Goblin's Opinions [Archive] - Argentina Private

Goblin

02-23-06, 01:21

The problem are not the attacks but the inconsistent application of censure policy by the administration. Let's face all your bosom buddies are the troublemakers here. I was on my best behavior until attacked with certain irrational bunk by various unmentionables.

I really do not mind being attacked as long as I am free to delivery the appropriate responses and in the case of this forum I am not.

As I see it, MANY of the old guard would rather exchange information valuable to experienced members instead of babysitting newbies and breastfeeding them with what they perceive as redundant information. Excepting the occasional token demonstration of newbie wet nursing of course.

The newbies on the other hand will have very little to contribute until they become more experienced.

Clearly a conflict of interest between the administration and their friends on this board because they are in the tourist business and not the business of exchanging information.

Also if you are not a so called serious whoremonger, like myself, it's best to stay away from posting on this board altogether.

Goblin.

Hi Mpexy,

Your comments illustrate the reason why I am concerned about all the acrimony on the Forum lately. I've personally met dozens of forum members here in Buenos Aires who, when I ask directly, have told me that they don't wish to post specifically because they don't wish to subject themselves to attacks by other members.

We'll never know how many potential posters have been deterred from posting by the prospect of being unduly criticized, and we'll never benefit from the information they might have contributed, but without a doubt we all know that we need to adopt a stance that encourages new members to become active on the forum.

Thanks,

JacksonHi Goblin,

I have a somewhat different perspective.

The problem are not the attacks but the inconsistent application of censure policy by the administration. Let's face all your bosom buddies are the troublemakers here. I was on my best behavior until attacked with certain irrational bunk by various unmentionables.You are correct that in the recent past I was less than zealous in enforcing the Forum's "No Personal Attacks" policy because I prefer not to run The Forum with too heavy a hand. However, it eventually became obvious to me that the personal attacks were not going to diminish on their own, so I was compelled to step in and do my job.

I really do not mind being attacked as long as I am free to delivery the appropriate responses and in the case of this forum I am not.I appreciate your perspective, but the correct response to a personal attack is not to respond, but instead to report the abusive behavior to me and let me deal with it.

As I see it, MANY of the old guard would rather exchange information valuable to experienced members instead of babysitting newbies and breastfeeding them with what they perceive as redundant information. Excepting the occasional token demonstration of newbie wet nursing of course.

The newbies on the other hand will have very little to contribute until they become more experienced.That's certainly true, but that doesn't mean that we should chase them away. Besides, I don't see where this is a problem: If you only want to post or exchange information with experienced sport fuckers, then do so. If you don't want to answer any newbie questions, then don't.

Clearly a conflict of interest between the administration and their friends on this board because they are in the tourist business and not the business of exchanging information.Please allow me to direct your attention to the Forum's Mission Statement:

"The purpose of this Forum is to provide for the exchange of information between Men on the subject of finding Women for Sex."

BTW, who's in the tourist business? Me?

Thanks,

Jackson

Goblin

02-23-06, 02:10

For some of the die hards who think they are too young for the golf course but really too old for whoremongering I am posting what some may believe is the first report with significant relevance to this forum. Personally I would never touch stuff.

In patients taking Viagra, several heart-related side effects have been reported, including heart attack, sudden death, irregular heart rhythm, stroke, chest pain, and increased blood pressure. It is not possible to determine whether these events are directly related to Viagra, to sexual activity, to the patient's heart condition, to a combination of these factors, or to other factors.

The following factors are associated with increased blood levels of Viagra:

Age greater than 65 years.

Liver problems (such as cirrhosis)

Severe kidney problems.

Taking certain medications at the same time (e. G. Ketoconazole, itraconazole, erythromycin and saquinavir) In these patients, the recommended starting dose of Viagra is 25 mg.

Special Warnings:

Viagra was not studied in patients who have a history of the following conditions:

Heart attack, stroke, or life-threatening irregular heart rhythm within the last 6 months.

Very low and very high blood pressure.

Heart failure or unstable chest pain.

Certain eye disorders.

Because Viagra lowers blood pressure, your doctor will evaluate your overall medical condition to determine if Viagra, in combination with sexual activity, could adversely affect you.

Viagra can cause a rare but serious condition of prolonged erection (priapism) It is important to contact your health care provider immediately if your erection lasts longer than 4 hours.

Men for whom sexual activity is inadvisable may not be good candidates for Viagra.

Tell your doctor if you are taking protease inhibitors for the treatment of HIV.

General Precautions with Viagra:

You should have a complete medical history and exam to determine the cause of your impotence before taking Viagra.

Men who have medical conditions that may cause a sustained erection such as sickle cell anemia, leukemia or multiple myeloma or who have an abnormally shaped penis may not be able to take Viagra.

There are several medications that are known to interact with Viagra, so be sure to tell your doctor about all medications you are taking including those you can get without a prescription.

Viagra has not been studied with other treatments for impotence, so use in combination with other treatments is not recommended.

What are some possible side effects of Viagra?

This list is NOT a complete list of side effects reported with Viagra. Your health care provider can discuss with you a more complete list of side effects.

The following is a listing of the most common side effects:

Headache.

Flushing.

Upset stomach.

Stuffy nose.

Urinary tract infection.

Visual changes such as mild and temporary changes in blue / green colors or increased sensitivity to light.

Diarrhea.

Goblin

===========================================

Hi Goblin,

Very informative report.

Thanks,

Jackson

Mpexy

02-23-06, 07:21

Yet again another post that upon reflection is just preachy, so edited it down to just mention the top two that should have been in any standard potential side effects and interactions list:

1. Do not take sildenafil if taking any nitrate drugs (For chest pain, cardiac problems) or the more obvious and common mistake - happen to be taking any recreational drugs that have nitrate as the primary reagent, such as "poppers" or other amyl nitrate based drugs.

2. Do not take sildenafil with grapefruit or grapefruit juice; the interaction can produce serious side effects.

*or other fruit rich in flavonoids.

**flavonoids block enzymatic break down of drug compounds in the intestine before reaching your bloodstream; net result depending on your natural enzyme concentration in the intestinal wall is that mixing a specific drug such as sildenafil with a flavonoid rich fruit like grapefruit can result in a much higher concentration of the drug reaching your bloodstream, up to 50% higher.

Hunt99

02-23-06, 12:21

That poster didn't deserve the thoughtful response you gave him/her, Mpexy. Do you think that mature discussion is the purpose of his/her participation on this board? Think again.

Goblin

02-23-06, 15:34

That poster didn't deserve the thoughtful response you gave him / her, Mpexy. Do you think that mature discussion is the purpose of his / her participation on this board? Think again.Of course here we have someone who wears a tin foil rubber on his head and launches witless attacks against dissenting viewpoints advocating mature discussion.

That's good for a laugh!

There seems to be a relationship between whoremongering and hypocrisy. The question is, do whoremongers become hypocrites or does hypocrisy lead to whoremongering?

Goblin

El Perro

02-23-06, 15:53

Goblin

02-23-06, 16:06

BTW, who's in the tourist business? Me?

Thanks,

Jackson[/blue]Well, I would call the Mansion and the renting of apartments a tourist venue, yes.

Many guys including myself don't go to BA JUST to screw a bunch of different chicas, they keep things in that department to a dull roar while enjoying the many other attractions Argentina has to offer.

To be perfectly honest chicas on this board in most cases are portrayed as mere sacks of meat meant only for sexual gratification and I just don't share that phylosophy. No doubt other travellers to BA feel the same way.

The consensus here is if that's who you are take your posts elsewhere which is probably also your own opinion.

I believe that any poster failing to endorse the practice of mongering with sufficient enthusiasm is subject to attack.

Therefore regular tourists or anyone with reservations about career mongering will be better off taking the valuable tourist information from this site instead of contributing what may deviate from its main focus and incurr the wrath of others who are looking for endorsement of their hobby.

There is only room for career mongers here. That's how I see it and that is probably how you see it as well.

Goblin

[blue]Hi Goblin,

I appreciate yoru comments.

1. I no longer have any involvement in the Mansion.

2. Renting my one apartment doesn't really qualify me as "in the toruist business".

3. You are welcome and encourage to post your experiences here. I can assure you that if anyone attacks you personally, I will delete their comments as soon as I become aware of them, usually within a few hours.

Thanks,

Jackson

Goblin

02-23-06, 16:21

Goblin,

I think Hunt99's point was that since you made clear you do not use any ED meds, why would you post a lengthy "warning" about these meds? Logical conclusion-you are tweaking the ol boys. Now, you're not going to argue that your post "was for their own good" are you? Plus, even though the ol boys might be cantankerous, they are most definitely not stupid. Rest assured they are educated about the benefits and potential drawbacks associated with ED meds. You can rest easy. I am sure they are taking care of themselves.Hunt attacks anything that implies dissention from mongering no matter how distant. The guy is hard core, I will not bother to elaborate, no point fuelling the fire.

It was really more for the benefit of the young not to make the mistake of the cantakerous old who may be that way because of the side effects of this drug. So if the old get tweaked a bit for the benefit of the young then so be it. The old like to tweak the young sometimes too.

I also believe that the detriments of this drug are far greater than what is being published. This holds true for most drugs. Their true impact will not be known for years.

Goblin

Hunt99

02-23-06, 17:27

It must be galling to the old battleaxe to have lost her man to mongering. Perhaps if she polished knob better her ex wouldn't have left her.

Goblin

02-23-06, 18:19

It must be galling to the old battleaxe to have lost her man to mongering. Perhaps if she polished knob better her ex wouldn't have left her.I don't know if it is wit or sense that is more difficult to extract when it comes to decoding your posts.

Goblin

Goblin

02-23-06, 18:34

Hello Jackson.

No longer involved with the Mansion? I had assumed you were, my mistake. Any chance of sharing the reason for your discontinued involvement?

Curious!

Goblin.

Goblin.

[blue]Hi Goblin,

I appreciate yoru comments.

1. I no longer have any involvement in the Mansion.

2. Renting my one apartment doesn't really qualify me as "in the toruist business".

3. You are welcome and encourage to post your experiences here. I can assure you that if anyone attacks you personally, I will delete their comments as soon as I become aware of them, usually within a few hours.

Thanks,

Jackson

Hunt99

02-23-06, 19:03

I don't know if it is wit or sense that is more difficult to extract when it comes to decoding your posts.

GoblinAnd your posts, dear Goblin, are of absolutely zero value to any of the normal participants on this board. I am perfectly capable of yanking my own chain. I don't need you to do it for me with all of your worthless drivel.

Goblin

02-23-06, 20:01

I wouldn't refer to participants such as yourself as normal human being nor do I have the slightest regard for what you or anyone like you thinks of my posts.

Is that finally clear now?

The only thing you consider of value is what does yank your chain which is hardly of any interest to me.

So in other words I'm not here to jerk you off Hunt666, you'll continue to have to do that yourself.

Goblin.

And your posts, dear Goblin, are of absolutely zero value to any of the normal participants on this board. I am perfectly capable of yanking my own chain. I don't need you to do it for me with all of your worthless drivel.

Goblin

02-23-06, 20:10

I read this forum as much for, and get equal or even more value, out of the lifestyle, useful info on argentina stuff like health insurance, cell phones, etc.

It's an invaluable tool for those planning on, already here, or just haven't lived in BA for years to already know where to go to find a tailor or whatever.Exactly! Just becasue the posts are now also saturated with conventional material doesn't mean the pervs can't keep winding each other out with pornographic material.

It is the pervs (pardon the expression) who are intolerant of non-pervs and not the other way around.

Conventional material has no bearing on perv post volume, pervs just don't want to bother sifting through it all. The pervs want every post to be only of interest to them. They want this strictly to be a sex forum.

Goblin

El Perro

02-23-06, 20:12

Hunt666! You are the FUCKING ANTICHRIST! I know Jackson has to step in from time to time, but these flaming posts are priceless. You have been called the antichrist by a goblin. Hardy fucking har!

Moore

02-23-06, 21:15

Goblin,

Not everyone here is your enemy. I like your style!

Even though I will concede that a huge % of what you post has zero or less than zero value (other than entertainment value).

Cheers,

Moore007

Sconjo USA

02-23-06, 22:05

Are you calling all the men that belong to the forum pervs. You got a lot of guts. You [Deleted by Admin]. You would never say things like that in front of any of thease guys. You are a [Deleted by Admin].

Sconjo usa

EDITOR'S NOTE: This report was edited in accordance with the Forum's Zero Tolerance policy regarding reports containing any personal attacks or derogatory comments directed towards another Forum Member or the Forum Membership in general.

Goblin

02-24-06, 00:14

Goblin,

Not everyone here is your enemy. I like your style!

Even though I will concede that a huge % of what you post has zero or less than zero value (other than entertainment value)

Cheers,

Moore007Well thank you.

We are all here for entertainment purposes of one kind of another. Besides anything of substance has already been posted except for a continuation of exploit reports to which I will not contribute out of respect for the few chicas that I have been with.

I was in BA last month but I really have nothing to add to what has already been posted. Everything that happened to me has already been covered elsewhere on this forum.

Goblin

Goblin

02-24-06, 00:24

Are you calling all the men that belong to the forum pervs. You got a lot of guts. You [Deleted by Admin]. You would never say things like that in front of any of thease guys. You are a [Deleted by Admin].Let me get this straight. I have a lot of guts but I am a gutless asshole?

I'm calling some men who belong to this forum pervs. Would you disagree that some are? Also, not sure if you have noticed but this forum is not designed for face to face conversations.

I doubt any of the pervs would critique me like they have in a personal meeting but I am sure that I would respond in exactly this way if ever they did.

I'll be back in BA again soon so maybe we'll see.

Goblin

Rock Harders

02-24-06, 00:31

Goblin,

I take it that my last post to you did not help you to "see the light". You really need to mellow out a little here- "I don't consider you people human beings". As for calling the forum membership "pervs" that does not bother me one iota, I am openly a complete pervert, my number one priority in life right now is to fuck every beautiful women I can get my paws on.

Are you in training at a Evangelical Christian Seminary right now, one with a decidingly Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson slant? Honestly, part of the reason I reside in Buenos Aires is to get away from people like that- I simply despise moralist, puritan, right wing types that repress themselves and others. You are totally barking up the wrong tree with that kind of stuff in this forum. The forum membership is not made up of born again christians.

In addition, I think you are way off when you assert that everything worth posting has already been plastered on this forum. Every single experience reported adds to the "intelligence value" of this forum- going out and experiencing the houses of iniquity with a well-educated base off which to make decisions.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

El Perro

02-24-06, 00:41

[QUOTE=Goblin]

I'll be back in BA again soon so maybe we'll see.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goblin,

All these fireworks on the board and you're not even here. Shame on you.

Rabiddog666

Goblin

02-24-06, 00:50

Diggler.

I said "normal human being". It's not normal human behaviour. I'm also not preaching morality I'm just saying that I'm not a hard core whoermonger who shares his exploits with others or posts photographs of the chicas who have trusted me with their naked pictures. I realize full well that this is not a christian forum LOL.

Therefore I don't have much to contribute to this forum that has not already been covered. I'm really more interested in the cultural, sociological, political, and financial aspects of Argentina and practical information of a non sexual nature. Take the mentality of chicas for example, every time I touch on that subject the radicals left pipes up. This is far more interesting to me than finding the best lay in town.

Goblin.

Goblin-

I take it that my last post to you did not help you to "see the light". You really need to mellow out a little here- "I don't consider you people human beings". As for calling the forum membership "pervs" that does not bother me one iota, I am openly a complete pervert, my number one priority in life right now is to fuck every beautiful women I can get my paws on.

Are you in training at a Evangelical Christian Seminary right now, one with a decidingly Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson slant? Honestly, part of the reason I reside in Buenos Aires is to get away from people like that- I simply despise moralist, puritan, right wing types that repress themselves and others. You are totally barking up the wrong tree with that kind of stuff in this forum. The forum membership is not made up of born again christians.

In addition, I think you are way off when you assert that everything worth posting has already been plastered on this forum. Every single experience reported adds to the "intelligence value" of this forum- going out and experiencing the houses of iniquity with a well-educated base off which to make decisions.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Hunt99

02-24-06, 01:56

I don't have much to contribute to this forum The most truthful words to have been posted by this handle.

Cowpie

02-24-06, 02:20

Goblin.

Most members on this board aren't interested in cultural, sociological, political, and financial aspects of Argentina. Just plain old suckin and fuckin. Photos a big plus.

My interests are:

Who are the good providers.

What is the going rate at the clubs, or from the internet, or apartment visits.

When are the chicas back from vacation.

Where #1 can I find viagra at a reasonable price.

Where #2 are the chicas located.

Why does a [Deleted by Admin] post bull shit about viagra when the old dogs already know or should know the implications.

EDITOR'S NOTE: This report was edited in accordance with the Forum's Zero Tolerance policy regarding reports containing any personal attacks or derogatory comments directed towards another Forum Member or the Forum Membership in general.

Rock Harders

02-24-06, 02:38

Goblin

02-24-06, 04:04

Goblin-

I am interested in the "cultural, sociological, political and financial" aspects of Argentina, I was an International Relations major, I live and breath that stuff. It is ok that you only want to inquire about and contribute on those types of subject matter- but like I have already told you many times, this is a forum centered upon sexcapades, so although I do welcome your inquiries and input on non-sexual matters, DO NOT complain or whine when other AP forum members post primarily sexual-related material in this forum, which is designed for that very purpose.

Do you eat at restaurants? Did you stay in a hotel, hostel, or apartment while you were in Buenos Aires? Surely, you must have gone out at night in Buenos Aires, to regular bars or discos. You must have noticed something interesting during your stay in Buenos Aires that others might not have picked up on. All of these things I have just mentioned would be worthwhile subjects to post upon that would help you "contribute something" to this forum. Many threads exists on these subjects, and if one does not already exists start one.

Suerte,

Dirk DigglerI'm not complaining about them, they are complaining about me. The apartment I stayed at has been amply covered as have the restaurants and the ones that haven't aren't worth mentioning.

I have noticed that the chicas are piss poor selling themselves out of dire need and necessity in deep despair over their state of sexual slavery to men who neither care for them nor respect them and who mock them with reports and photographs of their exploits over the internet.

One chica I hung out with for a few days during my trip last month (working girl) invited me to her home in the provincia and introduced me to her family. What an experience that was. No windows or doors in the house, no air conditioning, dirt roads, sharing a bedroom with her sister and supporting her entire family from the income she earns selling herself. Hates her job but puts on a nice face to get her fair share of work.

Uses a bucket to flush the toilet and has to take ride the bus for four hours every day to go to work. Her father died recently to a terminal illness and her brother was shot as an innocent bystander during the course of a robbery.

Then I read about some guy who has posted a picture of her friend at the boliche on this forum and about the great time he had twisting her into various positions and doing her bareback at the rock bottom price she finally accepted out of financial desperation. No shit there is a picture of her friend on this site, I couldn't believe it when I saw it.

I'm sure this horror story is just the tip of the iceberg. Whoremongers just don't seem to recognize or respect the misery that provides them with their entertainment as they satisfy their lust on these poor pathetic victims of government corruption. The whole thing kind of sucks if you ask me.

How's that for a contribution to this forum?

Goblin

Goblin

02-24-06, 04:07

Goblin

02-24-06, 04:19

If you only want to post or exchange information with experienced sport fuckers, then do so. If you don't want to answer any newbie questions, then don't.

JacksonThere you have it from the big guy himself; the perfect solution to all the controversy started by Hunt99 and all the others who want to monopolize this forum. Just stay away from the newbies whom you view as having nothing to contribute. The newbies will take care of themselves. Take it from a senior member.

Goblin

Rock Harders

02-24-06, 05:19

Goblin,

Prostitution is not acclaimed as "the world's oldest profession" because it is the result of government corruption. For as long as there has been a man and a woman, there has been a woman willing to exchange her sexual services to a man for payment in some form (protection, goods, hard currency) It is just the forces of biology in action.

I definetly do care about the people of Argentina and it does pain me that a great majority of them are poor and are not able to improve their lot because the socio-economic system of Argentina is inefficient and allows for little social mobility. However, and I think a large number of knowledgeable members of the AP forum will agree with me on this, alot of the lack of improvement is caused by the fact that the Argentine people demand rights, but they do not readily accept the responsibility that goes along with these rights. They want and demand the right to a democracy and pseudo-capitalistic market economy, yet they don't take the responsibility to properly manage and maintain their democracy and economy (although this may be slowly changing)

Look at it this way, if there were not mongers willing to pay for their services (and this pay is way more than they could make working a real job) these girls would be even worse off than their current socioeconomic position. I know some "working girls" that make a ton of money (compared to the average Argentine) and they are intelligent enough to know that you "always pay for it, one way or another", so they sell their dignity and fuck for a living and make a pretty peso doing so.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Goblin

02-24-06, 05:20

Just to elaborate on your interests a bit more. I believe this kind of sexual obscession is born out of being ignored by chicks in High School. To a normal person too much impersonal sex becomes booring very quickly.

I tried making my rounds in BA on my first trip there but after the third chica in four days I became exhasperated with meeting new girls every night and getting acquainted, intimate, and physical with them likely never to see them again from that day forward. I found it depressing to just use these women for impersonal sex.

It lost its allure completely and became as mundane and booring as a traffic stop. So I went back to the chica I liked best and stayed with her the whole time to develop a bit of a relationship and voila sex just kept getting better and I started having a great time. It's all about a spiritual connection not about sticking your dick into a piece of flesh.

Goblin.

Goblin.

Most members on this board aren't interested in cultural, sociological, political, and financial aspects of Argentina. Just plain old suckin and fuckin. Photos a big plus.

My interests are:

Who are the good providers.

What is the going rate at the clubs, or from the internet, or apartment visits.

When are the chicas back from vacation.

Where #1 can I find viagra at a reasonable price.

Where #2 are the chicas located.

Why does a [Deleted by Admin] post bull shit about viagra when the old dogs already know or should know the implications.

EDITOR'S NOTE: This report was edited in accordance with the Forum's Zero Tolerance policy regarding reports containing any personal attacks or derogatory comments directed towards another Forum Member or the Forum Membership in general.

El Perro

02-24-06, 10:08

I'm not complaining about them, they are complaining about me. The apartment I stayed at has been amply covered as have the restaurants and the ones that haven't aren't worth mentioning.

I have noticed that the chicas are piss poor selling themselves out of dire need and necessity in deep despair over their state of sexual slavery to men who neither care for them nor respect them and who mock them with reports and photographs of their exploits over the internet.

One chica I hung out with for a few days during my trip last month (working girl) invited me to her home in the provincia and introduced me to her family. What an experience that was. No windows or doors in the house, no air conditioning, dirt roads, sharing a bedroom with her sister and supporting her entire family from the income she earns selling herself. Hates her job but puts on a nice face to get her fair share of work.

Uses a bucket to flush the toilet and has to take ride the bus for four hours every day to go to work. Her father died recently to a terminal illness and her brother was shot as an innocent bystander during the course of a robbery.

Then I read about some guy who has posted a picture of her friend at the boliche on this forum and about the great time he had twisting her into various positions and doing her bareback at the rock bottom price she finally accepted out of financial desperation. No shit there is a picture of her friend on this site, I couldn't believe it when I saw it.

I'm sure this horror story is just the tip of the iceberg. Whoremongers just don't seem to recognize or respect the misery that provides them with their entertainment as they satisfy their lust on these poor pathetic victims of government corruption. The whole thing kind of sucks if you ask me.

How's that for a contribution to this forum?

GoblinGoblin,

Actually, I like that post. That was the most pure expression of your opinion about mongering yet. You would have saved yourself, and others on this board, alot of time if you had posted that first. Kudos to you for your concern for these people. BUT remember, people in dire circumstances make do as best they can, AND, many chicas make a damn good living (by Argentina's standards) providing sex for money. PLUS, the prostitutes here have a much higher standard of living than alot of prostitutes in the states (not all mind you, but alot) The summary, you don't like mongers because you are not a monger. And as a guy on Saturday Night Live used to say, "That's all right".

The dog

Member #4110

02-24-06, 13:09

I have noticed that the chicas are piss poor selling themselves out of dire need and necessity in deep despair over their state of sexual slavery to men who neither care for them nor respect them.

GoblinYour description of this young woman's poverty and her response to the poverty by getting into this business is an argument for prostitution, not against it. This is not slavery. Sexual slavery does exist and it is an evil thing, but confusing this woman's choice with the physical constraints put on abducted women is unfair to both groups. Do you want this young woman to sit around her windowless house in a state of hopelessness, or do you want her to take some action that will help her and her family? The fact is that many women make good livings in this line of work, and enjoy their work as much as most people.

Goblin

02-24-06, 19:16

Your description of this young woman's poverty and her response to the poverty by getting into this business is an argument for prostitution, not against it. This is not slavery. Sexual slavery does exist and it is an evil thing, but confusing this woman's choice with the physical constraints put on abducted women is unfair to both groups. Do you want this young woman to sit around her windowless house in a state of hopelessness, or do you want her to take some action that will help her and her family? The fact is that many women make good livings in this line of work, and enjoy their work as much as most people.I wonder if you will advocate this solution back home to your wife and daughters when similar political developments produce an economic crisis in the United States.

I do not think we are that far off from that given that our own moral decline is approaching the standards of the second world which as Diggler has pointed out is a primary catalist for political change.

Not every working girl is a tragedy I agree, but those who work out of economic need are slaves to their profession considering the alternatives and that they have no way of escape. That is very much a form of slavery.

Certainly the worst solution to the economic problems of Argentina for the US or for any country is for all the women to go peddling their asses downtown.

From the perspective of a monger prostitution does not represent charity; it is a predatory practice taking advantage of the situation.

Combine that with prevailing monger attitudes around here and you have a serious lack of respect for suffering that could easily befall the US where forces of corruption are hard at work to produce similar conditions in the not too distant future.

Goblin

Goblin

02-24-06, 19:24

Member #4110

02-27-06, 00:55

Not every working girl is a tragedy I agree, but those who work out of economic need are slaves to their profession considering the alternatives and that they have no way of escape. That is very much a form of slavery.Everyone works out of economic need. There is no escape from work, for most of us, for most of our lives. That does not mean everyone is a slave. Indeed, work can be ennobling, and fun. I am glad that you acknowledge that some ladies enjoy their work, and benefit thereby.

As to my ex-wives working as prostitutes, I'd be delighted if they did something productive. My daughter is a successful professional making much more money than either of us, so prostitution would not be wise for her. Beyond, saying that, I hope we can agree that it is not too healthy to think about the sex lives of our daughters.

I agree with you that the United States is on the brink of a financial calamity. Many people will be hurt by a near-worthless dollar. But the least of our worries is that there will be an increase in prostitution.

Beneath your tirade is the Puritan: Sex is bad, and the woman who takes advantage of her attractivenss is evil. Round up all the pretty ladies, declare them witches, and burn them at the stake. That's what a Goblin would do.

On the other hand, why not let the ladies make their own choices and live their own lives? If we customers would stop paying them for their services, as you recommend, their poverty and suffering would increase. Who would gain from the spread of Puritanism to Latin America?

Moore

02-27-06, 01:43

I agree with you that the United States is on the brink of a financial calamity. Many people will be hurt by a near-worthless dollar. But the least of our worries is that there will be an increase in prostitution.If the US economy, market, currency were to implode, would it not take the rest of the developed world with it?

Thats a question, not a statement.

Member #4110

02-27-06, 19:28

If the US economy, market, currency were to implode, would it not take the rest of the developed world with it?

Thats a question, not a statement.Certainly stock market crashes in the dominant country tend to be mimicked by crashes everywhere. But the stock markets in the economically strong countries will bounce back. Other countries have not made the same mistakes as America, and, I hate to say it because I love my country, America will suffer out of all proportion. The dollar has been propped up by its status as the world's currency, especially for oil, and by the purchase of our debt by China and Japan. The current size of our debt in proportion to our productivity is larger than Argentina's before its devaluation. Each of us needs to ask an Argentinian what it felt like to wake up one morning and find out that one's pesos were worth 1/3 if what they were yesterday. No matter what you think about Iraq, it is incredibly expensive. The consumer keeps making "0" percent loans from banks who actually insure the consumers against default: incredible and unprecedented methods are dreamed up to rob Peter to pay Paul the home builder. When the dollar starts falling, it isn't going to make any difference if Bernanke drops dollars from helicopters: no one is going to want them. Everyone holding dollars loses, and therefore we are the biggest losers. Resource-rich nations are the big winners, such as Canada, Russia, the Stans, China, Venezuela, and Australia, as long as they can maintain political stability. Europe suffers like most of the world, but not nearly as much as America because they do not have the government debt, the bank debt, and the consumer debt that we do. If the Euro becomes the world currency to replace the dollar, Europe actually benefits. How this all intersects with future wars is anyone's guess, but it is fair to say that we are not loved in most of the world. For individual well-being, a strategy would be to buy gold, oil, loonies, and Euros (via conservative stocks) (Chinese stocks will prosper, but will an American be able to get his money out of there? I just hope I'm wrong.

Andres

02-27-06, 22:28

Certainly stock market crashes in the dominant country tend to be mimicked by crashes everywhere. But the stock markets in the economically strong countries will bounce back. Other countries have not made the same mistakes as America, and, I hate to say it because I love my country, America will suffer out of all proportion. The dollar has been propped up by its status as the world's currency, especially for oil, and by the purchase of our debt by China and Japan. The current size of our debt in proportion to our productivity is larger than Argentina's before its devaluation. Each of us needs to ask an Argentinian what it felt like to wake up one morning and find out that one's pesos were worth 1/3 if what they were yesterday. No matter what you think about Iraq, it is incredibly expensive. The consumer keeps making "0" percent loans from banks who actually insure the consumers against default: incredible and unprecedented methods are dreamed up to rob Peter to pay Paul the home builder. When the dollar starts falling, it isn't going to make any difference if Bernanke drops dollars from helicopters: no one is going to want them. Everyone holding dollars loses, and therefore we are the biggest losers. Resource-rich nations are the big winners, such as Canada, Russia, the Stans, China, Venezuela, and Australia, as long as they can maintain political stability. Europe suffers like most of the world, but not nearly as much as America because they do not have the government debt, the bank debt, and the consumer debt that we do. If the Euro becomes the world currency to replace the dollar, Europe actually benefits. How this all intersects with future wars is anyone's guess, but it is fair to say that we are not loved in most of the world. For individual well-being, a strategy would be to buy gold, oil, loonies, and Euros (via conservative stocks) (Chinese stocks will prosper, but will an American be able to get his money out of there? I just hope I'm wrong.I agree with most of that.

Since World politics and economics are intertwined by a complex mesh of relations and interests, I guess that the rest of the World will try to keep the US up as long as possible as the main consumption hub, since its failure also means the shrinkage of many export opportunities from other countries. Neither the Chinas, or India nor Japan would benefit from a sharp decrease in consumption in the US.

The turning point may be when elsewhere in the World can cope with 50% of US consumption, along with some aspects not seriously considered yet (retirement of baby boomers and its burden to the SSA, rising costs of health care, etc) and some symblic events mentioned before (oil starting to be quoted in Euros, etc)

Canada will suffer big time, too. 70-80% of Canadian exports are funneled towards the US. Maybe Albertans can sell their oil to Asia and ship it in big tankers from Vancouver, but Quebeckers won't be able to load electricity on boats to be sold to Singapour if Newenglanders stop buying it.

As of Argentina, it is one of the least exposed Latin-American countries in terms of export ratio to the US (to the point that it can reject the FTAA proposal) being only 12-20% of total exports, so if the US starts buying less Argentine goods, the country shouldn't suffer that much (not at least as much as Peru or Mexico)

Andres

Moore

02-27-06, 23:34

How this all intersects with future wars is anyone's guess, but it is fair to say that we are not loved in most of the world. For individual well-being, a strategy would be to buy gold, oil, loonies, and Euros (via conservative stocks) (Chinese stocks will prosper, but will an American be able to get his money out of there? I just hope I'm wrong.Well maybe I will invest some money in a Buenos Aires apartment after all.

And, in a disasterous USA situation, wouldnt some powerful, forward-thinking country invade/liberate the USA and solve its problems - for its own good and for the benefit of mankind?;)

PS I believe that a commentary from Exon would be appropriate here...

El Perro

02-27-06, 23:41

If you have the stomach for it, and the time:

http://www.weedenco.com/welling/Downloads/2006/0804welling022106.pdf

Part of the doomsday scenario for the dollar. The tripwire is if oil goes euros. The argument can be made that the Iraq "adventure" was the first step in a series of moves that would have "stabilized" Mideast oil. Talk about screwing the pooch.

Goblin

02-28-06, 00:31

I think you have me all wrong, frowning on sexual slavery is hardly preaching puritanism and if I was ever to advocate having a bonfire it would be for "some" of the mongers around here and not the girls.

Prostitution is not solution to economic problems it is a reaction to economic problems.

I'm also not saying don't screw them, I'm saying don't treat them like shit taboot and wrench them for every nickle. They have it tough enough as it is. These chicas go out of their way to be the best p4p chicas money can buy, they should be appreciated for it and not abused as so many mongers do.

While some chicas perhaps do enjoy their work I believe that most do not are working out of utter desperation and get about as much satisfaction or enjoyment out of their vocation of sexual servitude as trash diggers do from their noble profession.

The consequences to the US of an economic meltdown would be that most people in that country would have to do more of what they hate and less of what they enjoy so be a little sympathetic to the creatures who are already there and suffering as a result. Prostitution is only one form of human degradation.

I'm happy that your daughter is engaged in a rewarding and productive profession of her choice instead of being a slave to necessity doing something she abhors. Let's all hope it stays that way shall we?

Goblin.

Everyone works out of economic need. There is no escape from work, for most of us, for most of our lives. That does not mean everyone is a slave. Indeed, work can be ennobling, and fun. I am glad that you acknowledge that some ladies enjoy their work, and benefit thereby.

As to my ex-wives working as prostitutes, I'd be delighted if they did something productive. My daughter is a successful professional making much more money than either of us, so prostitution would not be wise for her. Beyond, saying that, I hope we can agree that it is not too healthy to think about the sex lives of our daughters.

I agree with you that the United States is on the brink of a financial calamity. Many people will be hurt by a near-worthless dollar. But the least of our worries is that there will be an increase in prostitution.

Beneath your tirade is the Puritan: Sex is bad, and the woman who takes advantage of her attractivenss is evil. Round up all the pretty ladies, declare them witches, and burn them at the stake. That's what a Goblin would do.

On the other hand, why not let the ladies make their own choices and live their own lives? If we customers would stop paying them for their services, as you recommend, their poverty and suffering would increase. Who would gain from the spread of Puritanism to Latin America?

JengisKhan

02-28-06, 07:42

Certainly stock market crashes in the dominant country tend to be mimicked by crashes everywhere. But the stock markets in the economically strong countries will bounce back. Other countries have not made the same mistakes as America, and, I hate to say it because I love my country, America will suffer out of all proportion. The dollar has been propped up by its status as the world's currency, especially for oil, and by the purchase of our debt by China and Japan. The current size of our debt in proportion to our productivity is larger than Argentina's before its devaluation. Each of us needs to ask an Argentinian what it felt like to wake up one morning and find out that one's pesos were worth 1/3 if what they were yesterday. No matter what you think about Iraq, it is incredibly expensive. The consumer keeps making "0" percent loans from banks who actually insure the consumers against default: incredible and unprecedented methods are dreamed up to rob Peter to pay Paul the home builder. When the dollar starts falling, it isn't going to make any difference if Bernanke drops dollars from helicopters: no one is going to want them. Everyone holding dollars loses, and therefore we are the biggest losers. Resource-rich nations are the big winners, such as Canada, Russia, the Stans, China, Venezuela, and Australia, as long as they can maintain political stability. Europe suffers like most of the world, but not nearly as much as America because they do not have the government debt, the bank debt, and the consumer debt that we do. If the Euro becomes the world currency to replace the dollar, Europe actually benefits. How this all intersects with future wars is anyone's guess, but it is fair to say that we are not loved in most of the world. For individual well-being, a strategy would be to buy gold, oil, loonies, and Euros (via conservative stocks) (Chinese stocks will prosper, but will an American be able to get his money out of there? I just hope I'm wrong.This doesnt make a lot of sense. I mean the dollar declining over time is possible, and that would have a slow but significant effect on trade that would reengergize the economy. When the dollar dips, US corporations benefit immensily. When the Euro was worth $1.35, European countries were crying bloody murder, man. European exports to the US fell dramatically. People stopped vacationing in Italy, and went to Mexico instead. It actually helped the US economy rebound, and now the Euro is back down to $1.18. Let me just say that the dollar falling is the last thing that Europe wants.

But as far as waking up one day (or in any short period) and the value of the dollar is 1/3 of what once was? Virtually impossible. Not to mention that it would have a profound effect on many economies of the world, not just the US. I mean there are literally dozens of governments (including Argentina) that hold large reserves of US currency. This also discounts the fact that there are millions of people who have holdings in US currency (esp Argentine private citizensin their little safety deposit boxes) bonds, and stocks. European citizens, companies, and countries are all deeply invested in the you. S. I mean we are talking global economic meltdown. Just not likely, sorry.

The problem of the national debt is greatly exaggerated. Actually the ratio of national debt to GDP is 2/3 which is the median figure of industialized nations. About 40% of the national debt is INTRAgovernmental, meaning that it is designated for pension programs, social security, and trust funds. Of the remaining 60% , nearly half of that is comprised of T-bills and public works infrastructure bonds. China would benefit from the dollar dropping? Not likely. They hold over 300 billion in US reserves. Definitely not Japan either, they hold 1.3 trillion. Speaking of which. If our national debt is a problem at 2/3 of our GDP, Japan would be totally screwed when their national debt is 8/5 of their GDP.

That being said. The war in Iraq is and always was a BIG mistake. Damn those Bushes.

Armbia

02-28-06, 12:34

This doesnt make a lot of sense. I mean the dollar declining over time is possible, and that would have a slow but significant effect on trade that would reengergize the economy. When the dollar dips, US corporations benefit immensily. When the Euro was worth $1.35, European countries were crying bloody murder, man. European exports to the US fell dramatically. People stopped vacationing in Italy, and went to Mexico instead. It actually helped the US economy rebound, and now the Euro is back down to $1.18. Let me just say that the dollar falling is the last thing that Europe wants.

But as far as waking up one day (or in any short period) and the value of the dollar is 1/3 of what once was? Virtually impossible. Not to mention that it would have a profound effect on many economies of the world, not just the US. I mean there are literally dozens of governments (including Argentina) that hold large reserves of US currency. This also discounts the fact that there are millions of people who have holdings in US currency (esp Argentine private citizensin their little safety deposit boxes) bonds, and stocks. European citizens, companies, and countries are all deeply invested in the you. S. I mean we are talking global economic meltdown. Just not likely, sorry.

The problem of the national debt is greatly exaggerated. Actually the ratio of national debt to GDP is 2/3 which is the median figure of industialized nations. About 40% of the national debt is INTRAgovernmental, meaning that it is designated for pension programs, social security, and trust funds. Of the remaining 60% , nearly half of that is comprised of T-bills and public works infrastructure bonds. China would benefit from the dollar dropping? Not likely. They hold over 300 billion in US reserves. Definitely not Japan either, they hold 1.3 trillion. Speaking of which. If our national debt is a problem at 2/3 of our GDP, Japan would be totally screwed when their national debt is 8/5 of their GDP.

That being said. The war in Iraq is and always was a BIG mistake. Damn those Bushes.I am impressed with your economic analysis. I am going to nominate YOU for the

Nobel Peace Prize in economics. Are you a Phd?

NO. SERIOUSLY. YOU MAKE ALOT OF SENSE.

ARMBIA

Bandy

02-28-06, 14:11

---------Nobel Peace Prize in economics----------NO. SERIOUSLY. YOU MAKE ALOT OF SENSE.

ARMBIAHe does, but you don't.

Bandy

Member #4110

03-01-06, 01:56

The problem of the national debt is greatly exaggerated. Actually the ratio of national debt to GDP is 2/3 which is the median figure of industialized nations. About 40% of the national debt is INTRAgovernmental, meaning that it is designated for pension programs, social security, and trust funds. Of the remaining 60% , nearly half of that is comprised of T-bills and public works infrastructure bonds. China would benefit from the dollar dropping? Not likely. They hold over 300 billion in US reserves. Definitely not Japan either, they hold 1.3 trillion. Speaking of which. If our national debt is a problem at 2/3 of our GDP, Japan would be totally screwed when their national debt is 8/5 of their GDP.1. The national debt of the United States is accelerating rapidly and all forecasts call for increasing acceleration to pay for the retiring baby boomers (the rate of change is more important than the current ratio) Our balance of payments deficit continuously expands as we keep buying things on credit and display a negative rate of savings (a binge, no less) Once again, wars and terrorism are unbelievably expensive: consider Vietnam, which is beginning to look small, and how the stock market and economy reacted in the early 70s (Dow at 700)

2. The financial gamesmanship whereby Social Security and other trust funds have been looted for every available dollar is one of the clearest signs of the national dilemma that anyone could cite. Debt is debt, whether t-bills or IOUs to Social Security.

3. Yes, Japan could be in big trouble. Everyone holding dollars loses, and the more dollars you hold, the more you lose. As for China, it is clear that the Chinese economic policy is lockstep with its military / political strategy: prop up the dollar in the short run so that it is a better target in the long run. To China, the United States is Bozo the Clown.

4. The only reason that the dollar has not corrected itself naturally is that the entire world has been using it as the universal currency. The point is: when they stop using it as the universal currency, everyone will sell dollars just as fast as they can. The longer the game is played, the worse will be the outcome.

Goblin

03-01-06, 04:25

1. The national debt of the United States is accelerating rapidly and all forecasts call for increasing acceleration to pay for the retiring baby boomers (the rate of change is more important than the current ratio) Our balance of payments deficit continuously expands as we keep buying things on credit and display a negative rate of savings (a binge, no less) Once again, wars and terrorism are unbelievably expensive: consider Vietnam, which is beginning to look small, and how the stock market and economy reacted in the early 70s (Dow at 700)

2. The financial gamesmanship whereby Social Security and other trust funds have been looted for every available dollar is one of the clearest signs of the national dilemma that anyone could cite. Debt is debt, whether t-bills or IOUs to Social Security.

3. Yes, Japan could be in big trouble. Everyone holding dollars loses, and the more dollars you hold, the more you lose. As for China, it is clear that the Chinese economic policy is lockstep with its military / political strategy: prop up the dollar in the short run so that it is a better target in the long run. To China, the United States is Bozo the Clown.

4. The only reason that the dollar has not corrected itself naturally is that the entire world has been using it as the universal currency. The point is: when they stop using it as the universal currency, everyone will sell dollars just as fast as they can. The longer the game is played, the worse will be the outcome.I don't believe that anyone will have cause for mass disposition of the US dollar unless its buying power is greatly undermined at a national level or if its supply spirals out of control. The value of money is tied primarily to the amount of existence and the strength of the economy of its issuing country and therefore its purchasing power there. The US economy is still the most productive, efficient and stable in the world with extremely high quality standards.

A mass selloff of the dollar would actually be of benefit to the economy because the US is largely self sufficient. The likely counter reaction by the Fed to raise interests rates and curtail lending on the other hand which if done to sufficient levels will have a devastating effect on the US economy.

In any case it will be a metidulously orchestrated event long in the making, much like the great depression and designed to fleece the people of their property with all kinds of stage props and scapegoats to blame ensuring that the guilty are never held accountable.

Goblin

Goblin

03-01-06, 04:29

Well maybe I will invest some money in a Buenos Aires apartment after all.

And, in a disasterous USA situation, wouldnt some powerful, forward-thinking country invade / liberate the USA and solve its problems - for its own good and for the benefit of mankind?;)

PS I believe that a commentary from Exon would be appropriate here.I think the US needs to be liberated from its republican dictatorship right now. Take a look at the patriot act, domestic survailance and the concentration camps program. We're liberating Iraq who's liberating us?

Goblin

Moore

03-01-06, 04:44

El Perro

03-01-06, 09:18

Andres

03-01-06, 10:44

The US economy is still the most productive, efficient and stable in the world with extremely high quality standards.

A mass selloff of the dollar would actually be of benefit to the economy because the US is largely self sufficient. The US economy is still one of the most productive ones, but not necessarily one of the most competitive ones. All of the low-added-value manufacturing sectors have been moving to SE Asia, a process almost completed by now (look at any Wal-Mart where do most of the goods come from) That pattern is being imitated now for high-added-value manufacturing and even for high-added-value services.

Because of its cultural and institutional advantages respect to some other countries such as China or India (reliable justice, not-that-stinky public administration, controlled corruption, etc) the US can still overcome its lack of competitiveness. However, how long would it last, given that salaries across the Pacific Ocean command a fraction of those at the States?

There's a book that explains a similar pattern experienced in the hard-disk industry during the 60s, 70s and 80s, written by Harvard professor Clayton Christensen (Technology Dilemma or such) Its parallelism to rich countries macroeconomics is shocking.

As of the US as self sufficient, it doesn't hold for raw material needs, specially energy. The US imports 90% of its oil. If the Euro becomes the oil trading currency and international prices are set for the US, Americans would have to pay €1 per liter (USD 4.50 per gallon) as Europeans do. I cannot imagine the consequences of such increase in oil prices to the US economy.

Andres

Hunt99

03-01-06, 11:42

As of the US as self sufficient, it doesn't hold for raw material needs, specially energy. The US imports 90% of its oil. If the Euro becomes the oil trading currency and international prices are set for the US, Americans would have to pay €1 per liter (USD 4.50 per gallon) as Europeans do. I cannot imagine the consequences of such increase in oil prices to the US economy.

AndresI have to disagree with my friend Andres here. When it comes to energy, the U.S. really only imports oil. Natural gas and coal are almost 100% domestic in origin, counting Canada, the 51st state, in the mix. of that portion it's mostly gas - 14% of American natural gas comes from Canada.

And the U.S. Doesn't import 90% of its oil, it imports 60%. The largest proportion of imports come from, again, Canada. (Mexico is #2). Which in my book hardly counts as imports, when you consider that the United States, Canada, and Mexico are part of a common market. The U.S. actually exports almost as much crude oil as it imports from Saudi Arabia (1 million barrels a day exported vs. 1.4 million a day imported from Saudi).

Europeans pay the much higher gasoline prices that they do because of taxes imposed by socialist governments. The Euro/Dollar relationship has nothing to do with this.

El Aleman

03-01-06, 12:12

Andres,

About gas prices in Europe, I have to disagree with you.

First, it would be nice if we would pay 1? Per liter. Unfortunately, it is? 1.25 (in Germany) And, about 80% of that is taxes - mineral oil tax and VAT.

And, Hunt, not every government that is left of George W. Is socialist. European governments of all color have long since discovered the motorist as main contributor to "public" funds, Maggie Thatcher as well as Francois Mitterand.

El Alemán

Member #4110

03-01-06, 13:19

My question for the guys preaching horrible gloom and doom for the US dollar and economy (I know there are a lot):

Assuming you're American, have you moved significant (majority) of your assets to foreign markets or durables?

It seems that many people don't practice what they preach.My modest liquid assets are leveraged to the hilt in gold stocks, mostly Canadian, to avoid political problems. It's not as stupid as it sounds, given a relatively sound retirement plan.

Actually, I'm rather sorry I got into this financial argument. I hang out on this forum to get ideas about having a good time in Argentina. On reflection I got sucked into the argument by Goblin's critique of finance-based critique of what is, for most of us, our favorite avocation: seeking beautiful women who practice the world's oldest profession. So this is my last financial post. What the hell do I know, anyway? I do promise to post concerning my experiences on my upcoming trip to BA and, maybe, Mar del Plata. I play to have a lot of fun with the dollar at 3.07 vs. The peso. That's something I know about.

JengisKhan

03-01-06, 16:02

Particularly, stockbrokers, forum posters, real estate salespeople, etc. Make your own educated decisions.I concurr. I personally trust in my financial advisor, and let him make the decisions for the most part.

As far as gold goes, it is a good way to balance your investments against catastrophic doomsday scenarios, and times of crisis, but hasn't been a good investment in general. Unless you are certain of emminent doom, investing more than a few percent of your overall wealth in gold can be very costly.

For example, if you bought gold during the early 1980's it would now be worth approximately 60% of what its now worth. The Dow Jones Industrial average on the other hand is about 1300% of what it was in 1980.

Goblin

03-01-06, 16:42

Any crisis can be created or averted it's merely a question of political will. In politics nothing happens by accident but by design be that the plummeting of the dollar or the trading of oil in another currency.

When it happens it will benefit its creators who are taking advantage of a populace as blind to economic and political realities as some are to how unfair and unreasonable it is to treat chicas like dead meat.

Anyway I can not see the international community switching to the Euro except by political design. The Euro has a fraction of the purchasing power of the US dollar. European economies are less efficient bogged down with taxation, heavy bureaucratic overhead and in many cases ideological quality standards that are not cost effective, not to mention that most of the highly industrialized european countries have almost no raw materials.

Small example. In Germany it takes a year to apply for a residential building permit the cost of which is $15,000 EU because of all the municipal control mechanisms. It' is a society obsessed with controlling and examining every detail of economic activity.

I think the value of the Euro is artificially maintained, there is no sound economic basis for it. Most of Europe is in a recession and the people there have a fraction of the US standard of living.

Goblin

Flexible Horn

03-01-06, 19:53

El Perro

03-01-06, 20:29

FH,

Good to see you back on the board. I thought you got plunked in the head at the Stones concert!

Andres

03-01-06, 21:45

Europeans pay the much higher gasoline prices that they do because of taxes imposed by socialist governments. The Euro / Dollar relationship has nothing to do with this.I acknowledge that. What I meant is that the US may have serious trouble when consumers would have to pay a lot for gas (be it for tax reasons or not)

Andres

Goblin

03-01-06, 22:16

I think the value of the Euro is artificially maintained, there is no sound economic basis for it. Most of Europe is in a recession and the people there have a fraction of the US standard of living.

Goblin Would it be possible to expand a little on this, which actual countries are in recession and have a fraction of US living standards.

Would they include what I would class as the main countries of Europe ie England, France, Germany, Spain.It would include the main countries like England, Germany, Italy. I'm not sure about France but I know that Spain is booming right now. There appears to be an effort to equalize the economic performance of these countries by lowering the output of highly productive ones like Germany and stimulating countries that have previously been "lazy" (too many siestas) to harmonize all european nations into an equal economic system.

It would also obviously include European nations that have traditionally been poor and well below the income levels of the United States. Everything in Europe is very expensive and after tax disposal and discretionary incomes are a fraction of what people earn in the US. Business opportunities are limited, unemployment is very high despite of a far more qualified labour force and a much better system of eduction at all schooling levels. I lived in Europe for many years and have many friends there so I know what I'm talking about.

Professional and vocational standards are far more demanding as are required levels of education.

Goblin

Flexible Horn

03-01-06, 23:45

[QUOTE=Goblin]It would include the main countries like England, Germany, Italy. I'm not sure about France but I know that Spain is booming right now. There appears to be an effort to equalize the economic performance of these countries by lowering the output of highly productive ones like Germany and stimulating countries that have previously been "lazy" (too many siestas) to harmonize all European nations into an equal economic system.

It would also obviously include European nations that have traditionally been poor and well below the income levels of the United States. Everything in Europe is very expensive and after tax disposal and discretionary incomes are a fraction of what people earn in the US. Business opportunities are limited, unemployment is very high despite of a far more qualified labour force and a much better system of eduction at all schooling levels. I lived in Europe for many years and have many friends there so I know what I'm talking about.

Professional and vocational standards are far more demanding as are required levels of education.

Goblin[/ QUOTE]When I look at articles such as www.brillig.com/dept_clock/ I think how long can America sustain that amount of dept.

I'm English lived in England all my life and as countries are close allies. I don't think you' have to live in a country for many years or have many friends' to know when things are not 100%.

I think the unemployment rates are running at about 4.7% in both countries. As for recession as when I left 2 months ago everything was OK.

I would also hazard a guess that a greater amount of Americans are on the poverty line than in England.

Sure America is a country of opportunity, but I don't think everything is as Rosie as you think.

FH

Moore

03-02-06, 00:47

I would also hazard a guess that a greater amount of Americans are on the poverty line than in England.

Sure America is a country of opportunity, but I don't think everything is as Rosie as you think.I don't believe there was a suggestion that everything is or ever was Rosie or perfect in the USA. Simply that its economy is much more agile, efficient, and competitive.

Suntszu

03-02-06, 01:39

My question for the guys preaching horrible gloom and doom for the US dollar and economy (I know there are a lot):

Assuming you're American, have you moved significant (majority) of your assets to foreign markets or durables?

It seems that many people don't practice what they preach.Hello,

I still have 80% of my exempt (AKA 401K and other tax deferred) holdings in US and International Equity / Emerging Market Mutual Funds (all Morningstar 4 or 5 star ratings) My single largest stock holding (I only own 2 stocks outright) is FAX, a closed end Australian & Pac Rim closed end bond fund, which trades like a stock and is a market volume leader on the AMEX exchange, so is very liquid. Current dividend yield is 7% (though I have owned for a number of years at different prices, so my yield is closer to 8%) I love that dividends are paid monthly and I have always taken dividends in the form of new shares (AKA dividend re-investment) The other stock I on is a natural gas pipeline company ETP.

Essentially all of my non exempt money is in closed end residential and commercial loan funds with the exception of GGN, which is a Gabelli closed end Gold and Natural Resource Fund. I also own a block of FAX in this account. I generally look for a weighted average dividend yield in the 8% range and all of the closed end funds I won pay monthly dividends, which I take in shares. Any appreciation is incedental, though I am up +-2% in capital appreciation over the last 4 months.

*I work on Wall St. In US Residential Mortgages

Goblin

03-02-06, 06:14

The people in America that are living on the poverty line would have to be institutionalized in England or Germany.

Goblin

Goblin

03-02-06, 06:19

Hello,

I still have 80% of my exempt (AKA 401K and other tax deferred) holdings in US and International Equity / Emerging Market Mutual Funds (all Morningstar 4 or 5 star ratings) My single largest stock holding (I only own 2 stocks outright) is FAX, a closed end Australian & Pac Rim closed end bond fund, which trades like a stock and is a market volume leader on the AMEX exchange, so is very liquid. Current dividend yield is 7% (though I have owned for a number of years at different prices, so my yield is closer to 8%) I love that dividends are paid monthly and I have always taken dividends in the form of new shares (AKA dividend re-investment) The other stock I on is a natural gas pipeline company ETP.

Essentially all of my non exempt money is in closed end residential and commercial loan funds with the exception of GGN, which is a Gabelli closed end Gold and Natural Resource Fund. I also own a block of FAX in this account. I generally look for a weighted average dividend yield in the 8% range and all of the closed end funds I won pay monthly dividends, which I take in shares. Any appreciation is incedental, though I am up +-2% in capital appreciation over the last 4 months.

*I work on Wall St. In US Residential MortgagesI'm glad you're doing well. Stop predatory whoremongering and you may survive the coming crash. The stock marketeers consider you a plump chica.

Goblin

El Aleman

03-02-06, 09:28

When I am stuck in rush hour traffic in my city (the one where Mercedes and Porsche are built) I don't have the impression of a low standard of living.

It is certainly true, that most Europeans see a lot less of their gross income in their pocket than their U.S. Counterpart, on the other hand, a lot of things that cost you Americans a **LOT** of money is already taken care of:

Health insurance - already paid for.

Schools and Universities - free.

Pension fund - already paid for.

Unemployment insurance - paid for.

Public transportation - available, safe and affordable in many cities.

Freeways - without potholes.

I don't claim to live in paradise, certainly not. We do have out problems, the biggest being that the social systems that have been built during toe post war years of steady economic growth are getting too expensive. And, a lot of people, myself included, would like to have more choice what to do, and for example how to secure their retirement, than having the government make all these decisions for them. But you will hardly find anybody on the old continent who would not advocate a medical system open for everybody, regardless of income.

So, be careful, don't compare American Apples with European Pears.

El Alemán

Sailor

03-02-06, 10:35

I lived in Europe for many years and have many friends there so I know what I'm talking about.

GoblinWhat makes you say this? "I know what I'm talking about"? There are many people living their whole life in Europe / US of A, and these people still don't know where they are talking about! Bit of a strange way to try to justify your credibility!

I agree with my Eastern neighbor, a lot of things which are "for free" in most European countries make Europe completely different from the US of A. Therefore trying to compare these two is almost impossible.

I deal a lot with Americans and spend a lot of time in / near the US of A, and my opinion is that if you have sufficient money the US of A can be a nice place to live, but if you lack money there is no worse place to live.

I think it is sad that a lot of families do not have sufficient health insurance because it is too expensive. That is wrong.

Also with the spending drift of your president / government there is no poorer civilised country in the world then the US of A. If you have a look at the link FH posted earlier (http://brillig.com/debt_clock/) you will see that there is something wrong with your governments financial policy.

OK, there is no perfect country on this planet, but to advocate the US of A superior to all other countries on this planet is a bit too patriotic to me.

I am from the country which a lot of people consider "the best" because of the countries policies regarding (soft-) drugs / prostitution, but there are also a lot of things which are not good at all here.

But as El Alemán already stated "So, be careful, don't compare American Apples with European Pears." it takes a lot more then a "superficial" compare between the two.

Sailor.

(How many flames will I get for posting this?) .

El Perro

03-02-06, 10:38

I'm glad you're doing well. Stop predatory whoremongering and you may survive the coming crash. The stock marketeers consider you a plump chica.

GoblinYou sound like some unholy combination of Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson. What (in God's name) happened to you? I am shocked at your perverse outlook on life. What possible use could you have for a "monger board", other than venting your well stocked spleen?

Hunt99

03-02-06, 11:49

I agree with my Eastern neighbor, a lot of things which are "for free" in most European countries make Europe completely different from the US of A. Therefore trying to compare these two is almost impossible.1. Nothing is free. Nothing. Somebody always pays for it.

I deal a lot with Americans and spend a lot of time in / near the US of A, and my opinion is that if you have sufficient money the US of A can be a nice place to live, but if you lack money there is no worse place to live.2. Well, since I spent my first 20+ years in America with almost no money, I have to disagree with you here. There is unlimited opportunity in America for people who want to better themselves, work hard, and create a life for themselves. There is a minimal level of help available, but that's it. Compare that with bigger amount of help available to Europeans - they sit on their asses, collect welfare checks, and get bored. And some of them then listen to the imam, blame the Jews for their plight, burn down buildings, and blame the government that they don't have bigger welfare checks. Which aren't free. (See #1, above.)

I think it is sad that a lot of families do not have sufficient health insurance because it is too expensive. That is wrong.3. Health coverage is available to everyone, should they want it. Oftentimes they have to pay towards the cost (again, see #1, above) and they don't want to pay for it. They'd rather buy a PlayStation2, $200 tennis shoes, and cable TV.

(How many flames will I get for posting this?None from me.

Hunt99

03-02-06, 11:56

I acknowledge that. What I meant is that the US may have serious trouble when consumers would have to pay a lot for gas (be it for tax reasons or not)

AndresIf US drivers end up paying $5 a gallon for this expensive gas, then European drivers will be paying $9 a gallon, unless their socialist governments reduce gas taxes. Which is about as likely as the Sun rising in the West tomorrow morning.

Sailor

03-02-06, 12:09

1. Nothing is free. Nothing. Somebody always pays for it.The reason for free being between quotes is that it isn't. But it is included in your tax money, so you do not have to pay extra. In that respect it is free.

2. Well, since I spent my first 20+ years in America with almost no money, I have to disagree with you here. There is unlimited opportunity in America for people who want to better themselves, work hard, and create a life for themselves. There is a minimal level of help available, but that's it. I mentioned in my post that there is no such thing as a perfect country. (Also not the Netherlands! I agree that the opportunity is there in the US of A, but not everybody possesses the skills to make use of the opportunities which are available. You can work hard your whole life in the US of A, and still live in a situation that you hardly survive. At least in Europe the government tries to establish a minimum standard of living for everybody.

Compare that with bigger amount of help available to Europeans - they sit on their asses, collect welfare checks, and get bored. And then listen to the imam, burn down buildings, and blame the government that they don't have bigger welfare checks. Which aren't free. (See #1, above.I think you are wrong in this. (I can only speak as a Dutch citizen.) This is a "side effect" of the social security system. I do not agree with the people who refuse to work and only collect their welfare checks. But this is changing rapidly (at least in the Netherlands) because it is too expensive to maintain. But in general I think a good social security system is one of the most important things you can have in a country.

3. Health coverage is available to everyone, should they want it. Oftentimes they have to pay towards the cost (again, see #1, above) and they don't want to pay for it. They'd rather buy a PlayStation2, $200 tennis shoes, and cable TV.The main difference is that in the Netherlands it is against the law not to have insurance. This is a part of the social security system. It is not a matter of free choice, it is mandatory. However if you decide you want to have better insurance than the "standard" that is available. I used to have US medical insurance for about 1 year, via my company, but after reading the policy I decided that it was a useless insurance. I will spare you the details, but it meant basically that I was not insured beyond life rescuing treatments. That is impossible in the Netherlands.

But again apples & pears.;)

Sailor

Hunt99

03-02-06, 13:51

You can work hard your whole life in the US of A, and still live in a situation that you hardly survive.And you don't have to work at all in Europe. Which is why 10-20% of the population doesn't bother working. Why work when the people who do will pay you to do nothing?

At least in Europe the government tries to establish a minimum standard of living for everybody. Not for much longer. "European civilization" is fast disappearing, and will be gone completely within my lifetime. 5% muslim in 1995, 10% Muslim today, 20% in 2015, 50% in 2030, and the Caliphate forever thereafter.

There is only one child being born to each white European woman. But each Muslim woman has 4-5. Demography is destiny. Goodbye Europe, the Ayatollah does not cry for your disappearance.

Flexible Horn

03-02-06, 14:24

Not for much longer. "European civilization" is fast disappearing, and will be gone completely within my lifetime. 5% Muslim in 1995, 10% Muslim today, 20% in 2015, 50% in 2030, and the Caliphate forever thereafter.

There is only one child being born to each white European woman. But each Muslim woman has 4-5. Demography is destiny. Goodbye Europe, the Ayatollah does not cry for your disappearance.Things are changing in England where I live, but to state each Muslim woman is having 4 or 5 children and white (non-Muslim women) only 1 child is pure fiction.

Where did these 'facts' materialise from?

Hunt99

03-02-06, 14:40

Things are changing in England where I live, but to state each Muslim woman is having 4 or 5 children and white (non-Muslim women) only 1 child is pure fiction.

Where did these 'facts' materialise from?Not fiction, fact.

From the left-leaning U.S. think-tank the Brookings Institution:

More are on the way. Today, the Muslim birth rate in Europe is three times higher than the non-Muslim one. If current trends continue, the Muslim population of Europe will nearly double by 2015, while the non-Muslim population will shrink by 3.5 percent.http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/fellows/taspinar20030301.htm

An interesting tidbit about the Netherlands, which is one of the countries furthest along toward becoming an Islamist State:

In the Netherlands, Muslims represent a majority among children under fourteen in the country’s four largest cities. Rotterdam, a port city where over half the population is of foreign origin will soon unveil Europe’s largest mosque, and official projections confirm that Amsterdam and Rotterdam will have fifty percent (50%) non-Western populations (mostly Muslim) by 2020.

An a further interesting tidbit from Belgium:

In fact, for the past four years, the most common name for baby boys in Brussels, Belgium has been "Mohammed," with "Osama" placing a close second.

http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/eurabia.html

And all this without even mentioning the obvious example of France, which is officially 10% and more likely 15% Muslim. We saw what happened there quite graphically. Less-known are the "No-Go Zones" for the police in the suburbs, which are controlled by Muslim gangs enforcing their own version of sharia.

Britain is not far behind, FH. The last time I was downtown in Birmingham I saw head scarves on one woman in four, and Muslim beards on every third man. Of course my personal observations don't mean much, but when it dovetailed with the demographic statistics I had read, it became evident to me, rather than just cold numbers on a sheet of paper.

El Aleman

03-02-06, 15:25

Jaimito Cartero

03-02-06, 16:49

I deal a lot with Americans and spend a lot of time in / near the US of A, and my opinion is that if you have sufficient money the US of A can be a nice place to live, but if you lack money there is no worse place to live.So, you'd rather be in North Korea if you don't have money? Nigeria? Ethiopia?

Jaimito Cartero

03-02-06, 16:52

Not for much longer. "European civilization" is fast disappearing, and will be gone completely within my lifetime. 5% muslim in 1995, 10% Muslim today, 20% in 2015, 50% in 2030, and the Caliphate forever thereafter.Sounds like there is only one solution.

Mormons.

Sailor

03-02-06, 17:25

So, you'd rather be in North Korea if you don't have money? Nigeria? Ethiopia?What about Europe? If you really want to know, the best place to be is Sweden!:) And not because of the women.

Sailor

Moore

03-02-06, 20:19

And about the future of European culture - this culture survived centuries, has been spread to other continents, and - will persist.

El AlemánYes Herr Aleman, it spread like a tank thru Poland, other E European countries, France, Holland, etc until the USA decided that perhaps such culture should be contained for the moment;)

JengisKhan

03-02-06, 20:37

Mpexy

03-02-06, 20:56

Yes Herr Aleman, it spread like a tank thru Poland, other E European countries, France, Holland, etc until the USA decided that perhaps such culture should be contained for the moment;)Not only is this the most uneducated analogy you've posted that I've seen thus far, comparing a mad man such as Hitler to be a representation of European culture, it's also an insult to every European on this board to have you so foolishly attempt to link or compare Hitler's genocidal actions as the spread of European culture, much less that of overall Germany.

Moore

03-02-06, 21:30

You need to lighten up Mpexy, among other things. Such as quit stalking, obsessing, ranting, freaking, and whining. I'm getting various PMs about you and your obsession with me. I would list some of the comments I've received about you but that would be a violation of the profanity rule.

I'll say it again - I'm not interested in you. Can I make this rejection any clearer? No means no.

Flexible Horn

03-02-06, 21:56

Yes Herr Aleman, it spread like a tank thru Poland, other E European countries, France, Holland, etc until the USA decided that perhaps such culture should be contained for the moment;)So whats with the USA now, what are you the world's police and the World's Army.

Please, I can think of one place your involved in (Military speaking) that's turning out to be a nightmare for the USA.

FH

Goblin

03-02-06, 22:46

What makes you say this? "I know what I'm talking about"? There are many people living their whole life in Europe / US of A, and these people still don't know where they are talking about! Bit of a strange way to try to justify your credibility!

I agree with my Eastern neighbor, a lot of things which are "for free" in most European countries make Europe completely different from the US of A. Therefore trying to compare these two is almost impossible.

I deal a lot with Americans and spend a lot of time in / near the US of A, and my opinion is that if you have sufficient money the US of A can be a nice place to live, but if you lack money there is no worse place to live.

I think it is sad that a lot of families do not have sufficient health insurance because it is too expensive. That is wrong.

Also with the spending drift of your president / government there is no poorer civilised country in the world then the US of A. If you have a look at the link FH posted earlier (http://brillig.com/debt_clock/) you will see that there is something wrong with your governments financial policy.

OK, there is no perfect country on this planet, but to advocate the US of A superior to all other countries on this planet is a bit too patriotic to me.

I am from the country which a lot of people consider "the best" because of the countries policies regarding (soft-) drugs / prostitution, but there are also a lot of things which are not good at all here.

But as El Alemán already stated "So, be careful, don't compare American Apples with European Pears." it takes a lot more then a "superficial" compare between the two.

Sailor.

(How many flames will I get for posting this?My generalization is not based on a superficial comparison. I have taken the differences into account and have lived in both countries to obtain my perspective.

Maintaining a middle class existence in Germany is as difficult as maintaining an upper class existence in the US. It doesn't just boil down to healthcare and social services which the German government abuses to tax the crap out of the German people.

Opportunities available to the industrious and intelligent in the US are not available in Germany where the upper middle class is now virtually extinct. I understand that unemployment for even highly skilled and qualified people in Germany is extremely high.

So when I'm saying that the US has a higher standard of living it is relative to German expectations of individual performance standards.

If the US had the labour force of Germany it would be receive an unprecedented economic boost, just take a look at what Diamler has done for Dodge when all those engineers were wooed into the US and take a look at the decline of the Mercedes line in kind.

What I'm saying is that a German would have a much higher standard of living in the US than in Germany while a US citizen already living under the poverty line in the US would not be able to survive in Germany at all.

Goblin

Goblin

03-02-06, 22:56

I never claimed that our European system is perfect, to the contrary, I said that we are facing big problems.

And Hunt: the freedom you seem to be so proud of (and which has been, past tense deliberately chosen, the outstanding feature of the American system) is fading away rapidly, taken in the post 9/11 hystery by your own government, surrendered by your people in exchange for the mere hope of enhanced safety. History will show if that was a good deal. I doubt it.

And about the future of European culture - this culture survived centuries, has been spread to other continents, and - will persist.

El AlemánYou're right about 911, it was subversive government setup.

It's the decline of the American empire, the purpose is to reduce the US into the European standard of liberty where not a single country enjoys a constitution or inalienable civil rights and where patriot act type government powers have existed for decades.

Until that happens however the US will continue to enjoy the highest standard of living in the world, at least from an economic perspective if you disregard its culture and don't eat fast food.

Multiculturalism is also just as pervasive in the US as it is in Europe. In fact Americans are far more tolerant of foreigners which is why they all prefer to go there. Not to mention that the US / Mexican border basically no longer exists.

Goblin

Goblin

03-02-06, 23:02

Now the fastest growing thread. "Nothing to contribute to this forum".

Goblin

El Perro

03-02-06, 23:07

Now the fastest growing thread. "Nothing to contribute to this forum".

GoblinAmen. It had pretty much reached the lowest common denominator. IMHO.

Goblin

03-03-06, 01:03

You sound like some unholy combination of Ralph Nader and Pat Robertson. What (in God's name) happened to you? I am shocked at your perverse outlook on life. What possible use could you have for a "monger board", other than venting your well stocked spleen?Maybe the problems is your interpretation of perversion. Once again I'm not preaching, there is a big difference between pointing out the downside of moral decay and the preachings of Pat Robertson. You're just overly sensitive to anyone refusing to endorse sexual vice.

I have an interest in Argentina that goes beyond merely having sex with chicas and this board offers lots of good information not directly related to sex with chicas, other than that I have no use for a monger board but it seems a monger board has found a use for me.

Goblin

Moore

03-03-06, 01:10

So whats with the USA now, what are you the world's police and the World's Army.

Please, I can think of one place your involved in (Military speaking) that's turning out to be a nightmare for the USA.

FHYes, when an entity is progressive and pioneering (not a "has been"/ spectator like UK) it will occasionally make mistakes with its new endeavors. The discovery of America itself was a mistake.

Of course the USA is the world's army and has been for quite some time, duh. It protects weaklings that can't protect themselves like UK.

Too bad we didn't "lose" England like we "lost" Vietnam. If only we could switch.

Hi Mpexy...Can't Touch This

Goblin

03-03-06, 01:13

Well I think it's the other way around, England doesn't want to lose the US doing all their dirty work.

Goblin

El Perro

03-03-06, 01:25

Maybe the problems is your interpretation of perversion. Once again I'm not preaching, there is a big difference between pointing out the downside of moral decay and the preachings of Pat Robertson. You're just overly sensitive to anyone refusing to endorse sexual vice.

I have an interest in Argentina that goes beyond merely having sex with chicas and this board offers lots of good information not directly related to sex with chicas, other than that I have no use for a monger board but it seems a monger board has found a use for me.

GoblinCoincidental I am sure.

Flexible Horn

03-03-06, 01:49

Yes, when an entity is progressive and pioneering (not a "has been"/ spectator like UK) it will occasionally make mistakes with its new endeavors. The discovery of America itself was a mistake.

Of course the USA is the world's army and has been for quite some time, duh. It protects weaklings that can't protect themselves like UK.

Too bad we didn't "lose" England like we "lost" Vietnam. If only we could switch.

Hi Mpexy. Can't Touch ThisThe list just gets longer and longer.

FH

Dickhead

03-03-06, 02:40

I am flat embarassed to be estadounidense right now, and I hope I never have to return to living in the country of my birth. Anyone who wonders why need only read this thread.

Iraq = Vietnam = Guatemala in 1954 = Mexico in 1845. I take no position on capitalism vs collectivism but imperialism and colonialism suck for sure.

Live and let live.

Rock Harders

03-03-06, 03:04

Mongers-

Got to agree with Dickhead on this one. It is flat out embarrassing having to admit my citizenship sometimes and field questions about the United States asinine foreign policy. I recently graduated with a a BA in International Relations, and I can tell you with reasonable expertise that the US has frequently acted in very evil ways and seriously ruined the lives of people living all over the world with various tentacles of its miscalculated realist and neorealist foreign policy. If the average Chileno or Argentino knew to the extent that I know of the role of the US government in installing and maintaining the Pinochet and Videla / Viola dictatorships, they would hate the Americans as much as Arabs do. If Henry Kissinger ever traveled to Chile, I am almost certain he would be arrested for his crimes committed against the Chilean people.

When people proudly speak of the US as the "world's army" and buy into the flat-out propaganda that the US is spreading "freedom", "democracy" and "rights" while they operate what Amnesty International refers to as the "Gulag of Our Time" in Guantanamo Bay, it really pains me. If I havent had electricity, potable water, or any government services to speak of in 3 years, as the Iraqis have, I too would be preparing for Civil War.

Keep Tabs on Your Government,

Dirk Diggler

Moore

03-03-06, 03:15

Mongers-

If the average Chileno or Argentino knew to the extent that I know of the role of the US government in installing and maintaining the Pinochet and Videla / Viola dictatorships, they would hate the Americans as much as Arabs do. If Henry Kissinger ever traveled to Chile, I am almost certain he would be arrested for his crimes committed against the Chilean people. I'm fairly certain that they do know, quite possibly more than you. Ask them (chilenos / argentinos) about it. There was a serious cause for those interventions.

I don't think anyone is claiming perfection here. My opinion, however, is that if you are truly embarrassed about your nationality, then you should take some kind of action.

Goblin

03-03-06, 03:36

The US is under attack from within to eliminate the last bastion of true freedom, destroying its international reputation with abusive foreign policy is as much part of the plan as its subversive domestic policy.

Both benefit the international upper class.

The paradox of this transitional period is that a country with a fairly high moral standard is ruled by a government committing some of the worst atrocities in the world at the behest of the foreign special interests that control it from behind the scenes.

Americans are as much duped by a fake democratic process as other republican nations but are much more the victim of internal subversive activity. In other words good people ruled by bad government.

There are many people in South America and the Arab world that actually understand that much better than the people of the US. Europe unfortunately is a different story, there we are hated to the core for the crimes committed by our government.

www.infowars.com

One of my favorite underground news websites. The guy sometimes exagerates a bit and sometimes presents information slightly out of context but otherwise it is the best alternative news reporting on the internet.

Check out the daily archives.

Goblin

Rock Harders

03-03-06, 03:52

Moore-

If you believe there was serious cause to justify the CIA intervention in Chile after the election of Socialist president Dr. Salvador Allende, you need to do some more research. To make a long story short, the CIA funded and encouraged Pinochet to launch a coup to topple a legitimately elected president, Allende, of a party the Socialists, who are obviously so benevolent and popular in Chile, that their last two presidents, Richardo Lagos, and the recently elected Michelle Bachelet, come from that same Socialist party, and Bachelet was a member of the party when Allende was elected and was persecuted by Pinochet. I think it is beyond dispute that Chile has been doing quite well under the tenure of this Socialist party.

On the subject of propping up and "educating" the Argentine military dictatorship on special CIA interrogation techniques, including the imfamous "death flights" which involved throwing kidnapped regime opponents out of airplanes over the Rio de La Plata, how can this be justified. 30,000 people unaccounted for? Kidnapping pregnant women and stealing the newborn babies before executing the mothers? I respect you Moore, but you are just dead wrong here, you need to let your midwestern unfethered trust in the US government be swept aside here. If you want further info on these topics, I can post some papers I wrote last spring on Pinochet.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

El Perro

03-03-06, 09:02

For my money, the funniest and most accurate portrayal of post 9/11 american insanity:

http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war.html

Mpexy

03-03-06, 09:02

A weighty topic such as the inner politics of CIA intervention in Chile or any other country is a bit over the head of Moore, who I'm afraid is still grappling with the concept of gravity applying in space.

Dickhead

03-03-06, 13:05

Hunt99

03-03-06, 13:16

Note that due to my "embarassment about my citizenship," or however Moore put it, I did do something; I moved out of the country. And, I did so in such a way that I don't have to pay income taxes to support this immoral war we started.

Why don't you renounce your citizenship if you hate your native country so much?

Here are details about how you can do it:

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

Go ahead, do it, "put your money where your mouth is."

Dickhead

03-03-06, 13:42

You're just trying to bait me, as usual. Why don't you get a life? But the fact is that I do not "hate my country"; I hate the current government of my country. These things run in cycles and you righties will eventually be out on your fat asses. When that happens, I might return. Or not.

But of course I have no desire to be stateless, and quite frankly have no desire to stand in any lines at any embassy at any time for any reason, when I could be mongering instead.

JengisKhan

03-03-06, 15:25

Goblin

03-03-06, 15:44

I would like to see a good report on the past dictatorship of Argentina. I don't know anything about this subject.

Goblin

Goblin

03-03-06, 15:51

Republican Congressman Ron Paul has gone on record with his prediction that the impeachment of George W. Bush is right around the corner but warned that in the meantime the US was slipping perilously close to a dictatorship.

Asked if the Democrats would use gains in the mid-term elections to set in motion impeachment proceedings against George W. Bush, Paul responded,

"I predict that would happen."

"I think he (Bush) has numerous things that the Democrats if they get a chance, not only will they be after him for that but it will be payback for the Clinton impeachment."

Paul was inclined to believe that the port sales would go ahead anyway but took a positive perspective in pointing out that it again highlighted George W. Bush's complete abandonment of conservative principles.

"At least this has awakened a lot of people and I think this is going to serve as a benefit," said Paul. "They're likely to pull this deal off but the American people are awakening now and I think there's going to be a payback period in the election."

The Congressman expressed his resignation at the passage of the Patriot Act and how it again underscores Bush's unchecked powers.

"They had a few token changes which mean nothing and under the present system he (President Bush) just ignores what he doesn't like anyway."

Asked if the US was heading into a dictatorship, Paul responded,

"It's getting close to it, it's called usurpation of power and it's done in many ways with Congress just going along because they're sound asleep and this certainly is an attack on our Constitution and on our freedoms."

Moore

03-03-06, 17:59

This thread can be useful since it has no defined topic. Hell, it can even be used for personal dating ads/solicitation in the case of Mpexy.

I recently received an online degree in Recreation from Midwestern State University so I know my stuff. No football team there but its the finest eduction that Paypal can buy. Also I read the full volume of "Lets Go:thumbsup: South America", including the Life & Times and History sections. I tore out a free hostel voucher as well.

Dirk/others, please enlighten me about the US intervention in Argentina/Chile in the 70s. I'm sure you know so much more than I do. What you've written so far is not even 1 page of Lets Go material. There were some economic interests in Chile at the time, but I believe that the 1970s Coldwar political scene was just slightly different than it is today and that the ramifications/risk of every other country in the Americas turning to the left caused some legitimate concern. Have you noticed that there is no such concern / intervention now as Chile, Argentina, Venezuela, Brazil, Uruguay, Bolivia, etc go that direction?

Chile is doing very well and has been for some time - it has a stable, organized, disciplined, pro-business economy/environment and low corruption. I'm not sure how much of this is a result of any political party but instead due to the nature of the Chilean people (very different than Argentines). The country developed well during the 17 year Pinochet regime (yes he is an evil mofo). Ive done some business there and it seems about 10,000 miles away from Argentina in every way. Its social security system has been studied by the USA as a model to follow.

As one other member said, I believe that Dickhead came here for the pussy and not as some kind of political statement or "flat embarassment". Everyone who is here for more than 330 days/year gets an approx 80k annual US income tax exclusion, so what. Besides, most expats working here make a hell of a lot more than that and have to pay US income tax on the excess.

Renouncing/losing your US citizenship is very difficult. Some people try (often for tax reasons) and can't. But if you are successful - "don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya". Embarassed to be an American, what a f*cking disgrace.

PS the address of the closest US embassy is:
Av. Colombia 4300
(C1425GMN) Buenos Aires - Argentina
Open at 10am Monday I think.
Telephone: (54) (11) 5777-4533

Goblin

03-03-06, 18:59

Rock Harders

03-03-06, 19:44

Mongers.

Read this attachment, which is a paper I wrote in May 2005 for a course on Ethics and Politics.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Moore

03-03-06, 19:53

Bobby Fischer tried to renounce his citizenship while in detention in Japan. It's quite an interesting story although again completely unrelated to whoremongering.

http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/fischer/

The radio interviews are priceless.

GoblinI remember that. As a sidenote, even if you do successfully renounce your citizenship, you're generally still liable for US income taxes for life. So when you reenter the USA for your granny's funeral with that big tax debt - "Your Fucked" - as one infamous monger would say.

Moore

03-03-06, 20:12

Mongers.

Read this attachment, which is a paper I wrote in May 2005 for a course on Ethics and Politics.

Suerte,

Dirk DigglerAlready read it in the 3rd paragraph of Lets Go.

Rock Harders

03-03-06, 20:21

Moore,

You did not even bother to read the paper or the attached bibliography, because if you did, you would see that almost none of it would be contained in a history section of a guidebook. Don't be such a bitter ignoramous.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Moore

03-03-06, 20:29

Yes I did read your 8th grade paper Dirk. You can get infinitely more info than that by doing a simple internet search. Except for the torture testimonies which I've seen in other places, your paper is probably much less detailed/informative than a Lets Go tourist book. By the way, is Wikipedia, which I use all the time, even a legitimately quotable source? Anyone can post anything on it.

You've really made an ass of yourself by posting your homework assignment on this board. I had never heard of Uof Delaware before but I'll say the 1st impression is pretty bad.

Rock Harders

03-03-06, 20:56

Moore,

I would not expect an uneducated right winger from the midwest like yourself to know anything about academics, or international relations which you have clearly exhibited via your brash and ill-informed opinions on this matter. I suggest you sit on your couch in Ohio or where else you hail, get fat, drink some pabst blue ribbon, eat some burger king, and continue to misunderstand why the world despises the United States and swear to crush the world the next time "blowback" comes the way of the United States- in the form of more airplanes crashing into buildings, or perhaps something much worse. With your ridiculous and unwavering support of the US policies, I am shocked that you havent been stabbed to death on the streets of Buenos Aires. I suggest you get back to watching the Fox News Channel as soon as possible, to assure yourself that your views are correct.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Hunt99

03-03-06, 20:59

Moore-

You did not even bother to read the paper or the attached bibliography, because if you did, you would see that almost none of it would be contained in a history section of a guidebook. Don't be such a bitter ignoramous.

Suerte,

Dirk DigglerWell, I did read it, and I agree that Lonely Planet guide is superior.

Hunt99

03-03-06, 21:14

Bobby Fischer tried to renounce his citizenship while in detention in Japan. It's quite an interesting story although again completely unrelated to whoremongering.

http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/fischer/

The radio interviews are priceless.

GoblinFrom the site:

Furthermore in collusion with the U.S. Government the Japanese immigration authorities have confiscated and destroyed Bobby Fischer's U.S. Passport. Bobby Fischer is still in jail at Narita airport in Tokyo Japan. Bobby Fischer does not wish to return to the Jew-controlled USA where he faces a kangaroo court and 10 years in Federal prison and a likely early demise or worse on trumped political charges. Nor does he wish to remain in a hostile brutal and corrupt U.S.-controlled Japan.The similarities are eerie. I ask: Is Bobby Fischer posting on Argentina Private? The arguments ring very, very familiar to some of the stuff I read here.

Andres

03-03-06, 23:26

I'm fairly certain that they do know, quite possibly more than you. Ask them (chilenos / argentinos) about it. There was a serious cause for those interventions.It depends to whom you ask. Most people in the upper and upper-middle classes supported these military coups, but not necessarily those on lower and middle classes.

Personally, I deem these events as one of the darkest periods for both countries.

Andres

Andres

03-03-06, 23:31

I would like to see a good report on the past dictatorship of Argentina. I don't know anything about this subject.

GoblinGet Robert A Potash books. That would help understand many aspects of why Argentine militaries were prone to disrupt the Constitutional rules.

Andres

Andres

03-03-06, 23:45

There were some economic interests in Chile at the time, but I believe that the 1970s Coldwar political scene was just slightly different than it is today and that the ramifications / risk of every other country in the Americas turning to the left caused some legitimate concern. Have you noticed that there is no such concern / intervention now as Chile, Argentina, Venezuela, Brazil, Uruguay, Bolivia, etc go that direction?

Chile is doing very well and has been for some time - it has a stable, organized, disciplined, pro-business economy / environment and low corruption. I'm not sure how much of this is a result of any political party but instead due to the nature of the Chilean people (very different than Argentines) The country developed well during the 17 year Pinochet regime (yes he is an evil mofo) Ive done some business there and it seems about 10,000 miles away from Argentina in every way. Its social security system has been studied by the USA as a model to follow. The first paragraph resumes much of the reasons for the despise that many non-Americans feel for the US foreign policies. During these years, US officials were repeating continuously that "we must get rid of Communism because it is a threat to Liberty and Democracy". However, when people in countries like Chile in 1970 or Guatemala in 1954 chose a left-wing government in very clean elections, governments that respected fredom of speech and press, the US finds an excuse to topple such regimes "in the name of Liberty and Democracy". What really mattered was the control of natural resources, not the respect to Liberty and Democracy.

You are wrong about the 17 years of Pinochet. He took power in 1973 and didn't entail any serious reform until 1985-1986. When it was pretty certain that Chile couldn't sustain merely on non-renewable natural resources such as copper, they triggered the reforms, which were helped by an International environment that doesn't exist anymore (the huge growth of the South East Asian tigers)

During these first 10-13 years, the Chilean militaries, although not that corrupt as the Argentinian ones, were seriously involved in corruption scandals typical of banana republics. For instance, some sons and daughters of Pinochet are being prosecuted and arrested nowadays because they were involved in fraud with public funds (you can read that in many newspapers during the last 2 weeks)

Andres

Rock Harders

03-04-06, 00:00

Hunt99/ Moore-

At no point did I attempt to compare that paper to the background information given by either Lonely Planet or Let's Go guides, nor did I claim such. It was only a paper that contained some information pertinent to my argument regarding US foreign policy in regard to Chile and Argentina that was in discussion on the AP board- which was basically refuting Moore's statements that the US involvement in the dictatorships of Pinochet and Videla were necessary.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Moore

03-04-06, 02:36

The first paragraph resumes much of the reasons for the despise that many non-Americans feel for the US foreign policies. During these years, US officials were repeating continuously that "we must get rid of Communism because it is a threat to Liberty and Democracy". However, when people in countries like Chile in 1970 or Guatemala in 1954 chose a left-wing government in very clean elections, governments that respected fredom of speech and press, the US finds an excuse to topple such regimes "in the name of Liberty and Democracy". What really mattered was the control of natural resources, not the respect to Liberty and Democracy.

You are wrong about the 17 years of Pinochet. He took power in 1973 and didn't entail any serious reform until 1985-1986. When it was pretty certain that Chile couldn't sustain merely on non-renewable natural resources such as copper, they triggered the reforms, which were helped by an International environment that doesn't exist anymore (the huge growth of the South East Asian tigers)

During these first 10-13 years, the Chilean militaries, although not that corrupt as the Argentinian ones, were seriously involved in corruption scandals typical of banana republics. For instance, some sons and daughters of Pinochet are being prosecuted and arrested nowadays because they were involved in fraud with public funds (you can read that in many newspapers during the last 2 weeks)

AndresI agree Andres that Liberty and Democracy is not such a good term especially when the assassination of a democratically elected official (Allende) is involved. In that period, the USA was not going to let another Americas country "go communist" (quoting Kissinger), democratically elected or not, free speech or not. Alignment with the USSR in "USA's backyard" was a serious threat (Cuban nuclear missle crisis 1962 for instance almost caused WW3). Castro was becoming very chummy with Chile at the time of Allende's election.

Are you sure that natural resources were the primary cause for such drastic actions in Chile? Copper is not oil, sad to say it like that but its true. Some Argentines claim that the US is buying Argentine land in order to take its water. Doesnt sound so credible?There was no meddling with the election of Bachelet or Lula, yet the natural resources are still there.

Thats politics. Invading a country in the name of Liberty and Democracy sounds nicer than invading in the name of oil, yes? I would rather see it called Operation Petroleum with full disclosure that Democracy in the invaded country doesnt count for shit, but Im not a politician.

Goblin

03-04-06, 02:40

Hunt99

03-04-06, 10:49

TWhat really mattered was the control of natural resources, not the respect to Liberty and Democracy.This is quite simply nonsense. If "control of natural resources" drives American policy, why has and why does the US support Israel? The Arab countries who are sworn enemies of Israel have 10000% more natural resources than Israel does. We would have a steady stream of these resources and peace (peace of the Jewish grave, of course) if we were to abandon this policy. I could cite numerous other examples (why am I paying $2.50 a gallon for gas?), but the Israel example puts the lie to the claim that America is driven by a desire to "control the world's natural resources." If Chile's copper disappeared tomorrow it would mean nothing to the US.

You are wrong about the 17 years of Pinochet. He took power in 1973 and didn't entail any serious reform until 1985-1986. When it was pretty certain that Chile couldn't sustain merely on non-renewable natural resources such as copper, they triggered the reforms, which were helped by an International environment that doesn't exist anymore (the huge growth of the South East Asian tigers)

Incorrect. The Pinochet government inherited an enormous mess from the Marxist regime of Allende, who sought to subvert the constitutional processes to further his own consolidation of power. Prior to his overthrow the Chilean military had a long tradition of non-interference in civilian affairs comparable to the tradition of the US military. For example, Pinochet and the other military leaders put down a coup attempt taken against Allende in June 1973. Only an extreme situation of breakdown of civil society in Chile, abetted but not controlled by Cuban and Soviet intervention (in 1971, for example, Fidel Castro spent four weeks in Chile touring and "consulting" with Allende ;) ), caused the Chilean military to act.

Why did they act? I don't want to turn this into a history lesson, but to suggest that the CIA or US controlled the coup is nonsense. In August 1973, a month before the Pinochet coup, the democratically elected Chilean Chamber of Deputies passed a resolution by a vote of 81 to 47 declaring Allende to have violated the Chilean Constitution in his Cuban-inspired "reforms" and calling for the Chilean military to act to remove him from power. In short, it was a Chilean coup which had the support of the US. It would have happened even if the US had opposed it.

The overhaul of the Chilean economy began in 1974 with the appointment of Sergio de Castro, the first of "Los Chicago Boys" as finance minister. In March 1975 de Castro and his group of market-oriented economists participated in a grounbreaking economic conference with, among others, Nobel Prize winner Milton Friedman, mapping out a free-market transformation of Chile. While I don't want to belabor the point, the point is that the transformation of Chile from socialist backwater to the most prosperous country in Latin America wasn't a last-gasp reform of a Banana Republic caudillo (who ruled dictatorially and was indisputably corrupt to a degree, but who left his country economically far better off than when he seized power, something all Chileans, except unredeemed Marxists, acknowledge).

Argentina would have been blessed to have had such enlightened economic policies as Chile has had since 1974. Chile's per capita GDP has grown by 4%+ a year over the past 30 years. Argentina's, by contrast, has grown by 0.4%. Once upon a time Argentina was one of the richest countries in the world. 55 years of socialism has changed all that. :(

Rock Harders

03-04-06, 12:23

Hunt99

03-04-06, 16:38

Hunt99-

The US supports Israel for two reasons: 1) The millions, of wealthy, highly influencial jewish people who reside in the US. 2) The US views Israel as an oasis of reason in the sea of insanity that is the Arab Middle East, essentially a nation that they (the US) can control. Although Israel lacks any valuable natural resources, they are in close proximity to billions of barrels of oil, and thus are a power broker in the region, if you don't believe that, see the results of their wars with their arab neighbors. Part of the reason for going ito Iraq (IMO) was to establish a new US controlled state in order to move away from only having Israel as an ally in the region. So really, in the case of Israel, it is the proximity to very important natural resources (combined with the powerful US jewish lobby) that drives the US policy. Ah, The Jews. Craftly little buggers, aren't they? You been discussing the Jews with Bobby Fischer?:D.

I do not know where you got your information on Chile, but it looks like it must be drawn from Henry Kissinger's memoirs. I do not feel like arguing anymore about Chile, I have proved enough factual information and a bibliography, so I am not going to say anything else about it.Information? From original sources, of course.

But let's look at the information, which is factual.

* Allende's government was Marxist.

* Allende's government subverted the democratic process.

* Fidel Castro spent a month in Chile in 1971.

* Cuban "advisers" helped the Allende government in its "reforms."

* The Chilean military leadership put down a coup attempt in June 1973.

* The Chilean Chamber of Deputies voted 2-1 for a resolution in August 1973 finding that Allende had unconstitutionally broken down the democratic process.

* That same resolution called for the Chilean military to take action, which they did.

* The Chilean military junta, acting through Los Chicago Boys, initiated free market reforms in 1974.

* The Chilean per capita GDP grew at 4%+ per year for the past 30 years (one of the highest rates in the world, by the way, though I didn't mention that in my first post)

Now those are all verfiable historical facts, and don't rely upon opinion, analysis, or Wikipedia articles. Frankly, if you are going to publish a college-level paper about Chilean history, you ought first to establish your facts, go to original sources, and then analyze. In particular, you should have reviewed the text of the Chilean parliament's August 1973 resolution to gain a sense of the time from a contemporary primary source (and, I should add, as well as Allende's response to it). It also would have been helpful to examine the US government's internal documentation related to the coup, in particular the transcripts of President Nixon's conversations with Secretary of State Kissinger on the subject. (You'd find that in their own unguarded discussion, they noted that they supported the goal of the coup, but were not in control of it and had little if any foreknowledge of it.)

In a good paper, I'd have liked to have seen some of this. You could draw your conclusions, whatever they might be, based upon some verfiable facts. Instead, I think that you pretty much relied upon secondary and tertiary analyses and simply repeated ideological shibboleths, like calling for Donald Rumsfeld to be tried before an International War Crimes Tribunal. Not intellectually rigorous (more like a wacko blogger's musings) or even much beyond what one would read in the first pages of Lonely Planet's Guide to Chile. In fact, I doubt that Lonely Planet's editors would allow such a ridiculous thing like "Kissinger is a war criminal" to grace their pages.

Andres

03-04-06, 17:10

I agree Andres that Liberty and Democracy is not such a good term especially when the assassination of a democratically elected official (Allende) is involved. In that period, the USA was not going to let another Americas country "go communist" (quoting Kissinger) democratically elected or not, free speech or not. Alignment with the USSR in "USA's backyard" was a serious threat (Cuban nuclear missle crisis 1962 for instance almost caused WW3) Castro was becoming very chummy with Chile at the time of Allende's election.

Are you sure that natural resources were the primary cause for such drastic actions in Chile? Copper is not oil, sad to say it like that but its true. Some Argentines claim that the US is buying Argentine land in order to take its water. Doesnt sound so credible? There was no meddling with the election of Bachelet or Lula, yet the natural resources are still there.

Thats politics. Invading a country in the name of Liberty and Democracy sounds nicer than invading in the name of oil, yes? I would rather see it called Operation Petroleum with full disclosure that Democracy in the invaded country doesnt count for shit, but I'm not a politician.Paradoxically, the US ended up doing the same that they thought the USSR would do in the region: They curtailed democracy and get rid of independent governments, specially those less permeable to the lobby of the local US Chamber of Commerce.

Chile never had a strong industrial base, and export of crops and minerals (fruit, lumber, cupper, nitrates, etc) made up the backbone of the most important investments.

Andres

Andres

03-04-06, 17:50

This is quite simply nonsense. If "control of natural resources" drives American policy, why has and why does the US support Israel? The Arab countries who are sworn enemies of Israel have 10000% more natural resources than Israel does. We would have a steady stream of these resources and peace (peace of the Jewish grave, of course) if we were to abandon this policy. I could cite numerous other examples (why am I paying $2.50 a gallon for gas? But the Israel example puts the lie to the claim that America is driven by a desire to "control the world's natural resources." If Chile's copper disappeared tomorrow it would mean nothing to the US.

Incorrect. The Pinochet government inherited an enormous mess from the Marxist regime of Allende, who sought to subvert the constitutional processes to further his own consolidation of power. Prior to his overthrow the Chilean military had a long tradition of non-interference in civilian affairs comparable to the tradition of the US military. For example, Pinochet and the other military leaders put down a coup attempt taken against Allende in June 1973. Only an extreme situation of breakdown of civil society in Chile, abetted but not controlled by Cuban and Soviet intervention (in 1971, for example, Fidel Castro spent four weeks in Chile touring and "consulting" with Allende;)) caused the Chilean military to act.

Why did they act? I don't want to turn this into a history lesson, but to suggest that the CIA or US controlled the coup is nonsense. In August 1973, a month before the Pinochet coup, the democratically elected Chilean Chamber of Deputies passed a resolution by a vote of 81 to 47 declaring Allende to have violated the Chilean Constitution in his Cuban-inspired "reforms" and calling for the Chilean military to act to remove him from power. In short, it was a Chilean coup which had the support of the US. It would have happened even if the US had opposed it.

The overhaul of the Chilean economy began in 1974 with the appointment of Sergio de Castro, the first of "Los Chicago Boys" as finance minister. In March 1975 de Castro and his group of market-oriented economists participated in a grounbreaking economic conference with, among others, Nobel Prize winner Milton Friedman, mapping out a free-market transformation of Chile. While I don't want to belabor the point, the point is that the transformation of Chile from socialist backwater to the most prosperous country in Latin America wasn't a last-gasp reform of a Banana Republic caudillo (who ruled dictatorially and was indisputably corrupt to a degree, but who left his country economically far better off than when he seized power, something all Chileans, except unredeemed Marxists, acknowledge)

Argentina would have been blessed to have had such enlightened economic policies as Chile has had since 1974. Chile's per capita GDP has grown by 4%+ a year over the past 30 years. Argentina's, by contrast, has grown by 0.4%. Once upon a time Argentina was one of the richest countries in the world. 55 years of socialism has changed all that.:(I never said that the control of natural resources is the ONLY criterium to guide US foreign policies. What I said is that Chile was important to the US in terms of natural resources, if not for the use of the Western world, at least for being unavailable to the USSR block.

Respect to the military coup to Allende, you should remember that the Constitution is there to be RESPECTED, not to be overruled. The Allende administration was pretty chaotic, but a week BEFORE the coup, the Allende party (Union Popular) got 44% of the votes, with the opposition being divided, a fact that shows that UP government was somewhat popular (at least, more than any other organization) That is, none of the alledged "consolidation of power" (something that Pinochet REALLY did during more than 17 years) implied a curtail of democratic rules by the UP government: Elections were hold and the UP didn't get most of the votes.

Besides, what Castro does or did is not of the Chilean military business, who are there to OBEY the civilian authorities (as it is in the US, mind you) and not to decide or judge in their place. If militaries believe that they can rule the country better, they should quit service and enroll in political campaigns (as many did in the US, Eisenhower among them)

As a side note, if you thing that a 4 week visit in 1971 justifies the overthrown of a whole government 2 YEARS LATER, I would like that you explain why. Chilean officials were OBSESSED for decades in trying to justify their highly-criminal acts by means of an alledged Cuban-Soviet threat. So far, no evidence (or worst, contradictory evidence)

In the Chilean constitution, as well as in the US one, there is a process for impeaching presidents who don't respect the rules. It is very curious that Allende could increase its 35% control of the Low Chamber to 44% in early September 1973, given that their government was a mess. Isn't it? The only thing that explaines such events is that the economic ideas of the Allende government were not sound, but the opposition didn't have a sound plan either that could convince the Chilean society to massively vote for them.

Whoever was appointed as minister here or there is irrelevant (Martinez de Hoz was also surounded by many Chicago boys, who wreak havoc in the Argentine economy) What is relevant is that the policies weren't triggered until the mid 1980s. The bankrupcy of LAN Chile was a study-case example of how the economy was poorly driven by Pinochet in his early years, and many social measures such as Mamelucos Amarillos didn't started until the mid 80s.

It was the uprisal of the FMRL and the unrest of the civilian society after 1983 that convinced the Chilean militaries to govern seriously, specially when Videla was being prosecuted and arrested across the border for his crimes. And as for the CIA involvement, you can visit the bunker in Boston where the CIA was organizing those actions.

As of the 'Chilean miracle", I can tell you that you will find WAY more Chilean immigrants in Argentina than the way around. Pretty lame for a great economic miracle, isn't it?

Why do you say that Argentina lived under 55 years of "socialism"? What are the basis of such point of view? Anyone in Argentina arguing that Alsogaray and Krieger Vasena followed "socialists" rules would be taken as a good comediant.

Andres

Andres

03-04-06, 18:04

* Allende's government subverted the democratic process.

* Cuban "advisers" helped the Allende government in its "reforms."

* The Chilean Chamber of Deputies voted 2-1 for a resolution in August 1973 finding that Allende had unconstitutionally broken down the democratic process.

In particular, you should have reviewed the text of the Chilean parliament's August 1973 resolution to gain a sense of the time from a contemporary primary source (and, I should add, as well as Allende's response to it)

In fact, I doubt that Lonely Planet's editors would allow such a ridiculous thing like "Kissinger is a war criminal" to grace their pages.Your analysis doesn't hold. If Allende was tweaking the "democratic process" (what do you mean by that? And the congress voted for his remotion, why didn't the militaries take power on the spot and IMMIDEATELY called for "free elections" to secure such "democratic rules" in place?

Clearly, the militaries were following part of the elite agenda, which meant to keep a system not very enticing for the average Chilean citizen. That's why they didn't try the polls, and why RN and UDI could NEVER win a presidential election after 1990, despite the alledged "miracle" thet free market reforms created.

You should remember that Kissinger was summoned by a French judge a few years ago when he visited Paris, and the US Embassy had to come to his rescue.

Andres

Andres

03-04-06, 18:13

It's really the hidden domestic agenda of the US government that should be of concern to everyone.

Andres; That author you recommended writes about the activities of the military. I'm more interested to learn about the fall of the dictatorship. Any suggestions?

GoblinWell, the fall of the Proceso dictatorship is pretty evident: The defeat on the Malvinas / Falklands war in June 1982 being the main reason, coupled with the Petrodollar financial crisis and the consequences of the "Dirty War" from 1975 to 1979.

Andres

JengisKhan

03-04-06, 20:05

* Allende's government was Marxist.

* Allende's government subverted the democratic process.

* Fidel Castro spent a month in Chile in 1971.

* Cuban "advisers" helped the Allende government in its "reforms."

* The Chilean military leadership put down a coup attempt in June 1973.

* The Chilean Chamber of Deputies voted 2-1 for a resolution in August 1973 finding that Allende had unconstitutionally broken down the democratic process.

* That same resolution called for the Chilean military to take action, which they did.

* The Chilean military junta, acting through Los Chicago Boys, initiated free market reforms in 1974.

* The Chilean per capita GDP grew at 4%+ per year for the past 30 years (one of the highest rates in the world, by the way, though I didn't mention that in my first post)

Now those are all verfiable historical facts, and don't rely upon opinion, analysis, or Wikipedia articles. Frankly, if you are going to publish a college-level paper about Chilean history, you ought first to establish your facts, go to original sources, and then analyze. In particular, you should have reviewed the text of the Chilean parliament's August 1973 resolution to gain a sense of the time from a contemporary primary source (and, I should add, as well as Allende's response to it) It also would have been helpful to examine the US government's internal documentation related to the coup, in particular the transcripts of President Nixon's conversations with Secretary of State Kissinger on the subject. (You'd find that in their own unguarded discussion, they noted that they supported the goal of the coup, but were not in control of it and had little if any foreknowledge of it.

In a good paper, I'd have liked to have seen some of this. You could draw your conclusions, whatever they might be, based upon some verfiable facts. Instead, I think that you pretty much relied upon secondary and tertiary analyses and simply repeated ideological shibboleths, like calling for Donald Rumsfeld to be tried before an International War Crimes Tribunal. Not intellectually rigorous (more like a wacko blogger's musings) or even much beyond what one would read in the first pages of Lonely Planet's Guide to Chile. In fact, I doubt that Lonely Planet's editors would allow such a ridiculous thing like "Kissinger is a war criminal" to grace their pages.Subvert the democratic proccess? Thats a laugh. Sounds like the mission statement of you. S. Foreign policy in Latin America.

The US in Chile is the same BS as the US in every other country in the world, whether it be Iraq (supporting Saddamn Hussein) or Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Nicaragua, or even more recently in Venezuela. Don't start defending Pinochet, man. Thats f'd up. Allende was the people's choice, Pinochet was the US governement's choice (where they had no business being involved) what are you a goddamn Nazi? Who cares what he did for the economy, he was a f*cking butcher.

And the most hypocritical BS ever is that we are now pretending to be the world's defender of democracy. What a crock of sh*t.

Moore

03-05-06, 03:58

Hunt99

03-05-06, 13:31

Subvert the democratic proccess? Thats a laugh. Sounds like the mission statement of you. S. Foreign policy in Latin America.Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the many contributions made to global peace, democracy, and prosperity by the USSR and Cuba?

Don't start defending Pinochet, man. Thats f'd up. Who's defending Pinochet? Pointing out his regime's obvious economic achievements does not equate to defending his political policies.

Allende was the people's choice, Actually, Allende was elected with a mere 36% of the vote in 1970. Which means 2 out of 3 Chileans didn't vote for him. In 1973, the Chilean legislature voted by a 2-1 margin declaring his actions to have subverted the democratic process. Things like rule by diktat, seizure of private property without compensation, and ignoring legislative powers under the Chilean constitution. The same kinds of things done by other Marxists like Vladimir Lenin in Russia and Fidel Castro in Cuba. Not coincidentially those two countries were the most influential advisers in Allende's Chile.

Perhaps you should educate yourself by reading the August 1973 resolution of the Chilean Chamber of Deputies which outlines Allende's actions, declared democracy in the country to have broken down, and calling on the Chilean military to act.

http://www.josepinera.com/pag/pag_tex_quiebredemoc_en.htm

Pinochet was the US governement's choice (where they had no business being involved) When the Soviet Union and Cuba were involved in trying to subvert a country, it became the US's business. And in any event, as I've shown earlier, the US neither controlled nor frankly even had much foreknowledge of the September 1973 coup which removed Allende's Marxist government from power. It would have happened even if the US had opposed it.

what are you a goddamn Nazi? No, I'm not. What are you? A namecaller? I'm willing to discuss this issue in a mature way, frankly I don't think discussions of politics or religion belong on this board, but so long as they do occur, I'll participate in a measured way.

Who cares what he did for the economy, he was a f*cking butcher.No question he acted ruthlessly and in a way which offends democratic sensibilities. But eventually he left of his own accord, and in a way which allowed democratic government to flourish in Chile - and all the while allowing the country to achieve about the highest level of economic growth in the world since 1975. The record is not all terrible. Indeed, the democratic governments elected since 1990 have continued and even deepened the free market reforms initiated under the Pinochet dictatorship.

And the most hypocritical BS ever is that we are now pretending to be the world's defender of democracy. What a crock of sh*t.Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Brazil, El Salvador, Chile, Colombia, Panama, South Africa, Namibia, and yes Iraq - all of which are functioning democracies established at least in part by US support for those democratic reforms. I could name more countries but when a person like you has his mind made up, his mind is made up.

Goblin

03-05-06, 16:22

Hunt99,

Israel is probably not a good foreign policy reference or precedent as there is really no other case like it. And, of course, the power / influence of the Jews (not a bad word as you imply) is incredible.

Andres,

The success and "miracle" of Chile is undeniable. Its like an efficient, prosperous, progressive island that doesnt belong to South America. I don't understand why many Argentines don't take the 90 minute flight there for better opportunities. For an ambitious worker / professional, Argentina is hopeless in my opinion.It's also a well known fact that the house of Rothschild had a tremendous influence in creating the state of Israel using their significant control over British politics via their virtual ownership of the bank of England to wrest this portion of palestine from the remnant of the British run Ottoman empire for displaced Jews.

A presence in the middle east to secure the oil supply is one agenda, another is control over strategic Jerusalem to which so many people attach a spiritual significance. Just like the crusaders of the middle ages and the templar guards of the Pope so do the secular political powers of today pursue this terroritory for much the same reason.

That's not being an anti semite, that's simply telling the truth.

Goblin

Moore

03-05-06, 19:35

Goblin,

What is an "anti semite", or a "semite", exactly?

Goblin

03-05-06, 19:49

Goblin,

What is an "anti semite", or a "semite", exactly?Ok call it anti Jewish then. The classic definition is not really relevant to the point I was trying to make.

Goblin

Goblin

03-05-06, 19:51

I'm willing to discuss this issue in a mature way.Now that's a stretch.

Goblin.

Andres

03-05-06, 22:12

Andres,

The success and "miracle" of Chile is undeniable. Its like an efficient, prosperous, progressive island that doesn't belong to South America. I don't understand why many Argentines don't take the 90 minute flight there for better opportunities. For an ambitious worker / professional, Argentina is hopeless in my opinion.Moore,

We should define clearly what "miracle" means. A better macroeconomic environment and a less unstable social and political frame? A better standard of living and of consumption for all social segments?

I lived and worked in Providencia and Las Condes districts of Santiago for several months. Indeed, they seem not to belong to South America. However, if you take a ride to those boroughs west of Santa Maria hills and far south of the Alameda you will find a sharp contrast, and both places are part of Chile.

I acknowledge that Chile has generally improved since 1986. However, such improvement didn't benefit on the same degree all social groups.

Behind the foreground of the seamingly Marxist-Capitalist dispute of 1970's Chile, there were several social divisions. Among them are those related to cultural issues (the global upraise of the youth during the late 60s vs the reaction of traditional values of a conservative country) and, above all, racial issues (Mapuche native descents vs European immigrant descents)

As of Argentinians living in Chile, it depends on many issues, some of which aren't very enticing. First, the legal working hours are much higher than in BA (48 hours per week) Second, air and water quality in Santiago leaves a lot to be desired. Third, a few positions for some professional profiles may provide better salaries, but the average salary isn't much better than in BA.

Andres

Rock Harders

03-06-06, 01:53

Moore-

"Semites" refers to people of the Semitic race, which includes "native" israelis (those who have had ancestors living in that territory since biblical times) however, other non-jewish groups also decend from the Semitic race, Lebanese, Palestinians, etc. I believe that both Hebrew and Arabic (and probably a few other smaller languages, like Assyrian) are Semitic languages, in the same way that English is considered a Germanic language. You may already know all of this and are probably just fucking with Goblin.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Moore

03-06-06, 02:11

Goblin

03-06-06, 02:13

Moore

03-06-06, 02:42

Oh and Sodomites are mongers who do chicas greek.

GoblinNot according the the Bible, or some US state laws (various definitions by state).

What youre referring to is called servicio completo in these parts.

Moore

03-06-06, 03:18

Moore,

We should define clearly what "miracle" means. A better macroeconomic environment and a less unstable social and political frame? A better standard of living and of consumption for all social segments?

I lived and worked in Providencia and Las Condes districts of Santiago for several months. Indeed, they seem not to belong to South America. However, if you take a ride to those boroughs west of Santa Maria hills and far south of the Alameda you will find a sharp contrast, and both places are part of Chile.

I acknowledge that Chile has generally improved since 1986. However, such improvement didn't benefit on the same degree all social groups.

Behind the foreground of the seamingly Marxist-Capitalist dispute of 1970's Chile, there were several social divisions. Among them are those related to cultural issues (the global upraise of the youth during the late 60s vs the reaction of traditional values of a conservative country) and, above all, racial issues (Mapuche native descents vs European immigrant descents)

As of Argentinians living in Chile, it depends on many issues, some of which aren't very enticing. First, the legal working hours are much higher than in BA (48 hours per week) Second, air and water quality in Santiago leaves a lot to be desired. Third, a few positions for some professional profiles may provide better salaries, but the average salary isn't much better than in BA.

AndresAndres,

Are you sure that you're not letting general Argentine-Chilean (and Argentine-South American) prejudices, dislikes, and condescending attitudes hinder rationality here? I imagine these feelings might me exacerbated when such a county has leapfrogged its neighbor in terms of general success and progress. You seem to downplay Chile by calling it merely "less unstable" and "not as corrupt" as Argentina. This is somewhat like calling Switzerland "not as poor" as Haiti.

Air/water quality as a deciding factor? Come on. Would someone turn down a good opportunity in Los Angeles just because there is smog there? Places like LA and Santiago located on the Pacific and surrounded by mountains tend to have ventilation issues. I thought the air/water quality in BA was quite poor anyway.

100% of Americans are not wealthy – believe it or not there are sizeable sectors of poverty in USA like in Chile, but that does not disqualify said country from being a land of opportunity by any means. LBJs 1960s War Against Poverty program was not 100% successful but it that does not seem relevant here.

48 honest hours per week is a problem? That doesn't seem to be a good attitude for someone looking to get ahead. Besides, I would think that 48 legal hours in Chile would be preferable to 90 illegal, off-the-records, often unproductive hours in Argentina. The labor regulations are an absolute nightmare here, which may explain why so many people are "black" employees and much more effort is directed towards evading the law than complying with it (or changing it to a more reasonable system).

Rock Harders

03-06-06, 04:51

Moore / Hunt99-

I think that your mixed feelings on Pinochet and his tenure are similar to those felt by many Chileans on the subject. They view Pinochet as having committed heinous crimes, but some Chileans see those crimes as the price that needed to be paid in order to "straighten out" and improve the Chilean state. Chileans struggle with the Pinochet legacy in a way that Argentines never do with the legacy of El Proceso. However, Pinochet's heinous crimes outweigh any positive aspects he may or may not have contributed. 10,000 unaccounted for persons is simply unacceptable.

Hitler invented the modern superhighway, hastened the rise of the German economy from depression, and indirectly moved the science of brain surgery perhaps 100 years ahead. He also facilitated the invention of serious rocket technology that led to the use of space for communications and other fields. However, nobody other than Marge Schott thinks that Hitler's legacy is anything but that of a truly evil murderer. Obviously Pinochet is no Hitler, and 10,000 is not 5 million, I think my point is made here. If you were a friend or relative of one of the 10,000 who is a "desaparecido", you wouldnt care about what Pinochet did for the Chilean economy.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Hunt99

03-06-06, 11:19

Moore / Hunt99-

I think that your mixed feelings on Pinochet and his tenure are similar to those felt by many Chileans on the subject. They view Pinochet as having committed heinous crimes, but some Chileans see those crimes as the price that needed to be paid in order to "straighten out" and improve the Chilean state. Chileans struggle with the Pinochet legacy in a way that Argentines never do with the legacy of El Proceso.Dirk, I have a very good friend who has spent his entire adult life in the international development arena, working both for the US government as well as various international development organizations. In discussing Iraq and the Bush Administration's foreign policy which has developed since 9/11, his observation was that spreading democracy is far less important than spreading the concepts of free markets and respect for private property. In essence, his idea is that not everyone cares about or is affected by political liberty, but that everybody has a stake in a growing economic system which encourages self-reliance and hard work. I'm toying with this concept personally, and see much to be positively said about it, which probably influences how I view Chile. My friend is a liberal Democrat, if that makes any difference when considering his opinion, but of course not of the dubious stripe which calls the President a second Hitler and his supporters Nazis.

Can a leader who manages to avoid directly killing 10,000 of his citizens, yet plunges millions of them into abject poverty (killing many just as assuredly as if he had put bullets into their brains), be said to be any better than one who provides generalized prosperity yet kills off the biggest opponents of his regime? Welcome Hugo Chavez, meet Mr. Pinochet.

Goblin

03-06-06, 19:09

A good example of the US implementing free markets and respect for private property in Iraq can be found right here.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2005/281105trophyvideo.htm

Or here.

http://www.prisonplanet.tv/video/050204stolewood.htm

Looks like US foreign policy has finally been vindicated.

Goblin

Hunt99

03-06-06, 22:01

This message is hidden because Goblin is on your ignore list.Probably the wisest thing I've ever read which was associated to Goblin's handle.

What a useful feature! Thanks, Jackson.

http://www.argentinaprivate.com/forum/profile.php?do=editlist

Andres

03-06-06, 23:08

Andres,

Are you sure that you're not letting general Argentine-Chilean (and Argentine-South American) prejudices, dislikes, and condescending attitudes hinder rationality here? I imagine these feelings might me exacerbated when such a county has leapfrogged its neighbor in terms of general success and progress. You seem to downplay Chile by calling it merely "less unstable" and "not as corrupt" as Argentina. This is somewhat like calling Switzerland "not as poor" as Haiti.

Air / water quality as a deciding factor? Come on. Would someone turn down a good opportunity in Los Angeles just because there is smog there? Places like LA and Santiago located on the Pacific and surrounded by mountains tend to have ventilation issues. I thought the air / water quality in BA was quite poor anyway.

100% of Americans are not wealthy – believe it or not there are sizeable sectors of poverty in USA like in Chile, but that does not disqualify said country from being a land of opportunity by any means. LBJs 1960s War Against Poverty program was not 100% successful but it that does not seem relevant here.

48 honest hours per week is a problem? That doesn't seem to be a good attitude for someone looking to get ahead. Besides, I would think that 48 legal hours in Chile would be preferable to 90 illegal, off-the-records, often unproductive hours in Argentina. The labor regulations are an absolute nightmare here, which may explain why so many people are "black" employees and much more effort is directed towards evading the law than complying with it (or changing it to a more reasonable system)Moore:

I prefer to move in the field of facts, which proove that the ratio of Chileans living in Argentina to the total population are much higher than the ratio of Argentines in Chile to the total population. If Chile were a much better country to live, Argentines would settle there in flocks, and that's not happening (while that happens in relation to Peruvians)

Chile stands in a better position than Argentina in many aspects (financial system, some of its aspects Argentina is copying) but it is still a country with a non-industrial economic base and too much dispersion of wealth.

As of the number of hours worked per week, it is just a piece of info showing that the working system isn't that enticing for someone who wants to balance lifestyle and work, all of that assuming that salaries are high enough. Productivity and number of hours worked aren't very much correlated.

As of pollution, it is jsut a way to say that people looking for a better work / life environment wouldn't like to live in a smog pit such as Santiago or Mexico DF.

Andres

JengisKhan

03-07-06, 03:39

Moore:

I prefer to move in the field of facts, which proove that the ratio of Chileans living in Argentina to the total population are much higher than the ratio of Argentines in Chile to the total population. If Chile were a much better country to live, Argentines would settle there in flocks, and that's not happening (while that happens in relation to Peruvians)

Chile stands in a better position than Argentina in many aspects (financial system, some of its aspects Argentina is copying) but it is still a country with a non-industrial economic base and too much dispersion of wealth.

As of the number of hours worked per week, it is just a piece of info showing that the woking system isn't that enticing for someone who wants to balance lifestyle and work, all of that assuming that salaries are high enough. Productivity and number of hours worked aren't very much correlated.

As of pollution, it is jsut a way to say that people looking for a better work / life environment wouldn't like to live in a smog pit such as Santiago or Mexico DF.

AndresI agree. Have you ever been to Santiago? Its a sh_thole. Buenos Aires is much nicer. I mean Chile is a nice country overall, very beautiful, but the food is god awful and the women are not hot. Argentina is a much nicer place to live!

One Tree Hill

03-07-06, 04:08

I am afraid that the 1st link must be credited to our UK brethren. Quite disturbing. War is hell.

A good example of the US implementing free markets and respect for private property in Iraq can be found right here.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2005/281105trophyvideo.htm

Or here.

http://www.prisonplanet.tv/video/050204stolewood.htm

Looks like US foreign policy has finally been vindicated.

Goblin

Goblin

03-08-06, 16:43

By Edward Safranski

There's an old Elvis Presley song that goes something like. I just can't go on, suspicious minds. Or something like that.

I thought of that song because I just heard that most or all of the airports in the country are experiencing shut downs or major delays. Supposedly it's because the mainframe computers that handle flight scheduling have gone down.

That may well be. However since it is a fact that our own government is behind every major "terrorist" attack against us, it is always advisable to view any "official" story with multiple grains of salt.

It is possible that the authorities are telling the truth and the computers actually did crash. It is also very possible that they are setting up the next "terrorist" attack in the near future and they just need some pretext in order to do some preparation involving aircraft and airports. I'm not an expert in airport operations so I can't think in terms of specific details. However the CIA, Mossad, and the traitors in the military who serve Dick Cheney and the Bush Crime Family are experts. I'm sure they can plan major evil events by shutting down the airports for a few hours, if indeed that is what is taking place right now. In these days of murderous traitors in the White House and at the highest stages of all government agencies, nothing can be taken for granted.