View Full Version : Argentine Real Estate
Norman Stormin
06-27-06, 14:22
In the last two years, at least for gringos from Los Angeles. It appears that the international housing inflation crisis has its epicenter in L. A. And Orange counties.
Today I attended the "Invest Show 2006" at the Sheraton Hotel & Convention Center in Porta Madreo, $20 peso's admission.
About half the booths were selling investment real estate in Buenos Aires, with promise's to rent it out for you after you bought them for all cash. You could buy anything from one apartment to a whole building under construction. Another quarter were selling Condo's in Miami, even one scam selling Condo's in Las Vegas of all places. The best price I could find was $900 dollars per meter for new construction here in B. A.
But I didn't go there to invest. I went for the Chica's, it was sorta like hanging out at the "Duty Free Shop" at the airport without the pressure of waiting for an airplane that's going to kick your ass all night long.
I'm going back tomorrow.
Exon
AllIWantIsLove
09-14-06, 02:00
Title: WSJ. Com - Argentina's Real-Estate Boom Shows No Signs of Slowing Down.
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I came across this brief report by the Center of Advanced Studies of Universidad Argentina de la Empresa. Some real estate data is presented, but there are some big hiccups in some of the monthly trends. Building permits and property/rent values have consistently increased year over year but the supply figures don't jive.
Thomaso276
09-18-06, 01:12
The real estate market is driven by foreigners who purchase property here. Tourism is the number one business in the country. Many people see prices as a real baragin compared to the prices in their own countries. Which is true. Compare an apartment price here with one in London or Madrid or Paris.
When there is a downturn in the economies of USA and Europe, Argentina will suffer more. I can imagine thousands of vacant places with no buyers. Geez, I see thousands of "for sale" signs now.
Kirchner is in NY asking the big companies to invest here. They are pointing out the lack of utillity rate increases, the bond default, certain affilliations with leftist presidents and a pending energy crisis. I don't imagine there will be a postive reply. The nature of the beast here is just too inconsistent.
I know it's grown, but is tourism is the number one business in the country?
Prices in London are outrageous, they make New York seem cheap. But prices in many parts of the continent, Paris, Rome, and Madrid included, were amazingly low last time I checked. Not so hard to find decent apartments there for <US$200k.
It does seem, however, that many Argentina figures are skewed by the most expensive developments where foreigners are buying. In a recent article, the developer (Puerto Madero) said that 50% of his sales were to foreigners and some prices were US$280/ m2. That prices out about 97% of the locals and the vast majority of Americans.
What are the tax structures like for buying property, can a foreigner own property in Argentina?
Would buying property there be worth the occasional visit and to hold onto?
Anything Like IN LA or Vegas where they have "nice touristy areas" Beach Property etc?
DH,
Neither of those links work! And all of that sounds great (currently my tongue is in my cheek)
Lunico
Thomaso276
11-03-06, 23:30
Front page article today in the Clarin that AFIP is proposing a law to eliminate cash only real eastate transactions sometime in 2007. Gov't is concerned about laundering money, underreporting tax liability and proposes that transactions be completed with checks, bank transfers or credit cards (I'd like to put a 150g charge on my Visa please, 6 pagos sin interest)
Real estate sector is up in arms claiming it will lead to a recession (good for the dollar I guess) I agree that closings should be more professional - dumping stacks of hundreds on a desk is third-worldish. My concerns would be the banking system is so shitty. I guess you would be handing over a certified check from your home country and let the seller figure out what to do with it.
After having gone through a cash transaction, I now find myself worrying that the gov'ts attempt to clean up this system and implement modern finacial procedures may screw it up more. The lack of title insurance and confidence in financial institutions makes me wonder how it will all work out because sellers here want cash in their pockets when they hand over the deed. I cannot imagine them giving you a deed for a cashier check or trying to coordinate the bank transfer so that both parties are secure.
Imagine you initiate a transfer and set the closing for a week later when the money will be in the sellers account. Come closing time no one else shows up, claiming some bullshit fraud on your part and their right to keep your money or simply disappearing. Try and get money back in this system!
Kudos to the government.
Those of us old enough to remember the 2001-2002 devaluation and corralito remember that a business crisis was predicted due to the new cash restrictions.
Entities that wished to continue business slit their wrists but then did the unthinkable in order to survive. They began accepting checks, transfers, and credit cards and eventually realized it wasn't so bad after all.
The lack of title insurance and confidence in financial institutions makes me wonder how it will all work out because sellers here want cash in their pockets when they hand over the deed. I cannot imagine them giving you a deed for a cashier check or trying to coordinate the bank transfer so that both parties are secure.What's needed is a trusted escrow agent. In the U. S. typically it would be a lawyer or title company. In Argentina, presumably the escribanos or casas de cambio will offer escrow services.
Are checks (ordinary or certified) used at all in Argentina?
Thomaso276
11-05-06, 01:29
Checks are used for business transactions (don't know about real estate) but foreigners cannot open checking accounts. I believe you can have a savings account with a CDI which is easy to get.
Don't know about certified checks, if they even have them.
You hit it right on using the word "trusted". No one here trusts anyone else and for good reason. They do not trust the gov't or banks most of all. Hell, I don't trust myself sometimes!
Yes they have certified checks here, but they still are NOT used for property purchasing. I sold my car a year ago and the guy gave me a certified check. What it means is their bank puts aside the amount of the check and takes responsibility for the amount of the check. All with Bank Boston. But I wouldn't do a real estate transaction using certified checks. No way. Just cash OR in some cases if the sellers and buyers, by coincidence use the same financial institution both parties can get on the phone and do a wire transfer getting the confirmation while ON THE PHONE that it was realized. The typical way is CASH on the table! My people deliver direct to the office where signing is taking place. This way we don't walk around with $$$
The official at my bank tells me that a person MUST reside here in Argentina AND have some utility in their name. AND must have the account for 6 months in good standing BEFORE you can do a transfer. THEN they give you about 4 pages of "red tape", (tramites) to fill out in order to get your wired money. It's a pain in the ass!
In Puerto Madero there are hundreds, maybe thousands of new apartments going up and they aren't selling. The real estate offices around here are empty. If you haven't noticed, apartment prices have stagnated even while thousands of new places are coming online. Bubble: everybody wants to becomes an architect, everybody is an investor in real estate, new buildings are everywhere, those apartments on the market aren't moving and everybody talks about housing and wants to own an apartment that can be rented to foreigners. Anybody who doesn't think we're in a bubble is in deep, deep denial.
In Puerto Madero there are hundreds, maybe thousands of new apartments going up and they aren't selling. The real estate offices around here are empty. If you haven't noticed, apartment prices have stagnated even while thousands of new places are coming online. Bubble: everybody wants to becomes an architect, everybody is an investor in real estate, new buildings are everywhere, those apartments on the market aren't moving and everybody talks about housing and wants to own an apartment that can be rented to foreigners. Anybody who doesn't think we're in a bubble is in deep, deep denial.The real answer is no one is buying and take a look to the Palermo Hollywood Towers, no one is working anymore in there. Marketshare in BA in my experience over-reacts to any small thing. I can't tell you if Puerto Madero is a bubble or not a bubble, but I can tell you that I have made a very good deal in Puerto Madero. Of course, the key is to risk. Some of the fellas I speak to, they want to make a lot of money, without risking, without working and in a super-safe environment. All right, the reality it's sometimes you'll make it, and some times you'll not. I have sold a pre-con in Puerto Madero and almost duplicated the capital in less than 2 years. Of course, those 2 years sweating like a horse, but, anyway, the key is to work and research a lot, and buy cheap, like gipsies does, yes I learned from gipsies buying cheap and selling expensive if possible, but, if not possible, you can get out of it without deep wounds.
What's better than Puerto Madero? San Telmo stills cheap, and if the city gov makes a few changes San Telmo and part of Barracas it's going to be Puerto Madero's extension.
MCSE's free R. E. Consultant advise.
What's better than Puerto Madero? San Telmo stills cheap, and if the city gov makes a few changes San Telmo and part of Barracas it's going to be Puerto Madero's extension. MCSE's free R. E. Consultant advise.Doubling your money over a couple years ago is great, but 2008 is not 2006 and certainly not 2004. A "good deal" in PM I saw was 90m sq for about $300k and most places are a lot more. Will that be worth $450k or $600k in a couple years? That's more than almost any city in the US and prices there are going in the other direction. There's still more downside risk than upside opportunity. Prices are already as high as many European cities. You can get a downtown Miami condo nearly identical to a Puerto Madero one for less money (though condo fees are higher in Miami) While opportunities may exist, there are opportunities in other places too and tying up hundreds of thousand of CASH equity is insane at this point. I locked in a decent rental price for a couple of years and am going to ride this thing out. There's more upside in the markets now than in BA real estate and it's a hell of a lot more liquid.
I do think there are some good oportunities in San Telmo or Barracas (new appartments! But it just will never be Puerto Madero.
It's old, shitty, dark, dirthy, it stinks, it's full of cartoneros and it's not safe.I've spent alot of time in San Telmo and it is as safe, or more safe than many other areas. Lotta dogshit-yes. I've seen more cartoneros in Congreso. A little dirty-yes. Who gives a fuck. I ain't sleeping in the street. As for dark, the streets are lit. The ongoing idea with some that San Telmo is more dangerous than most barrios is absolute bullshit. I've seen more snatch and grabs in Centro, Recoleta and Palermo. I've been harassed by more beggars, panhandlers and generic scumbags in Centro and Congreso by far. It is not the perfect area in which to live, but that has more to do with lack of decent grocery stores (though a nice place opened recently on Independencia between Defensa and Bolivar) and the fact that it can be loud unless you search and find a place a little off the beaten path.
And yes, it will never be Puerto Madero. That is a good thing.
I have been looking at the economics associated with buying vs selling. I am now in a "special" apt in a prime recoleta neighborhood (right next to Las Heras why Pueyrredon) Other side pueyrredon than Madaho. These digs are a penthouse (13th floor) with a skyline view and slight view of "Rio de Plata."
Rent: U$D1100 per month.
Market Value - $400K (I have been doing my homework)
If US buyer buys at $400K
Rental cost per annum $15,000 (conservative estimate - account seasonality)
US Cost of capital (say 6%) [cost of money in us - borrow rate]
400,000 * 6% = $24K US.
Rent is still a bargain and purchase price too high.
My humble opinion.
Jaggar
But you need to add a much higher percentage for AR country risk, vacancy, taxes, and repairs. Personally, I woudn't buy it unless I netted 15-20%! Don't dismiss that we are in the midst or a severe decline in world real estate prices. Forget the ''giddy''days of the last several years.
This makes sense and if we use a 15% hurdle rate, a property that sells for $400K would have to yield $60K in annualized rental revenue (or a whopping $5K per month) What can you rent in B. Aires for 15,000 pesos per mes?
Thoughts well appreciated supporting purchasing (Tu compras) property in be. Aires. Even a $80K place in San Telmo.
Jaggar
Greetings,
Considering the seeming inevitability of the nex AR economical crisis, what are forum readers views and experience regarding the possible decline of real estate values then? Particularly I am interested in attractive land, like northern Pagagonia, and such.
Many thanks!
In many countries owning property is a sound investment. Usually the property appreciates and there are well defined laws which protect your investment.
Argentina is not one of those countries. By and large, if it flies, floats, fucks or is located in Argentina rent it, don't buy it.
It is incredible but true. If you own property in Argentina and somehow homeless people are able to break into that property (house in Buenos Aires or a farm in Patagonia) it will take the courts several years to evict the squatters. By that time you will be, lucky to have anything that resembles the property you once owned.
If you ask Argentineans why they have no respect for property rights they will look at you in a puzzled manner as if to say "Isn't it this way everywhere?"
Argentina is the country that time forgot. Argentina has peculiar ideas and concepts similar to an island inhabited by dinosaurs.
I
Recognize squatters' rights, but have methods to more quickly determine whether the title holder has lost thier rights to the property or still maintains title to the property. The difference is that it takes 5 to 7 years to resolve this type of situation in Argentina. In Florida you might need 6 months to one year.
Assuming both sides have competent attorneys.
This court system and sqatter's rights are the real reasons why there are not mortgages widely available in Argentina. Mexico and Brazil changed their laws over the last few years and magically a broad based mortgage industry was born in both countries.
What's the deal with building permits?
If you own a plot of land, what's the situation with building on it?
Assume you can:
A) Buy a plot of land.
Be) Hire a builder to erect a house on it without seeking permission first.
C) Hire a decent layer.
Does that mean that, because legal decisions are generally delayed by 5 to 7 years in Argentina, a person can build a house without permission, and live in it for 5 years?
Presumably after 5 years you might get a demolition order but hey, you got to live there for 5 years!
I wasn't able to find anything about this with my ability to search the forum for it.
I am a US citizen. I don't have resident status in Argentina. I stay there 6 to 7 months per year.
I own 2 places in Bs As and want to sell one.
My accountant in Bs As has told me that the AFIP requires a "certificado de residencia en el exterior" to sell property and without this certificate, I can't sell it.
I have to get this certificate from, in my case, the Argentine consulate in Los Angeles.
I don't own or rent anything in the USA. I stay with friends the 2 to 3 months of the year I am there. I use their address for my USA mailing address. I don't receive any bills, or anything else at this address, that the consulate will accept as proof of residence and so they won't give me a certificate. The person I talked to at the consulate also told me that I don't need this certificate to sell property.
I don't know whether my accountant, or the guy at the consulate is mistaken, so I don't know what to do next. The accountant insists that I must have this certificate.
Any non Argentine resident who has sold property there have any ideas?
Thanks
Airplane,
I sold my first property here in October 2006, and maybe things have changed, but then it was pretty straightforward. No requirements for proof of residency abroad, but I had to go to the AFIP to get a declaration that I owed no taxes, and because I'd stated I was divorced, had to get an official statement of this from my home country. That was pretty complicated as it was 20 plus years ago. Had to go through the "Apostille procedure" and get an official translation. But proof of foreign residency, no.
All because of bureaucratic problems. Finally, he gave up in disgust! In the future, expect more problems and a more confiscatory modus operandi! DO NOT BUY IN AR!What about if someone just wanted to own a *home and not care about having it as an investment. Would you still buy?
Example: A young guy like me (40) has a few pennies but not many. He goes to south america all the time and leaves his apartment empty in NYC.
Maybe he gets the backing to purchase an apt in BA of up to roughly 100k. He can then be assured he owns a home. He lives in BA (half way to civilization) and takes month long trips to lima colombia or some other budget location. He rents out the apartment (maybe) when he is gone.
Is this guy (me!) losing anything in your humble opinion?
There has to be some benefit to owning even if it's in argentina. Right?
What about if someone just wanted to own a *home and not care about having it as an investment. Would you still buy?
Example: A young guy like me (40) has a few pennies but not many. He goes to South America all the time and leaves his apartment empty in NYC.
Maybe he gets the backing to purchase an apt in BA of up to roughly 100k. He can then be assured he owns a home. He lives in BA (half way to civilization) and takes month long trips to lima colombia or some other budget location. He rents out the apartment (maybe) when he is gone.
Is this guy (me! Losing anything in your humble opinion?
There has to be some benefit to owning even if it's in Argentina. Right?Yea You're "Nuts" or have more money than brains, rent the Apartment on a long term basis, two years or more.
There's another "Crisis" coming and Argentine real estate will go in the tank.
Exon
Punter 127
08-02-09, 18:15
There's another "Crisis" coming and Argentine real estate will go in the tank.
ExonOops for a moment I thought I was on the U. S. Economy thread.
Yea Your "Nuts" or have more money than brains, rent the Apartment on a long term basis, two years or more.
There's another "Crisis" coming and Argentine real estate will go in the tank.
ExonBut isn't "crisis" a good thing on my end? As I stated I would be buying a home not an investment. Some might say a home is an investment but I look at it more as shelter.
I just can't get over the amount of money I've spent on rent in NYC. I could have owned buy now. That is where my "nuts".*more "BRAINS" than money attitude comes in. I haven't been able to consider moving until very recently.
The problem I am running into with renting in foreign countries is visas and all that crap. I know you can dodge the officals for awhile but eventually it will catch up with you. I want to be legit in SA. I don't want to be scurrying around to find someone to rent me an apt under the radar. The reason my trips have been so sucessful are that I plan and organize well. Also my papers are in tact. I want to move freely without any worries of having to bribe officials to get in and out of countries etc.
I am not a huge fan of Argentina although I like it there. I am just thinking it might be a good place to use as a base camp in SA. Lima is great but winter sucks. Medellin has great pfp but I would slit my wrists out of boredom. Brazil is too expensive. I've gone down the line with all the SA countires. Where there is pussy there isn't decent food or the other way around. There are many ways to spoil the fun.
I would love to spend time in all those places but not own or be tied down with a visa. Why? It gets old really fast. But I would have "shelter" in BA and some of the ammenities I am used to. Even living in BA you guys lack stuff. Heinz Ketchup anybody?
Would owning in Colombia or Peru be any safer? I am not in the real estate business but I wouldn't think so. Brazil would be great but I don't have a brazil budget.
Also I must say that budget monegring in BA price wise is on par with most SA budget locations minus the $6 desperation fucks of Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador. Medellin would be a step up but there has been times the peso was NOT in my favor and was only a few dollars less than a BA budget fuck.
I don't have alot of experience with these types of situations BUT I am learning.
Maybe you don't understand my situation.
I'd love to hear more opinions.
Thanks.
Artisttyp
Rent, don't buy in AR. We have recommended this for years! My landlord, a minor speculator, owns 4 very nice apartments. Only mine is rented. The same is true all winter. Anyway, I'm leaving asap, for 3 months or permanently!Where would you move to and why are you moving? This would tell us alot more.
Are you guys miserable in BA? What do you guys see outside of BA that is making you think "get out"?
If a crisis happened again wouldn't you guys be living large?
I'd love to hear more opinions I experienced a very sobering moment about the politics / economics of Argentina. My sweetheart showed me a shoe-box full of $1,000.000.00 peso notes that are completely worthless. They were her Grandmother's life savings. Within her lifetime, everything, and I mean everything was gone. Just the thought that it could and probably will happen again dampened any thoughts of me purchasing any hard assets in Argentine. I enjoy the heck out of Buenos Aires, but no thank-you. A Gringo would be very low on the food chain in my view when they try to sort things out. For me, the risk is greater than the reward at this time. Maybe in the aftermath, but like many, there is a storm a brewin. Do hope I am wrong in my assessment.
I experienced a very sobering moment about the politics / economics of Argentina. My sweetheart showed me a shoe-box full of $1,000.000.00 peso notes that are completely worthless. They were her Grandmother's life savings. Within her lifetime, everything, and I mean everything was gone. Just the thought that it could and probably will happen again dampened any thoughts of me purchasing any hard assets in Argentine. I enjoy the heck out of Buenos Aires, but no thank-you. A Gringo would be very low on the food chain in my view when they try to sort things out. For me, the risk is greater than the reward at this time. Maybe in the aftermath, but like many, there is a storm a brewin. Do hope I am wrong in my assessment.What you say makes sense.
Joe Hernandez
08-03-09, 12:08
But isn't "crisis" a good thing on my end? As I stated I would be buying a home not an investment. Some might say a home is an investment but I look at it more as shelter.
I just can't get over the amount of money I've spent on rent in NYC. I could have owned buy now. That is where my "nuts".*more "BRAINS" than money attitude comes in. I haven't been able to consider moving until very recently.
The problem I am running into with renting in foreign countries is visas and all that crap. I know you can dodge the officals for awhile but eventually it will catch up with you. I want to be legit in SA. I don't want to be scurrying around to find someone to rent me an apt under the radar. The reason my trips have been so sucessful are that I plan and organize well. Also my papers are in tact. I want to move freely without any worries of having to bribe officials to get in and out of countries etc.
I am not a huge fan of Argentina although I like it there. I am just thinking it might be a good place to use as a base camp in SA. Lima is great but winter sucks. Medellin has great pfp but I would slit my wrists out of boredom. Brazil is too expensive. I've gone down the line with all the SA countires. Where there is pussy there isn't decent food or the other way around. There are many ways to spoil the fun.
I would love to spend time in all those places but not own or be tied down with a visa. Why? It gets old really fast. But I would have "shelter" in BA and some of the ammenities I am used to. Even living in BA you guys lack stuff. Heinz Ketchup anybody?
Would owning in Colombia or Peru be any safer? I am not in the real estate business but I wouldn't think so. Brazil would be great but I don't have a brazil budget.
Also I must say that budget monegring in BA price wise is on par with most SA budget locations minus the $6 desperation fucks of Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador. Medellin would be a step up but there has been times the peso was NOT in my favor and was only a few dollars less than a BA budget fuck.
I don't have alot of experience with these types of situations BUT I am learning.
Maybe you don't understand my situation.
I'd love to hear more opinions.
Thanks.
ArtisttypI don't know about your budget but if you can spend atleast 2000 dollar a month I would just rent short term (1-3-6 months) and move to different places.
In BA it should be something like:
800 dollar appartment.
800 dollar a month to spend (100 peso a day)
500 dollar a month for chicas?
If you have around 2000-2500 dollar available you could have a pretty decent life. I would think it's about the same in Lima, Santa Cruz (nice place, but I don't know if it's nice for Chicas) Bogota, Montevideo or the north of Chile (Really nice from Nov. Untill April)
Joe Hernandez
08-03-09, 12:16
A thing that you have to consider is that cost in BA to own a property keep on raising. The porteros get another 30% and next year I think around 20%. People are expecting that expenses will increase around 50% and another big raise in 2010. Gas, water, electricity also keep on raising.
I would think that owning a big place (3 bedroom, at least 80 meter) is as expensive as renting a studio in Recoleta for about 8 months a year.
A PH in lets say Belgrano or Nunez might be an option because you have no or little expensas but you are not imuun for price raises in the utilities and taxes. You would also need to pay for repairs some day and that is hard to calculate.
I personally would not live in a PH or home in BA due to security reasons but that can be different for somebody else.
I also think that rents (also for long-term expats) have to go down, expenses go up and foreigners (both short and long term) are leaving. There is no way, even in Argentina, that those prices can be maintained
The only renters that don't pay utilities are typically the temporary apartment rentals. And they charge much more for temporary rentals than normal contracts, so it will be possible for them to offset their costs by raising rates a bit and eating a bit of the cost both. The net earnings will shrink somewhat, but most of these people are not necessarily using their apartments as their sole source of income.
Everyone who rents on long term contracts (which is the vast percentage of renters) pays their own utilities.
Spassmusssein
08-08-09, 18:26
I love it, not having other sharks in my little sea, Buenos Aires.
You CAN buy here, but you should be professional and smart.
The plebs should stay, renting.
Suerte
Joe Hernandez
08-08-09, 21:50
The only renters that don't pay utilities are typically the temporary apartment rentals. And they charge much more for temporary rentals than normal contracts, so it will be possible for them to offset their costs by raising rates a bit and eating a bit of the cost both. The net earnings will shrink somewhat, but most of these people are not necessarily using their apartments as their sole source of income.
Everyone who rents on long term contracts (which is the vast percentage of renters) pays their own utilities.If the expenses and stuff are getting more expensive the rents also have to come down. Let's say you are Argentine and you earn 6000 peso a month with your wife. You want to spend around 30-35% of your income on housing and your expenses go from 250 peso to 500 peso a month your rent has to go down with approx. The same amount. You can only afford to pay amount if your income increases, which might well not happen in 2009 and 2010
The main reason why it is not a huge concern for most Argentines is because they have properities because:
1) Money laundering.
2) Security. No cash at home, but in bricks.
3) Investment. There will never a corralito on houseprices.
4) No confidence in banks.
5) Security against inflation
I don't know about your budget but if you can spend atleast 2000 dollar a month I would just rent short term (1-3-6 months) and move to different places.
In BA it should be something like:
800 dollar appartment.
800 dollar a month to spend (100 peso a day)
500 dollar a month for chicas?
If you have around 2000-2500 dollar available you could have a pretty decent life. I would think it's about the same in Lima, Santa Cruz (nice place, but I don't know if it's nice for Chicas) Bogota, Montevideo or the north of Chile (Really nice from Nov. Untill April)I live in the midwest. My mortgage is almost paid off. My duplex renter pays 90% of my rent. My car is paid, gas minimal, so basically I can live for less than the above number and still have unlimited opportunity to make a buck. Agreed lifestyle, food, and the chicas being removed from the equation make it not really apples to apples. Point being when I started traveling there in 2003 it was 70% less than it was here. Now things are very close to equal. Seems out of fit to me. I heard electricity and utilities cable all spiked. How can the Argies keep up with this? It seems they are getting battered.
Joe Hernandez
08-09-09, 13:18
I live in the midwest. My mortgage is almost paid off. My duplex renter pays 90% of my rent. My car is paid, gas minimal, so basically I can live for less than the above number and still have unlimited opportunity to make a buck. Agreed lifestyle, food, and the chicas being removed from the equation make it not really apples to apples. Point being when I started traveling there in 2003 it was 70% less than it was here. Now things are very close to equal. Seems out of fit to me. I heard electricity and utilities cable all spiked. How can the Argies keep up with this? It seems they are getting battered.I spended 2 weeks in PA, MI, NY, OH travelling in June and I consider the cost of the items I buy about the same as in BA. Only public transport is still dirt cheap in BA
These are excellent cases presented thus far and I applaude each contributor. As it stands today, we are enjoying what is basically a 4:1 $AR /$USD swap rate. Should this change, I am sure that many of us here might look elsewhere.
I am currently in a short term place in Palermo Hollywood that sells today for $100K USD. I am renting it for $1000USD... for a single month. Granted this is still low season through September but it is also only a single month rental. If I were to pull money from US, at an easily justifiable and conservative 6% cost, this apartment would run me roughly $500US/mo or roughly half what I am now paying.
Yes, one could continue to rent and throw good money down the argentenian drains. Or purchase. Now which is best?
Please feel free to weigh in on what is an issue yet to be resolved in my mind.
Suerte.
Jaggar
This conversation has been held many times on this forum.
Your far better off with a long term lease, two years or so.
If you must buy wait until the next crisis which is not far off.
Then your $100,000 USD apartment might be selling for $50,000
Exon
Rent, don't buy in AR. We have recommended this for years! My landlord, a minor speculator, owns 4 very nice apartments. Only mine is rented. The same is true all winter. Anyway, I'm leaving ASAP, for 3 months or permanently!What Exon and Sidney say is 100% correct. In Argentina, rent, don't buy.
As one who owns several buildings in Buenos Aires I can tell you that, if I knew then what I know now, I would never have bought those properties.
The issue is not that you are going to lose money. If you buy smart you may make money.
The issue is that you do not want to be involved with any part of Argentina I. E. Its government or its institutions. Buying and selling real estate in Argentina guarantees that you will have to deal with the most corrupt, dishonest government in the known world.
Furthermore, in my opinion, there is no hope for Argentina. The future of Argentina as a country is slow perpetual decline forever.
Enjoy the pussy and don't let the tarbaby get you I. E. The tarbaby is the government of Argentina.
Always remember, when in Argentina, you are always a lot better off if you have the option of taking the next plane out of Dodge.
Understand, and after reading a history of the last 100 years of Argentina, there seems little to question - rent, don't buy. Don't invest or do business either.
Can the same be categorically said for neighboring countries? Chile and Brazil are becoming more respectable. I hear good things about Uruguay, and promising things about Paraguay.
Member #3320
09-06-09, 16:34
This is just my personal opinion though many of you might just disagree.
I feel that if one is visiting Argentina once a year, for 2~3 months (like me) short term rental albeit expensive works out the cheapest and most convenient.
If one is living in BA for 6~7 months a year, perhaps a long term 2 year rental would work out the best. This would work out to be cheaper and more convenient. However, for long term rental either a local owning property has to give guarantee for you OR you need to pay 24 months rental in advance or have a bank give guarantee for you etc etc. In any case, long term rentals are not to easy to obtain here.
However in my opinion the best thing would be to own your own in BA, especially if one is visiting BA more than one time in a year and is in BA for at least 6~8 months a year. This is not for investment purpose as its unlikely one will get sufficient rent out of it, due to high competition in the rental market and the present recession in the tourism industry. Also, its highly unlikely that prices of property are going to rise (short term Capital Gains) any further than what they are now in BA (at their peak) The reason to own would be, so that you have a place of your own, set it up the way you like. Nothing like owning a private pad for sexual adventures! One could even have a live -in relationship here with someone you particularly fancy in your own private pad (will work out cheaper than in a long term rental) This is to gain maximum advantage of your property. If the property has a parking space, it would be nice to own a car in BA. The car can be securely parked in the underground parking area when one is out of the country. Owning a property can also help in inviting over friends and family to BA from abroad for short vacations and entertaining them.
Most of the advantages stated above are possible even with a long term rental but I would say owning rather than rental will be a tad bit easier and less expensive and more enjoyable.
The costs involved are not so prohibitive as they may seem. Its just on what one is willing to spend. It can be anything from 75K to 350 K for a studio to a 2 bedroom apartment in the city. It just depends on what is your budget and how much you can splurge for yr own private pad in BA.
I will like to add here that owning a good property in a good location in BA with a good view, good gym/swimming pool/the works, underground parking, convenience stores nearby, if rented out at a reasonable (not TOO high) a price, would always be in demand by tourists/mongers for rentals. The trick is to buy a good property which will catch the eye of prospective tenants among the 10,000's of options available. One typical example of such a property is Enn Arce towers at Arce and Ortega & Gasset which I rented out during my last visit. Such a property if properly priced, would always be in demand for short or long term rentals. Personally, I would not like to rent out my privately owned apartment for the obvious wear and tear and damages which will occur.
Regarding the corruption involved in buying a property in BA. I personally feel that its a bit exaggerated. I have seen much worse corruption in my world travels. This hold goods for some of the famous first world countries as well. Its just a matter of experience of facing the corruption.
Also, I feel that buying a property in any part of the world is not easy. One has to do a lot of leg work, research, running around, legal work, dealing with the tricky real estate agents, etc etc.
Its simple. No PAIN, NO GAIN!
I personally do not own a property in BA yet as I am not in BA for more than 2~3 months a year. I would like to spend more time here and in that case, I would definitely buy in the future.
The speculation regarding a crash of Argentine pesos and deflation of property prices is a very optimistic speculation by prospective buyers. This will happen or not remains to be seen. However, I do not personally see it happening in recent future. Though I could be drastically wrong.
Regarding the fact Argentina could cease to become a pussy heaven and not the best place to monger is again a very pessimistic speculation. I would personally say that Argentina has been a pussy heaven as early as the late 80's when I commenced my "mongering career". It is still so 20 years hence. I think it will continue to remain so 20 years hence. In which case, it makes sense to own a property in this pussy heaven. In 20 years of owning property here, one would save a lot and be able to spend much more on pussy! And in 20 years, its guaranteed that even the worst property gives a advantage in terms of financial investment because this is a typical long term capital investment bound to give profits.
Yes, its a matter of debate for the moment as who knows what lies ahead of us, and whether we will live for another 20 years!! I could be wrong but I doubt it.
Lets, wait and watch!
These are excellent cases presented thus far and I applaude each contributor. As it stands today, we are enjoying what is basically a 4:1 $AR /$USD swap rate. Should this change, I am sure that many of us here might look elsewhere.
I am currently in a short term place in Palermo Hollywood that sells today for $100K USD. I am renting it for $1000USD. For a single month. Granted this is still low season through September but it is also only a single month rental. If I were to pull money from US, at an easily justifiable and conservative 6% cost, this apartment would run me roughly $500US / mo or roughly half what I am now paying.
Yes, one could continue to rent and throw good money down the argentenian drains. Or purchase. Now which is best?
Please feel free to weigh in on what is an issue yet to be resolved in my mind.
Suerte.
JaggarProperties are always in U$D. Returns on capital are about 5% pa on a 2 year basis. I bought a house here 4 years back, and it has appreciated more than 100% , in U$ terms. Unless you are going to live here permanently, rent. There are more buckets of s hit in Bs As posing as real estate experts than there are street thieves, and that is saying something.
Argento
A couple of years ago and gave it over to a property manager to run for me. They find tenants and I simply go there when I wish. I paid cash and bought a nice dome (the dome of urban heritage) you can see it here:
http://www.bbiargentina.com/rentals/buenos-aires/centro/listing-87.html
The reason I bought the dome is. Well. Its fucking unbelieveable. I have 360 degree views - can see the cnongresso building full frontal and have geat views elsewhere. I wake up looking at the barolo building. The moncloa restaurant is across the way beside the plaza where I can find many places to have a coffee or eat. If you don't like that just stay at home and eat on one of two terraces big enough to hold a real party!
I love my dome - I am all alone on top of a great building in a stunning location.
I am rented all the time. All. The. Time.
I chose this place because it is unique and not just another cubbyhole in Recoleta.
I don't think it matters if you live in Buenos Aires 2 days a year or every day of the year - rent, don't buy.
You do not want anything to do with Argentina.
If you think Argentina or Buenos Aires is such a great real estate opportunity you must be smoking some really good stuff.
There are great real estate opportunities available but they are not in Argentina or Buenos Aires.
At the end of the day, you will regret getting involved with the tarbaby known as Argentina.
P. S. Listen to what Argento says about the so called real estate experts in Argentina and the so called real estate success stories in Argentina.
Cordoba Dan
09-18-09, 10:30
Tmontana, your place looks quite spectacular and the rehab tasteful. What does a dome go for these days or even a couple years ago?
Saludos.
TejanoLibre
09-18-09, 18:14
A couple of years ago and gave it over to a property manager to run for me. They find tenants and I simply go there when I wish. I paid cash and bought a nice dome (the dome of urban heritage) you can see it here:
http://www.bbiargentina.com/rentals/buenos-aires/centro/listing-87.html
The reason I bought the dome is. Well. Its fucking unbelieveable. I have 360 degree views - can see the cnongresso building full frontal and have geat views elsewhere. I wake up looking at the barolo building. The moncloa restaurant is across the way beside the plaza where I can find many places to have a coffee or eat. If you don't like that just stay at home and eat on one of two terraces big enough to hold a real party!
I love my dome - I am all alone on top of a great building in a stunning location.
I am rented all the time. All. The. Time.
I chose this place because it is unique and not just another cubbyhole in Recoleta.It's the best I've seen for the money!
If you can buy a place like Tmontana's then it's a no brainer! If it's a shit-box-shoe-box in the sky on any shit street in any shit neighborhood like Recoleta, Palermo, etc, etc, new construction crap hole. Sure, just rent it and watch the property values soar all around you as the new construction falls apart!
WTG TONY!
TL.
P. S - Have you got a Barrett.50?
TL
I posted on 7-13-09 about my problems with getting a "certificado de residencia en el exterior" for the AFIP. I had to have this certificate in order to be able to get a "certificado de retención". Since I'm not a resident, I had to have the retention certificate, before I could sell a home.
Eventually, someone asked a lawyer, who deals with the AFIP, about this and they were told that a letter from my friends, saying that I stayed with them for some amount of time was good enough. This letter had to have an apostille. It also had to have a certified translation done here.
Once I got this certificate of residence abroad, it took about 5 weeks for the AFIP to give me the retention certificate. My accountant did everything with the AFIP, so I don't know any details.
I screwed up when I didn't talk to anyone about transferring the money from this sale out of the country, before I did the boleto. The boleto had the sale price in dollars.
I think that most of the time, the boleto is torn up when you do the escritura. This sale was done under the "blanqueo" program that ended in August. I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but in this case, the boleto was not torn up. According to the escribana, it was a public boleto and because it had the price in dollars, that meant that the escritura also had to have the price in dollars. Both of these papers showed the actual selling price.
The places I talked to that do money transfers, told me that for nonresidents to be able to transfer this money, the escritura must have the price in pesos.
I haven't found out much since then, but it looks like it is quite difficult for nonresidents to transfer money out of here in any case.
If anyone has any information about nonresidents transferring money, it would be nice to know.
Blindpacemaker
02-17-10, 03:09
These are excellent cases presented thus far and I applaude each contributor. As it stands today, we are enjoying what is basically a 4:1 $AR /$USD swap rate. Should this change, I am sure that many of us here might look elsewhere.
I am currently in a short term place in Palermo Hollywood that sells today for $100K USD. I am renting it for $1000USD. For a single month. Granted this is still low season through September but it is also only a single month rental. If I were to pull money from US, at an easily justifiable and conservative 6% cost, this apartment would run me roughly $500US / mo or roughly half what I am now paying.
Yes, one could continue to rent and throw good money down the argentenian drains. Or purchase. Now which is best?
Please feel free to weigh in on what is an issue yet to be resolved in my mind.
Suerte.
JaggarWhen something looks to good to be true, especially in the property business, it usually is.
Investment is never that clear cut. Beaurocracy and legislation (along with the current government) play a huge role in any countries property market.
You may be paying only 500 dollars a month back, but with most mortages (I'm assuming you meant get a fixed rate mortage and buy the place instead of rent, and pay back the mortage payments instead? On a 20-25yr time scale end up costing you 2-2.5 what you paid. So you borrow 100 grand, you'll end up paying at least 200grand back.
So, are you really paying 500 less? Or has the bank just got you by the balls? I would never, ever invest in argentina, or ANY south american country for purely financial reasons. If I had the cash and wanted a holiday home out here, that would be a different story. Although property is never a guarenteed moneymaker, if your clever you make it into one of the safest investments available.
1 simple rule - Buy the most sq. Footage, for the cheapest price, in the nicest area, of the busiest and most lucrative city, which is in a country with a phenominal track record for previous property prices and is in good financial stead.
Ok so it's a long rule, cudda been 3/4 I know haha
http://dailyreckoning.com/the-argentine-boom-and-why-its-killing-the-peso/
Eurotrashy27
04-14-11, 17:05
What are some good sites that I can look at to learn about the real estate market in BA.
What are the areas due to appreciate in the next 5-10 years? (San Telmo, Palermo Hollywood?)
Thank you for the information in advance, if this happens, I promise a AP party to christen the joint!
Stan Da Man
08-06-11, 13:04
Hi all:
I have a friend who recently visited BA and really liked it. He had been thinking of buying a second home somewhere in Florida, but he got interested in the idea of exploring the suburbs outside of BA for a vacation or retirement property.
I recall a discussion somewhere on this board (not necessarily this thread) where someone described the house they built or bought in the suburbs in great detail, complete with cost, square footage, and a thorough description of the area. There are a number of posts here describing the process for the city. But, the post I am looking for described the process for one of the suburbs.
Can anyone recall that thread? I've searched around for an hour but I don't remember enough, such as the name of the suburb, to find anything. The discussion doesn't seem to be in this thread. I've searched under several of the local posters' tags, El Queso and others, but can't seem to come up with anything there, either. I think it's from three years ago or so.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm just trying to give him an idea on cost, size and the problems he may encounter. The earlier discussion was an excellent example.
He used to post under TL's resto threads. I met him in TL's place many times. He was subdividing the property he had and building spec houses and selling them. He was doing well financially. I believe that he had done this before in another country and had a lot of "know how" try to pm him. I am likely not spelling his name correctly.
Best of luck as always stan.
Bob
Lueck Hoff
08-17-11, 06:08
The correct name here is " Spassmusssein ". It is german and means something like " It has to be fun " in english.
Lueck Hoff
Spassmusssein
08-21-11, 13:04
Christinaism plus Budouism makes Xiristocracia.
For somebody new to Argentina, at the moment I would not recommend to invest in real estate.
Maybe in Capital Federal, but never in the provinces. In Capital Federal you still can find zones with good prices that surely will rise within the next years.
Be sure to have at least your CDI (individual tax number) from AFIP (H. Yrigoen 1550) to realize a buy.
Puerto Madero, all those advertising in "Palermos" and "Caballito" are IMO absolutely overheated and not worth the prices. Wait for the next "corralito" to buy then.
Look at Capital Federalas it has the shape of an open hand.
From the base (riverside) stretching out like a hand. With this picture you can imagine the next zones to develop.
I recommend that you stay in Buenos Aires a few times and look around.
Find out where you really like to stay and then get into it.
For the suburbs you have three choices:
The north (which is the richest zone close to BA, Vincente Lopez, Olivos, San Isidro, Martinez.) square meter/ground between 200 - 800 USD (lot)
The west (AVOID) as it is the poorest zone and you can be shure to have probs, living there as a stranger) sqm/grd between 10 and 80 USD (lot)
The south (a mixed middle-class zone from lower to upper, small cities with 100' - 400. 000 inhabitants) sqm/grd between 35 and 200 USD (lot)
Don't look for properties in the east, there is just water. Or Colonia in Uruguay).
Offers of ground/casas you will find in:
www.topinmobiliario.com.ar
or
www.buscadorprop.com.ar
Cost of construction depends of your experience and ability to manage a good Spanish ("spanglish" is not suficient for efective results).
Constructors actually are calculating between $ 650 to $ 1000 (USD, no pesos) per square meter.
I am constructing actually for arround 350 USD, but I just build my own investments, not for third ones. These costs include the mano de obra as since years I am working with the same team.
Some details:
- Swimming pool (8 x 4) $ 5000 - 10.000
- Jacuzi (triangle 150) $ 1000
- Juego de baño high-end $ 1000 - 2000
- Griferia $ 500 - 1200
- Shower triangle (glass, special high-presure...) $ 500 - 1500)
- Sauna $ 1000 - 2500
- sfety door entrance $ 1000
- Doors $ 200 - 500
- Windows $ 200 - 800.
- Ladrillo comun ps 0,60 - 0,80,
- Ladrillo 12x18x33/9 huecos ps 3,20 - 3,60
- Tiles porcelanato (60 x 60) ps 40 - 150.
Good luck.
It was good to run into you and talk. Where would I find you these day at 23:00 having a drink or a coffee? Is Eric in New York? I missed him in June and now again in August.
By the way and off the topic, where do you go to meet pleasant young ladies with high sex drives?
BOB
I am just finishing a small 90 square meter house in the provincia. Building costs without labor was around U$D 400 a square meter without land. Nothing special but a well built house. Insulated glass, heat, air, well insulated. You could easily double or triple this figure with labor costs an if you are into marble etc.
I wold be very interested in reading peoples thought on the current prices for apts / condos in Buenos Aires. When I look at what is advertised online or in store windows the price seems to be more than a little expensive for what a person gets, especially when compared to what it would cost to rent the place instead of buying it. I usually at look at 1, 2, or 3 bedroom places.
I wold be very interested in reading peoples thought on the current prices for apts / condos in Buenos Aires. When I look at what is advertised online or in store windows the price seems to be more than a little expensive for what a person gets, especially when compared to what it would cost to rent the place instead of buying it. I usually at look at 1, 2, or 3 bedroom places.I had a conversation with a local realtor the other day. Future prices are hard to predict with all the currency madness right now, and coupled with the recession onset. Best guess is to the downside, but how quickly that will occur is difficult to say.
He did say that at present, sales are about 15% below list price.
Do you think now is a time to buy?
Prices are down and may go lower. And I think the listed prices are soft by 10 - 15 %
Comments por favor.
Jackpot
Do you think now is a time to buy ??
Prices are down and may go lower. And I think the listed prices are soft by 10 - 15 %
Comments por favor.
JackpotWhere have you seen prices going down? Any specific area? I haven't seen prices lowered on apts I have been watching but I have seen a lot more 45 m2 or less apts up for sale for $120-$150k USD.
Do you think now is a time to buy ??
Prices are down and may go lower. And I think the listed prices are soft by 10 - 15 %
Comments por favor.
JackpotPrices NEVER go down in Argentina. Not the asking price anyway. Argentine law of economics 101. When there is less money and less demand, RAISE YOUR PRICES!
FrankAndStein
03-29-13, 17:43
And everybody thinks the future is rosy, and prices have nowhere to go but up. That's when demand is high and prices are rising.
Or you can buy when everyone thinks disaster is around the corner, and dollars are getting harder to get. Prices are falling and everyone is scared.
I know when I would prefer to buy.
Short term (1 to 2 years) things look pretty bad (although maybe better than anyplace in europe) but in 5 to 10 years this city will still be one of the best cities in the world for tourism, nightlife, etc.
As long as you don't mind waiting a few years, and taking some risk, returns will be very good, imo. A lot better than buying in a bubble market like those in Canada and Australia, where everything is 'safe' and booming.
And in the meantime you get to live in an inexpensive city or rent to tourists who pay in USD outside the country. Be careful about taxes though, and you better investigate what happens when you want to sell if you aren't a resident. Due diligence required, as always.
Silver Star
03-29-13, 20:18
And everybody thinks the future is rosy, and prices have nowhere to go but up. That's when demand is high and prices are rising.
Or you can buy when everyone thinks disaster is around the corner, and dollars are getting harder to get. Prices are falling and everyone is scared.
I know when I would prefer to buy.
Short term (1 to 2 years) things look pretty bad (although maybe better than anyplace in europe) but in 5 to 10 years this city will still be one of the best cities in the world for tourism, nightlife, etc.
As long as you don't mind waiting a few years, and taking some risk, returns will be very good, imo. A lot better than buying in a bubble market like those in Canada and Australia, where everything is 'safe' and booming.
And in the meantime you get to live in an inexpensive city or rent to tourists who pay in USD outside the country. Be careful about taxes though, and you better investigate what happens when you want to sell if you aren't a resident. Due diligence required, as always.If you are non resident selling an apt here, AFIP (Federal Tax Agency) just assumes you have rented out APT when you were away, and the burden of proof otherwise is on the owner, then if you give in instead of fight, they add on penalty and interest. Also, if you have a higher end property, very important to be up to date on paying the yearly wealth tax.
Carmille21
08-29-13, 13:03
Would like to know the lowest possible prices for single apt/condo. Thanks
Withington agent (http://www.bridgfords.co.uk/forsaleoffice/withington/413/)
Hello guys,
I have been involved here in real-state world for foreigners as long as one of my clients has had several properties in the city. I'm here again to prepare things to sell the last of his apartments and I'm praying to forget this fucky city!
If you bought several years ago as investment and you rented the flats in dollars for sure you made a good business but golden age is over... You can buy here as investment or for living. Both options are wrong in my opinion but I can give you only objective reasons for the first one.
You have to pay a lot of taxes and if you are a foreigner your taxes are higher. This won't change, in my opinion. Of course if you rent a flat in dollars and pay your taxes in pesos it's fantastic but, hey dude, search some short-term rentals webpages and you will see hundreds of empty apartments everywhere. Dollars are not entering as always for real-state.
AFIP has increased controls a lot. Before nobody pays anything! It was a great party! But now you have to pay if you want to be able to sell in the future (don't worry, they will wait for you... Another important thing is that moving money in this country is difficult and sometimes can be really expensive (it depends on the market). Nowadays entering money is more expensive than send out. And of course you need to enter money to buy... Or not? The only good thing I'm going to say about this place is that you have always a back-door to do some extra money with weird systems but they are not stable or serious...
If you like this place of course you can buy... Why not? (maybe because you haven't visit other countries much better! But as investment for foreigners, nowadays, it's a shit... It doesn't depends on the current or future price of apartments. It's the whole system waiting to take off the money you earn! And foreigners in this country are the last. For them it's a good thing to give us a worse treatment. Someone told me this sentence I will remember all my life:
"Los argentinos son expertos en montar fiestas para que las paguen los demás".
And "los demás" are always the foreigners!
Good luck anyway!
Xavi.
A friend of mine is just retired and he wants to purchase a Winery and / or Vineyard in Argentina or Uruguay. I was wondering if anybody had a tip has to a honest lawyer and broker in Argentina.
A friend of mine is just retired and he wants to purchase a Winery and / or Vineyard in Argentina or Uruguay. I was wondering if anybody had a tip has to a honest lawyer and broker in Argentina.Honest lawyer and honest broker are both oxymorons in Argentina, especially if you are a foreigner.
Tres3.
A friend of mine is just retired and he wants to purchase a Winery and / or Vineyard in Argentina or Uruguay. I was wondering if anybody had a tip has to a honest lawyer and broker in Argentina.Much better if he finds a local to go with him when hes looking, even if he has to pay them something for the day.
Daddy Rulz
08-07-14, 21:21
Honest lawyer and honest broker are both oxymorons in Argentina, especially if you are a foreigner.
Tres3.But my lawyer so far has been pretty honest. I don't know if he wants his name or number here but I'll ask him and if so pass it along.
TejanoLibre
08-07-14, 22:38
A friend of mine is just retired and he wants to purchase a Winery and / or Vineyard in Argentina or Uruguay. I was wondering if anybody had a tip has to a honest lawyer and broker in Argentina.I have had a connection in Mendoza for the last 10 years.
He is an attorney and a landowner.
He is my father's landlord and my ex-partners partner.
Very trustworthy.
You are welcome to talk to him.
I have been in Mendoza for the last 4 months. Lovely weather!
Thanks,
TL.
P.S. Uruguayan wine is virtually unknown where as a nice Malbec from Mendoza is world renowned!
It should not be a hard decision.
Hey guys,
Just a question for the BA Donald Trumps. If I could buy a condo in the US for 200 k and generate $1500 monthly rent, how much would I have to pay in cash for a BA condo that will generate the same expected cash flow? The assumptions are that the properties are located in city core areas and can be easily rented to college educated professionals for the foreseeable twenty year future. Also, the US condo can be bought for 20% down with a 30 year institutional note at about 4. 3%. Square footage is not a factor, only that the location and structure can attract a corporate America tenant.
Member #3320
08-12-14, 19:56
Hey guys,
Just a question for the BA Donald Trumps. If I could buy a condo in the US for 200 k and generate $1500 monthly rent, how much would I have to pay in cash for a BA condo that will generate the same expected cash flow? The assumptions are that the properties are located in city core areas and can be easily rented to college educated professionals for the foreseeable twenty year future. Also, the US condo can be bought for 20% down with a 30 year institutional note at about 4. 3%. Square footage is not a factor, only that the location and structure can attract a corporate America tenant.200 K property in BA can generate a rent of 1500 USD a month. Provided its a short term fully furnished rental. This means you would pay the building expenses, electricity, wi-fi and of course any major repairs etc. If the rental is really short term, you would also be paying for maid service and change of bulbs, wear and tear.
If the building is a good property, you will generally have less problems with wear and tear.
Plus the property may not be rented 12 months a year unless you have a good agent (which will then increase the outflow costs) and tourists are still coming to BA. No Argentine will rent for this rent or for short term.
So the 1500 us$ rent a month may become much lesser after all the outflows.
Hope this helps.
Thomaso276
08-12-14, 20:58
DO NOT, as a foreigner, ever buy real estate in BA as an investment. USA is a better investment by far.
Buying is easy, managing & selling is a disaster.
If you have money to invest keep it far away from BA. Why do you think Argies have billions in dollars overseas.
You want to live here, that's different but still a little chancy. Rent for a couple of years to see if you like it.
Does anyone have an opinion of the current real estate market in BA?
I'm down here enough that I'm thinking of buying instead of paying rent. But to me the prices seem quite high, roughly 3,000 USD per m2 in Recoleta/Palermo. That number doesn't seem to jive with a per capita GDP of 12,000, roughly 20% of USA. Everything here seems to have gotten quite expensive over the last few years for a developing country...even when I go to the grocery store it's about the same price as USA...the peso seems immensely overvalued. The last time I saw prices like this was during my first visit to BA back in 2000, and we all know how things soon crashed after that.
So that's just my gut feeling. I don't have any current knowledge of the local economy or housing market, just some years of general experience in Argentina.
Anybody care to chime in with their opinion? If supported by some sort of data even better. Buy now or wait for that big crash (we've been waiting a while)?
Rock Harders
02-16-17, 05:07
The $3000 USD/ meter figure you mention is accurate for apartments in premium locations in Recoleta and Palermo. Essentially all real estate in CABA is owned outright (as in no mortgages) so somebody is actually forking over the cold hard cash (literally) every time a piece of real estate changes hands, which makes the real estate market in CABA as stable and the prices a real as anywhere in the world since the local market DOES NOT float on a sea of debt as in common in most places around the world. The AR peso is extremely overvalued at the moment; however anyone who has lived through a decade or more of Argentine economics can tell you that the currency swings from overvalued to undervalued and is only very rarely and for short periods of time what could be assessed as fairly valued.
Does anyone have an opinion of the current real estate market in BA?
I'm down here enough that I'm thinking of buying instead of paying rent. But to me the prices seem quite high, roughly 3,000 USD per m2 in Recoleta/Palermo. That number doesn't seem to jive with a per capita GDP of 12,000, roughly 20% of USA. Everything here seems to have gotten quite expensive over the last few years for a developing country...even when I go to the grocery store it's about the same price as USA...the peso seems immensely overvalued. The last time I saw prices like this was during my first visit to BA back in 2000, and we all know how things soon crashed after that.
So that's just my gut feeling. I don't have any current knowledge of the local economy or housing market, just some years of general experience in Argentina.
Anybody care to chime in with their opinion? If supported by some sort of data even better. Buy now or wait for that big crash (we've been waiting a while)?
Does anyone have an opinion of the current real estate market in BA?
I'm down here enough that I'm thinking of buying instead of paying rent. But to me the prices seem quite high, roughly 3,000 USD per m2 in Recoleta/Palermo. That number doesn't seem to jive with a per capita GDP of 12,000, roughly 20% of USA. Everything here seems to have gotten quite expensive over the last few years for a developing country...even when I go to the grocery store it's about the same price as USA...the peso seems immensely overvalued. The last time I saw prices like this was during my first visit to BA back in 2000, and we all know how things soon crashed after that.
So that's just my gut feeling. I don't have any current knowledge of the local economy or housing market, just some years of general experience in Argentina.
Anybody care to chime in with their opinion? If supported by some sort of data even better. Buy now or wait for that big crash (we've been waiting a while)?My first trip to BA was decades ago. I've seen the economic and societal winds of change blow unexpectedly and forcefully in this country. I fully agree with the post below from Thomaso276 regarding the consideration of buying real estate in Buenos Aires; especially so given, in my view, what I consider to be current inflated prices.
Generally speaking, IMHO, I would not trust an Argentino as far as I could throw him, or her. So, if you can afford to do so, my advice is to rent well in order to enjoy freedom of movement along with peace of mind concerning your investment. Good luck whatever you decide to do.
My first trip to BA was decades ago. I've seen the economic and societal winds of change blow unexpectedly and forcefully in this country. I fully agree with the post below from Thomaso276 regarding the consideration of buying real estate in Buenos Aires; especially so given, in my view, what I consider to be current inflated prices.
Generally speaking, IMHO, I would not trust an Argentino as far as I could throw him, or her. So, if you can afford to do so, my advice is to rent well in order to enjoy freedom of movement along with peace of mind concerning your investment. Good luck whatever you decide to do.My first trip to Argentina was about 30 years ago and I worked and lived in Bs As for a year.
I 100% concur with the above.
Don B.
I bought and sold two apartments while I was living here. I made a good return both times, but would never buy here again. I was lucky to get my money out the country without paying a huge sum in taxes. AFIP told me each year "No taxes to pay on an apartment of your value", until I came to sell it. It would have cost me upwards of $10k dollars to exit. Luckily my accountant arranged a $500 'fee' to a friend working in AFIP and my problem was solved. Its so unpredictable here; rent not buy. Long term airbnbs can get around the guarantor problem.
Big Boss Man
02-18-17, 00:52
I bought and sold two apartments while I was living here. I made a good return both times, but would never buy here again. I was lucky to get my money out the country without paying a huge sum in taxes. AFIP told me each year "No taxes to pay on an apartment of your value", until I came to sell it. It would have cost me upwards of $10k dollars to exit. Luckily my accountant arranged a $500 'fee' to a friend working in AFIP and my problem was solved. Its so unpredictable here; rent not buy. Long term airbnbs can get around the guarantor problem.I don't understand or maybe it is just not clear why taxes would be a hindrance. In California, the amount of capital gain over $250000 is taxed at 15% federally and 10% by the State on a owner-occupied single family house. You would have missed out on some nice gains in the real estate market if you worried about the tax payment. In fact, the more taxes you paid on the deal the better.
The fact that the AFIP is open to bribes is more of a reason not to invest in my opinion. I want to invest in places where there is rule of law.
One of the biggest problems here in Argentina concerning real estate sales is the lack of bank financing. In order to sell a property you need to find a buyer with cash. When the buyer has cash they expect and almost always receive a very large discount. Or you the seller need to become the "bank" also. Major problem is when the people stop paying , the law does not work like you would expect it to. It can take years to remove a non payer and even then the courts might order you to repay all that buyer has already paid. This amounts to the buyer living rent free for years at your expense. While there is money to made, you need to be lucky and patient. It is not as easy as in the states.
I don't understand or maybe it is just not clear why taxes would be a hindrance. In California, the amount of capital gain over $250000 is taxed at 15% federally and 10% by the State on a owner-occupied single family house. You would have missed out on some nice gains in the real estate market if you worried about the tax payment. In fact, the more taxes you paid on the deal the better.
The fact that the AFIP is open to bribes is more of a reason not to invest in my opinion. I want to invest in places where there is rule of law.Your statement seems a bit inconsistent with a person choosing to live in California where the rule of law is frequently not applied.
Big Boss Man
02-18-17, 17:00
Your statement seems a bit inconsistent with a person choosing to live in California where the rule of law is frequently not applied.Well California is booming. You should see the under thirty guy driving a Lamborghini to the local gym. Either he is dot.com millionaire or connected to the Marvel Studios which are right across the street from the gym. Heck maybe he owns Breitbart. Why is Breitbart located in Los Angeles?
I guess that is why we voted 70% to 30% to stay the course. When Trump and O'Connell talk about getting America's economy back on track, the message doesn't connect. And yes I live in LA County which is probably ground zero for illegal immigration to which I think you are referring. About 1 million of the 13 million residents are illegal. There was a time in the beach towns where most of the bartenders were Canadians. Most of them were illegal as they had overstayed their visas.
I do think that under Trump California's economy will slow. Under Republican tax cuts, personal income tax will grow for Californians because of the elimination of Schedule A deductions. Republicans need California's economy to slow because it is the counter-example to all their economic modeling. For example, high taxes discourage entrepreneurship. You notice that so far Trump has only visited places that voted for him. And Trump is still talking about Hillary Clinton who I think is irrelevant now.
Well California is booming. You should see the under thirty guy driving a Lamborghini to the local gym. Either he is dot.com millionaire or connected to the Marvel Studios which are right across the street from the gym. Heck maybe he owns Breitbart. Why is Breitbart located in Los Angeles?
I guess that is why we voted 70% to 30% to stay the course. When Trump and O'Connell talk about getting America's economy back on track, the message doesn't connect. And yes I live in LA County which is probably ground zero for illegal immigration to which I think you are referring. About 1 million of the 13 million residents are illegal. There was a time in the beach towns where most of the bartenders were Canadians. Most of them were illegal as they had overstayed their visas.
I do think that under Trump California's economy will slow. Under Republican tax cuts, personal income tax will grow for Californians because of the elimination of Schedule A deductions. Republicans need California's economy to slow because it is the counter-example to all their economic modeling. For example, high taxes discourage entrepreneurship. You notice that so far Trump has only visited places that voted for him. And Trump is still talking about Hillary Clinton who I think is irrelevant now.And ice cream melts in the sun.
I don't understand or maybe it is just not clear why taxes would be a hindrance. In California, the amount of capital gain over $250000 is taxed at 15% federally and 10% by the State on a owner-occupied single family house. You would have missed out on some nice gains in the real estate market if you worried about the tax payment. In fact, the more taxes you paid on the deal the better.
The fact that the AFIP is open to bribes is more of a reason not to invest in my opinion. I want to invest in places where there is rule of law.Sorry, I maybe didn't make it very clear. When I sold the first property it was below the limit where taxes would have to be paid, so I paid none when I sold it to buy my second property. That was more expensive, and when I went to my local AFIP office to check whether I needed to pay any annual taxes, they said no, and none to be paid if I sold it. When I was about to sell, I double checked, and I was told (by the same guy I'd spoken to for the previous 4 years) that there was a tax to pay, plus I owed taxes for the previous four years, plus a penalty, plus interest. That was when I thought fuck them, I'll pay a bribe.
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