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So far the policia have been very professional and friendly during my time in BA. No corruption or anything that seems to be at the street cop level at least.
The few times I've had to ask directions or talk to a cop, it was always friendly and no problems. Last night was a more involved interaction though that I thought deserves mention.
Took a brand new taxi from Recoleta out to Belgrano - Barrio Chino to get some chinese takeout but halfway there the cab developed clutch problems and it completely blew out. Leading us to pull over on the side of this large main road on the way to Belgrano. It's sort of highway like, no businesses or sidewalks on either side, it's basically just an express way.
The replacement taxi which the driver called for said would take 20 min or more, and I couldn't wave down any taxis as it seemed every single one on this highway type road was all with passengers, no free ones.
Luckily, a police car with two officers pull up a min later and after the cab driver tells them what's wrong with his car, they ask me where I was going and I tell them Barrio Chino so they smile and offer me a ride.
Nice chat and joking around with the cops along the 7-8 min ride there, just two regular guys who happen to be cops on the job.
I agree with most of Mpexy's post regarding the disposition of local cops. As a common pedestrian/bystander, the cops here have always been quite friendly and helpful to me (directions, basic questions, etc). My experience with several US cops has been just the opposite - many seem to be on a power trip and have a chip on their shoulder.
However, in five years here every Argentine cop I've ever dealt with has been more crooked than a 3-dollar bill. My dealings with them have been mostly for minor traffic infractions. They are so damn corrupt that you usually don't even have to beat around the bush when bribing them. Some will even give you a homemade laminated "menu" of bribe prices. Bad Uturn - 15 pesos, invalid drivers license - 30 pesos. I'm 90% certain that some of these guys aren't even cops. Some carry ratty old PFA jackets in the trunk but are simply street thugs that are connected to the regular police (talking from experience).
Hell I'd rather pay 20 pesos under the table for running a "yellow" light bribe trap than go to court anyway. When they realize you're American you can see their eyeballs go "cha-ching" with $$$ like a cartoon character.
You've probably noticed that Puerto Madero is patrolled by the Prefectura (beige uniforms) which is a branch of the Navy I believe. They seem to be a much more professional/honest authority to be reckoned with. About twice as expensive to bribe, and you have to be at least somewhat discreet about it.
Thomaso276
04-11-06, 23:23
Prefectura is the Coast Guard. Provincial cops are very bad, PFA not as bad but all Argentines dislike them for good reason.
Of course when you pay them 800 pesos a month what do you expect!
800 pesos is the median national wage here. I suppose that police and teachers in USA also earn around the median. I believe that corruption being so ingrained in the culture here (AR cops are maybe no more corrupt than anybody else) is the main problem. I havent personally noticed a correlation between ethics and income / wealth here. Actually, it may be negative.
I think the thing that influences me the most when I hear about graft and corruption in latin american cops, is that I think of my experiences with LAPD (Los Angeles Police Department) and while I'm not saying some Buenos Aires copy holding out his hand is a good thing for some imagined wrong doing or as a way for you to get out of something you really did but shouldn't officially have to pay for, between the two polar opposites of a corrupt cop holding his hand out vs. The hyper zealot enforcing whatever decree he wants on a whim (e. G. LAPD) I'd rather take the corruption.
Thomaso276
04-13-06, 01:03
There is a whole different world between USA cops and cops in underdevloped countries. The problem with corruption in law enforcement is it shakes the foundation of society. We give these folks the right to detain and arrest. We give them the authority to take a life under less restrictive conditions than a citizen.
All Departments have bad cops, some worse than others. In USA they are in the minority. Usually they are just idiots who do not understand their job and can cause you some minor problems (like two extra tickets during a traffic stop) but then you get guys like the NYPD Detecives working for the mob for 20 years and doing wet work for them.
LAPD never impressed me, however, they received great publicity from all their friends in the TV and movie business in the 50's and 60's (Dragnet, Adam 12, etc) that portrayed them as the best, most progressive Department in USA. Historically they have had many organizational problems and their top people always seem to disappear when problems arise.
Finally, teachers or others earning median wage are not asked to respond when some 240 lb freak is beating the shit of you or when dozens of citizens decide to run wild. In BA I have heard many times that the cops do little because their pay is not worth them getting hurt or killed.
Sorry if I am going on. My advice; watch the Cris Rock video on how to not get the shit beat out of you by cops, or just be calm and pleasant. When dealing with any law enforcement you hold very few cards.
Miami Vice was my favorite cop squad. Nice cars and chicas too.
Sonny Crockett had a few run-ins with internal affairs but generally a good vice cop. His partner Ricardo Tubbs was not so impressive though - I think he's found another line of work.
I never really respected LAPD or CHP, Ponch and Jon.
First let me say that I know, like, and respect Thomaso. Second let me say that I have been (physically) abused by cops more than once (as in twice) for absolutely no reason (and also got third beating but deserved it, pretty much, but they still should leave that all to the wheels of justice) None of those cops was Thomaso, though. Third let me say that both teaching and being a cop are tough jobs, though in different ways.
Having said all that, I think that if a cop makes a salary of X, a public high school teacher should make a salary of perhaps 1.2X because the job requires more education (and that costs money and delays entry into the work force) But, a cop should have a better retirement plan and better health insurance because you can teach until you are say 65 and you can really only be a cop until you are say 55, and being a cop is more physically dangerous (or at least it was until these little 14 year old fucks started shooting up class rooms with guns they probably stole from Punter127's collection)
But, that assumes that a teacher works the same amount of hours as a cop, and they don't. Teachers get more time off. So, take that 1.2 X and multiply by a teacher getting 2/12 of the year off. 1.2 x 10/12 = 1 so pay them both the same and let god sort it all out.
I think you'll find that the 800 pesos figure for BA cops is obsolete. But their salary is still nothing to write home about.
Sconjo USA
04-13-06, 09:34
It is tough being a cop in the bad areas. My nephew was a captain in charge of the Narc Squad in the city that the FBI picked as the number one crime city in the United States. And now he is retired and can't get a permit to carry a gun, so he can protect himself from all the scum drug people he put in prison. I think it fuckin stinks.
Sconjo USA
I've never had a problem with a cop in the US or overseas either, for that matter. Of course, I've never smarted back, talked about "pigs," claimed I had a Constitutional right to smoke pot, or suggested that the policeman had better things to do than stop poor-little-innocent-me-the-taxpayer-who-pays-his-bloated-salary.
I've always been polite and answer "yes sir," "no officer," and "thank you very much." People who repeatedly get their asses beaten by cops are probably inviting the smackdown through their criminal acts, insolent statements, or just by their stupid and threatening behavior. *YAWN*
Coincidentally with the recent cop reports, the "buzzer" for my apartment buzzed this morning soon after sexo with my chica favorita. She handled the intercom and it was a cop saying somebody from my apartment had called the police. Not true, which she told him. Soon after, I escorted her downstairs to let her out. The cop was still outside, I guess trying to figure out what was going on. When he saw her he gave me the high sign.
"Relieved" dog
I was on Guido Avenida one night and I took a few pictures of Whats Up and Affairre suddenly two undercover police appeared telling me I can't take pictures. They showed me their badges and acted like I had committed a serious offence. Then I showed them my passaporte. They said Norte Americano. I said yes. They let me go. I was thinking what in the fuck did I do wrong.
I was in Recoleta Park and there were some Portenos passing a joint arround. I was tempted to ask for a hit. But my fear of the police kempt me from getting a hit or two. Dos anyone know what the laws are for getting busted for smoking pot? For foriegners? Do you just pay the police off?
Daddy Rulz
06-26-06, 23:17
But I'm betting 50 pesos in your passport gets you out of it. If your not carrying weight your not going to jail for weed. I've seen people smoking pot walking past cops.
I was in Recoleta Park and there were some Portenos passing a joint arround. I was tempted to ask for a hit. But my fear of the police kempt me from getting a hit or two. Dos anyone know what the laws are for getting busted for smoking pot? For foriegners? Do you just pay the police off?
I remember a post or two in the past with specifics about bribing the cops here. I gotta tell ya, maybe it's easy and works every time, but I know I would be one nervous fucker that first time I slipped a note to a cop. All it would take would be one usually reliable variable going haywire and you are fucked and good. I would like to hear more anecdotal evidence on this practice, and definitely if somebody has had it blow up in their face. Plus, I wouldn't smoke a joint at the corner of Ayacucho and Alvear, whereas alot of other places may be no problem. You're a "pusher" Daddy! :D
I've seen a lot of the young boludos smoking in the parks with no apparent fear of the cops, and I am told that possession of small amounts of pot carries a low penalty. I cannot get a decent definition of a small amount, though. So, I never leave my house with more than I can eat quickly. I do smoke pot in the parks but not during daylight hours.
I remember a post or two in the past with specifics about bribing the cops here. I gotta tell ya, maybe it's easy and works every time, but I know I would be one nervous fucker that first time I slipped a note to a cop. All it would take would be one usually reliable variable going haywire and you are fucked and good. I would like to hear more anecdotal evidence on this practice, and definitely if somebody has had it blow up in their face. You may be nervous the first time but you get a feel for it very quickly. Bribing is normal in most "developing" countries and is very simple. I wouldn't be too concerned about encountering an honest BA cop. Actually, I have difficulty fathoming one.
Remember how you felt on your first trip outside of the USA when you arrived to the red light district in Amsterdam? You initially felt uncomfortable there because you had never been in such an environment and weren't sure how to act. But within 2 hours you were a seasoned pro.
Interesting to note that while Alfonsin was President, the Supreme Court ruled the possession of small amounts of narcotics (any narcotics, apparently) to be legal, under the principle that the possessor was not harming anyone but possibly himself. This wasn't a terribly popular decision at the time (1987 or so, about the same time divorce was legalized in the Sejean case) and it was reversed by the packed court under Menem.
Well, marijuana is certainly not a narcotic so I don't know WTF that has to do with anything. Here's an interesting link:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/LIBRARY/southam1.htm
In my personal experience, marijuana is smoked particularly openly in Uruguay. Note also that one can possess a healthy 20 grams of pot in Colombia, perfectly legally. 20 grams of Colombian weed is like 20,000 grams of the shit they have down here.
As most of us know, Argentina and many other Latin/other countries have a civil law system as opposed to a common law system used in English speaking countries (state of Louisiana excluded). Civil law is sometimes called Napoleonic, Latin, Roman, or Continental law.
What is the difference? My basic understanding is that the common law system places more emphasis on precedent cases and that the civil law system places more emphasis on the code. But that's not necessarily what I have personally seen. I've seen legal actions in Argentina that heavily quoted precedent cases in addition to listing the code and my assumption is that in USA, for instance, someone must break a codified law somehow to have a legal issue even though precedent may be very important.
Thanks in advance for the clarification.
Interesting case in Colorado right now involving "common law" in the absence of a contrary statute. Facts, as I understand them, flow as follows:
36 year old dirtbag, henceforth referred to as DB, knocks up 12 year old whatever, henceforth referred to as victim. CO, like most states, has a minimum age for marriage. Don't know what it is but let's say it is 16. But, it also has a common law marriage provision whose requirements involve holding ones' selves out as being married, not denying being husband and wife, and, importantly, living together.
Turns out DB is biologically unrelated to the girl, and to her mother, but is like the uncle of the boyfriend of the mother's aunt's cat or some shit and has been living in the same household. Mother of victim is a crack head, and DB has served time in prison for guess what CRACK. Anyway 12 year old victim gets impregnated with DB's vermin jizz. For some unknown reason like maybe he was supplying her with I don't know maybe CRACK, the victim's mom gives her permission to enter into a common law marriage with this DB and they file papers to this effect with the county clerk in Redneck County, CO.
But then DB kicks victim's mom out of the apartment "for smoking crack" and mom turns him in to Social Services. Currently he is in prison AGAIN for "stalking" his victim who is also his wife? Anyway gutless judge looks at the letter of the law and decides that the civil statute giving the minimum marriage age is overriden by common law in the absence of a specific statute to the contrary, and common law gives no minimum marriage age, and historically in medevial England this age was 12.
So, the marriage is apparently legal but the DB is still in prison. He now wants to be released to "take care of his family responsibilities." He also says that "some people are ready for sex at age 12." The CO legislature is now rushing to craft a law to prevent future recurrences of this travesty but even if this cretinous low-life's sentence for stalking isn't overturned, he will be out pretty soon, at which point he can go live with his "wife" who is now 14 and he is now 38.
Some sick shit right there.
This is all pretty much common place white trash stuff unless DB is fucking the cat also. And, by god, I'm going looking for a cop to bribe this afternoon! Just role play since I ain't done nothing bad.
Well, let's put it this way: I haven't seen the victim, but the DB ain't white trash if you get my drift.
Surprising. Had all the hallmarks of a trailer trash story, though the prevalence of crack instead of meth and hard licker might have been a giveaway. Plus, that common law business is usually a whitey thang. Exceptions are the rule though, eh?
Stan Da Man
11-26-08, 20:38
I thought I'd post this in case others have had similar experiences, or in the event that this happens to others in the future.
I was in Buenos Aires two weeks ago. I went with two business colleagues, and we rented a very nice house in Palermo Hollywood on Costa Rica about half a block from Dorrego.
The first night we were in town, we were all relatively anxious to have a good time, and I have chronicled some of those events elsewhere on this board. Eventually, we went to Black. While there, my two amigos ran into two old hook-ups and decided to renew acquaintances. I didn't find anything I was looking for, so they left for the casa with companionship, and I went to Madaho's.
I hadn't planned on taking anything home but ultimately couldn't resist and took home a sweet young thing with a Playboy bunny fixation. I left about 3:45 am or so, and I had traded texts with my amigos before I left Madaho's. They had finished with round 1 and were headed my way, while I was headed their way. They were just waiting for a cab and, if you know anything about this particular stretch of Palermo, there are few cabs there at that time of the night.
I arrived back at the casa around 4:00 am and saw that there were two police cars with their lights blinking (no sirens) and apparently some commotion at the corner of Dorrego and Costa Rica. I was somewhat inebriated at that point, so I didn't pay much attention to it, other than to note that our neighborhood appeared to be a bit more dangerous than I had thought in the cold light of the day. I also noticed that the door to our casa was wide open, which I thought was either a bad sign or an indication that my friends were just leaving.
I got out of the cab with my new amiga de la noche and was immediately approached by a police officer. He asked "es usted Norte Americano." I said "yes," and he asked me to come with him. I was a bit reluctant, but he was equally insistent. I followed him. My first thought is that the chicas we had kicked out earlier in the day (see separate report under Cafe Orleans) had a police officer who was an uncle and I was in for it. My sphincter began to tighten. Thankfully, that turned out not to be the case.
We got near the corner where the commotion was and he asked "tiene amigos Norte Americanos?" I said "si," and then we got close enough where my drunken eyes could discern that it was my amigos who were being detained. There were about six local (not federal) police officers there and two police cars.
They asked whether these were my friends. My Spanish is okay, but not great, so it took a few tries for me to understand. I finally said "yes," somewhat reluctantly since I wasn't sure if this meant that they would be released or if I would be arrested as some sort of accomplice. The police officers talked amongst themselves again and then asked me a few questions I didn't understand. They finally said, "Quien es la chica?" I understood that, and told them "mi amiga." They all laughed. One of them then said that we need to be careful of the women because they are all thieves. I said thanks. Then, they talked among themselves again for a few seconds and turned to one of the officers and, apparently, told him that my friends could go.
We all then traipsed quickly back to our casa. I paid the cab driver. The bunny fixated chica asked if everything was okay, and I said 'si, no problema,' but she seemed unpersuaded. We went into our casa, shut and locked the door.
Of course, my first question was "what the hell happened?" Turns out, it wasn't much of anything put perhaps someone on the board can shed some further light on things.
My friends had left the house about 3:30 pm. One of them wanted cigarettes, and there are no kioscos nearby. He walked down Dorrega toward Cordoba about two blocks. There is a nightclub there, and across the street is posted a police officer. My take on these guys is that they are sort of a "neighborhood watch" patrol for neighborhoods that are starting to regentrify. I've seen them in Las Canitas and Palermo Soho, as well. At any rate, my friend went into the bar and, with his non-existent Spanish, he asked if they sold cigarettes. There were two or three locals there and, eventually, he made his intention clear and they sold him a pack of Marloboros for the equivalent of 10 pesos or so. The bar was rocking, but virtually empty downstairs. Upstairs, however, the place was shaking. He noticed, as well, that there was a line of folks outside the place queued up for taxis. The only strange thing was that they were all paired up, and they were all chicas. His surmise was that it is a lesbian bar. We later confirmed that this is true, although we were told that they don't discriminate -- both gay men and women are welcome.
Having purchased his cigarettes, he walked back to the corner of Costa Rica and Dorrego where he met the other amigo, who was still waiting for a cab. While they were standing there hoping that a cab would happen by, the police officer from across the street from the gay bar approached and started yelling at them. Again, my friends do not speak any Spanish, so they just kept saying "sorry, no hablo espanol." (They learned a bit from me.
They didn't understand what he was saying, but they later said it was something like "no camisas en la calle." I think it probably was something like "no caminando en la calle." I asked them whether they were walking in the street and they said "no, we were just standing on the street corner waiting for a cab." There is very little traffic at that time of the night.
At any rate, whatever they did or didn't understand caused this police officer to order them up against the wall. He frisked both of them and kept hitting their legs with his nightstick. He didn't hit them hard or beat them -- just enough to let them know who's boss. He pulled out and inspected both their passports and repeatedly ordered them not to turn around. He reached into both their pants pockets. They thought he was going to steal all of their pesos or plant something on them as a pretext for an arrest, but he did neither.
After 15 minutes like that, he got on his cell phone. Apparently, the Buenos Aires local police do not carry police radios. Our conclusion is that he called for back-up with his cell phone, because two police cars arrived ten minutes later with five other police officers. They talked for a while and agreed that my colleagues no longer had to remain with their hands against the wall and their feet apart. At ease. One was clearly in charge, and he asked to look at their passports. None of them spoke English or, at least, none of them were talking English to my colleagues.
About 5 minutes after that, I pulled up in a cab, and you know the rest of the story.
We haven't quite been able to piece together what happened. Leading theories include:
A. This cop thought they were gay since one had, unwittingly, gone into the gay bar to buy cigarettes and then walked two blocks where he met up with another guy and hung out on a street corner waiting for a cab. He was telling them not to stray into the neighborhood and that they were welcome, if at all, only right next to the gay bar. Perhaps they were finally convinced that my amigos weren't gay when I pulled up with a chica?
B. The cop was simply giving a couple of tourists a hard time. (This doesn't seem to make much sense since it doesn't seem probable that you would call for back-up if you just wanted to roust a couple of foreigners.
C. The cop just wanted to let them know that it was his turf and being out and about at 4:00 in the morning was not a welcome idea. Mind your Ps and Qs. (Again, this doesn't seem to make much sense because you wouldn't need back-up to get this point across.
D. The cop was looking for a bribe. Again, the counter to this is that he didn't take any of their pesos.
At the end of the day, nothing bad happened. The cops detained them for about 20-25 minutes and eventually let them go, but we haven't really figured out what it was all about. I doubt I said anything to free them since my Spanish isn't particularly good. One might suggest that my amigos MUST have done something else, but they're pretty straight shooters. All they wanted to do at that time of the night was get back to Madaho's before they turned the house lights up.
Can anyone make sense of this? If you've read my other report on Orleans earlier in the day, you'll understand that this was a rather eventful first 24 hours in BA. Perhaps it was just bad Kharma, although the kharma improved soon thereafter with the help of the bunny.
Stan,
I think your first guess is the best one. Your buddies look like faggots.;)
Stan de Man.
First, it is mandatory that police cars have flashing lights. They are not allowed to turn them off. Something to do with abuses of the last military dictatorship.
Secondly, we employed a high ranking police officer after he retired. The individusl police officers do not stink. They want to protect citizens from crime.
The system stinks. Police officers are powerless. It is a consequence of the abuses of the last military dictatorship.
My take is that the police in this case were involved in something more. Perhaps investigating drug use and you unfortuneately were in the middle of it.
This is the Argentina we know and love. It is a mess.
Stan,
If this were Brazil, I would not be surprised at this story, it would be a shakedown, or at least a statement of who's in charge. Since this happened in BA, I think there must have been some misunderstanding, perhaps as EA suggests or else your option A. And it may have been greatly exacerbated by the language issue.
You certainly did have an eventful first 24 hours. Unusually so.
Stan Da Man
11-28-08, 17:11
It was a weird first 24-hours, and I've only told two of the stories. There's one more. I don't know where to post it, and it's not all that noteworthy -- just weird. I'll post it in the critic-free section since it doesn't seem to fit anywhere else.
I agree that the BA cops don't seem to be that bad. While they detained my friends for some time, they didn't do anything improper, and they neither asked for any bribes nor took any money (my friends each had about 500 pesos on them) Seems like the consensus is accurate -- the cops either thought they were homos or they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I'm voting for homos because I can haze these two more if that's the case.
Stan,
If this were Brazil, I would not be surprised at this story, it would be a shakedown, or at least a statement of who's in charge. Since this happened in BA, I think there must have been some misunderstanding, perhaps as EA suggests or else your option A. And it may have been greatly exacerbated by the language issue.
You certainly did have an eventful first 24 hours. Unusually so.
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