View Full Version : Renting Property
For those of you looking to escape the hotel rates and privacy issues, I recommend you do a Google seach with these words:"inmobiliaria aquilar buenos aires". This translates to real estate rentals.
I recommend www. bytargentina.com for the best information site and a way to compare square meter prices, neighborhoods, apartment ammenities (you WANT a digital button phone), dates of availability. Buy a good map of B.A. so you can find neighborhoods and streets. Use it with the bytargentina maps t locate yourself close to the action. (Recoleta, Barrio Norte, Palermo Micro center, San Martin, and Belgrano)
For you DSL users, Your landlord can arrange to install a high speed connection thru Fibertel or Telefonica. This may take several days and I don't know the fees. Most apts have cable TV so that installation issue is solved.
IMO the best is www.bytargentina.com and has real reasonable rates and charges a minimal commision.
The Buenos Aires Herald newspaper has several providers, most of which are way overpriced for their units and commisions. www.apartmentsba.com and reynoldspropiedades.com are pricey and have, IMO, inflated rates for the general rental market by getting owners to list with them and jacking the prices up to cover their high commisions. These firms offer good properties and are reputable, but you can expect to pay a healthy premium for their service.
www.easyrent.com.ar and gozalezpaglierie.com charge stiff commisions.
My personal experience with goz..paglier.. has been poor in that the price was raised from their posted internet sites, The apt was not cleaned and the plumbing and TV needed repairs which is done on YOUR time but no expense. ALWAYS ask what is the commision on top of the unit rental!
So, renter beware of hype and false promises. The renter above you can be your worst enemy when they clomp around in hard heeled shoes or drop crap on the floor or have a dog that is the hound of the Baskervilles or party on until you want to call the Hell's Angles for backup.
Before you sign a lease, Try to rent the place for Fri, Sat ,Sun and pay a premium for this time. Once you sign the lease and give deposit money your ass is theirs. Meet your neighbors FIRST!! DO TEST all plumbing, air-con, heat ,electric devices and lighting, linen supplies,kitchen utensils, windows and doors. They love to slam doors - must be a macho thing. My cheap landlady wouldn't reimburse me for 3 two peso light bulbs! Try to get a unit that is ¨contrafrente¨which means in the rear of the building, away from the fckn buses, traffic, and stink.
Your apt can make or break you stay in this BEAUTIFUL city. Be careful and do diligence in selecting your crib. Better you should spend two weeks in a hotel (chica friendly) and spend your time investigating apartments than to pay an outrageous sum for an abode that you will hate. And, dont be afraid to say you want a micro-wave, cleaning supplies, better tv, whatever. They want your money so get everything up-front, in writing with delivery dates. Better yet, compose a list of your wants, have them sign it, and state you will purchase the items and deduct from the monthly rent.
One last but real important issue is monthly operating expense. bytargentina spells this out in their disclosure section of services and costs. Usually, there are no add-ons. My experience is you may have to pay for Cable TV $40usd/mo), water-gas-electric ($20usd/mo), Phone ($5 & up). Building expenses can be $80usd and up, BUT these should be borne by the landlord including pest (aka COCKROACHES) control.
I hope I have not scarred everyone to go to a hotel. Not my intention! With over 5 months here I've heard a lot of stories about rip offs, high prices and bad service, bad deposit refunds by greedy landlords and agents, promises made but not kept, on and on.
RENTER BEWARE!
Best of Luck scoring the pad of your dreams.
Jackpot
PS. Thanks Jefe Jackson for this new forum to help us pilgrims here find our way in this Magic Country!
AllIWantIsLove
02-23-05, 02:15
I visited the Mansion when I was in BA in January. When I saw the pool all I could think of was how wonderful it would be to have a pool like that with a few naked chicas in it. Chica soup! So ... is it possible to rent a much smaller version of the Mansion, with its own private pool? Where would such places be listed?
Thanks, Bob
Just to add a couple of thoughts to Jackpot's excellent advice.
One, start your search early. I gave myself one month to find an apartment here, having all ready settled into a temporary one with all the conveniences of phone and DSL to aid the search. It can take forever to get a response even from byt. It can take time to contact the owners, and get keys to view the apartment, most agents don't answer the phone on weekends, time just to go look and time to negociate the deal. My advice, give yourself two months.
I found the classified listings at Il Nacion, one of the major newspapers here, to be the best "live" source of apartments: http://clasificados.lanacion.com.ar/inmueblesRespuesta.asp
You can sort by barrio and they identify new posts every day with "hoy". You'll spend some time figuring out the contracted words in Spanish and what they mean. You'll need to speak Spanish for most conversations or get someone who does to follow up your choices but it's by far, IMHO, the best resource.
If you give up on that route you're in the hands of agents who'll help you in English. I can't speak to all but they are going to hammer on a high fee for "finding it" for you.
Jackpot,
You posted some good information. I did laugh when you said that my company offers properties that are overpriced. The reason why WSG has never been and will never be a source of rentals for me is because the vast majority of WSG guys are guys that are cheap and simply won't anty up to stay in a nicer place. The way the rental market works is based on pure supply and demand. Why would I offer an apartment rental at less than a certain price when the apartment stays busy 27 days a month and books 4 months ahead of time? I have been renting out apartments here for almost 3 years. I really understand this business.
My company offers quality apartments. Granted some apartments that I don't own or manage the quality is not as good as my managed properties. We only act as a listing service for several owners. (Although within a year or so I plan on ditching all the properties I don't own or manage. I'm getting enough clients now where that gameplan is feasible after a year or so.) The ones I own or manage are great properties. Properties like A1 on my site are true 5 star properties with high-speed internet access, luxury furniture and lighting, local cell phone and a USA phone line where you can make/receive unlimited calls to the USA. It is much much better than a hotel room that is priced a lot higher.
Also, keep in mind that I know my competition and I don't really think I have too much serious competition. The local companies are horrible at answering emails or addressing problems when you have them. I've used several companies in town including some that Jackpot mentioned. Try getting your AC fixed when it breaks or having problems. I've rented several apartments (including the one I am in now) and I've had tons of problems where the company did nothing for me. I had to endure a month of no AC, refrigerator breaking for a few weeks, not getting my security deposit back, etc.
Also, Bacchus mentioned other sources. Yes, you can find more affordable alternatives but the honest truth is that most of them are what I call "crap rentals". You can spin your wheels and spend a lot of time going from apartment to apartment trying to find something. Also, I have tried this and try dealing with some of the locals that are plain theives. I negotiated a contract with a local owner only to have her keep changing it on me up until the date of the signing of the contract. I finally walked away. Some of you guys make it sound like it's so easy dealing with locals. It's not. I deal with local owners on a daily basis. Most are not reasonable people to deal with.
What my company does is makes the process easier of finding a good rental. No hassles, we are quick to communicate and email, all my employees speak English, and no problems with paying by bankwire or paypal.com. There is a cost for convenience and quality and most people realize that. It's the plain and simple reason why my company is growing as fast as it is.
Jackpot, thanks for mentioning that we are reputable and offer good properties. What I'm doing is not rocket science. I basically publically posted my business plan for the past several years. My goal was becoming the largest property management company of foreign owned property in Argentina within 3 years of moving here. We are on pace to do that. I am proud to say that I am working on several larger projects that involve buying land and building apartment buildings with 30 or 40 units. I'm sure it will take time but I do see it happening in the future.
I posted a long time ago that tourism would explode and it has. I see that trend continuing for the foreseeable future. I also posted on property prices and I have been dead on target. I see prices continuing to escalate. As I said before, many foreigners are going to make a fortune on real estate here.
Good luck all.
Saint, if we WSG guys are so cheap, why do you tout your pricey apartments
on the wsg and argentina sites? Maybe you should stick to the BA herald
and leave us ¨cheap¨ wsg members to our own devices.
By the way anty up is correctly spelled as ante up.
Jackpot
Jackpot,
Hey, as always I call them like I see them. Jackson is free to remove the section from "Saint" on WSG. I already told him and others that WSG has never been and will never be a serious source of business for me. I think I've had a total of 4 WSG guys book apartments with me in 6 months since moving here.
I already have told Jackson that I probably won't be posting any posts anymore as I've gotten too busy. No need to tout on WSG and I won't be posting any more apartment posts here. Really, the biggest source of business for me is referrals from others that have already stayed in my properties, repeat guests that stay in my properties each/every time they come to BA, Google and vacation websites.
By the way, it's alquilar and not aquilar as you previously posted. Good luck to you.
Saint
Daddy Rulz
02-25-05, 05:58
Sorry to hear your not going to be posting anymore, I've learned a ton from you. I have read with interest about the development of your business and have to say I admire your courage. You saw an opportunity and bet a lot in taking advantage of it. I'll miss reading about it.
2 very clever guys who know there areas of expertise and mark it like a lion soils his hunting ground. They will be missed.
Starfe
Sao Paulo is wonderful this time of year. Ass to ass or should I say wall to wall.
Young & Restless
02-26-05, 01:21
2 very clever guys who know there areas of expertise and mark it like a lion soils his hunting ground. They will be missed.
Starfe
Sao Paulo is wonderful this time of year. Ass to ass or should I say wall to wall.
Didn't Andres leave too?
Jaimito Cartero
02-26-05, 06:36
I think there are a lot of different type of guys who come to BA. Some guys will stay in a 30 peso a night place, while some can afford the 800 peso a night. Most come because of the great variety of chicas, and the reasonable prices.
I stayed in a hotel the first time, and rented an apartment for the second. If I come for a week or more, I would certainly always stay in an apartment.
I've had good luck with ByT, and will rent with them when I come later this year. They have decent pictures, and I've always gotten a response within 24 hours.
If there's anywhere YMMV it has to be with the hunt for an apartment. The downside of Byt if you're looking for something beyond 180 days is the max stay limitation they put on most aparments. That and the long delay I experienced getting a response even after talking to Julia on the phone in English.
As I look out from the 13th floor across Buenos Aires, basically a landscape of apartment buildings short and tall one cannot help but think that there's an apartment out there with the qualities I want at a price in line with what Argentinos are accustomed to pay. When I tell Argentinos what I pay for my apartment they blanche and get eyes the size of saucers. It's about 50% over whatever they have in their minds. I cannot rationalize it enough to make it make sense for them.
I have no quarrel with Saint and his services. He has certainly helped me by collapsing the process of finding an apartment and like always there's a price to pay for service. As long as you recognize that fact, which he makes no bones about, going in you won't be wrenching at the cost of an apartment in the 1K or above range when you're looking at apartments in the papers for $400 to $900 US. I do think he gets a little off the mark on the subject of cutting through problems with landlords or owners and getting things fixed as I've found even in the apartments I've rented via Saint that getting things fixed and getting things negotiated out is fraught with considerations. Saint has been there to mediate but the fact is you're dealing with Argentinos and just like el sexo, it's intense and personal. Kissing is optional. Things move at a different pace. After 2 months the bidet is finally fixed and not flooding the bathroom floor each time a chica uses it, por ejemplo.
I'll miss Saint on the board as he's been generous with information and I've often wondered if I'd of had the brass to move here without posts like his and others. On the other hand perhaps others without the self interest that always skews Saint's posts will emerge, Jackpot step forward, and cut the Gordian knot of renting aparments long term in Buenos Aires. It's a huge market and as always the prospect of finding a great apartment at a great price is swimming out there like a Hemingway fishing expedition.
Time, patience, Spanish, determination and a lawyer.
Yossarian99
02-28-05, 17:23
Hello all,
I just arrived in BA and am now looking for an apartment for 3-6 months. There are web sites with some nice listings, but I am trying to save a good chunk of $ by renting from an owner directly.
I discovered that the renter pays the agent a commision equal to at least half a month's rent and sometimes more. In my case, that translates to $250-300. In the case of web sites like BYTArgentina.com, it doesn't appear that they charge an outright commision, rather they roll it into the rent, which is higher than equivalent units I've seen listed elsewhere.
I am willing to pay a reasonable commision (about $50 to $100) to an agent willing to help me for a day or two, but I will not pay $300+.
If anyone has been in contact with the owner of an apartment anywhere in Palermo, Recoleta, Bario Norte, or San Telmo, I would greatly appreciate their contact info.
Yos
Member #1036
02-28-05, 17:47
I was one of Saints stupid customers who he promised the world to get me to buy a apartment in BA. I did buy an apartment but where was Saint?
His answer, I have bigger and better clients to deal with than my little chickenshit apartment.
So there I am in BA going through the motions trying to find workers and learning the whole system. After the purchase, which he still did not have the courtesy to even meet me one day while I'm in BA, asks me do I still want him to manage my apartment.
Get real!!!..He brags about being the biggest foreign property management company in BA. Perhaps, but if he did business in the US like he does in BA he would be bankrupt.
Just my 2 cents. Anyone want anymore info...pm me.
Member 1036,
No offense but you are the perfect example of the WSG cheap guy. I didn't promise you the world. More like I told you I would help you find you a good apartment. You are the only WSG client and the only one that complained almost the entire process. You are in the real estate business in the USA and you expected everything to be the same as the USA when everything is VERY different here. Really just about everything is different here than the USA. The process is very different and things come up. I don't think you ever appreciated how great the process is in the USA compared to South America.
It was frustrating dealing with you. I wouldn't post other than the fact that there are 2 sides to every story. You wanted to spend very little but you wanted some really great apartment close to Recoleta. I found you a great apartment for relatively little money. It was almost impossible finding something for the amount you spent that would yield good rental results but I did.
When I tried to provide you referrals to good honest people you came back with responses like, "I'll have the doorman downstairs install it for cheaper". That is the God's honest truth. I offered to help you with quality people yet you opted to always do the cheapest method whether it was the right method or not. (Having the doorman install a split air-conditioner is not the proper method). I tried to give you referrals to honest people but you chose to do it all yourself. I told you that I had painters, electricians, plumbers, etc.
Frankly, after listening to you complain so much I just got frustrated dealing with you. I have the chain of emails to document everything if need be. If you are going to tell a story the entire story should be told. Actually, maybe one of my clients that reads this board can chime in because he was with me I believe 2 times when I talked to this Member 1036 guy on the phone. He can give his input of what was said. I do remember my client saying something how he couldn't believe what a piker this guy was being. I helped this guy buy 2 apartments and he didn't seem to complain at all.
You expected to charge a premium for a rental without wanting to invest any money. That simply isn't realistic. I wanted to buy that apartment that you bought for myself and even up to the last minute I offered to buy it if you didn't want to. If you were so unhappy with the apartment you should have accepted my offer to purchase it. That is a great apartment and you got it at a great price. My offer still stands, if you are so unhappy with it, I'll buy it from you for the price you paid, plus the realtor's commission.
Dealing with you is a prime example of what I would call a WSG cheap ass. Not all guys from WSG are like you. I've met a couple of really great guys. Just my 2 cents. If anyone wants more info... PM me.
P.S. It wasn't your little "chickenshit apartment". It was more like dealing with a client that was complaining all the time and perhaps one of the biggest pikers I've ever met. Good luck.
Member #1036
03-02-05, 22:00
I'm going to use your worker to paint my apartment and you tell me it will cost about $1,500 US. And I'm cheap? I'll let everyone else make the decision and yes anyone can PM me and I also will supply emails of Saint to back me up and this is a dead issue from here.
I NEVER quoted u$s 1,500. I quoted 1500 PESOS.(And I said that was the maximum). I said that the painter would have to go there and see the apartment to give you an exact estimate. I have nothing to do with the prices charges by the contractors and I only use people that are dependable and know what they are doing and charge fair prices. I offered to give you the phone numbers of several trained, affordable and capable people and you didn't want any of the numbers.
Yes, this is a dead issue for me as well. Funny that you are the only one complaining and the only one that complained throughout the entire process. My apartments are booked solid and so are those that I am managing. Honestly, I wish you the best of luck with your apartment. I stand by my call that it's a beautiful apartment and you got a great deal for it. Good luck.
HobbyInHouston
03-03-05, 22:25
I was in BA buying my second apartment when this was going on. Saint was very busy but he still went shopping with me. He even found time to have a lot of lunches and a few dinners with me. I am not paying him to do it either. He offered to do it gratis when he first moved down there. Now that he is busy he has kept his word. With all there is to do in BA you wont believe what he talked most about. He talked about some guy who wanted to save 100 or 200 pesos by letting the doorman paint the apartment. That same guy wanted the doorman to install the AC to save some money, which i think violates the warranty of your ac. When you are sick you go to the doctor not the doorman. Saint has never quoted me a price for someone else’s service. He has given me an estimate and then gives me the price after the contractor looks it over. With the exception of my sound proof windows every contractor finished on time and on schedule. The windows were late but they were in before the first guest.
I don’t have a lot of time to use my vacation. If I had a few months to shop around I am sure I would be able to do it for less. But I am also sure I would get bitten buy a shark which would offset the savings.
I am not going to lie, I went over my initial budget by quite a bit. But that was my choice. I saw the difference in quality of custom furniture vs good furniture in a shop and thought it was worth the difference. I know I will make it up by staying more full and being able to charge more. I know what I like in an apartment of a hotel when I use my precious vacation time. I don’t want to slum it when I travel, I am not 20 backpacking through Europe anymore. That was fun though.
Right now its hard to get a hotel room in BA. Apartments are not that easy to get anymore. So you bought some Square meters in BA in a good location at a time when supply it tight. You should be making money on that apartment. Who do you want to rent to and how much can you get for it. Lets suppose an apartment same size same feature is next door to you and it is completely tricked out. It might get 125 to 150 per day. But if you have bare wires holding a light bulb, a mattress on the floor, urine stained couch, well picture a crack house. How much can you get for it and who would stay there.
The most expensive thing is the Square meter. The rest is some fraction of that. Calculate over 5 years the cost of the furniture vs the increased rent. Good furniture, higher rent means better people and less ware and tare on your stuff. Good things like a good mattress last longer and the cost per day can actually be less than a cheaper one that needs to be changed in 2 years.
Why did you buy an apartment? I assume to make money. You have the apartment. Its in a good location. Do you want to make $30 a day or $100 a day? Do you want 5% occupancy per month or 95% occupancy? Who will collect your rent, pay your bills, get someone to fix things when they break?
Saint has had $250,000 cash of my money in his account. He did not take it. So I know he will not cheat me on the rent. I can trust him. Who do you know in BA that would not skip town with $250k or your money. And that was just my money not the other guys money. If I could spend an extra $5k and get and extra $5k per year 100% ROR wouldn’t I be stupid not to. What about 50% ROR? What is you number to do the deal. If you were expecting to pay for your apartment in 2 years you were wrong. Like any investment you need to do the numbers. One on the biggest numbers for me is the cost of the ticket and the time on the plane. BA is a long way from the rest of the world. Most people don’t go to monger. When they get to BA they want comfort, style, a little class. Yes yes a little ass is great, but that is not most people. So figure out who you want to rent to and target that audience.
If you want the low end then you made the right choice because who cares if it is not a professional paint job. In the U.S I can do a professional paint job, latex on latex on top of sheet rock you cant go wrong. But their ant no sheet rock in BA. They also got all the kinds of paint they don’t and cant sell anymore in the U.S.A. That means if you paint is old and they put the wrong stuff on top, you will pay for another strip and paint job.
It’s a scary process to buy property in a foreign country. I hope it works out for you. If you are snake bit and want to unload the property it will probably sell. If you thought you could buy a mansion for $50 bucks then you are probably really disappointed. Two years ago you could have gotten that apartment for a lot less. But we cant do anything about the past. So my suggestion is focus on the future, fix your objectives, make a plan, stick to the plan, change the plan if it isn’t working. So sell the apartment or rent it out. If you rent it out, find someone you trust, find someone who keeps it full, and find some who doesn’t mind your cheap ways.
For somebody who operates in a service industry, Saint is sure quick to attack his customers and, even more disturbingly, potential customers.
Do I need to do business with somebody who posts that he holds people like me in contempt?
There are plenty of people to rent apartments through in Buenos Aires. I think I can find one who won't go insulting me on the internet. What's next, posting my personal details because he's pissed at me? For somebody with such apparent anger at his clientele, I wouldn't put that past him.
Hi Hunt99,
Your observation is accurate. While Saint may provide good service, anyone who even mildly questions, challenges or critizes him gets attacked big time.
His words and actions do not seem to equate. It would appear to question his desire to 'provide top U.S. level service' in Buenos Aires, which he claims is lacking here and he will provide.
However, since he is moving on and leaving us 'cheap' mongers on WSG, everyone benefits.
Suerte,
Bruce
Stowe, I should add that I'm sure Saint has had problems with customers - anybody who has customers certainly will. But a good businessman doesn't engage in internet pissing contests or accuse all people reading this board of being cheap.
One thing I'm not, is cheap.
On the other hand, I'm also not going to rent an apartment from somebody who posts:
"Dealing with you is a prime example of what I would call a WSG cheap ass. Not all guys from WSG are like you. I've met a couple of really great guys."
My question is, which of you is one of those "couple of really great guys"? Because I'd like to take a whiff of your behind since your shit obviously doesn't stink! :)
Hunt99,
I'm not attacking my "customers". Heck, I'm not attacking anyone. As I posted, I really don't consider WSG guys my customers. I'm not engaging in internet pissing contests. I'm telling it like it is. As I mentioned, not all of you guys are cheap. What I've found over the several years on the forum is that the majority of guys that have emailed or PM'ed me are what I would consider "cheap". There is certainly nothing wrong with being cheap either. Again, I'm not attacking anyone. Anyway, as Stowe said, everyone benefits by the cheap guys not working with me.
Again, nothing wrong with being cheap. The only reason I took time to post was to explain my side of what happened with the guy complaining. Yes, in any service industry you will have complaints. It's inevitable. What I strive to do is get back to people quickly, offer great customer service, surround myself with great employees and offer great properties. As I mentioned before, I plan to slowly dump all the local properties that I don't own or manage off my page slowly over the next 3 years to better control quality and customer service. The locals aren't the best to work with when it comes to that.
I have no knock against WSG guys at all. As mentioned, I've met some real class act guys. My beef is from guys that email trying to nickle and dime every posted price,etc. The fact remains that I could never get another WSG booking and it would have 0% effect on my bottom line. That is just a fact. Funny one of my clients was working out in a gym when they told some dude from this board they were my client and he grumbled that my properties were overpriced (seriously funny since this guy referred some realtor on this board that has been incorrectly charging Americans a 2.5% tax that should be waived). They laughed because they were buying a property that I would manage. A property is only overpriced if it's priced at a level where it remains unbooked. If a property is at $1,000 per night and stays booked 27 days a month than it means it's not overpriced. Pure supply and demand which many on this board seem to have trouble understanding. That is my only beef with many that email me.
Many of you probably own your own businesses, or work in an environment where you deal with clients. How would you feel if most of the phone calls or emails you get from one particular group was always trying to negotiate with your prices. Where the majority of the times you got emails they were always complaining about prices even though your company was very busy already and having no problems selling a product or service. Wouldn't you be qualified to classify the people emailing you a certain way? That is my only point here. The very few that I have dealt with on this forum renting apartments from me were gentlemen that I had no problems with and I think they could say the same thing about me. I opted to give some of them discounted prices because they rented from me before. I offered it because I wanted to not because they demanded it like many emails I get.
There are plenty of companies that rent apartments in Buenos Aires and plenty of business for all of them. As far as anger, I have no anger. I'm probably one of the happiest guys I know. I'm living in one of my most favorite cities in the world and plan to live here the rest of my life. Life is good. Good luck fellas.
Just could not let Saint have the last word.
Jackpot
Ferolga777
03-12-05, 00:41
It is one thing to insult people on purpose and another thing to insult them because of imprecise use of language.
Having studied English literature in college, it is my understanding that "cheap" is negative, but "fruuuuuugal" is positive. Likewise, "stingy" is negative, but, "thriiiiiifty" is positive. It's the magic of connotation.
ferolga
Daddy Rulz
03-12-05, 06:29
Ferolga777
Have you ever noticed though that cheap people think they are frugal but they are really only cheap pr1cks?
One Tree Hill
03-15-05, 22:56
one is frugally thrifty?
I would guess thats borderline cheap!
Also guys remember that some have to be cheap asses while others simply choose to be!
Member #1036
03-21-05, 07:00
Ok Saint...you want to talk about CUSTOMER SERVICE!!! You brag about customer service. Isn't customer service helping a client in a foreign country. At least going with him to the signing. Helping him bring cash from bank to the signing instead of saying "oh its only 4 blocks to the signing and you can just carry it in your pocket". Oh yeah, I'm in a foreign country with poverty around and you tell me to carry 40k cash in my pocket unprotected in the streets.
Let me advice you that customer service is at least meeting your client once face to face. You did not even have time to meet me once nor attempt to.
Also, if I was such a pain in the ass customer, then why a week before closing you gave my name as a referral to other customers.
Cheap? Where in the negotiations did cheap come into play when you were the one to make suggestions on price. Also, as said before, cheap is a very offensive word.
I think this thread has proved enough as just a view from the otherside instead of him bragging about how good he is. If I had at least seen some comments from others before I invested with him, I would have had second thoughts along with some others I spoke to while I was there.
At least others will have a chance to make up their own minds but since Saint thinks most of us are cheap guys, nobody here has any money anyways and so it really doesn't matter.
I've had very positive dealings with Saint. I'm sure that your experiences are as you report. His business has quickly expanded and likely is having some growing pains.
Spassmusssein
06-05-05, 23:44
...one point in advance of member#1036 : never walk arround with big cash. I hope that saint NEVER advised someone to do that.
There are safe and cheap ways for the transport..."even just for 4 blocks"...a lot of investors got robbed, beaten or whatever as someone knew, they walked arround with money.
I am shure...saint will never be robbed here...(joke...sorry for his laptop) ;)
Prices are defined in the market, reading three days "classificados" will show you the exact bases depending on location.
There are FEW real estate brokers with 100% reputation and if you are depending on a "full service" (as lacking language, laws, notarys, taxnumbers eec.) you have got to pay.
Not everything must be payd in cash...I was helping a lot of new guys here for free or they insisted to invite me for a dinner...this is Southamerica ok?
My family is selling an apartment I have and they found a buyer. This customer paid a couple thousand USD to secure the transaction signing a bill, with the remaining to be paid at the time of signing the final papers.
Meanwhile, this customer wanted to get their his furniture into the apartment. He affirmed his best intentions an mentioned a professional link that he had with one of the family members. However, he wasn't allowed to get his furniture inside.
Today, the inmobiliaria called me to mention that the transaction fell. Why? The buyer couldn't secure the money from an apartment he sold some time ago because his own buyer didn't pay him since posession.
Thanks God we didn't let him occupy the apartment!
NEVER EVER LET SOMEONE TAKE POSESSION OF YOUR SELLING PROPERTY BEFORE THE TOTAL CANCELLATION.
This may help you understand why people want cash for a transaction, and all before the transfer of property.
Hope this helps,
Andres
Jaimito Cartero
08-03-05, 02:33
Yes, always good to have cash in hand. Thanks for the heads up! Hopefully you'll get to hang onto the deposit, or resell it for a larger amount.
Does anyone know about breaking apartment leases here? After months of negotiating I'm finally about to sign one. It is for 12 months. Like most people, I was unable to get a garantia. Therefore, the owner is requiring a year's rent as a deposit, which is better for him than the more common rent prepayment. I understand why he would want this - supposedly if a tenant decided in month 12 that he's not leaving and not paying anymore, the landlord would need a couple years in Argentine courts before he can legally remove him. I'm reading over the lease and it looks pretty standard. I've seen one before. It does not specify anything about what would happen if I wanted to leave before the 12-month period expired. I spoke with a few Argentine friends and they said they thought that normally you can break a lease after 6 mos without a penalty, and before 6 mos there might be a 1-2 month penalty. But Ive had nothing confirmed, and have no idea about my rather large deposit. I guess (I'd have some leverage if there was a disagreement and my landlord would not refund my deposit. I could say I'll vacate the apartment when and only when he refunds the deposit. I don't know how this works here.
Any advice appreciated.
Daddy Rulz
08-09-05, 00:33
My girlfriend tells me that because of the difficulty evicting people, most Argeninian evictions are done with a group of guys and a baseball bat. I don't know if there is any truth to this but I would consider it before not moving out.
As far as breaking a lease I'm clueless but I could email some friends if you would like.
Spassmusssein
08-09-05, 01:06
... if you quit before month no. 12, you have to pay a fine of one month.
If you want to leave after month 13 your fine is half month.
"Deslocacion" of a tennant, who does not pay, will cost six months, since the new laws give higher protection to the landlord.
A skilled landlord always wears good English or Hungarian boots
(I recommend "Ludwig Reiter" or "Edward Green") to be able to open a door of a tennant, who does not pay, with a smart sidekick.
If you (as NOT having garantia) will pay 12 months, usually you will never see the money again. A good broker will find you landlords who will accept a deposit of 3-6 months and a revolving payment from the first month aside to be secure.
Thomaso276
08-09-05, 07:47
I have had three leases here. The first was for one year, paid up front with a one month deposit. It was for a grand apartment on Quintana at $900 a month. Got my deposit back less the last months unpaid utility bills.
The second and current is for a modern 2BR 2 Ba also in Recoleta, building with pool, security, gym. Also paid one year up front and upon renewal this past March I paid the second year (with a 5% escalator in the lease) With this apartment I offered only a 2000 pesos deposit. This landlord is a little more profit driven and I am sure will try to stiff me for painting the whole place or some such BS. I know because when we renewed he moaned about undervalue of this years rent becasue rents had gone up and he could get 50% more than what I was paying.
Most other folks I have talked to can get by with 3 months advance rent and then pay monthly. Most deposits are one or two months only to cover unpaid utility bills and some possible damage. I personanly preferred the full year so I could relax and not worry about paying (plus this year my girlfriend understands that if I have the big one while we are playing she has a place to stay until March)
While the rules here are tough and some friends did not agree with me paying a full year, I would never give a full year deposit becasue I doubt you will see it again. Losing a couple hundred on some deposit is another story. You can buy garantia from ads in the Clarin.
Overall the landlords have not been a pain during my three years here. On the subject of garantia I remember telling one landlord (when I rented a small furnished apartment for my girlfriend for a few months - the third lease) who made a big deal out of needing a garantia that a year's rent was a true garantia and that if something happened to me no familiy member was going to fly down for my personal property (electronics, some furniture, etc. Then I pointed out that we were in Argentina where they guaranteed their bonds for all those investors! The took the up front money and two months deposits (this was a pesos deal)
Good luck, but it sounds like one year deposit is way off base. Pay the year, offer one month deposit and relax. If you have to leave after some time you only lose a few hundred bucks. If you have been negotiating for some time the apartment is not generating any money and the landlord will deal. I think sometimes here thereal estate is like the lady's. Some are waiting for the big night of $300 while the majority will take 100 pesos per hour.
Both Spassmusssein and Thomaso are absolutely correct. It just depends on the owner. Many are getting stricter about having a guarantor but generally Americans and foreigners are favored over locals for renting property. Over the years I've leased many properties. Even now I lease several properties. It makes it MUCH easier now that I own several properties and have references from prominent owners that I have rented from over the years. Many now don't make me pay anything in advance and only a one month security deposit. Still, you should know that even if you own property you usually can't act as your own guanantor.
Some apartments typically in really great buildings are tougher. I had to have a guarantor for the new apartment that I'm in now. I moved to a really great apartment on Ave. Alvear right near the Alvear Palace. I had to have a guarantor even though I offered to pay the entire 2 years upfront. I didn't have to end up paying in advance but you will find a good strategy with the locals is to prepay and ask for a substancial discount. Many owners like the safety of getting paid up front so they will offer you a good discount. Also, it can be a good strategy for you as well to lock in the rate no matter what happens with prices. I would guess that the u$s 1,500/month rent that I'm paying now will approach upwards of u$s 2,000/month by next year. Pricey but it's a "Palace". At least I have the price locked in for 2 years.
As the other fellas mentioned, typical legal leases here are 24 months (2 years) Good luck.
Daddy Rulz
08-09-05, 22:22
I'm me, a friend of the family does this. He's a wonderful old guy that walks like a penguin named Billy. He lived in the EEUU for a few years and thinks he speaks English. The garantia will be trutcho (sp) but should work. I have no idea about his rates shop him and if hes ripping you off go elsewhere, but I suspect he might cut you a break with a referal. Talking to him is worth the price of a coffee even if you don't do business.
There are a bunch of thugs linked to the Federal Police who provide this service for around USD 3,000. It is expensive, but cheaper than to replace the whole furniture and decoration destroyed by an angry tenant at the verge of eviction.
Mobs, lawyers, police officers, etc, profit from a slow and cumbersome renting system. It is not an "accident" that this system is inefficient, it is desing to work like that.
Hope this helps,
Andres
Thanks for the responses guys. At least some of you havent been personally burned recently.
A lawyer friend of mine returned one of my messages today and confirmed a lot of what you wrote. One discrepancy - she said the penalty for breaking a lease, which is normally for 24 months, is about 1.5 months rent if breaking before month 6 and 1 months rent for breaking after month 6. Either way, thats not a big penalty. Although this is not specified in my contract, she said it is widely known and also clearly stated by civil law code.
She also said that my deposit legally must be returned (less any deductions for damaged items) upon vacating the apartment even if I break the lease early. I know that once you give someone money here, whether in the form of a loan, deposit, tax retention, etc, it does seem less likely that money will ever be seen again. But I'm taking the leap of faith. I will have some leverage since I will be residing in the asset effectively collaterized by my one-year deposit.
A couple of you mentioned buying and rigging garantias. I recommend not doing this. After being turned down by all my Argentine friends with property in Capital, I made a last ditch effort and visited one of the places that sell garantias. They'll give you one and you only have to pay (the equivalent of one months rent) if your potential landlord accepts it. So I took this document (deed for a similarly-valued property in Once) to the landlord and he said he'd check it out. He called me back some days later informing me that the property got about 20 "hits" per day. Not surprsingly, it was a totally worthless and used-up garantia; there is obviously a system to verify these.
Spassmusssein
08-11-05, 03:23
You can try to fool, but also you can choose to be honest.
False garanties brake always, just take away your money.
There are honest real estate brokers in that city. I do buss with those.
As I mentioned: give 2 or 3 month's deposit and contract a monthly, revolving payment.
You will get it.
PM me if you want to have it this way.
It's just a help from my side, not my business, as I am living here on my own ideas.
Moore,
Wishing thinking your post of, "She also said that my deposit legally must be returned (less any deductions for damaged items) upon vacating the apartment even if I break the lease early". Trust me. Many people here don't care about what the law is. I leased several apartments for the past few years. My first several apartments I never got all the deposit back. One I got no money back at all!
Moore - It doesn't matter what the law is. The locals are masters at evading taxes and withholding funds that are due to you. I remember my first few leases I returned the apartment in perfect condition, I bought a bed with my own money because the owner's bed broke. I let them keep the bed, I fixed several things on my own and they still did NOT return my deposit. NONE OF IT. When I asked for a reason they told me they would send it within 30 days after verifying none of the utility bills were abnormally high. I waited and waited. It was about u$s 700. They stopped returning calls and then finally one day I went to the owner's house and asked and they told me that I was a good tenant but they weren't going to return the deposit. They told me I could sue them and go through the legal system which would probably take 3 years. They wished me good luck.
This was in 2003. I did get a lawyer and filed paperwork. Not so much for the money but moreso because of the principle. It's almost the end of 2005 and no word. In short, don't expect things to work based on what is "legal". The locals are masters at cheating, lying and stealing. There is a reason why there is a guarantee system. Leasing a higher end apartment without prepaying the entire lease upfront or having a good guarantee is difficult. Many locals are hesitant to be a guarantee. They are putting the title to their property up. Many times you can't sell your property while it is being used as a guarantee.
It's also a reason why many locals are no longer dealing with their fellow local citizens. I don't deal with any locals. The few times when I rented to locals I had problems in the apartment. Many locals have no respect and no ethics. Sad...
Beware and good luck.
One Tree Hill
08-11-05, 16:00
Democracy without ethics = poverty and corruption. Hence Latin American will never fully develop like its anglo/Euro friends in other parts of the world (US, Europe, England, Aussie, New Zealand, Canada etc,) Sad but true. At least that keeps pussy cheap for the gringos.
Saint,
Believe me I have no naive delusions about how things work here. I've been living in BA for several years and have a fair amount of experience in local business and law, but not in real estate. That the real estate sector is as dicey as everything else isnt shocking.
In my case, with a large deposit, I will not be accepting any "the check's in the mail" promises. I can't believe that anyone would, except when you're about a few hundred dollars which would not be a huge loss. Tons of people disregard the law here, but I'd still rather not be going against the law. The contract says the deposit will be returned upon vacating the department, it does not say 30 days after vacating it. Granted, contracts don't necessarily count for shit here. Therefore, I will leave the apartment with the returned deposit in cash in my hand, period. If that involves some waiting and rent-free living in Recoleta, then so be it.
Moore,
Great. Part of the problem I had with that first lease is that the wording in the contract was vague. It said the deposit will be returned after verifying that the bills were all paid. Anyway, that was a few years ago and I learned a lot since then. I just moved out of my apartment I leased last year and I'm happy to report I did get all of my money back. The strategy you used is good but often times doing something in theory and in real life is too different things. You get busy and you just eat the loss sometimes which is what I did.
You live here so you know how it is. I own 3 corporations here and as you mentioned, things get very dicey but real estate is one of the most unregulated industries here. I could tell you horror stories from people that ran into problems when they bought their property. I just helped a woman get back a $US 9,000 scam tax not too long ago.
As you mentioned, it's best not to go against the law. I'm sure things will work out fine for you. Good luck.
Saint
Andres - I missed your excellent post that you posted above. You are absolutely correct. Never let anyone move into the property until all the funds are secured. I am buying on average 1 new property per week. Most of the people I am buying from are upgrading into a bigger apartment. The majority of them want to do the closing on the same day as their new property because they simply don't have the money to close until they sell their previous property. If a deal falls apart, they can't buy their new property.
Also, on the flip side of the coin....never let someone stay in the apartment past the sales date without a significant deposit and a contract signed by a competent lawyer. Ocassionally you will have a seller that wants to sell their apartment but they have no where to go. Sometimes they will make it a condition of the sale to let them stay in a little longer. It's not a big deal if you get a contract by your lawyer and also make them pay a sizable damage deposit. There is no incentive being a "nice guy" in Argentina on real estate deals. The locals can be really horrible to work with. I learned this first hand. In the beginning I would do people a favor. One guy I let him stay in the apartment just one extra night after the closing. I didn't get a security deposit because I reasoned there was nothing to steal. The apartment was empty. Wrong. He stole the toilet seats, the on/off gas valve, the fixtures to the sinks. Nothing was of any real value but it was clear to me to see how many locals are.
The locals can be really horrible to work with. I learned this first hand. In the beginning I would do people a favor. One guy I let him stay in the apartment just one extra night after the closing. I didn't get a security deposit because I reasoned there was nothing to steal. The apartment was empty. Wrong. He stole the toilet seats, the on / off gas valve, the fixtures to the sinks. Nothing was of any real value but it was clear to me to see how many locals are.Saint:
I belive that a good reason for you to have such problems with the locals MAY be you don't speek the language, and I guess that you start your relationship by feeling you think you are supperior to the 'locals'.
I also had bad experiences with some argentineans, but in real estate I have some experience dealing with both buyers and sellers and let me disagree with you at this point since "stealing toilet seats" should be an expected behavior only in a very-poor-disaster-neighborhood. I've never ever heared something like that!
May be they did that to you as a revenge? Just to demonstrate you they can fuck you?
My advice to this stop happen to you it's to show respect to the other person.
There is also a very different way to deal with argentineans. When you are nice to them and you show respect, they will also respect you.
Regards.
ps: I had no intention to offend anyone on the original post. I've just got shocked because such reactions against Saint and I've tried to find an explanation.
Thomaso276
08-20-05, 12:35
MCSE,
The tone of your reply is edgy. Even though I have never had dealings with Saint I have enjoyed some of his posts and his sharing of information on real estate issues here. Others have pointed out his help and advice and some have problems with his posts. It is what makes this board interesting. Everyone has an opinion. Personal and philosophical conflicts are understandable. But I have to stand up for him here. Although race relations play a large part in good and bad interactions throughout the world, advising someone to change their ways because of their race is wrong. I have run into a few (very few) anti-American folks here. I don't change my ways, I simply do not interact with them afterwards.
I do not know if there is a language barrier and maybe your message is lost in translation but your comments bring issues into play that seem like excuses based on race. No man is expected to act differently because of his race, to bow down to appease another's perceptions. In fact, if he does, there will be no respect established. I understand what you are trying to say but it comes off wrong.
While I agree that showing respect will usually garner respect in return, I do not agree that this applies to business situations, especially here. Saint's success is due to his work ethic, marketing, financial gambles and confidence. I have had good and bad dealings here over the years.
With my current lease I showed all the respect in the world to the landlady during the deal. When I had to show her proof of income, my pension, she remarked that I could pay more for the apartment and tried to raise the price! When I looked at an apartment that was for sale, the owner told me no new apartments in BA had lighting fixtures, finished floors or air conditioning. Of course I had viewed several that were complete.
Finally, Argentina went begging to China seveal months ago for trade and investment agreements. When the Chinese minister left BA without Kirchner's approval on certain points (that favored Chinese interests) and no agreement, to travel south, he was contacted the next day and Argentina agreed to accept the Chinese proposals. That is how you negotiate when you have money and someone else does not. Get up and walk away. How many posts have there been about chicas proposing outrageous prices only to be left at the table. How many posts have there been that the chica dropped the demands when we walk away or start talking to another chica.
My advice to Saint: do whatever makes you happy and successful. The hell with everyone else.
Daddy Rulz
08-21-05, 04:54
I agree with a lot of points you make. MCSE does raise an interesting point. I do see and hear a lot of racial slurs in BsAs, not just to Asians, Blacks, Yanquis etc. But directed to other Latins. I think it has something to do with the hetrogeneus (sp) nature of the society. I have heard more than one person say horrible things about Mexicans, and to a lot of people in Argentina the fols from northern South America might as well be a different species. This in no way lessons my feelings towards Argentines in general. For the vast majority they are some of the friendliest people I've ever met (Australians exempted) but I do notice it.
Negotiating: If you are respectful most folks here see it as weakness and will try to exploit it. I agree, if your the one with the money you can't take a hard enough stance.
Being a dark skinned Mexican and having traveled to Ag twice in the last 6 months I'd like to share some experiences. Overall Ag is one of the friendliest places I've been too. Every now and then you will have a small negative experience, but the good far outweigh the bad. I've only had one person say something deragatory to me, he called me poo poo in spanish as I passed him in the hall of the apt from where I was renting. What was funny was that he was about 5ft nothing and 300lbs. I'm thinking, serious self-esteem issues here!
BA is more friendly then Germany, Missouri and even certain parts of Mexico where I've had much worse experiences then being sassed by a rolly polly midget. Realistically you can't be loved by all people all the time. So, just try to get along. Every country makes fun of everyone else and the igorant don't know where to draw the line tweenst joking around and offending strangers. I mean, in Germany some red light girls wouldn't cater to dark skinned people. I mean, who cares? Find one who will, your there to bust a nut not fall in love.
As long as my person is not being threatened then people can sneer and cuss or whatever. Block my walking path, now thats just annoying!
But really, AG is great. I love the people (most of them) women are beautiful, accomodating, the architecture is nice and so is the weather. And with a 3-1 exchange rate, why vacation anywhere else?
Cheers gents, and don't let some small incident ruin your day or cause you to stereotype a whole country.
Lunico
MCSE,
You are way off base. I'm not saying I'm having any problems with the locals that ANYONE wouldn't have. The system is broke here. That is plain and simple.
I have 15 full-time employees who are all locals. They are the ones that mostly deal with the problems. Not me. I know how to deal with the system here. I have 3 successful companies here in Argentina with several more coming along. What I posted is the facts. No, they didn't do it out of "revenge". The truth remains that the way many locals conduct themselves is deplorable. That is the TRUTH and the FACTS. I'm not sure what you are talking about respect. I respect everyone. This has nothing to do with respect. I get respect because I give respect. You don't know me so I'm not sure how you can make a post like you did. You are way off base. I don't go into business thinking I'm superior. I think those in the business community here will tell you that I conduct business with dignity, ethics and honor. While I may think the way I do business is superior, I don't think I'm superior. Again, you are off base.
Also, I'm not sure why you mentioned respecting girls. Most that know me know that I probably respect women more than anyone on this board. Jackson knows this fact as well. I do enjoy the local culture or I wouldn't be living here. What I posted is the truth and if you can't accept that then you need to open your eyes.
As Thomaso posted, the tone of your post is very very edgy. I met you and you are a nice guy. I remember I tried getting your assistance when I moved here that ended up with a disaster. Even though you were a local I told you that I wanted to move in on a property and I wanted to make an offer immediately. You kept saying to wait and I lost the property that I wanted. One thing I know is how to do business. It doesn't matter if I'm in the USA, China, Argentina or Russia. The fact that I have achieved a lot of success in a short amount of time has proven that.
I accept that I am in Argentina. I love this country but I accept truths about it. Just as I love the USA I don't pretend that there aren't problems there. I take offense to your post and I'm not sure where it is coming from.
I have no problems with the locals. They are very friendly and I've NEVER experienced problems. What I was talking about is business. Consider that Transparency International (which is well respected around the world) ranks Argentina as one of the most corrupt countries in the world to do business in.
http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004/cpi2004.en.html#cpi2004
Only worse are countries like Libya, Ethiopia, Honduras, Zimbabwe, Niber, Sudan, Iraq, Kenya, Angola, Chad, Nigeria and Haiti. Pretty shady company huh??
MCSE - You are way off base. I've met you. You may have lived here longer but I'm sure I have more financial dealings and more business interaction here in just one year than you may have had your entire time in Buenos Aires. That isn't bragging. That is just the plain truth. My companies interact with some of the largest banks, investment houses, accounting firms, legal firms, etc. Guess what the first thing that most of the locals tell me at the beginning of the meeting? "I apologize ahead of time for the way our country is and the system is broken". That is the truth. That is the one thing most of people start off the meeting with.
Thomaso - Thanks for your thoughtful post. You are also American and you deal with the way things here are on a daily basis so I'm SURE you know what I'm talking about. Every American I have met here has agreed with my comments. I think most will agree that my posts have been spot on over the years on Buenos Aires. Thanks again.
Saint
With my current lease I showed all the respect in the world to the landlady during the deal. When I had to show her proof of income, my pension, she remarked that I could pay more for the apartment and tried to raise the price! When I looked at an apartment that was for sale, the owner told me no new apartments in BA had lighting fixtures, finished floors or air conditioning. Of course I had viewed several that were complete. The problem is renting property today is devaluated compared to Y2k.
Buying real estate works in US dollars and long term rent is in pesos. Many owners feels they should rise the prices but they simple can't since workers wage is in AR pesos.
Trying to obtain a discount based on value for money in Argentina I don't reccomend, always better claim I don't have more than this and this is what I can pay for your product. Check out http://www.deremate.com.ar (argentinean ebay) and look on Q & A reasons to ask discounts on any product offered.
Also, a real estate broker that lies it's common everywhere, any country.
Showing respect for the other person it's a rule of gold everywhere, also, must be sincere since people sometimes they realize that you show a "fake" respect. I'm not saying you have to "humilliate" yourself nor anything like that. Just be honest, and expect they respect you back.
They are very friendly and I've NEVER experienced problems. What I was talking about is business. Consider that Transparency International (which is well respected around the world) ranks Argentina as one of the most corrupt countries in the world to do business in.I've posted that since you were complained because some guy stole a toilet after a transaction, again, I find it an extremely unnecesary behavior (from him) It's easy to realize that he mite did that as a revenge against you, so I ask you: what you did or what attitude you had to receive back that kind of recation?
MCSE - You are way off base. I've met you. You may have lived here longer but I'm sure I have more financial dealings and more business interaction here in just one year than you may have had your entire time in Buenos Aires. That isn't bragging. That is just the plain truth. My companies interact with some of the largest banks, investment houses, accounting firms, legal firms, etc. Guess what the first thing that most of the locals tell me at the beginning of the meeting? "I apologize ahead of time for the way our country is and the system is broken". That is the truth. That is the one thing most of people start off the meeting with. And that's the behavior I'm talking about.
Best Regards
Thomaso276
08-22-05, 11:11
Can anyone advise if I need the CUIL, CUIT or CDI to buy property here? And where do I get this number, I am in Recolleta.
Thanks
Hi Thomaso,
Yes, you need a CDI number as a foreigner to purchase property here. It's a bit time consuming to get it but not difficult. I did it myself to learn how to do it. You go to your local police station. (There is one on Las Heras between Callao and Ayacucho) Bring your passport and a copy of your passport. Tell them you want to apply for a CDI #. They will have you fill out a form and then you list your address of your local apartment (or hotel room) The next day an officer will bring you this paper and verify that you are there. I've heard conflicting information that you have to be home. Others told me you didn't and someone could sign for you. Probably best to be there waiting. The cost a little over a year ago was only 10 pesos.
You go to the main AFIP office downtown and you bring that paper. Take a #, get in line and make sure to have 2 photocopies of your passport. You wait in line (I waited several hours) and then you get up there and an official simply stamps your paper. He writes in a CDI # and this is your CDI number for Argentina. For those wondering, a CDI # is a tax ID number similar to our Social Security # in the USA.
It is necessary to purchase property here including a property or an automobile.
Good luck.
Saint
Spassmusssein
08-23-05, 01:19
-since a few months AFIP recomends also a copy and the original of your contract of renting your apartement.
You should bring this as well to avoid waiting 4 hours and beeing sent back (as they love to do.
The responsible AFIP-agency is usually No 50, in Hipolito Yrigoyen 2251, floor 1 or 3.
Ask at Info-desk if your paperwork is sufficient, sometimes they also ask for copy of the appartement-owner's title of property... ;(
Yes Indeed,
Exon is looking for an Apartment for at least a one year lease.
Ive decided I want to spend more time down here and need my own place.
I'm planning on spending between $800 & $1,000 per month.
I might entertain the thought of another Monger going in with me for a bigger place in the neighborhood of $1,500 to $2,000 per month in Rent.
I'm only interested in Renting only, I'm not about to invest in the Argentine real estate market as I don't trust their economy nor their politics.
Any help or Query's would be appreciated.
Many thanks in advance.
Exon
MCSE,
You are way off base. I'm not saying I'm having any problems with the locals that ANYONE wouldn't have. The system is broke here. That is plain and simple.
I have 15 full-time employees who are all locals. They are the ones that mostly deal with the problems. Not me. I know how to deal with the system here. I have 3 successful companies here in Argentina with several more coming along. What I posted is the facts. No, they didn't do it out of "revenge". The truth remains that the way many locals conduct themselves is deplorable. That is the TRUTH and the FACTS. I'm not sure what you are talking about respect. I respect everyone. This has nothing to do with respect. I get respect because I give respect. You don't know me so I'm not sure how you can make a post like you did. You are way off base. I don't go into business thinking I'm superior. I think those in the business community here will tell you that I conduct business with dignity, ethics and honor. While I may think the way I do business is superior, I don't think I'm superior. Again, you are off base.
Also, I'm not sure why you mentioned respecting girls. Most that know me know that I probably respect women more than anyone on this board. Jackson knows this fact as well. I do enjoy the local culture or I wouldn't be living here. What I posted is the truth and if you can't accept that then you need to open your eyes.
As Thomaso posted, the tone of your post is very very edgy. I met you and you are a nice guy. I remember I tried getting your assistance when I moved here that ended up with a disaster. Even though you were a local I told you that I wanted to move in on a property and I wanted to make an offer immediately. You kept saying to wait and I lost the property that I wanted. One thing I know is how to do business. It doesn't matter if I'm in the USA, China, Argentina or Russia. The fact that I have achieved a lot of success in a short amount of time has proven that.
I accept that I am in Argentina. I love this country but I accept truths about it. Just as I love the USA I don't pretend that there aren't problems there. I take offense to your post and I'm not sure where it is coming from.
I have no problems with the locals. They are very friendly and I've NEVER experienced problems. What I was talking about is business. Consider that Transparency International (which is well respected around the world) ranks Argentina as one of the most corrupt countries in the world to do business in.
http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004/cpi2004.en.html#cpi2004
Only worse are countries like Libya, Ethiopia, Honduras, Zimbabwe, Niber, Sudan, Iraq, Kenya, Angola, Chad, Nigeria and Haiti. Pretty shady company huh?
MCSE - You are way off base. I've met you. You may have lived here longer but I'm sure I have more financial dealings and more business interaction here in just one year than you may have had your entire time in Buenos Aires. That isn't bragging. That is just the plain truth. My companies interact with some of the largest banks, investment houses, accounting firms, legal firms, etc. Guess what the first thing that most of the locals tell me at the beginning of the meeting? "I apologize ahead of time for the way our country is and the system is broken". That is the truth. That is the one thing most of people start off the meeting with.
Thomaso - Thanks for your thoughtful post. You are also American and you deal with the way things here are on a daily basis so I'm SURE you know what I'm talking about. Every American I have met here has agreed with my comments. I think most will agree that my posts have been spot on over the years on Buenos Aires. Thanks again.
SaintI find your posts on the subject of business in Argentina very informative and forthright, the business ethics and attitude you describe explain the political state of the countryl. Someone once said that every society deserves their own form of government.
It is difficult for me to imagine this theory applying to the people of argentina who appear to have such wonderful attitudes. Appearances however can be deceiving and I believe that there is a reason for everything. What is worrysome is that the chicas must also bear this toxic strain.
I'm curious; what kind of business are you in and what do your companies do. Briefly what general industries are worthwhile exploring here and since most business are not run in an ethical manner do opportunities exist for an ethical operator to purchase and improve on the operation of existing businesses?
I find your posts on the subject of business in Argentina very informative and forthright, the business ethics and attitude you describe explain the political state of the countryl. Someone once said that every society deserves their own form of government.
It is difficult for me to imagine this theory applying to the people of argentina who appear to have such wonderful attitudes. Appearances however can be deceiving and I believe that there is a reason for everything. What is worrysome is that the chicas must also bear this toxic strain.
I'm curious; what kind of business are you in and what do your companies do. Briefly what general industries are worthwhile exploring here and since most business are not run in an ethical manner do opportunities exist for an ethical operator to purchase and improve on the operation of existing businesses?I will refer some local practices that I experienced and that I may be the ones Saint refers to.
1) No planning / no scheduling and no commitment of resources: Roughly 10 years ago, I had to launch a new line of business inside a multinational company in BA. Our sales manager sold 4 projects, and I was told to do manage and implement these projects simultaneously (in 4 different cities) BEFORE commiting resources to such division.
The basic procedure was the following: Start working in one project (myself and a couple of temporary assistants) and not paying attention to the next one until either I finished my job there or the client sent a fax / registered letter threatening with legal actions of contract fines. When the latter happened, top management started drawing people from other divisions and throwing them to me praying that I can train them in the new line of business in minutes so that they could hit and run.
Needless to say, the company didn't earn big credibility in that line of business.
I'm talking about a North American multinational company, by that time the most important in Argentina regarding that area.
2) Nepotism: This happens everywhere, but is more pervasive in Latin America. Either in local or multinational companies, you will be flabbergasted of how many couples / brothers / etc work together in the same company and often at the same division. Family / friendship links usually prevail over competence.
3) Bad ethics of lack of ethics: I witnessed several meetings and conversations in which managers / CEOs deny the rights of some customers despite explicitly acknowledging it and try to manipulate that to the limits. Example: A customer that bought an equipment from one of the companies that I worked for claimed for the unavoidable accessory tools that were expected to come with the unit. My boss said that these tools were stripped from the original packages to make a "side business", and that they were released for free only to customers who bought above a certain amount.
When pointing out some remarks, bosses always told me "If the customer is not happy, they should look for providers elsewhere".
It is possible that, in all the previous explanations, you don't see much of a big issue, but what is important is to perceive a common trend: Not caring very much for customer satisfaction or for professionalism.
Hope this helps,
Andres
I will refer some local practices that I experienced and that I may be the ones Saint refers to.
1) No planning / no scheduling and no commitment of resources: Roughly 10 years ago, I had to launch a new line of business inside a multinational company in BA. Our sales manager sold 4 projects, and I was told to do manage and implement these projects simultaneously (in 4 different cities) BEFORE commiting resources to such division.
The basic procedure was the following: Start working in one project (myself and a couple of temporary assistants) and not paying attention to the next one until either I finished my job there or the client sent a fax / registered letter threatening with legal actions of contract fines. When the latter happened, top management started drawing people from other divisions and throwing them to me praying that I can train them in the new line of business in minutes so that they could hit and run.
Needless to say, the company didn't earn big credibility in that line of business.
I'm talking about a North American multinational company, by that time the most important in Argentina regarding that area.
2) Nepotism: This happens everywhere, but is more pervasive in Latin America. Either in local or multinational companies, you will be flabbergasted of how many couples / brothers / etc work together in the same company and often at the same division. Family / friendship links usually prevail over competence.
3) Bad ethics of lack of ethics: I witnessed several meetings and conversations in which managers / CEOs deny the rights of some customers despite explicitly acknowledging it and try to manipulate that to the limits. Example: A customer that bought an equipment from one of the companies that I worked for claimed for the unavoidable accessory tools that were expected to come with the unit. My boss said that these tools were stripped from the original packages to make a "side business", and that they were released for free only to customers who bought above a certain amount.
When pointing out some remarks, bosses always told me "If the customer is not happy, they should look for providers elsewhere".
It is possible that, in all the previous explanations, you don't see much of a big issue, but what is important is to perceive a common trend: Not caring very much for customer satisfaction or for professionalism.
Hope this helps,
AndresGood example; more of a divergence of priorities issue than the outright corruption you find in Russia. The total corruption model is really incompatible with the attitude of the population. Doesn't seem to add up.
Good example; more of a divergence of priorities issue than the outright corruption you find in Russia. The total corruption model is really incompatible with the attitude of the population. Doesn't seem to add up.I guess that "total corruption" is extreme. There is corruption, of course, and it becomes almost unavoidable when dealing with some public institutions, but nothing really on a daily basis. I may have faced 10 or so situations related to corruption, at least 5 of them from police officers who wanted bribes. Not that many, after all.
Andres
I guess that "total corruption" is extreme. There is corruption, of course, and it becomes almost unavoidable when dealing with some public institutions, but nothing really on a daily basis. I may have faced 10 or so situations related to corruption, at least 5 of them from police officers who wanted bribes. Not that many, after all.
AndresWell you probably wouldn't really experience the full brunt of it unless you were involved in a large business enterprise or politics.
Goblin
Well you probably wouldn't really experience the full brunt of it unless you were involved in a large business enterprise or politics.
GoblinAs much as I know from other people, in some countries such as Bangladesh, you have to pay bribes for anything when dealing in a business or in your personal life (such as getting drinking water! That's what I call "total corruption".
I mean, I never had to bribe a Telefonica employee to repair a phone line timely or a DMV-like (RNPA) employee to speed up a document to sell or buy a car, but I heard that running the retirement errand to get your pension may be nightmarish if you don't have a "contact" or getting a DNI as a foreigner is much faster and convenient if you find one of these middlepersons (although not mandatory)
Respect to large businesses and politics, I agree that you would be much more exposed to corruption in those environments, but in those cases corruption applies to every country.
Andres
I wasnt here, but I heard that you did have to bribe a Telefonica employee and / or wait up to a year to get a new line installed until the earlymid 90s when the Menem adminisitration privatized industries and "fucked up" the country. I had never made a bribe before moving here but have made many since. Also have personally witnessed several cases of blatant theft / embezzlement in local business here. Corruption happens everywhere and there are places like Bangladesh that are worse than Argentina, but I think there are more countries that are better than worse. Argentina, along with many African nations, is pretty far down on the transparency. Org list, for instance. Saying you're less corrupt than Bangladesh is like saying you're richer than Haiti.
I wasnt here, but I heard that you did have to bribe a Telefonica employee and / or wait up to a year to get a new line installed until the earlymid 90s when the Menem adminisitration privatized industries and "fucked up" the country. I had never made a bribe before moving here but have made many since. Also have personally witnessed several cases of blatant theft / embezzlement in local business here. Corruption happens everywhere and there are places like Bangladesh that are worse than Argentina, but I think there are more countries that are better than worse. Argentina, along with many African nations, is pretty far down on the transparency. Org list, for instance. Saying you're less corrupt than Bangladesh is like saying you're richer than Haiti.To me, challenging the total corruption concept in Argentina is a way to set this issue in its proper place. You may have to deal with corrupt practices, but not necessarily everyday as in other places.
Before 1991, you had to bribe ENTel personnel to set you a line, although that situation was getting far less common by the mid 80s when the MEGATEL plan was implemented.
Andres
I haven't posted in a long long time. Been crazy crazy busy and I started traveling again now that things did work out for me as I planned. I've been traveling for the past 7 weeks. I hit 6 countries (including traveling around Australia)
Anyway, I just wanted to post an update. Andres as usual is spot on. I stick by what I originally posted. This is a difficult place to do business in. Take everything Andres said and multiply it by 1000. What you see as an employee and you see as an owner are two different things.
Any honest business person that knows anything will tell you that everything that I mentioned is correct. Again, I love Argentina but there are serious issues here. I think you will find that I have been right over the years. Look at my calls on the exchange rate since the crash (it still remains in the 2.75 - 3.25 range) that I said it would stay in for a few years. I made this call back when so called experts were saying things exactly the opposite. My calls on real estate were spot on as well.
"Corruption" is a relative word. Moore was totally correct when he brought up the Transparency International bit. I think I was one of the first for years that has cited that Transparency International list of the most corrupt countries in the world. - http://ww1.transparency.org/cpi/2004/cpi2004.en.html. It is rampant here.
Most companies here are very unefficient, lazy or just don't care about long term relationships. Andres was totally correct when he talked about nepotism. I see that in so many companies where they don't hire the best person for the job. They hire their lazy, out of work brother who knows nothing about marketing, law, accounting, etc.
Still, moving to Argentina was the best decision I have ever made. I'm working double of what I worked in the USA but I'm living my dream of working here and the solid business plan has paid off well. I'm getting involved in bigger projects now like looking to build boutique hotels and buildings.
I know some love my posts and some hate my posts. To me it doesn't matter. My goal has always been to help people. I think you will find if you read my first posts, I literally correctly called the direction of things in an unstable country that people said would never pull themselves out of the gutter. When everyone was moving their money out of Argentina, I was moving it in and so were a lot of other foreigners. Love me or hate me....I was right.
More and more foreigners have moved to BA and more will. The economy is getting stronger, unemployment is getting lower, tourism is booming and I predict this is only the beginning. People are still only discovering Argentina. Those that plan now and start businesses around tourism will take advantage of the inefficiencies of other companies and will thrive and prosper.
Best of luck to all and Happy 2006.
Saint
What you are saying makes a lot of sense but I would worry about Argentina's reluctance to play ball with the international community and the IMF. I believe this is a good thing if the country can sustain itself in the long run.
Traditionally such countries have come under many forms of attack from the outside such as boycotts, attacks on tourism, negative publicity etc.
I would be curious to find out just how profitable business opportunities and real estate investments are from a cash flow perspective and in comparison to what you can expect in the US.
In my region a 50 room hotel will generate a typical net income before debt service and taxes of about 10% to 12% depending on location, age, and quality. Businesses are typically capitalized at about 20% to 30% depending on their capital asset base, management intensity, and income stability.
Goblin.
I haven't posted in a long long time. Been crazy crazy busy and I started traveling again now that things did work out for me as I planned. I've been traveling for the past 7 weeks. I hit 6 countries (including traveling around Australia)
Anyway, I just wanted to post an update. Andres as usual is spot on. I stick by what I originally posted. This is a difficult place to do business in. Take everything Andres said and multiply it by 1000. What you see as an employee and you see as an owner are two different things.
Any honest business person that knows anything will tell you that everything that I mentioned is correct. Again, I love Argentina but there are serious issues here. I think you will find that I have been right over the years. Look at my calls on the exchange rate since the crash (it still remains in the 2.75 - 3.25 range) that I said it would stay in for a few years. I made this call back when so called experts were saying things exactly the opposite. My calls on real estate were spot on as well.
"Corruption" is a relative word. Moore was totally correct when he brought up the Transparency International bit. I think I was one of the first for years that has cited that Transparency International list of the most corrupt countries in the world. - http://ww1.transparency.org/cpi/2004/cpi2004.en.html. It is rampant here.
Most companies here are very unefficient, lazy or just don't care about long term relationships. Andres was totally correct when he talked about nepotism. I see that in so many companies where they don't hire the best person for the job. They hire their lazy, out of work brother who knows nothing about marketing, law, accounting, etc.
Still, moving to Argentina was the best decision I have ever made. I'm working double of what I worked in the USA but I'm living my dream of working here and the solid business plan has paid off well. I'm getting involved in bigger projects now like looking to build boutique hotels and buildings.
I know some love my posts and some hate my posts. To me it doesn't matter. My goal has always been to help people. I think you will find if you read my first posts, I literally correctly called the direction of things in an unstable country that people said would never pull themselves out of the gutter. When everyone was moving their money out of Argentina, I was moving it in and so were a lot of other foreigners. Love me or hate me. I was right.
More and more foreigners have moved to BA and more will. The economy is getting stronger, unemployment is getting lower, tourism is booming and I predict this is only the beginning. People are still only discovering Argentina. Those that plan now and start businesses around tourism will take advantage of the inefficiencies of other companies and will thrive and prosper.
Best of luck to all and Happy 2006.
Saint
I might as well get a place for a year. I'm leery about buying down here, at least for the moment. I checked in with Roxana but one year rentals are out of her area of expertise. I'm looking to spend $800-$1,000 a month in Recoleta, Barrio Norte or Palermo. If anybody has ideas or a good referral source I'm all ears. Thanks in advance!
The dog
I might as well get a place for a year. I'm leery about buying down here, at least for the moment. I checked in with Roxana but one year rentals are out of her area of expertise. I'm looking to spend $800-$1,000 a month in Recoleta, Barrio Norte or Palermo. If anybody has ideas or a good referral source I'm all ears. Thanks in advance!
The dogDB, as there are at least 10 posters on the board who have done what you're contemplating, I think the best thing you could do is to buy one or more of them out for lunch, and pick their brains. If you just ask here, you're bound to get commentary from the peanut gallery which could be worse than useless. Probably the best thing you could get from one of our resident posters would be a referral to a good real estate agent, though I understand those are few and far between in BsAs. Ask Jackson for a referral to a real estate lawyer to help you with the lease. He has spoken warmly of a particular fellow who speaks fluent English and is not terribly expensive.
Hunt99-sounds wise to me. I'll follow up with Jackson, and think about the brain picking too.
Rock Harders
02-03-06, 15:19
Doggboy-
Although real estate values (to buy) are definetly in US Dollars, the monthly rents that Portenos pay are definetly in Argentine Pesos. Which essentially means that your willingness to pay $800-$1000 USD per month to live in the Recoleta / Barrio Norte area is completely unnecessary since you are willing to commit to a year in the same location. For example, I lived in a place near the corner of Parana and Santa Fe, a killer location in Barrio Norte, and paid $500 USD per month (1 bedroom, all utilities included, maid, etc) and I was in fact getting RIPPED OFF. To get a short term apartment-less than six months- it may be necessary to deal with the services that rent apartments-and rip off- foreigners. Your best bet is to get a copy of the Clarin newspaper, either hard copy or on the web www.clarin.com.ar, and check out the apartment listings, apartments are listed by location, ie, there are say, 10 zonas, so the centro would be one zona, recoleta / b. Norte, a different zona, all clearly explained in the paper itself.
My neighbors in my apartment on Parana told me that I should be paying around $500 AR for my apartment (not including utilities) My guess is that in general, local rents are the same number that the companies that cater to foreigners ask for, except in pesos instead of dollars (a $800 US foreign rent would go for $800 AR if a local rented it on his own. Finding your own apartment will take much more work, including furnishing, paying taxes, utilities, etc, but in after a year time you will have saved so much US $$$ that it will be well worth it.
Suerte,.
Dirk
Hi Dirk Diggler,
Well said. I concur.
Thanks,
Jackson
Thanks Dirk! Looks like I got a lotta reading and legwork to do. I'll follow up, and when I get something straightened away I'll post.
The dog
I should add that if the Paparazzi is an issue for you, avoid central locations (especially Palermo Hollywood). A ranch or "country" in San Isidro is a better option in that case. Lower profile, less fanatics.
I was thinking maybe a cold water flat in Montserrat. Stay home all the time and jack off with a burlap sack.
I was given some info today by an expat that I thought was downright wrong, or at best alarmist. He contended that "foreigners" must have a DNI to rent anything other than a short term rental, AND must have a "guarantor", somebody who is local and can essentially put up property as collateral, should the foreigner skip town, or whatever. All this was news to me. I am just starting the process of looking for a long term rental, and I don't have a DNI. Can anybody weigh in on this?
The dog
Hi DB,
I've rented three properties in the four years I've been in BA, including my apartment in Recoleta and, of course, the Mansion in Vicente Lopez.
I've NEVER been asked for a DNI, and I've NEVER supplied a guarantee. Oh, of course they've always asked for a guarantee, but I've always ignored them, made my offers without including a guarantee, and obviously they accepted.
It's all negotiable.
Thanks,
Jackson
Thomaso276
02-11-06, 23:13
You do not need a DNI, you may need a guarantor. Offer cash for the term of the lease or a good portion of it to avoid gurantor problem, because no one here will sign for you! They are usually worthless anyway becasue alot of property owners are selling guarantee signature and landlords know that the property being promised may have 25 other promises attached to it.
Rest assured you can rent down here.
You do not need a DNI, you may need a guarantor. Offer cash for the term of the lease or a good portion of it to avoid gurantor problem, because no one here will sign for you! They are usually worthless anyway becasue alot of property owners are selling guarantee signature and landlords know that the property being promised may have 25 other promises attached to it.
Rest assured you can rent down here.Resting assured! Will continue the quest for suitable digs. Much thanks!
Out for Flesh
02-12-06, 21:07
My guess is that in general, local rents are the same number that the companies that cater to foreigners ask for, except in pesos instead of dollars (a $800 US foreign rent would go for $800 AR if a local rented it on his own.This is interesting because it basically matches what I realized: anything which costs X Euros (in Madrid) should (roughly) go for X AR$ in BsAs. Anyhing more than that may be a rip-off.
Of course things may be different in other parts of the country. For example, I found housing in Mendoza ridiculously cheap compared to Madrid.
Which leads me to a question: would you buy real estate in Mendoza as a mid-term investment?
Thomaso276
03-18-06, 13:34
Okay, so last week I closed out my rented apartment and had the landlord's representative (his mommy) tell me I had to pay to paint the place. Without getting into too many specifics, his mommy misrepresents every issue that is not in her favor and uses the contract when it is to her advantage. Needless to say I knew two years ago they would try to cheat me on the deposit.
The contract specifically calls for final utility bills to be paid and any damage done or missing items. Paint, cleaning curtains, etc. is not considered damage (salvo el desgaste natural producido por el buen uso why el tiempo - "save the natural wear produced by the good use and the time" according to the contract) As well, mommy never made any claims - other than verbal complaints about how much money they lost since the crash - about repairs, broken windows, missing items, etc. Typical as well are their stories about country homes, country clubs, trips abroad, other properties owned. It really bugs me when rich folks complain about a few dollars. I guess that is why they are rich.
I will keep posting as this develops but it is another example of locals with money trying to take advantage. I have no plan to simply give these folks 1600 pesos. We'll see how it develops.
Contract calls for both parties to go through the Tribunales Ordinarios de Primera Instancia en los Civil de la Capital Federal, which I am guessing is a small claims venue, for any claims. For example, if I was a problem tenant they could have evicted me without going through the drawn out landlord tenant process.
PM me if you want an address to avoid. As well they are raising the rent at least 50%.
I never have to deal with this BS again. Landlords here can be a real pain in the ass.
AllIWantIsLove
03-18-06, 15:13
Why not just post the address and name of the landlord? That way anyone doing a search will be aware of the way this landlord deals with tenants.
Bob
Jaimito Cartero
03-18-06, 15:52
Did you have to prepay the rent? I think many people just stop paying rent the last few months.
Thomaso276
03-18-06, 18:52
Yep, prepaid; but the deposit was less than one month's rent. I can afford the loss, after all they have the money. Blood from a stone concept. Just like in USA sometimes it is more trouble than it is worth for a few hundred dollars. Neither system here or in USA is setup for small recovery. In Florida small claims court can award damages but then you have to go to circuit court to pursue the claim if defendant refuses to pay.
I have not officially been denied the proper return of deposit until 30 days after the lease ends. Until then I have suffered no loss or damages. The owner, who is Arg. But lives in USA, may fold and return the proper amount. I wonder if he declared the foreign investment income to the IRS or AFIP here in Argentina.
His representative here is BA is his mommy! She is the one telling me what I have to pay for. No sense in arguing right now, except I told her I was not responsible for these issues. She gave nothing substantial in writing and kind of dropped the ball when it comes to legal issues she must adhere to.
Anyway, the apartment is on Callao in Recoleta. Some real estate guy was there when I signed off, but I don't know who is listing it. If you are looking at an apartment in the area PM me for address.
When you say you'll never have to deal with this again, does that mean either you bought a place or are leaving BA?
Regarding the 1600 peso deposit, as you say US$500 is probably not worth battling over. However, you should be the one calling the shots since you are occupying the apartment. If you refuse to leave (no longer paying rent of course) the landlord will probably be lucky to have you evicted by the year 2010 based on what I know. Thats why most require garantias, which is basically a lien on the guarantors property. They may have your p1600 deposit, but you have their US$150k apartment. Leverage favor to you, big time. Unfortunately you have to assume "guerilla warfare" rules here even when leasing an apt.
My lease expires in a few months and I may not be renewing. I have a year's rent down as a deposit (no garantia and the owner didnt want a prepay) so the amount is material. Believe me I will not be vacating that apartment without the refunded deposit in cash in my wallet. If it takes them a year to cough it up than thats a year of rent-free Recoleta living for me. The landlords have been decent most of the time, but I don't trust them.
And in my case the "landlord", the person I always deal with and pay, is a guy but the actual owner is his Mommy.;) Same old story, they represent themselves as Recoleta Royalty but argue over a few pesos. And when we signed the lease you would have thought we were closing a $10 billion dollar deal (their lawyers present, etc).
Which leads me to a question: would you buy real estate in Mendoza as a mid-term investment?Only after I have a frontal lobotomy. ;)
Thomaso276
03-18-06, 23:09
Bought a place. Completely remodeled it over three months, much more room, quieter and a permanent home for me. Moved in with two weeks left on lease. Could not wait to move on. Had no interest in staying there at the rental.
I understand your point and your hefty deposit and I would take steps now to protect that large amount of money. In my case, the money is not as important as the principle. I have no interest in cheating anyone out of their rightful expenses or their right to rent to someone else. Recoleta Royalty is right.
Unlike some folks down here, I try to be fair in dealing with legal or relationship issues. Just because someone else is an asshole doesn't mean I have to be.
By the way, if you have a complaint it is against the property owner not necessarily the representative.
I fully believe in doing business ethically but you have to cover your ass here because a high % of people will screw you over if you let them. I don't plan on scamming anyone but I will have real recourse if my landlord pulls something. I think that many Argentines don't view themselves as assholes for doublecrossing someone, even a good customer/tenant/employer/employee that has treated them well. Its simply the only environment they know. Possibly they even believe that you rightfully deserve to be doublecrossed if you allow it to happen.
Rock Harders
03-19-06, 03:33
Mongers-
"Argentina, for the most part, is the closest thing to the wild west anywhere, aside from some African countries. And chances are it will forever remain like this, in between short periods of calmness."- a quote from a post by a knowlegeable monger made on this forum. I really believe that this principle needs to be applied in many situations, both business and personal, when conducting one's self in this country. In the "wild west", as in Argentina, the law only goes so far and everything outside the enforceable law comes down to advantages of leverage and position.
I rented an apartment on Parana between Santa Fe and Marcelo T. tor 5 months recently and had absolutely zero problems with either the real estate women or the owner of the apartment. On roughly every 20th day of the month, one of the owners kids, who were roughly my age (20's) and the real estate women would come to the apartment at time of my convenience and collect the rent, and I would sign a new contract. One time the toilet broke and began leaking, and I made one phone call and the owner was at the apartment and had the problem fixed the same day. Several months later, the pipe under my bathroom floor was leaking and flooding the apartment beneath mine- an architect and plumber came, and I could not use my bathroom for 6 days- I demanded compensation and they gave me a prorated share off the next months rent.
Even though these people had been honest and accomodating the entire time, and I doubted they would try to fuck me out of my one month's rent ($500 USD) security deposit, I was ready to retaliate if they made any scummy moves. When the day came to fork over the apartment, they came to take it over about 4 hours before my flight was scheduled to leave EZE and game me back the entire security deposit, in USD, without even really looking at the apartment to check for damage. Keep in mind this was a fully furnished apartment, TV, DVD, stereo, fully equipped kitchen, etc. However, like I said, I was prepared to retaliate, and if they tried to without some or all the $$$ I was ready to destroy an equivelent amount of property. Bottom line, use your leverage, but these people were totally honest and if anyone wants the website I got my apartment from PM me.
Suerte,
Dirk Diggler
However, like I said, I was prepared to retaliate, and if they tried to without some or all the $$$ I was ready to destroy an equivelent amount of property.That sounds like the mentality of a trailerpark/slum dweller and/or someone on a steroid rampage. Since justice here is slow/unreliable, leverage your position absolutely (thats why there are garantias), but destroying property accomplishes nothing and is totally uncalled for in any non-criminal situation.
"Trust but verify" or, better yet, Trust but Collateralize.
Mongers-
"Argentina, for the most part, is the closest thing to the wild west anywhere, aside from some African countries. And chances are it will forever remain like this, in between short periods of calmness."- a quote from a post by a knowlegeable monger made on this forum. I really believe that this principle needs to be applied in many situations, both business and personal, when conducting one's self in this country. In the "wild west", as in Argentina, the law only goes so far and everything outside the enforceable law comes down to advantages of leverage and position. The international anti-corruption organization Transparency International does a yearly ranking of countries according to the honesty exhibited in the legal system and business relations.
Argentina ranks at number 97, below such paragons of virtute as Gabon, Benin, Rwanda, Lebanon, and Burinka Faso. (But hey! They're still ahead of Haiti, Afghanistan, and Somalia!)
Now, in cases where corruption is rife and the legal system dishonest, I would not say that you should never consider doing business there. But the greater the amount of corruption, the greater the opportunity for return - in theory. But I know of no foreign investors in Argentina who have created anything for themselves except migraine headaches. Like the Loch Ness monster, a successful foreign businessman probably exists, but his sightings are few and far between.
Very interesting thread. I always learn something from your views of your interactions with Argentinos.
Moore is right on target when he surmises that many Argentineans think that "a person rightfully deserves to be doublecrossed if he allows it to happen". As unvelievable as it sounds, I heard people saying after scaming others "fuck them for doing business with us". That partially explains why managers and owners there prefer to hire an inefficient relative than a potentially efficient unknown. At least, you knw where your relatives live if they misbehave.
Thomaso and Moore are also on target when stating that you should always behave ethically regarding these issues. It's true that you can threaten to destroy the kitchen tiles or the bathroom bowl, for instance, but landlords have always resource to bullies (controlled by the Police) who can evict you fast for an USD 3000 fee.
I like the description of Recoleta Royalty. Several books have been written about the psychology and sociology of these species, perhaps the most famous being "El medio pelo argentino" by Arturo Jauretche.
Of course, that mentality backfires sometime. I remember a friend who had to renew his lease back in 1991 (with Dollar value rocketing) and the landlord wanted full payment in USD explicited in the contract, with no negotiation or "force majeure" clause. That landlord didn't see coming the Peso-Dollar peg of early 1992 and 40% inflation in Dollars for that year, so by mid 1992 she was receiving a very low income for that rent. Briefly, she shot her own foot for being too greedy.
The issue of renting has a LONG history down there. From the abuse of landlords at the beginning of the 20th century, society shifted to the other extreme by the 1950s when the Peron administration enacted the "Renting Act", which froze rent values to the point that after a few years some landlords received as rent the equivalent of a pack of cigarettes.
That issue scared investors and owners, which preferred to rent their places under other legal frames. Have you ever wondered why there are still so many "family hotels" in some neighborhoods? You can easily evict tenants under that frame, although these hotels are in fact pension houses.
It would be nice to have a "Renting Administration" for speedy trreatment of rental-related claims, as many North American cities have. That would allow the protection of both landlords and tenants rights, while limiting their leeway also. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening soon because each part believes that rules would be done to screw them and benefit the other.
Hope this helps,
Andres
Rock Harders
03-19-06, 14:57
That sounds like the mentality of a trailerpark / slum dweller and / or someone on a steroid rampage. Since justice here is slow / unreliable, leverage your position absolutely (thats why there are garantias) but destroying property accomplishes nothing and is totally uncalled for in any non-criminal situation.
"Trust but verify" or, better yet, Trust but Collateralize.Moore-
When you are leaving on a flight in a few hours, and do not have time to squat in the apartment until the dispute over a security deposit is resolved, you make contingency plans. Fortunately for both parties, my contingency plan did not need to be put into action.
Suerte,
Dirk Diggler
But the greater the amount of corruption, the greater the opportunity for return - in theory. But I know of no foreign investors in Argentina who have created anything for themselves except migraine headaches. Like the Loch Ness monster, a successful foreign businessman probably exists, but his sightings are few and far between.Thats generally true. Also if you have some capital then you have something that is very scarce here, which should give you an even greater return premium. But this is a scary place to invest.
Besides, I think Saint already controls the local market.;)
But I know of no foreign investors in Argentina who have created anything for themselves except migraine headaches. Like the Loch Ness monster, a successful foreign businessman probably exists, but his sightings are few and far between.There are many, especially big ones with connection to political lobbies.
Telefonica, Telecom, Trenes de Buenos Aires, etc, received HUGE subsidies and increases in prices before taking control of the privatized companies. Also, local companies such as Mastellone Hermanos ("La Serenísima" dairy products brand) could thrive despite of corruption, investing a lot.
If you mean midsize investors with not many political connections and "leverage", you are right.
Andres
There are many, especially big ones with connection to political lobbies.
Telefonica, Telecom, Trenes de Buenos Aires, etc, received HUGE subsidies and increases in prices before taking control of the privatized companies. Also, local companies such as Mastellone Hermanos ("La Serenísima" dairy products brand) could thrive despite of corruption, investing a lot.
If you mean midsize investors with not many political connections and "leverage", you are right.
AndresIn other words, people who associate success with hard, honest, efficient work and innovation should seek opportunities outside of Argentina.
In other words, people who associate success with hard, honest, efficient work and innovation should seek opportunities outside of Argentina.For most cases, absolutely.
Andres
For those of us who have had a difficult time with long term renting in BA, I am passing along to board members some valuable information. I have been very fortunate to become friends with a porteno who has greatly assisted me since I arrived in BA. He is a non practicing attorney who lives in Barrio Norte. A more honest guy you would be hard pressed to find. Specifically he ran interference for me when I was searching for a long term apartment. Made phone calls, set up appointments, and accompanied me to look at a variety of places. Without him, the process would have been immeasurably more difficult, and tremendously time consuming. While probably not fluent in english, he speaks it relatively well. He has worked at times with some local real estate agencies, but presently, only very part time with one agency. He is looking to make some side money doing for others what he has done for me. If you are interested, pm me, and I can put you in touch with him. I am primarily doing this as a favor to him, and if it helps out some mongers, so much the better. There is no "cut" coming my way whatsoever. I have no idea what he might charge and have not asked. Knowing him as I do, it will be on the ridiculous side of reasonable.
The dog
TangoManiac
03-24-06, 03:29
I used them during my 5 week stay in BA. Yeah I know the site is in english. They had someone who spoke fluent english meet me at the apartment (after I paid too much money for a remise from the airport, yeah I know) He went over the contract with me.
I was expecting to get hassled the day I left for my deposit money back. I didn't at all. I was pretty surprised. They were pretty cool about everything. Since they try to cater to americans I wonder that perhaps they actually don't try to dick everyone around. IMO their prices werent too bad. Seemed ok for me. I'm not representing them or anything, just giving my advice about a company that worked well for me (bc when I came I spoke NO spanish)
TM
Thomaso276
04-21-06, 11:57
I have dealt with three landlords while living here and finally got one who is trying to cheat me out of my damage deposit. The apartment owner is an Argentine / US Citizen from Indianapolis. The landlord's representative - his 80 year old mother - has lied to me since day one.
Simply put they want me to pay for painting, cleaning curtains, moving furniture, etc. She even added bills that occured after she signed off on the apartment inventory and condition over a month ago. She fabricated enough bills after I left the apartment and after she signed off that everything was in order to say I owe them another 300 pesos! What balls some people have.
I am going to attack this problem via the USA as the owner is up there, is a licensed real estate broker, pilar of the community type. When I asked him if he was current with the IRS and AFIP he responded like a true Argentine politician, saying everything was transparent - we'll see.
All this over a lousy 500 dollars!
There is one good thing about all this. I paid 833 dollars a month for the apartment for the past two years. It was very modern, 2BR, 2BA about 85 sq. Meters and the building was excellent. The owners had been moaning about losing money since the rentals market had boomed after I signed a lease two years ago. In fact, evertime I spoke with the mother she moaned about having received 2500 dollars monthly from Nokia as a corporate renter before the crash. What the fuck do I care about what happened 6 years ago and the implication that I have to make it right becasue they lost money. Anyhow, they raised the asking price to 1200 dollars monthly and the place has been empty for two months. Looks like they lost almost 1700 bucks plus the monthly expenses so far.
If anyone looks at an apartment at 1441 Callao be careful.
In December my rent came due. I was paying 3 months at a time. I had endured 3 rent increases in 18 months. I told the landlady (a month in advance) that I would stay another six months if she did not raise the rent again. She agreed. Two fucking days before the contract was up she blithely said, "Oh my husband decided we should raise the rent 20%" I moved out, pronto. The place is still vacant four months later. Gee, I guess the free market says it wasn't worth 20% more. Ha ha.
But I did get almost all my deposit back.
I too have rented apartments in Buenos Aires.
I have found that the market is no where near as strong as purported by some people on this Forum.
As an example on my last trip I picked a place off the Internet threw Reynolds Properties 6 weeks in advance. A furnished one bedroom, the rent was $180 USD per week plus 100% deposit for a two week stay. E-mailing back and forth I was asked to place a deposit of $360 dollars to assure its availablity.
I sent a message back saying no, I'd take my chances since there were litterly hundreds of furnished apartments available on the internet from varrious leasing agency's. Plus the fact that I'd never seen the place. I didn't want to put my money down and lock myself into a deal I couldn't live with.
Well sure enough 6 weeks latter it was still available and waiting for me when my plane landed.
The above apartment was in a good area just off Santa Fe. About 3 peso's down Santa Fe to El Alamo, and yes I'd gladly stay their again.
I've also found that theres much better value if you stay out of Recoleta. It seems to me that housing is 25% higher in Recoleta than in other parts of the city.
Moreover I'm getting tired of being Fucked and treated like a Tourist in Recoleta. The price of most everything in Recoleta is nearly double in comparsion with the rest of the City.
Exon
Thats the reason I stopped wearing a cowboy hat, shorts and boots there.
I think the camera was a dead giveaway.
Someday I would like to rent there but not till I learn to dress like a local.
Starfe
Thomaso,
I don't know what kind of action you could take in the USA. Just as I don't know what kind of action you could take in Argentina if something went wrong in the States. Not exactly a seamless system.
Have you guys ever heard the joke about profiting from buying Argentines for what they're worth and selling for what they think theyre worth? In the case of the apartment vacancies, I don't believe that the landlords think they are losing money. Their apartments are listed for what they think they are worth which is apparently more important than having a cash flow. You see the same mentality with real estate sales - apartments listed at $160k and empty for 3 years - the kicker is that the seller has turned down offers of $150k! If you go to a car/motorcycle dealership here you will see "new" 1999 models still in inventory.
Thomaso276
04-21-06, 20:37
I am going to try and pressure squeeze it out of him. He has alot of ties in USA, including professional license and complaint board through Realtors Association, a friend tells me I can sue him in small claims in INDY via fax, phone. I started last night. If they were poor I would not care, but I really detest people with money who refuses to honor their commitments. I never expect the poor to honor their commitments as they are trying to survive.
Feel free to contact Alex and ask about his rental apartment in BA! I do not think he reads this board becasue last year when he picked up and signed the receipt for his years rent he brought along his life partner, "Bruce" or "Biff" or some other fucking name I cannot remember.
http://www.alexmirkin.com/about.php
LOL!!! :D
I suspected this guy was a homo instantly upon seeing his attached resume. Arts, AIDS foundations, flowery presentation, the whole nine yards. The only things missing are a rainbow and a pink triangle.
Until seeing his foto, I thought we possibly had the same landlord. My landlord's "rep" is his 78yo mommy.
Maybe this guy does read the board - could he be Goblin? Alex Mirkin is probably Jewish, a fag, a naturalized American, a real estate guru, and somewhat of a humanitarian that would not like us porking 20 dollar whoares in his native Argentina. Any conflicts with Goblin's profile yet? And he had an apparently personal vendetta against you Thomaso, calling you a "dumpster diving little budgetfucker that lives of off table scraps" and "a selfish little prick that has a little prick" among other insults that seemed personal in nature, as if he had met you. The case mounts...
I guess that Alex left Arg in 1976 due the the military coup that year. The dictatorship was especially hard on Jews, though they certainly werent the only people that ditched the country due to it. His naturalized US citizenship could clarify the issue - is Goblin American or not? Yes, but not native born (he also makes occasional writing errors that a native wouldn't).
BTW go after this guy if you can in USA, on principle. Make as much noise as possible thru the business associations etc.
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