of hotties on the buses.

While I could always afford a cab 'cause they're pretty damn cheap, there's no adventure in cabs (unless the driver is robbing you).

But buses carry the real Argentine life, and rarely did I ever ask a sweet young lady for directions in my gawdawful Castellano that I was not received with warmth, interest, and attention.

The bus drivers are another story- probably 'cause of spitballs...

Saint

09-15-04, 21:34

HappyGoLucky,

Quit your high paying job, sell your house, sell your car, sell all your things, cash out most of your 401k and savings, move to another country, start 2 new companies, open a new office with a multi-year lease, hire employees, buy 2 apartments, furnish those apartments, etc.

If that isn't enough "adventure" for you then you have my utmost respect. As I pointed out before, having "adventures" as a tourist or "quasi-tourist" and as a citizen that plans to live here for the foreseeable future are two different things.

Trust me. For any of you in this position you will quickly learn that girls aren't the most important priority for you. I think even Dickhead would agree you have to have some kind of game plan. There is only so long you can party at a ferocious pace and not run out of money. Unless you have a ton saved up or expecting a tidy sum in retirement/pensions, you better pray to God you have a good plan.

Starfe

09-15-04, 21:56

HappyGoLucky,

Please try my spitball approach one time before questioning it. Some of my best relationships in Buenos Aires are with bus drivers. You can also fire spitballs at the cabbies. It is not as much fun and they can respond by swatting you with a magazine or newspaper.
As you can tell I like to live on the edge.
I hope I have been of some help.

Starfe

CaptainNemo

09-15-04, 23:18

I did a lot of shoppings in BA. I always paid with cash and asked for discount. Most of time, I got 5% or 10% discount.

At Dior, I got my biggest discount. I got 10% discount by paying cash. Then, I ask for tax refund discount. The guy reduced the price for another 15%.

I also ask for discount by using US $. But, the saving is very small. Just a better exchange rate.

Some of stores still charge the same price with cash or credit cards.

Bacchus9

09-15-04, 23:23

Timely stuff here. I've got the gameplan, it's the internet and connectivity, and made the crucial announcement this afternoon to the business I've been involved with for years. They took it pretty well all things considered. Booked a few consulting jobs for October through December to pad the emergency fund and moving expenses. The pieces are pulling together. Your "sell the car, sell all your things..." comment Saint, I guess you moved light yes? Except for the suitcases of money.

Do you have any guidance regards shipping whatever to Buenos Aires - art, computers, books, rugs or did you just start fresh on the ground?

Also I talked to my accountant today, he says that you can earn up to $80K per year living outside the country without requirement to pay taxes on it but you have to file and you have to be registered in the country you're in to do business should the IRS want proof. I recall a thread somewhere that touched on this, registering in the country, is it difficult and what taxes might you be subject to in Argentina/Buenos Aires as a result?

Member #2001

09-16-04, 01:47

My thoughts are like Saints all the way.

I was going to buy a apartment in another country and live there 6 months out of the year. I figured I could work in the states and live abroad six months out of the year and still save money for retirement. Unfortunatly I had a disaster hapen to me of epic purportions. I am afraid that the real estate in that part of the world is overpriced for me at the moment so now I look for something else. The only problem with it is the dread I would fell knowing that I would have to go back to the states for the six months and hard work. Anyway I will not take this route, because of my unexpected mishap.

I want to live in a place that I am comfortable in and I can feel happy about it on a regular basis. For me there are other things in this world other then money or sex with prostitutes. Although sex does have a high priorty sometimes with me (at least when I am in the states it does). When I live in another country it does not seem to have the same urgency, or meaning. I guess I just like being in a city that I love with or with out a girlfreind to keep me company.

Member #2001

09-16-04, 01:48

Saint

09-16-04, 10:59

Bacchus,

First of all congratulations and good luck. It seems many people are thinking about a move somewhere and BA is on many people's list. The reason I sold everything was I anticipated being gone for several years. You could store the car and furniture in storage but I would have spent a fortune on temperature/humidity controlled storage. It didn't make sense.

I didn't exactly move "light" like some assume. I did and didn't. I brought about 13 suitcases full of misc. stuff on two different trips. One trip my friends were coming down so I took advantage of it and had them bring some things too like laser printers, electronics, etc. American Airlines lets you check in up to 5 bags for the USA to Argentina flight. Two are free up to 70 lbs @. The maximum limit is 100 lbs per bag. If the 2 bags are over 70 lbs. you must pay $100 per bag. The extra 3 bags you check in are $100@ and can be up to 70 lbs. each. If they are over 70 lbs you pay and additional $100@. Basically I brought 4 bags that were 100 lbs. and one that was 70 lbs the final move. The trip before I brought the maximum number of bags also. It can be expensive but quicker and cheaper than getting it shipped. You can also carry on two bags. In those bags I carred on things like VCRs, DVD players, laptops.

Just make sure when you come through customs in Argentina nothing is new in the box or you could have some problems. I had a student visa that I showed them so they could obviously see I would be living here a year. If you are coming in on a tourist visa they might try to hit you up for serious taxes. I had no such problems with the student visa. That was also a secondary reason why I went through the time and trouble of getting this visa. I knew that I might have problems making this move with all this stuff with a tourist visa.

The other downer is that there is some kind of law for Argentina. I don't believe they allow freight shippers to send things here unless you have some sort of long term visa. If not, I don't think you can use them. The laws could have changed but last year when I was researching I came across that tidbit of information.

Most things in the USA I sold (for a fraction of what I paid) or I donated it. I donated so many things like shoes, clothes, furniture, pots/pans/etc. Probably 6 truckloads worth of stuff. It was not practical to bring everything with me. I'll have a good write off this year on my tax return.

Bring as many electronics within reason as you can. Things like laptops here are expensive. Just to give you a reference of what electronics I brought. I brought 2 VCRs, 1 DVD player, big HP laser printer, 2 laptops, 2 stereos, 3 telephones, 1 cordless phone, wireless router, Vonage phone unit, 2 cellphones, Ipod, cd player, other small electronic gadgets.

Your accountant is correct. I'm not sure what the exact figure is these days but I think it's close to $80,000 US but there are many different things that go along with it so consult him. I believe you have to live outside of the US a certain number of days. Maybe like 330 or so. I'm not sure. Just make sure you aren't in the USA more than a few weeks a year. I know someone that works overseas and he has to be very careful not to stay in the USA more than a few weeks a year for this very reason. Other people that know more about this are encouraged to post.

As far as your tax obligations here in Argentina...ha, ha. All I have to say the majority of people here don't pay taxes so I doubt if anyone is going to be chasing you to. Nonetheless, I registered my company and got a C.U.I.T. so we are official and we are paying taxes. The taxes here are relatively high. That's why various places give you a big discount to pay in cash. Places like the Art Suites that let you pay cash and avoid the 21% VAT tax aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing it because they aren't declaring that income, thereby avoiding taxes on that income.

Still, I prefer to do things legitimate here as I plan to live here for many years if not forever. I've found that while I'm worrying about the best way to pay taxes here, most are figuring out how to avoid taxes. I hate taxes as much as the next guy but I don't want any problems living here until I get my residency status.

I was paying an outrageous amount in the USA in taxes and I won't miss paying those taxes in the future. On the other hand, things run a lot smoother in the USA because of all those taxes. The reason why Argentina has alot of the problems it does is because of the way they think in regards to a lot of these issues.

Before moving down make a check list of all the things you need to do. I'd suggest opening up many different internet bank accounts (www.bankdirect.com; www.netbank.com; www.everbank.com; etc.) Most of those banks are cheaper to deal with, rebate ATM withdrawal fees, higher interest rates. You won't be hitting a bricks & mortor bank if you live here so no use paying the fees of one. I've found that the banks like Bankdirect and Netbank easier to deal with. Also, something cool is you can actually take out your maximum daily limit at one time. Example: All the other banks I use only let me take out a maximum of 500 pesos at a time. I can take out 1500 pesos with Bankdirect and Netbank.

Plan for emergencies too. Bring enough cash to last you several months to a year. You never know what could happen. You could lose your ATM cards, bank problems, whatever. I've found that moving cash here has a cost. You will usually always have a need for US$ at some point so bring as much as you can. There is no law against bringing more than $10,000 as long as you declare it.

Also, definitely get a Vonage phone. (www.vonage.com). It's really convenient to make/receive unlimited calls to/from the USA for less than $40 US a month. If you need a referral PM me and I can send you a referral email for a free month.

The biggest thing is to plan ahead and create "what if" lists. What if I get sick? What if I got robbed, what if I can't make money, what if I do make money, what if I want to rent long term, what if I want to buy an apartment/house, what if I want to buy X? Make all these lists ahead of time then spend time researching the answers to them. Plan all of this ahead of time so that when you are actually here and you need to find out something you already have the answers to as many questions as possible.

Take the time to read this entire section. There is actually some great information here. Keep in mind you can't over plan a move like this. It's a huge move so act accordingly. I don't claim to be any expert on moving. This is the first move I've made since college and the first move I've made overseas.

Good luck.

Sporadic

09-16-04, 11:12

The 80k exemption on foreign earned income is a fact. One way to qualify is the physical presence test (not more than 30 days in the US in a year, and yes you have to prove it!) or having a residence permit in another country. The idea is simply, pay it at home, or pay it there.

The definitive answers can be found here... http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p54.pdf

Cheers,

Sporadic

Andres

09-16-04, 11:41

Moving stuff:

Since many Argentinians move abroad, I suggest looking for shipping companies on Internet. There are also people distributing leaflets from shipping companies outside busy embassies (Spain, Canada, Italy). You can contact them.

I know that a full container costs US$3,000 from Buenos Aires to North American cities, so sharing a container with Argentinians moving back may be a good (and risky) idea to save money.

I had the experience of moving forth and back from the US, so I strongly recommend to minimize your shipping as much as possible. Except for some electronics (audio, video, computers), don't bring power-thirsty appliances due to voltage divergencies and frequency issues (I guess that we have 50Hz, while the US has 60 Hz, or viceversa).

Hope this helps,

Andres

El Aleman

09-16-04, 12:13

Saint:

Quote

Buses are probably a viable option for people that have more time

unquote

Last December. I was in Santiago de Chile for a couple of days. I stayed in a hotel a bit out of the center, and on my first day, not knowing my way, I took a cab from downtown to the hotel. It took me about 1 1/2 hours, and 10 U$S. I was stuck in the worst traffic jam I experienced in the southern hemisphere.

Next day, hotel staff suggested to walk down half a block to the metro station. Result: 20 minutes and 30 cents to downtown.

If I would live in BA, and not just be there occasionally, I would certainly take some time to get aquainted with the public transport system. Just to have all options available...

El Aléman.

Saint

09-16-04, 12:44

I'm not saying buses are a bad idea or don't save time. All I'm saying is that I find taxi's VERY convenient for me to take me door to door to where I need to go. When I have more time I'll figure out if taking buses are a time savings. Even usually when I'm in a taxi, I'm working or on the phone and it's private and quiet. I doubt I'd get that in a bus. I'm just posting my experiences. Put it this way, in the USA I was never one to take ANY public transit system.

I agree IN Santiago the metro system is the way to go. When I was there a few months ago I took it all the time and it was great. Santiago has to have one of the most organized and efficient metros in South America. You can't compare BA's to Santiago's.

Also, as Andres pointed out, it could be risky to do his idea. Frankly, I wouldn't do it unless it was a family member or a really good friend you've known for a while. Generally, I find that people here are weary to trust someone too quickly/easily and there is a good reason for that. I find here if you don't know what you're doing or haven't researched something very well you could get screwed. Be careful.

As far as making over $80,000 US here. I don't think I'll have to worry about that for a long long time. If i make more than that, I'll gladly pay whomever whatever taxes is required. I'd be so happy to make that here. Honestly, I'd be really happy to make $50,000 - $60,000 US here someday.

Dickhead

09-16-04, 18:40

Lamentablemente when I went to renew my gym membership for another 3 months today, the price had risen from 135 to 150, or from 45 to 50 pesos a month. There go 3 quarts of Brahma a month!

CaptainNemo

09-16-04, 18:42

Saint

As everyone else, I follow up with your moving to BA with great interest. After I visited BA, I have a few questions.

Why do you invest in BA apartments? Why don’t you buy real estate in US and use a property management company to manage them and collect rent? Is that a better option? Do you think that BA’s real estate market has a higher return than US real estate?

I cannot see why BA will be a better investment. There are no waves of immigrations going on in BA (US does). There is no significant population growth (maybe all of these hot Brazilian babes will move to BA) in BA. There is no significant job growth in BA. These are very important factors in real estate appreciation. Looking at US real estate market, Las Vegas or other areas have significant population growth or job growth (DC area). This is not the case of BA.

Of course, if you bet on many, many Americans to retire in BA, you may make money on your investment.

Vegas #2

09-16-04, 19:25

I'm not a tax expert, but I was working and living in Asia as an expat at one time, and would like to clarify what Domino just posted.

Yes, the US has a double taxation system, and so do many European countries, especially the Scandinavian countries. Also New Zealand and Australia.

In theory, when you earn money overseas, passive as in an investment or active as having a job, you first pay the local income or withholding taxes of the overseas country, if any.

US citizens then need to file a US tax return for the same money earned and pay US tax, but getting a tax credit for what has been paid in the foreign country. In essence, you are only paying the difference, and not paying twice.

This is regardless of where you live.

There are rules that would make the foreign tax credit very advantageous to people who live longterm in a foreign country, as well as ways to make the most of your situation when you live in a no-tax or low-tax country. Think of the thousands of American expats in the Middle East, Asia, and elsewhere.

You should consult a good accountant in this specialty who handles expats, and not a US local accountant. My company paid for my tax returns using the local office of Price Waterhouse. Once you start working and living overseas, I'm sure you'll get some good referrals.

Saint

09-16-04, 19:59

CaptainNemo,

I invested here because it's where I live now. Why would I invest in the United States now that I'm not living there? I want to do business where I can manage it, grow it and oversee it. I love Buenos Aires and I see the potential to make money here. As I mentioned, I don't think I will get rich here but I don't need to make six-figures+ like in the USA. I obviously didn't move here for financial reasons. If I wanted to be comfortable and stable I'd be working in the USA.

Many people don't know or forget that I had 3 apartments here in Buenos Aires in 2002 and 2003 that I was leasing out to tourists/businessmen. I basically did that to get some experience with the market. My friends told me I was crazy to invest all that money in Buenos Aires. You know what? They were wrong. I made money in that business even after paying out over $9,500 US in management fees but more importantly I gained valuable insight into the business.

I'm not saying and never claimed that real estate in BA was a better investment than the USA. What I am saying is that I love Buenos Aires and I see the potential to work and grow businesses in a city that I can honestly see growing old in.

Americans retiring in BA does nothing for my business models. You are missing the point completely on what I'm doing. My businesses revolve around tourists and people here for business. BA always had tourism. There were plenty of tourists in Recoleta before the devaluation and there are even more tourists here now and there will be tourists here probably till the end of time. "Job growth" doesn't affect what I am doing. BA is actively trying to increase tourism. Read the papers. Love Recoleta or hate it....the police and the city will never let Recoleta become an "ugly" area.

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. Too many people try to overthink things. I've learned a few things in growing businesses over the years. If you work hard, provide an excellent service/product, are honest and upfront with your customers, they will keep coming back to you. Some people here in Buenos Aires tend to forget that the client is the most important person. Too many people here have the attitude, "I'll just provide this other product/service even though it's not what they asked for since I'll make more money". That is NOT what I'm about.

Those that have met me and know me and those that have been reading the various message boards over the past 4 years or so know what I'm about and how I conduct myself.

I'm not saying investing in property here is a slam dunk. Quite the contrary. There are so many ways to get screwed here you won't believe it. Even after you buy, unless you are here to oversee or manage your property you will have headaches. Also, it's not so easy to market your properties. That's why I'm starting a property management company that will oversee properties that foreigners are buying. As I mentioned, some are just going to use me to market but some will use me to manage them too. My website will be up next month and I think most of you will be impressed.

Please don't think that I'm saying to sell everything and buy property here. Buying property in a foreign country is serious business that takes a lot of thought. Read my past posts on buying property here. There is a lot of good information in them. Always keep in mind how very expensive it is. Remember just the commissions/legal fees/transferring money of buying and selling is over 11% so your property has to rise more than that just to break even.

Hope that helps.

Starfe

09-16-04, 20:17

CaptainNemo & Saint ,

Its all about the cheap beautiful pussy in the end ( seems everything is dirt cheap there ). If the hookers were running $300 u.s. an hour I promise you very few of us would be going down there let alone live there or even think about starting a business.
Or lets put it another way: if the taxis cost what they cost in NYC would the Saint still choose to live there?
Lets not kid ourselves or anyone else.

Its Price-Location-Price as apposed to Location-location- location

Jackson set the standard by moving down there .

Starfe

Saint

09-16-04, 20:54

Starfe is 100% correct. I would have NEVER moved down here if the cost of living was as high as it was pre-devaluation. No way, no how. The reason why BA is so attractive in addition to being beautiful was being relatively cheap. Make no mistake though. I never would have moved here if the cost of living wasn't what it was. It could get worse but it will NEVER go back to 1:1 again.

Dickhead

09-16-04, 21:31

Me neither. If this places gets expensive, I'll just go somewhere else. That's the beauty of being able to work from anywhere.

Gas bill came today; 25,70 for two months. That's a bit over $4 US a month. All that is, is the stove. But I cook a lot. It's cheap here.

Yesterday I bought half a kilo of mushrooms and it was 8,70 so that's pretty expensive. That was at Norte. I need to compare that to the prices at the verduleria.

Over the counter medicines like ibuprofen and cough syrup are kind of expensive here too.

CaptainNemo

09-16-04, 22:17

Saint,

I can see your point. I guess that you have strong faith in this country. I hope that everything works out for you.

Starfe

09-16-04, 22:44

Comments about the Saint ,

I have met few people in my life who have the survival skills that the Saint possesses. He will make this transition a successful one. Some mistakes will be made on the way but I promise you they will be ones that were out of his control. I have seen this guy in action. "A wee bit cocky and somewhat over confident " are just some of the terms I would use to describe the Saint, but those are important traits to have if you want to be a winner in life.

I would not bet against him.

Starfe

Saint

09-17-04, 03:00

I appreciate the post from one of my best friends in the world (Starfe). It's ironic that the WSG board actually started my friendship with a guy that 2.5 years ago asked me to mail him a Clarin while I was here on my voyage trip to Buenos Aires. Imagine my surprise when I went to mail it to him and we lived just a few miles apart. We have been very close friends since then.

I know I can be overconfident. I know I can be cocky sometimes but I really believe that everything I have achieved in my life was because of that. Still, Starfe is right. I have made mistakes and I'm sure that I will continue to make mistakes. He has actually given me some great advice over the years. Most I followed and some I wish I followed.

I will always be grateful for your words of wisdom Starfe and your friendship. Please never stop telling me how it is. The best thing I like about you is that you don't BS and you tell it like it is.

Anyway, it's now almost 2 AM and believe it or not I'm just getting home from a dinner party. Tomorrow is a workday. I just don't know how these people do it. I was at a dinner party with about 35 people. It's surreal to see little 1 and 2 year olds running around at 1:30 AM. Granted, most people don't actually start working till about 10 AM here but still.

I have been invited by a really nice, beautiful girl to go to Montevideo next weekend so I'll probably do it. I think it's a 3 day trip so it will be interesting to see how Montevideo is. Goodnight fellas.

Saint

09-17-04, 18:38

I just bought tickets today to go to Montevideo, Uruguay, by the Buquebus ferry. I don't need to travel across the border because I have my student visa that will cover living here without the hassles but like I said.. I was invited by a girl that isn't from here that must go to extend her tourist visa.

After reading Dickhead's uneventful trip to Colonia (thanks for posting it DH), Montevideo should be a better option. I hear the city is beautiful and many tell me it's like a smaller BA so we'll see if that's true. I'm going for 3 days next week. I leave next friday so I'll post on my adventures there when I return. The cost for a "4 star" NH Hotel with a view of the river was 298 pesos per person which included 2 nights/3 days plus the ferry ride there. I offered to pay the 144 pesos per person extra fee to avoid taking the 2.5 hour bus ride. If you take the ferry to Colonia then the 2.5 hour bus ride you can avoid the 144 peso per person fee but I just can't stand to be in a boat 2.5 hours then a bus 2.5 hours. I'm trying to save money but I think some things are worth paying for.

This actually might be a good option for those of you wanting to take a little trip with a novia but I'll report my opinion/observations when I get back. I really encourage everyone living here to post whatever helpful information they can. You may not think it's too important but anything that might help someone moving/living here will be great.

Saint

P.S. Today's tip of the day for those buying property here. I bought property insurance today for one of my apartments. Those of you buying apartments will be happy to know that insurance is VERY cheap here. You can buy a decent policy that will cover about $40,000 US worth of damage, $10,000 US worth of furniture replacement and alot of other things included for less than 350 pesos ($117 US) per YEAR. You don't need to insure the apartment for the price you paid. $40,000 I would think would be adequate to reconstruct an average size apartment. I could be wrong though.

Seismo

09-17-04, 19:10

Saint: On insurance

In many situations you can be held liable for a fire that starts in your apartment but fire/smoke/water damage spreads to neighbors apartment. Your neighbor and/or their insurance company can try to recover from you. It is rare when damage is confined to only one unit.

I do not have any knowledge of insurance law in BsAs, but I know this is the case in Mexico City, and most parts of U.S.

You might check with your insurance company or call some private claims adjuster service.

You may find that you may need more coverage in these high risk situations. [drunken weekly tenants on vacation in high rise buildings]

Dickhead

09-17-04, 21:12

Grocery shopping in BA

This week I looked at buying a market basket of groceries at the three major chains: Disco, Coto, and Norte. I won't bore you with all the items, but it did not include any alcohol. Pasta, eggs, dairy products, cold meats, juice, just standard stuff. No non-food items. Results:

Norte 44,92
Disco before considering "Disco Pesos" 44,68
Coto 43,94
Disco after considering DP 43,02

Disco pesos are scrip they offer on "sale" items. It can be used from 24 hours after issuance up until 30 days. Also if you get a "Disco Plus" card, while you get no savings, you get 1 "Disco Point" for each 3 pesos you spend. These points can be redeemed for things like glassware, towels, etc. An example is you can get a set of drinking glasses for 225 points.

So Disco seems to be the best if you take and remember to use the Disco pesos. I decided on the items I would price without considering whether or not Disco pesos were offered but I did use them as a "tie breaker" when deciding which brands to buy. However:

1) You can't weigh your fruits and vegetables at the register at Disco or Coto, only at Norte. That means standing in line a second time.
2) Coto's stores are dingy and run down.
3) Norte has beer on sale at 15% off every Saturday and wine at 15% off either Friday or Sunday (I don't buy wine too often).
4) Disco periodically offers on Fri-Sun 15% or even 20% off on the first five items you run through the register.
5) Disco frequently has cute "booth bunnies" giving out free alcohol. I have sampled several types of wine and also Fernet which is 100% proof. If Norte and Coto's do this I have never seen it. I don't go to Coto's much.

Casas de cambio

I previously posted that Montevideo cambio on Tucumán and San Martín often had a bit better rate than other places. They have moved to the Florida mall and for whatever reason, their rate is now normally inferior to Paris Cambio on Santa Fe between Suipacha and Esmeralda.

Hope that helps.

Bacchus9

09-18-04, 03:31

Saint / Andres / Vegas 2

Thank you all for your insights and practical suggestions. So helpful focusing on what's on the "other side" of this tranformation. It's a long way back to buy a lime for the gin and tonic, so to speak. This is going to be quite a 3 months getting organized, dropping the excess baggage and loading up those 70 lbs boxes for travel to say nothing of running out the clock on the soon to be former life at the busiest time of year. I think I'll give myself a vacation for the first 2-3 weeks in a hotel in Buenos Aires with room service. Seems I'm forever making lists to organize and playing them out, your suggestions on problem solving in advance Saint are well taken. Ditto the bit about the student visa and no new boxes of goods. I'm really inclined to sell it, store the keepsakes and start fresh with a few pictures on the wall and orange crates for furniture until I can pick some pieces out in those great looking furniture stores.

Vonage, high speed internet connections and a mattress stuffed with one dollar bills for emergencies make working from Buenos Aires possible. I've been able to tie in a small export project as well, we'll see how that goes. Regards the banks, I use Citibank, and found while I was in Buenos Aires that I could manipulate my U. S. accounts online as usual and make peso withdrawals up to $900 daily without any atm penalties. There's one conveniently located on Santa Fe, not far from 1707. The conversion rate varied daily but looked as good or better than what I saw on the street in Buenos Aires. Having more than one account probably means you can withdraw your maximum daily from each account if you need to. Is that the reason you suggest several internet bank accounts?

The best part here, I can come back and reread all this as needed.

Saint

09-18-04, 12:31

Speaking of grocery stores. I find myself hating when I have to go. I usually hit the Disco near my apartment in Recoleta. I'm not sure of the other locations but the one I go to is always very busy and there are long lines. It's not uncommon to stand there waiting for a good 25 minutes or so. Those of you that only have a few items (less than 10) the express lane(s) are on the far left. The lanes in the middle or the right that say "envios" are used for everyone that has over 10 items and also they can deliver to your hotel/apartment.

I guess I do need to go grocery shopping more though. I can drastically but my dining out budget if I started to cook some. To give you an idea. You can get a good cut of steak for around 6 pesos and it's a very good sized portion. That same steak I get delivered is usually around 15 pesos with a small sized portion of a vegtable and I always give them a 1 peso tip too.

I notice that some of the more affluent people here just have live in maids or maids that come all day and clean and cook dinner and go home. Now I see why. Dining out can definitely add up here. I've been getting requests to meet up with guys and I have met up with some but unfortunately I probably won't meet up with too many more due to financial and time constraints. Hopefully they understand.

Dickhead

09-18-04, 13:56

I use the Disco on R. Peña near Juncal and I don't think I've waited more than 10 minutes. Coto on Santa Fe and Riobamba is much worse. Norte is busy but has more cashiers so it evens out. There are certain times of the day to avoid. 1-2 PM is bad. Some Discos are definitely worse than others. The one on Talcahuano and Marcelo T is ridiculous.

One advantage of going shopping almost every day is I can almost always use the 10 item lane and it isn't too bad. Avoid the lines where people can pay their utility bills.

Note that you can always phone your order in to Disco and have it delivered although that is a bit of a cluster fuck as well. And on the subject of maids, the "affluent" have them do the grocery shopping on their way in to work.

Because I like to cook, I also like to grocery shop so I don't find it burdensome. Plus I love those booth bunnies with the Fernet and Coke samples. You gotta look at grocery shopping as just another opportunity to flirt with chicas, and you will be okay.

Oh well, off to Norte for beer at 15% off.

Andres

09-18-04, 16:01

Maids

Those who can afford a maid would really benefit from it, especially people like Saint who work all day. Went coming back home at night , you find a tasty, fresh meal ready for a short microwave heating (she will buy food and cleaning accessories for you, comparing prices if necessary), your clothes clean and ironed (pressed), your room neat, and your bed arranged, not mentioning your home bills paid at the local Pago Facil store.

You don't need to have her more than 5 hours a day, 4 days a week. That way, you can legally hire her without becoming your employee.

Supermarkets

Jumbo is the most expensive, but the best restorted of delikatessen and fine products. Coto is the cheapest, not bad for my taste (the one at Pueyrredon and French is very big and good). I place Norte between the former 2, and Carrefour close to Jumbo.

Some small fruit and vegetable stores provide good produce at an affordable price.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Saint

09-18-04, 16:40

You guys are absolutely right. I have a maid come in 2 times a week right now. She does cleaning but now I'll have her do grocery shopping too. The Disco on Quintana in Recoleta is ridiculously busy and I don't have time to wait in line like I have been doing. I was going to do Dickhead's method of shopping by the day but I find at the end of the day I don't even have the energy to go to the store. The other day when I did to only buy less than 10 items, I still stood in line for almost 13 minutes or so. I hate waiting in lines. It's the worst for me.

My maid offered to cook for me and I turned her down but I'm going to think twice about it now. She is horrible at ironing clothes though and I have to pay to take my shirts to the cleaners anyway. I can pay all my utilities online with my bank account so that's not a problem.

Andres is spot on with his call on supermarkets. Jumbo IS the most expensive but they have the biggest assortment of good food and products. They also have various US products like various potato chips and stuff like A1 sauce and BBQ sauce. I've only been to the Coto at Pueyrredon/French and it's quite nice. I actually bought an apartment in the building right next to the store on the corner of French so it will be VERY convenient for those that rent that one.

I'll think about using the maid for more things. Once I get my apartments up and running it might actually be cheaper to just hire a maid and put her on salary. Maybe Andres can post the benefits and negatives of that plan. In any event, I'll post my results if I use the maid more and post how it is going.

Bacchus9,

Good luck with your move. Helping one another out is what it's all about. It's a HUGE move so take your time and do it right. I suggested opening up accounts with online banks because you could have problems with your ATM card if you only have 1 or 2 bank accounts. For example, last week one of my banks was having a problem due to a computer glitch and ATM withdrawals weren't possible for 2 days. Having multiple accounts enables you to access money in case you need to. As I posted earlier, banks like Bankdirect and Netbank let you pull out 1500 pesos per transaction per day. Good luck.

Saint

09-18-04, 17:40

Picking up packages at the Main Post Office in Buenos Aires

For those of you living here that receive packages from the USA, note that most likely it will be held at the Main post office. (Correo Argentina - Central Postal Internacional). It is located near the intersection of Antartida y Comodoro Py near Puerto Madero and the Retiro. It is open Monday through Friday from 10 AM to 5 PM.

Make sure you go with your passport! They will NOT accept a photocopy of your passport or your US driver's license. You walk in, take a number and wait in line. I waited a good 20 minutes yesterday and got to the front of the line only to discover that they won't give out packages without your actual passport.

If you have things sent here with an overnight shipper like Federal Express you don't have to worry about it. I had things overnighted with Fed Ex and had no problems receiving it at my office. I also had a GSM cellphone I purchased from a company in Australia and it was shipped via an overnight service and I had no problems either.

I had my amigo, Starfe mail me 2 GSM cellphones via US Global Priority mail and it took exactly 2 weeks to get (so much for "Priority" huh?). Then I received a card saying I needed to pick it up at the address I posted above. I am posting this so you make sure you bring your passport and don't have to wait in line like I did. I'll try picking it up again on Monday morning. I hope I don't have any big taxes I have to pay on them.

Amantelondres

09-18-04, 18:33

Saint

I believe that at some stage you will need to pay the maid's Obra Social. As you say, Andres probably knows. I'll find out more when i get there. You could of course negotiate an "all-inclusive" package as long as she's good looking!!! That way you might be able to avoid paying her social security as her main job will be to keep you happy....the rest is just to fill in time!

Andres

09-19-04, 12:49

Maids, part 2

My family had a legally-hired maid (a rarity here, where 95% of the maids are unregistered) for 20 years. This provided advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages:

- The lady, given that you provide her a legal job for the first time, should become more faithful to you. Not always true, but anyway the links are strengthened.

- You avoid legal headaches in case that the "doméstica" gets upset and suits you (happens very seldom, but happens).

Disadvantages:

- Over the years, the natural purchase power of the maid's salary gets growing. By the end of the 90s, our maid did ar$800/mo (when 1 Peso = 1 Dollar), plus $ar250 of jubilación (retirement contributions and) and obra social. That was A LOT of money for a maid, to the point that some classmates at the university asked me to fire her and hire them to do that job. Even after the devaluation, it is still good money to be earned by a maid.

- Legal workers get a mandatory "aguinaldo" (13th salary), so your maid will cost 8% more just for being legal (with the corresponding increase in retirement taxes).

- Maids usually are good and honest ladies, but severely limited in intellectual and leadership skills. That is, don't expect her to "think by herself" or solve problems out of the box. She needs to be directed for almost EVERY move, as a computer program. That is, she cannot solve some problems as your professional coworker, so don't count on her for complex problems.

Overall. if your expenditures for ahving a legal maid are not too high, I recommend to hire her legally.

Comments:

- If you plan to have a legal maid, I STRONGLY recommend that you go to the Maids Union (Sindicato de Empleadas Domésticas - Montevideo between Cordoba and Viamonte). There, you may get information about the "collective agreement" (between government, union and employers) of what is a fair salary, for instance, or what "profession codes" to fill in the formularies for avoiding bureaucratic hassles in the future.

- Ask for information on special retirement regulations at the Maids Union. Since illegal employment in that field is so high, government issues special "hiring" programs that alleviate the tax burden for employers, in order to increase retirement funds collection. For instance, I learned that, by 1997, the government issued a "special retirement regulation" for maids that significantly reduced the burden (from ar$250/mo to ar$150/mo).

- The obra social for maids is included in the retirement payments (some ar$50-60 of the whole ar$150 correspond to the obra social).

- I STRONGLY DISCOURAGE you to get sexually involved with your maid. First, because if she was really cute she would work at Cattos and not "at your boliche". Second, because these poor girls are weak, unprotected and somewhat emotionally limited human beings (living far from family, without a degree, without much education, coming from a poor machist home in a slump). You open the Pandora Box is she gets attached to you (Did you ever wonder why those lame soup operas almost always revolve around poor maids marrying rich guys?).

Hope this helps,

Andres