View Full Version : Quality of life in BA
Thomaso276
06-01-07, 23:50
Pros and cons of BA after 5 years - my take.
Chicas.
Pros: still some great values out there, friendly reliable service if you act accordingly. Quality can be hit or miss at the value level, but service is hit or miss at the "eye-candy" level. One of the few things that has not gotten out of hand. Beautiful women all over the place. Blondes, brunettes, redheads - unlimited variety styles. What ever you want you can find here.
Cons: this 300 pesos an hour, 80 pesos a drink stuff is not for everyone. Drinks for dancers at over 100 dollars! Please. Remember the poster who quoted a great ciy is where you can get dinner and a chica for 100 dollars. For the average monger we are right at the edge.
Food.
Pros: Quality is good both in restaurants and supermarkets, service can be sketchy for foreigners. Don't let the fawning attitudes fool you, Argentinos get better service.
Cons: Shortages are more frequent (currently problems with dairy products, there have been beef shortages as well) prices have really spiked. The average Argentino is being priced out. Forget the seafood.
Clothing.
Pros: Currently none! I walk alot and pay attention to this economic barometer, it is outrageous considering the workers are paid shit and the factories are local for the most part.
Cons: Unbelievable price gouging. Saw a coudoroy sport jacket the other day for 200 Dollars in a Dior store. Local merchants along Florida want 2000 pesos for a standard carpincho jacket. 3 months ago they were 1400 - 1800 (still overpriced) Leather jackets with some style and quality are showing up around 1200 pesos or more. Don't be fooled by the 300-400 pesos sale item in the window. It is one of a kind and low quality shit. Lots of fake leather now and antelope crap. Dress shirts 35 - 40 dollars in most men's stores. Sneakers triple the cost in the States! You really have to shop around for a reasonable price on average products. Europeans must think this stuff is a bargain.
Electronics.
Pros: prices have really dropped over the last couple of years for TV's, stereos etc. (thanks to the trade deal with China)
Cons: Still more than the States, and a lot less selction of brands and models.
Transportation.
Pros: easy bus and subway system, cheap because of government subsidizing which may be less after the Presidential elections. Taxis - I hardly take them anymore, not just the expense but traffic conditions mean you can walk 10 blocks in about the same amount of time. Traffic jams are out of control. Trains are not too reliable, but I only use the Mitre line. Some friends use the Once station lines and say there are horrible and dangerous.
Cons: too may wildcat strikes and accidents. Mortality rate on highways is atrocious. Buses, trucks are like magnets for each other. Drivers may not be the most professional and if overworked fatigue sets in and then they fall aslp at the wheel. Lots of drunk drivers early in morning after leaving clubs. Latest news focuses on pedestrians getting run over in suburbs.
Utilities.
Pros: Very cheap because there has not been an increase since the crash. This will change after the election but very little for residents. Businesses, factories are already being hit with increases. Service is pretty good in Centro. Internet, cable, Direct-TV are all good (American business plans) Never had a problem or a billing error using easy pay or a bank to pay a bill. Automatic credit card payent is available but international cards charge 3% for this.
Cons: some residential areas are overbuilt and the infrastructure can't handle the residential needs. Trying to arrange service over the phone is difficult, always easier to just go the office. Phone companies are still charging for local calls, cell phone rates are a rip off. Serious energy problems coming up and international financing won't touch his place (except for Venuzuela buying all the bonds) - where are the new electric plants, refineries, gas lines going to come from?
Health Issues.
Pros: good service, decent skills, low prices.
Cons: compared to the States, none.
Security.
Pros: Pretty safe in the city, lots of non-active cops around. Most serious crimes are in the suburbs, provinces surrounding BA.
Cons: Dangerous roads, petty theft and strong arm robbery always a possibility. Mob mentality rules in some areas. Lack of a stable banking system means lots of cash in the house which means lots of home invasions.
Government.
Pros: you really have to fuck up to get their attention. Lots of privacy issues and adult mentality about relationships are protected. Depending on where you live things get done. Lots of public works projects to keep people working.
Cons: See 2002 crash, way too liberal with strikers and pickets at the expense of the working guy who just wants to get along. Repeat: Lots of public works projects to keep people working. Peronist mentality regarding workers. Unions negotiate raises with governement and then the government tells business how much to pay.
Economy.
Pros: Keeping the dollar at three for one even though it is weak. Globalization and a positive world economy have helped Argentina tremendously.
Cons: Euro is over 4 for one. Not much producion of big ticket items occurs here in Argentina. Economic data is skewed by political intervention (see inflation controversy with INDEC) Big raises for unions over the past three years (about 18% per year) no productivity increases (subway workers make over 3000 pesos monthly and work a 6 hour shift) It cannot last. My feeling is that European tourists, transients are fueling inflation because things here are a real bargain compared to their home base. Big international money is reluctant to invest because of past problems. When things turn sour elsewhere, they will really turn sour here. Inflation is number one concern: for example, in 2003 a VW Gol was 18,000 pesos today it is 36,000. Lots of credit out there for a country and people that historically do not like to pay their bills. Nor do they save for a rainy day. Problems are on the horizen after the election. Lots of price fixing and gouging - it seems to be the Argentine business model.
Mongers.
Pros: Probably the most sophisticated guys from all over. A certain level of class is inherent in most mongers who take the time to visit here. Discreet and well intentioned, they tend to have a big city mentality and fit right in. Always willing to help out or hang out. The trouble makers on the board are rarely seen around.
Cons: Once in a while a newbie will let us know what we are doing wrong and how they will change the system. They usually leave and never come back.
Overall: I really like living here, but not as much as my first two - three years. Still better than sex prison and the best place in South America for what we want. A big city with service and excitement. Business mentality is creepy, special prices for foreigners are always lurking. Value for many products has gone down as well as quality. Chicas are the best for variety and service. Quallity of life is still excellent.
Thomaso,
Well, I wondered where you been. Now I know, working on your fucking dissertation! Excellent job. I agree with it all, particularly the concerns about post election shit hitting the fan economically. Sooner or later, Kirchner is going to find himself between the devil and the deep blue sea as regards union demands, mob mentality, strikes etc. I tend to be on the liberal side for the most part, but the nasty element on the left in Argentina has been so coddled over the past two years that they are going to eventually bite the hand that feeds them. That should be "fun" to watch. BTW, the BA Herald went up to TWO pesos today.
Excellent and very detailed report, Thomaso276. I agree with almost everything.
You can still get a good chica and dinner for 100 bucks, but of course you've got to start calling recommended internet girls ($150-250AR) not from Madaho's / Black, places that over the past few years are focusing mainly in you guys coming from the States and Europe with fresh Benjamins and Euros.
I too can't believe the price tags on the snickers. I'm a sports fan, have traveled to the US many times, and always knew that shoes are cheaper there. But now the difference is enormous, as you said.
And about the economy hitting the fan again, yeah, this has been an ongoing rumor for a couple of months now (at least I heard it from professors in college) Might be a good idea to start selling stuff and grab them Benjies before it all goes to hell again.
Good to know you like living down here, despite some serious cons like our VERY unstable economy.:D.
Cheers.
I know shopping. I was here last year and I will have been here for a total of 25 days this coming week. I've been buying alot of goods and here are my thoughts.
Carpincho- Carpincho is a really cool looking skin that comes from a mountain rodent that resembles a giant rat or gerble. The skin is very luxurious and unlike other fine skins rain doesnt bother it. Just hang and dry.
I collect leather from all parts of South America so I had to buy a carpincho jacket. I paid $1050 AR $350 u$. I looked everywhere for mine. Florida Ave. Lavalle St. The little polo shops on Murillo st. I wound up getting it on Florida ave. I had many problems with the different jackets I had seen. The colors were not consistent or the skin wasnt cut thick enough to my liking discolorations and the cheaper ones had too many natural scratches.
I never saw one for $2000 AR although I did see $1400/1500 AR quite often. I had the owner of the store bring 4 different ones over from the factory until I finally found the one I liked.
Fleece- You have to get a fleece pullover or zip up jacket here. Its the look to have. Whatever north face and colombia sells for $100 you can get for $10 - 12 if you know where to look.
I mentioned it last year so here it is again. Ave Corrientes from Ayacucho until Purreyedon up and down the side streets are little whole sale shops that also sell to the public. Great stuff for rock bottom prices even today. If your lucky enough to find the leather accesories store you will get a shitload of leather pouches and good leather pen holders for $28 u$.
All that crap on Florida st comes from this area. Don't be fooled.
Shoes- Not a steal but an ok deal. The average is $50 for a decent pair of dress shoes. Its alot better than the states but you still have to love the shoes to part with $50 especially when you will be drooling over the expensive ones.
I go to the outlet stores where they have shoes sitting on top of shoe boxes. I bought 3 pairs and I was happy with the nice discount I got but it wasnt a steal like last year. I bought carpincho boots last year for $120 US. Those days are long gone.
Belts- Its still a great place to buy great belts for cheap as well as wallets etc. You can get a great dress belt for $20 and a casual jeans belt from $7 $12 US. All really nice leather.
Here and there you can get a label on sale like christian dior or givenchy. I found a store selling givenchy fleece pullovers for $35 AR while the others were selling it for $90 AR. You have to pound the pavement like I did. There is no other way.
I probably won't come back to AR until another crash or something. The pussy is still cheap but with inflated hotel prices and having done the theaters and tourist things I would need a better $ incentive not to chose somewhere I havent been.
Forget about your dreams of buying cheap named brand suits and great dress shirts. You can get alot of that stuff in Lima, Peru. If you havent been to the department stores in Lima's Miraflores area your missing out on some good deals especially when you arrive during the end of season sales.
Thanks for the report Thomaso, very good job.
Having spent as much time down their as most Mongers over the past 6 years I'm in total agreement.
I personally believe that the "Golden Day's" of Buenos Aires are over, (the years just after the devaluation) Argentina is still one of the best value travel destinations in the world.
It will be interesting to watch what happens after the next election. From my perspective they have so many problems that its impossible to fix the place. It would seem at times that the place is falling apart right in front of our eyes.
Exon
Tomaso.
And the others.
Well I have not lived here as long as you have, (only a year) but it seems to be me that most of the things you have include in your list of pros and cons are about prices of good and services compared with the US. In other words. The "quantity of life". You have said very little the "quality of life"
I agree with about the overpricing of designer label shoes and clothes. Locally produced cloths and shoes are reasonable, especially if you buy in discount stores, but you have to be careful about quality. Many local producers use cheap and inferior materials. But anyway, with cheap slave labour, and high tech capital investment, China is in the process of wiping out the rest of the word's clothing industry. Did you really come here to buy Hugo Boss shirts, or Armani Jackets?
When it comes to chicas, you're also right that this 300 pesos and hour 80 pesos a drink is not for everybody. But that Recoleta scene is for dumb tourist, on a one week vacation, who don't read this board and think that's cheap. There is plenty of good value pussy to be had. This business is a bit hit and miss, wherever you are in the world. BA is no different. But with a bit of persistence, and if you speak a bit of Spanish, you can find, charming, sexy girls here, with a great attitude, at a third of the price you'd pay in the UK, or Europe and less then half the price of Europe, especially nice are Paraguayas, and provincial girls form Tucuman, Corrientes or Salta. Portenas tend to be a bit more businesslike and hard-headed especially those who speak reasonable English. When I meet a local girl who speaks English I am always a bit wary, especially if she's a 9 or a 10, and if she's used to working in Blacks, Madahos or the like. She knows she can make a quick buck from high rolling tourists, who think this place is cheap compared to London, Manhatten or Milan.
I don't agree with you about transport. Public transport is dirt cheap. Taxis have gone up in price last year but still cheap and operate all night. I have never been overcharged or taken by the wrong route. I can come out of Tango club at 4 in the morning anywhere in the city and find a cab in less than two minutes. The subte works fine as do city buses. Can be a bit crowded at rush hour. Good idea to avoid the line between Retiro and Constitution on a Friday evening. Suburban trains another matter. Train to Tigre OK, but suburban trains out of Constitution especially to poorer southern suburbs, dirty unreliable and dangerous.
The politics. Well to be sure no great shakes, plenty of corruption, and inefficiency, but then anyone who watched the aftermath of New Orleans flood, might be hard to convince that the US government is up to the job. Here at least they don't have a government that is embarking on a series of incompetent, counter-productive and wrong-headed foreign policy adventures. One good reason for living here is not having to be part of "the war on terror".
But if you are talking about "quality of life" and not just the price of pussy and nike trainers, then one good reason for living here is the people. I don't know if my experience is atypical, but I find people here, with the odd exception, charming, generous, educated, aware (much more so than the average American. I don't know if any of you went to the recent annual two week long book fair but if you did you would have been amazed to see half the population of BA, or so it seemed, whole families, kids, grandmothers. Everyone browsing through the book stands attending talks by visiting authors, enjoying the free concerts. Make no mistake about it these are educated, aware people) and, for the most part, people here are just plain easy to get on with, especially if you go outside the snob parts of BA (Recolata, Bario Norte, San Isidro etc) To be sure I wouldn't like to run a business here. Business transactions bring seem to bring out the worst in people, especailly it seems in Argentinians, but when it comes to normal day-to-day social interaction, or meeting people as you travel around, living in Argentina is a pleasure.
And last but not least, BA is a great place if you like music and dance. If you like music of any kind, classical, jazz, 1970s soul, Cuban salsa, Brazilian samba, Bolivian, Spanish pop or flamenco, Argentinian folk, or tango, then BA is a great place. CDs are a third of the price In the summer there are countless free outdoor conderts. Ticket prices are low. The standard of musicianship is high and the people here very appreciative, and involved. Sure you have great night life in San Francisco, New York or London, but has become seriously expensive and hard work. When I come out of club, in London or New York at three in the morning to go home, the price of the taxi home (if you can find one) would keep me in pussy for a week in BA.
Last but not least. I am getting a bit tired of people on this board writing about the "golden years" after the crash. After WW2 I am told you could have pussy in Berlin for the price of a pair of stocking. My dad spent a month in 1948 in the south of France staying in the best hotels and eating at the best restaurants, on a teacher's salary. That was then. Now is now. Forget 2002-5 that was an economic blip, a short period of hypercheapness. Now we are back to "normal", and Argentina is still cheap for most things. Anyone who only goes to places that dumb tourists go, is not going to find many bargains, for pussy or for anything else, and that doesn't matter whether you are in Paris, New York or BA. Just live a bit more like the local do and you'll be fine
Lysander,
After having agreed with much of what Thomaso posted, I also agree with your assessment. My bet is that Thomaso would agree with many of your points (certainly not all) Many of us transplanted Americans agree about the "quality" of life here. Otherwise we would not be here. As has been noted on many occasions, many Americans tend to turn a blind eye to the "deficits" in the USA. That won't change any time soon. Thanks for the post.
Gents:
Fascinating dialogue on the economy etc. I'm a two time visitor to BA and have grown to dearly love the place. I know the 5-6 years post crash have probably just been a pleasant aberration for foreign visitors but in real terms can anyone give me a realistic guidleine on how things compare now to pre-crash (2001)
I'm very interested in investing maybe 100,000 USD in an apartment in BA. You all know what that 100,000 USD buys you right at the minute and I have a pretty good idea too after enjoying my 2nd visit there in January, my question is what would this currently typical 100,000 USD apartment have cost prior to the crash and maybe some of you even know what it's relative value might have been at various other time in the recent past (let's say 20 years)
2007.$100,000 (60-70 SQ M, 1-2 bed apt Recoletta?
2003 $?
2001 (PRE CRASH)$?
1995.$?
1987.$?
I understand that traditionally ARG has economically been one of the most volitile places on the planet. I've read that at one point in the 1920's when the rest of the world was in the grips of a massive depression, BA was the wealthiest and most expensive city on earth.
I grew up in Ireland, and in the 1980's it was practically a 3rd world country, now two decades later Dublin is the richest and most expensive capital in Europe (property, cost of living etc) Houses that were 40,000 USD in 1987 are selling for 1.5M - 2M USD currently.
I don't ever envision getting that kind of return out of a BA apartment over the next 20 years, but do any of you see a way that it could be a decent investment that doesn't go to hell in a handbasket over the next few years.
Anyway I'm entirely envious of all you bastards that are currently enjoying the privilages of BA living while I'm back in the US (sex prison) until next January.
PS: I'm not a wealthy guy so a purchase like this would be a "fair punt"
(huge gamble! For me.
CONCHUIR
I have read the whole comments and I agree with many.
I have been living in BA for 8 years now, and in terms of quality of life it's one of the best places I have ever lived in. I also lived in Europe, Africa, North America and other countries of South America and BA it's really a great place to live in my experience. Regarding the quality, what makes BA a great city is people, if they want they can attend to the univerisity for free, at any age, eating in restaurants it's possible for any average-income person, also gym, hairdressing, concerts, clubs, it's accessible for the average person. That makes, in my opinion, the Porteno culture to seem more sophisticated.
Yes, of course, the prices are higher now than in 2002, but that's due the economic recovery, keep in mind most of the taxis in 2002 were those 1980's peugeots and now big part of the cars are brand new. If you bring money you earn in a foreign country and all you want to do it's to fuck all day, of course you'll feel your wallet gets empty faster than in 2002. Anyway, part of this, because of the old law of demand-supply law and part of it because of our fellow mongers tipping / overpaying for pussy time after time. Buenos Aires had tourism before of the crisis too when BA was one of the more expensive cities in the world close to NY, London and Tokio. The boliches existed before and the clarin ads were there in the section 59, Internet was starting at that time and girls did not wanted to show her faces on the web, none of them. Mac Donalds was there and in BA stills a rip-off since a meal on a served restaurant (I mean real food) was about the same than in a restaurant and after that never, ever, eat at mac donals again.
Regarding business, yes, it's not the best place in the world to do business because of the poverty of the people, which traslates as final consumer products sales are less in quantity than a developed country and makes everything gets very slow compared to the US, but is much better than doing business in Chile or Uruguay.
Corruption is only bad when is against you, but corruption is not so bad when you want to do business and you are not a big corporation. By the way, corruption is everywhere, the variable is the amount that grants access to it.
Buenos Aires is a great place to experience, and in my experience I have learned many things in here. I understand the language barreer can separate a good experience from a bad one, but people travelled, immigrated, conquored and changed environment long long time ago, may be our generations are a little bit lazy.
I'm probably one of the few Mongers that post on the forum that visited Buenos Aires before the crash in 2001.
Back then one peso was one US dollar but prices in peso's were much cheaper.
One of my benchmarks on pricing is the price of Beef De Lomo in a good restaurant. Back then it was 8 to 12 peso's, now its 28 to 35 peso's.
Chica's at Play Woman, (No longer in business) and Black were 150 to 200 peso's, now there 400 to 600 peso's for top quality women.
I don't know about the real estate market back then but I'm sure it was expensive.
If $100,000 dollars is big money to you I'd suggest you buy a Bond or CD and use the interest income to pay your rent with. If you buy down their your taking on unexceptable risk gambleing on the Argentine economy and their corrupt Government & politices.
The real estate business is tough enough here in the USA. Why take the risk in Argentina.
Exon
I guess it depends where you buy. I bought during the crisis and got a reasonable deal for a outsider. I am sure I paid more then a native would have. But now the property is worth close to ten times more in just 6 years. Not huge money, but decent. I am thinking of putting condos here in a few years. I should be able to make at least a mil. But I am sure it will take at least 5 to 10 years depending on what the economy is like then. Of course I did not buy in the city, but on the fringes. The fringes rapidly become the city as things grow. If you have a few years to wait, it works out good!
Corruption is only bad when is against you, but corruption is not so bad when you want to do business and you are not a big corporation. By the way, corruption is everywhere, the variable is the amount that grants access to it.You said exactly what I was thinking MCSE. Very smart commentary.
Lysander, About your question. I would have to say this probably isn't the best place for it, you might want to start a new thread but I will give it a shot. First of all you havent said if you are looking to buy an investment property for a short term or long term investment. And also, do you plan to use this as a rental property to generate monthly income or are you looking for a second home / vacation home, that you can live in a few months out of the year, rent on and off and just watch it's value slowly rise.
I think Exon's suggestion isn't a bad idea, nor is investing in stocks and bonds and so on, though I hear futures are alot riskier. I personally don't like investing in something I can't tangibly see, so it is hard for me to go into the stock market. But if you really want to go the Argentina Real Estate route. I would suggest you clarify which one of the three catagories you fit under.
If you are really serious send me a PM and I can try to give you as much information as I can. I have bought a couple properties so far and I understand the process pretty well. You might also want to read my first apartment buying experience. I will write the other ones soon enough.
About all the economic / political / corruption talk, I would have to say it gives me limp dick so I won't comment on it.
Thanks and good luck Lys,
Bad
An American expat I met driving cab in BA said apartments in Recoleta were $20,000 after the crash and you can get one now for $70,000-$80,000.
Thomaso276
06-02-07, 22:45
Artisttyp: article in the Clarin today about stores in the 500-600 block of Florida selling Copincho products without the official stamp issued by the gov't. They confiscated a bunch of stuff.
I noticed alot of these jackets have many scars and marks as compared to the skins a few years ago when they were very clean. Must be using evey little bit of skin lying around. I walk Corrientes alot but rarley along the side streets, I will check it out next week.
Public transportation works okay but some subway lines have trains from the 50's (or earlier) complete with wood doors, window frames, porcelein style hanging straps and no electronic signage; radar is out at the airports for several weeks, riot at train station the other day; subway workers are going to have another strike next week despite their union accepting the latest contract offer.
My point is there doesn't seem to be any maintenance or growth in the infrastructure needed for a large city. The gov't has increased their tax collection and put the money into free housing, parks and redoing 9 de Julio - cosmetic stuff geared to voters and tourists. Has anyone been inside the municipal hospital on Cordoba? They say it is the premier hospital for the public. It is falling apart. Where is the new public hospital? When will they finish the 5th subway line (I remember my first month here they were working on it) The government raises salaries and then raises the floor for taxes so the workers don't have to pay on their salary.
I guess my basic attitude is; the 3 for 1 exhange should work both ways. What product here (except lobster! Should cost the same or more than in the USA where labor costs, enviornmental costs, insurance costs, etc. are much higher.
After 5 years of growth and a retreat from the international community there should have been more investment and less "we go on vacation for the month of January." Maybe then the schools would have had gas this past week during the cold weather.
Of course the majority of folks I encounter or pass on the street here in centro are educated and well-mannered. I do not go to soccer games, La Plata, Moreno, Merlo, Quilmes or some of the other places that are captured so elegently on the morning news. I know every country has these problems, the US more than most, but to think that all is well here may be off target. Gov't says unemployment is about 11 % - so it is probably higher.
I know that right after the crash things were extremely cheap, but one year after that inflation was 4% and I felt things were priced correctly, I just don't see it now.
It will all work out again, Argentina has proven that over and over.
So what the Fuck are You doing in the DR Sidney.
Exon
So what the Fuck are You doing in the DR Sidney.
ExonExon,
There is something very specific about the women of the DR that Sidney likes and can't get here in BA.
If you can get him to post just one photo of just one of his girlfriends, then you'd understand his motivation. Of course, you'd also understand the motivation for the rest of us to stay here.
Thanks,
Jackson
An American expat I met driving cab in BA said apartments in Recoleta were $20,000 after the crash and you can get one now for $70,000-$80,000.Hi Jack 24,
I'd have to disagree with your cab driver. I came to BA just a couple of months after the crash specifically looking to buy an apartment, and specifically in Recoleta. (Exon isn't the only forum member who visited Argentina regularly before the devaluation) My assumption at the time, having looked at apartments before the devaluation, was that I would then be able to purchase a 100,000 peso apartment for approximately $33,000 USD. Not.
First, I discovered that all the properties that had been generally advertised and listed in pesos were, in the minds of the owners, actually pesos or dollars, both being equal at the time. However, after the devaluation, the owners quickly changed their stance. I made several offers and talked directly to several owners, and their position was universal, something along the lines of "My property was worth $100,000 dollars before the devaluation, and it's still worth $100,000 dollars now. The value of the peso is irrelevant."
Second, I learned that because very few owners had mortgages to pay on their properties, and thus had little carrying costs, and thus there were very few motivated sellers. For sure, some owners panicked and sold their properties for 80-90% of their pre-devaluation USD value, but most Argentine owners, having survived previous economic meltdowns and also suffering from garden-variety Argentina pride, simply decided that they would wait out the crisis with their property priced at the original pre-devaluation price. Ultimately, they were correct.
As for me, I determined that monthly rents, at an international low of 1/3 of a percent of the value, to be a better deal. Even today I am renting a $100,000 apartment in Recoleta for just 1/2 a percent of it's value per month, and I still think that's the best deal going in BA.
Thanks,
Jackson
I found the article in yesterdays clarin about carpincho. It mainly talked about stores lacking the goverment stamp and the illegal hunting of the animal.
I appreciate the heads up. I made sure today that mine was real and it is.
The comment Tomaso made about shotty worksmanship is very true. The leather is great but the production often lacks. In my opinion I think mexico does way better leather work.
The Impossible has just happend, I'm in total agreement with Jackson.
But lets just supose I wanted to throw in the towel here in "Sex Prison" and move to Buenos Aires full time and become an American Porteno.
First I'd rent a place for a year too get my feet on the ground in Argentina.
I'd use that year to check out the whole country, not just B. A.
Assuming I finally decided on Buenos Aires, then I'd look at neighborhoods, Palermo, Belgrano, Vencenite Lopez, Tigre, even Pilar and live at the counrty club in a real American style house. Most Mongers that post have never heard of Pilar, its beautiful and "Classy".
There no way in Fuck I'd live in the Micro Center or Capital Federal proper. The place is just to busy and too congested with too many people for me. Its good for us the the visiting Monger cause the action is their, but not a place to live the day to day life.
Next I'd do just as the wealthy Porteno's do. I'd have my "Faviorata" move into my house, not my apartment. Then I'd set up my regular Mistress in some sort of Studio apartment. For varrity I'd use the internet and private apartments and clubs.
Theres plenty of Pussy in Argentina and all of it is willing to commute for a few extra peso's.
Even still I don't think I'd ever buy in Argentina.
Assets run in cycles in various economies the world over. As an example before 9-11 we had the biggest market bubble in history, after a huge stock market crash. To recover from that the "Fed" dropped real interest rates to the floor in an effort to rejuvenate the econmony. The result was investors saw an almost unlimited supply of cheap money and started using it to buy real estate on the cheap since there were no returns in stocks or bonds. That resulted in the largest appreciation in real estate the American economy has ever seen.
Now the air has gone out of that bubble and both stocks and bonds are back in favor with stocks at an all time high and interest rates rising. And guess what, now real estate is in the "Dog House". The same will happen in Argentina.
Where I'm going with this is why gamble and how much more money are you going to make by taking that gamble on Argentine real estate, using all cash mind you.
Again using the $100,000 figure I can get anyone a sure safe bet of 5%. Thats $5,000 per year to pay rent with. But taking on just a little risk, (a lot less risky than Argentine real estate) I'll get you 7% or 8% , or $7,000 to $8,000 per year for rent. As an example I bought some Calpine "Junk Bonds" that have returned 50% in 18 months. The opportunites are out there but you need capital to excute on them when the time comes. Therefore I don't want capital tied up in assets I can rent for less than the cost of capital, (the cost of capital is roughly 5% today) plus then I have access to the Capital when the right asset comes along to invest in.
I love Argentina, its a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
Exon
It's funny how fast the topic quickly changed from " Quality of life in BA ", to " Why not to buy in BA ". I have said this before. We have heard all the pros and cons endlessly. I for one think investing in real estate isn't for everyone. But you can make good returns with real estate. As with everything in life, I think everyone needs to do their own research.
The one thing I would bring up regarding Jackson's remarks is this: I can understand someone like Ex not wanting to invest in BA real estate, since he clearly states he wouldn't want to live here, therefore there would be no point, but for someone who is planning on living here, the only thing I can say is prices will always go up. No matter what, the price of property today will always be higher 5 years from now.
About living in the provinces, I would probably advise against it, I am told the provinces of Buenos Aires are some of the most dangerous parts of all Argentina. Home invasions, car jacking, armed robbery and so on. Though the " country clubs " do offer some safety, the minute you drive out of there you are suseptible to all kinds of car related homicides and robberies. But if you really want to go all Argentine upper crust, spend a kool $20,000 US minimum getting your car kevlar'd up.
Besides, I personally love the convenience of traveling from country to country and only having to worry about a condo as opposed to an entire house I must leave under someone elses care. But hey that's just me.
Good luck,
Bad
StrayLight
06-04-07, 00:07
Business mentality is creepy, special prices for foreigners are always lurking. You know, I was watching "West Side Story" tonight, and during one of the scenes it struck me that we're probably not getting any more dinged here as foreigners than the millions of immigrants who arrived in the U. S. over the years got dinged there. Sad, but probably true.
Personally, I don't perceive too much of a double standard in pricing. On the occasions that it does happen, I just try to chalk it up to "the gringo tax" that I'm paying to live here.
''prices will always go up. No matter what, the price of property today will always be higher 5 years from now.'' Gosh, I've heard this many times before! Most remembered is from Japanese investors in our hedge fund in 1990: ''We only buy, we never sell''!Greetings guys,
Thanks Sid. It needed to be said. However, I actually agree with both you and Bad, and I'll be very blunt about my strategy, which is to accumulate cash and wait until Argentina's next economic crisis to buy a property I want to keep. In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy relatively low rental costs on some very nice properties (the Junin apartment, The Mansion, my new building in Recoleta, etc.) while basking in my cash liquidity.
Thanks,
Jackson
You know, I was watching "West Side Story" tonight, and during one of the scenes it struck me that we're probably not getting any more dinged here as foreigners than the millions of immigrants who arrived in the U. S. Over the years got dinged there. Sad, but probably true.
Personally, I don't perceive too much of a double standard in pricing. On the occasions that it does happen, I just try to chalk it up to "the gringo tax" that I'm paying to live here.I agree with your statement and I think it's still happening in the USA, with the immigrants from Cuba, Mexico, and other countries in the world. They have no money but they have labour which after all is money as well.
Anyway, I believe the gringo tax is in fact the "knowledge tax" many argentines pay as well when they buy anything or they need anything as soon as possible.
''prices will always go up. No matter what, the price of property today will always be higher 5 years from now.'' Gosh, I've heard this many times before! Most remembered is from Japanese investors in our hedge fund in 1990: ''We only buy, we never sell''!It's true that another crisis can hit Argentina, but certanly, no one knows exactly when is that. I understand what Bad said, and matches perfectly with Jackson's statement:
Second, I learned that because very few owners had mortgages to pay on their properties, and thus had little carrying costs, and thus there were very few motivated sellers. For sure, some owners panicked and sold their properties for 80-90% of their pre-devaluation USD value, but most Argentine owners, having survived previous economic meltdowns and also suffering from garden-variety Argentina pride, simply decided that they would wait out the crisis with their property priced at the original pre-devaluation price. Ultimately, they were correct.No matter if real estate goes down, it will rise again, and eventually, all real estate in major cities will rise. The difference is: with 100k you are able to buy a nice apartment in BA, a nice city. And it's all yours, you don't have any debt and taxes are minimal. You can buy in NY too, but you must make money every month to pay the mortgage, or you can buy in a tiny small town. And that's just personal choice.
2003, 2004 was good to buy, 2005 decent, 2006 was risky, 2007 is stupid.
If you spend over 100k on a appartment you should have some kind of relation (wife, kid, company, job) to buy otherwise you are flat out stupid.
I guess I can understand what you are saying Jackson and it makes sense to wait for a prime property at a prime price.
I don't think calling people names for making purchases you don't agree with is called for on this forum. But I guess we all find ways to express our own personal discontent.
Good Luck,
Bad
I was there at the depths of the 2002 crisis, I'll be damned if I didn't pass up a chance to buy a place that's much nicer than the Mansion (in Palermo Chico, if memory serves - a little neighborhood on the north side of Libertador that has a lot of diplomatic residences) that was for sale for US$500,000. If it's for sale now, it has surely doubled in price. Of course, the little fact that I didn't have a spare half million dollars in cash laying around also contributed to my decision - very hard to buy places in this country on credit. There were some outstanding possibilities. There will be again.
Jackson's thoughts on this subject are exactly my own - in fact I think we thrashed this subject out between us back during the meltdown and reached the conclusions that he makes here. Jackson, did you ever see that place I was thinking about buying?
Another remark regarding the quality of life in BA it's about the people's mentality. Freedom of speech, as well as openess it's a good thing about Argentina, as you know, having a lover and a bulo is not censored by the society (while you do it with discretion) having multiple girls (again, being discrete) it's ok. No one will call the police and tell them his neighbor has a working girl in his apartment (again, discretely) So BA has chica-boliches inside of their classier neighborhoods like the recoleta in fact Black is crossing the street from the alvear hotel.
BA is a city with a big ratio of love hotels, and that is because people have extra-marital sex (this of course inlcludes singles) BA it's also known for having a huge activity of group sex in the specialized clubs (swinger clubs in BA, but not the same than the wife-swapping american version) also, BA it's a gay friendly city, personally I remark I don't support gays and I just don't like them, but it's important to menction that people is open-minded. Again, with discretion, since I have never seen two (or more) male kissing each other in public on the streets, as I have seen it in South Beach, Miami, which, in my opinion is disgusting. Also, disgusting is seeing those cheap street walkers you see in BA only in the dark night in the worst corners of the uglier barrios. Censorship overlooks a lot of things they wouldn't in other cities in the world.
Non sex-worker woman sexually active are very open in comparision to other south american countries, BUT, they are not as feminist as they are in the northen hemisphere which results in a great blend of personality.
Buenos Aires demonstrated that Male have different and higher sexual neccesities and woman respected. That's quality of life!
Jackson,
Am I then correct in deducing from your post on 6/3 that directly after the crash there was suprisingly little value to be found. It seems to me after following this thread that the sterotypical present 100K USD apartment has been similarily priced before, during & after the crash. Could this really be the case?
My motivation to spend said 100k on an example apartment would be to firstly have a place of my own to enjoy while visiting BA. I would probably turn it over to one of those rental agencies that I've used in the past and for them to rent it out as much as possible to hopefully recieve enough income to help me a little while I would hopefully erase the necessary stateside borrowings over the next few years.
My most important consideration in purhasing would be to have a home in a place I love that would hopefully have accrued significantly in value by the time I'm able to reside there full time after my stint is completed here in "Sex Prison" (12-15 more years)
Would such aspirations be pure folly?
StrayLight
06-05-07, 21:18
My most important consideration in purhasing would be to have a home in a place I love that would hopefully have accrued significantly in value by the time I'm able to reside there full timeWhen I was looking at apartment a few years back, my realtor would make a special point of saying that certain places -- the Island, for instance -- were good investments. Finally I asked her what constituted a "good investment." She said, "You won't lose your money."
Since for me the purchase of real property has never been primarily an "investment," I didn't particularly give it much thought. But the message -- at least at that time, and from that realtor -- was that real estate "investing" in Buenos Aires should be thought of in terms of not losing money, not in terms of getting a healthy appreciation in property value.
Jackson am I then correct in deducing from your post on 6/3 that directly after the crash there was suprisingly little value to be found. It seems to me after following this thread that the sterotypical present 100K USD apartment has been similarily priced before, during & after the crash. Could this really be the case?
My motivation to spend said 100k on an example apartment would be to firstly have a place of my own to enjoy while visiting BA. I would probably turn it over to one of those rental agencies that I've used in the past and for them to rent it out as much as possible to hopefully recieve enough income to help me a little while I would hopefully erase the necessary stateside borrowings over the next few years.
My most important consideration in purhasing would be to have a home in a place I love that would hopefully have accrued significantly in value by the time I'm able to reside there full time after my stint is completed here in "Sex Prison" (12-15 more years)
Would such aspirations be pure folly?Just ask around and get more opinions. I don't think its wise to buy right now. You can always rent for a while and see what happens after the presidential elections.
My 2 cents.;)
Jackson,
Am I then correct in deducing from your post on 6/3 that directly after the crash there was suprisingly little value to be found. It seems to me after following this thread that the sterotypical present 100K USD apartment has been similarily priced before, during & after the crash. Could this really be the case?
My motivation to spend said 100k on an example apartment would be to firstly have a place of my own to enjoy while visiting BA. I would probably turn it over to one of those rental agencies that I've used in the past and for them to rent it out as much as possible to hopefully recieve enough income to help me a little while I would hopefully erase the necessary stateside borrowings over the next few years.
My most important consideration in purhasing would be to have a home in a place I love that would hopefully have accrued significantly in value by the time I'm able to reside there full time after my stint is completed here in "Sex Prison" (12-15 more years)
Would such aspirations be pure folly?Greetings Conchuir,
After the devaluation there was value to be found in the BA had suddenly become a very cheap city to live in, but the devaluation did not lead to a wave of discounted property prices. In fact, property owners and their agents began touting Argentina property to foreigners by comparing the prices for property in BA to other major cities of the world, which of course made BA properties appear undervalued, and which of course had no relevance to the issue but did induce many "investors" to buy here.
I predict that in Argentina's next great economic collapse will be different in that there will many suddenly panicky foreigner owners who will lack the staying power of the experienced Porteno owners and instead look to sell out at what will then be truly bargain prices. I give it 3 to 8 years, probably shortly after the Kirchner administration leaves power.
In the mean time, I will continue to enjoy bargain-basement rental rates.
Buying a property as a place to live is completely different than buying on as an investment.
Thanks,
Jackson
Jackson,
Am I then correct in deducing from your post on 6/3 that directly after the crash there was suprisingly little value to be found. It seems to me after following this thread that the sterotypical present 100K USD apartment has been similarily priced before, during & after the crash. Could this really be the case?
My motivation to spend said 100k on an example apartment would be to firstly have a place of my own to enjoy while visiting BA. I would probably turn it over to one of those rental agencies that I've used in the past and for them to rent it out as much as possible to hopefully recieve enough income to help me a little while I would hopefully erase the necessary stateside borrowings over the next few years.
My most important consideration in purhasing would be to have a home in a place I love that would hopefully have accrued significantly in value by the time I'm able to reside there full time after my stint is completed here in "Sex Prison" (12-15 more years)
Would such aspirations be pure folly?I would say 12-15 years is a long time frame and I don't think if you don't live full-time in BA its not worth to buy. You are probally better off renting (that leaves you with no fixed costs as well)
Greetings Conchuir,
After the devaluation there was value to be found in the BA had suddenly become a very cheap city to live in, but the devaluation did not lead to a wave of discounted property prices. In fact, property owners and their agents began touting Argentina property to foreigners by comparing the prices for property in BA to other major cities of the world, which of course made BA properties appear undervalued, and which of course had no relevance to the issue but did induce many "investors" to buy here.
I predict that in Argentina's next great economic collapse will be different in that there will many suddenly panicky foreigner owners who will lack the staying power of the experienced Porteno owners and instead look to sell out at what will then be truly bargain prices. I give it 3 to 8 years, probably shortly after the Kirchner administration leaves power.
In the mean time, I will continue to enjoy bargain-basement rental rates.
Buying a property as a place to live is completely different than buying on as an investment.
Thanks,
JacksonI would predict there is another crisis in 2008 or 2009. I think it can't be avoided.
Argentina curently lives on a commoties bubble, but prices of Grain, mais and Soja have never been higher and should come down soon especially if there will be a (soft) landing of the American economy. Meat can't be exported, construction is down for 9 straights months, tourism with the high inflation will soon decline and gas and oil soon need to be imported instead of begin exported. This last thing will mean prices have to raise, thus raising inflation even more.
Kirchner will probally get a big mandate (60-70% of the votes) and that will mean that prices will increase and corruption will be on the raise. It has happend before and it will happen again.
I would say just like the world bank there will be some sort of crash in either 2008 or 2009.
Jackson, Redondo, Straylight etc:
Sincere thanks for your sound opinions and advice. Obviously I need to continue to rent desirable apartments for my visits over the coming years, thus avoiding the headaches of non-resident ownership while waiting patiently to see what the "lay of the Land" is in regards to property purchase when the time comes for me to cash in my paltry stateside chips and make the "big move". It seems like there is a fair chance that one might find a suitable bargain at any given time on 3-4 year cycles.
It appears that you all feel that Argentina's economically volitile tendencies are set to continue into the future. These tendencies after all are what make Argentina "ARGENTINA".
Thanks again to why'all for helping me reach this decision. And always remember that if BA property values do indeed escalate significantly over the next 3 years, then one of my future trips to BA will be entirely dedicated to hunting each of you down individually. You don't want your international obituaries to divulge your cause of death and your whereabouts when it occured!
Thanks again Lads.
CONCHUIR
Bairespirata
06-06-07, 22:23
K, who's mentor was Roberto Lavagna invented a very offensive economic strategy. As long as the reserves in $US are increasing, inflation is not a problem. Argentina gains a lot more from this strategy than controlling inflation.
When the ARS no longer will attract the market, then it's time to end this strategy. It should mean increasing the interest rates and the need to keep a high public surplus during a business cycle.
Argentina will then suffer from a normal recession, but will have so much reserves in $US so the economy will both halt inflation and no speculation against the country will have success.
I predict that Argentina, with it's new LA developed countries; Brazil Colombia, Chile and Mexico will continue to have economical progress.
The European Union wants co-operation. So do the US, but on the surface both the latin countries and the US are forced to play "poker". They need each other. The best example is Venezuela. The major pat of their oil-eport goes to the US. The major part of industrail investments comes from the US, especially in the oil-business.
K, Lavagna, Macri and Carrio, etc. Have a huge task in front of them, Who wants to invest in ARG long-term? How can they bring back a major part of the $US135 bllions that Argentines put in Swiss account during the 90's? (Almost equal to the the amount of the default)
Saludos M
Hi Jack 24,
I'd have to disagree with your cab driver. I came to BA just a couple of months after the crash specifically looking to buy an apartment, and specifically in Recoleta. (Exon isn't the only forum member who visited Argentina regularly before the devaluation) My assumption at the time, having looked at apartments before the devaluation, was that I would then be able to purchase a 100,000 peso apartment for approximately $33,000 USD. Not.
First, I discovered that all the properties that had been generally advertised and listed in pesos were, in the minds of the owners, actually pesos or dollars, both being equal at the time. However, after the devaluation, the owners quickly changed their stance. I made several offers and talked directly to several owners, and their position was universal, something along the lines of "My property was worth $100,000 dollars before the devaluation, and it's still worth $100,000 dollars now. The value of the peso is irrelevant."
Second, I learned that because very few owners had mortgages to pay on their properties, and thus had little carrying costs, and thus there were very few motivated sellers. For sure, some owners panicked and sold their properties for 80-90% of their pre-devaluation USD value, but most Argentine owners, having survived previous economic meltdowns and also suffering from garden-variety Argentina pride, simply decided that they would wait out the crisis with their property priced at the original pre-devaluation price. Ultimately, they were correct.
As for me, I determined that monthly rents, at an international low of 1/3 of a percent of the value, to be a better deal. Even today I am renting a $100,000 apartment in Recoleta for just 1/2 a percent of it's value per month, and I still think that's the best deal going in BA.
Thanks,
JacksonThanks for your input. I thought the guy knew what he was talking about. I've learned a lot from this thread.
K, who's mentor was Roberto Lavagna invented a very offensive economic strategy. As long as the reserves in $US are increasing, inflation is not a problem. Argentina gains a lot more from this strategy than controlling inflation.
When the ARS no longer will attract the market, then it's time to end this strategy. It should mean increasing the interest rates and the need to keep a high public surplus during a business cycle.
Argentina will then suffer from a normal recession, but will have so much reserves in $US so the economy will both halt inflation and no speculation against the country will have success.
I predict that Argentina, with it's new LA developed countries; Brazil Colombia, Chile and Mexico will continue to have economical progress.
The European Union wants co-operation. So do the US, but on the surface both the latin countries and the US are forced to play "poker". They need each other. The best example is Venezuela. The major pat of their oil-eport goes to the US. The major part of industrail investments comes from the US, especially in the oil-business.
K, Lavagna, Macri and Carrio, etc. Have a huge task in front of them, Who wants to invest in ARG long-term? How can they bring back a major part of the $US135 bllions that Argentines put in Swiss account during the 90's? (Almost equal to the the amount of the default)
Saludos MFirst it doesnt make sense to have Argentina in the same sentence as Brazil. They are completly uncomparable.
Second there is no investment worth talking of in Argentina. Argentina is not a investor friendly country and will never be.
Third, capital flight does still happen and will increase a lot if the economy goes through a rough spell.
Fourth, now there is work for an Argentine, but this can easily change and with the amount of Argentine nationals abroad and dual-nationalities in Argentina there will be an enourmos brain-drain again, just like in 1999 to 2004. Many Argentines are in the process of getting dual-nationality and in most cases its not hard for them to get it and it only makes them more likely to leave.
Greatly informative thread guys! Learned a few things about this fine city of Buenos Aires. But I still have some questions. I am considering spending a lengthy time in a latin country next year. I'm hesitating between 2 countries right now: Cuba and Argentina. I'd appreciate if the Argentina experts could answer some of the questions I have:
A) I'm planning on staying up to 6 months in Argentina. I have a canadian passport. What's the maximum amount of time I can stay in Argentina?
B) I'd want to enroll in a local university to improve my spanish. As a foreigner, is it easy to enroll for a language course? If yes, which university / school would be best? What's the cost like for a spanish course?
C) Safety-wise, how safe is Argentina / Buenos Aires?
D) Which city would you recommend for me to stay there during my stay? And which part of B. A. would you recommend as being the better one to stay in terms of location, safety and cost?
E) Is it easy to rent an appartment for 3-5 months in B. A. If yes, what is the price I should be expecting to pay for rent?
F) Last but definitely not least, which city would be best for mongering, both pros and non-pros?
G) If anyone who is familiar with both Cuba and Argentina could kindly do a comparaison of these 2 countries on the points I'm interested, I'd be truly grateful.
Cheers.
Greatly informative thread guys! Learned a few things about this fine city of Buenos Aires. But I still have some questions. I am considering spending a lengthy time in a latin country next year. I'm hesitating between 2 countries right now: Cuba and Argentina. I'd appreciate if the Argentina experts could answer some of the questions I have:
A) I'm planning on staying up to 6 months in Argentina. I have a canadian passport. What's the maximum amount of time I can stay in Argentina?
B) I'd want to enroll in a local university to improve my spanish. As a foreigner, is it easy to enroll for a language course? If yes, which university / school would be best? What's the cost like for a spanish course?
C) Safety-wise, how safe is Argentina / Buenos Aires?
D) Which city would you recommend for me to stay there during my stay? And which part of be. A. Would you recommend as being the better one to stay in terms of location, safety and cost?
E) Is it easy to rent an appartment for 3-5 months in be. A. If yes, what is the price I should be expecting to pay for rent?
F) Last but definitely not least, which city would be best for mongering, both pros and non-pros?
G) If anyone who is familiar with both Cuba and Argentina could kindly do a comparaison of these 2 countries on the points I'm interested, I'd be truly grateful.
Cheers.Uh, hold on, it is Saturday and I have alot of things to do, but I will sit down and address all these questions later today. In the meantime, a review of the Forum might answer some of them for you beforehand. Let me know please so I know when to terminate my research. Also, visa / stay issues depend on where the fuck you are from, so more info is necessary.
Thank you for your help, much appreciated.:)
I will definitely read and browse the forum for answers to some of my questions. I am from Canada. Again, thanks to you and anyone for your tips and feedbacks.:)
A) 3 months after which you need to leave the country and come back.
B) Yes it is easy, hourly rate for a private lesson is normally around 5 US an hour.
C) Pretty safe if you don't do stupid things.
D) Most foreigners stay in Recoleta, Palermo and Belgrano. That is probally a bit more expensive then most other parts.
E) Around 600 to 800 dollars all in if you stay in the 3 zonas named.
F) Probally Buenos Aires with trips to other cities on Friday and Saturday.
G) What I heard is that in Cuba most girl are dark skinned and all hookers. You can probally bone a girl for a lipstick or a chocolate.
Thomaso276
06-25-07, 17:23
Okay, this morning I had to get up real early for some personal business at the Hospital Rivadavia (blood test) Took the 59 bus to get there by 6 for an alleged appointment at 7 am.
About 75 people waiting in line before the doors open at 7 am (we are around # thirty) Follow the crowd in and find out that we need to go through the courtyard to a waiting area in the back. We lose the crowd who must be waiting for different tests. Now its fukin cold this morning so we enter the small room an pull a number. There is no heat in this waiting room, fuckin wild cats are going in and out, paint peeling off walls and ceilings. Sit and wait (not too many people) and two ladies come out to take everyone's paperwork. They are dressed for winter because there is no heat on their side of the window either. I took a little stroll around the grounds. The place is another example of crumbling infrastructure. The gardens are all dead, garbage all over, PVC pipe holding things together, metal plates over holes in sidewalks, broken cement and paint from the 50's, absolutely minimal lighting on the grounds. This is a city operated hospital.
Ladies behind the window hand people empty plastic soda and water bottles from a cabinet for their pee sample (would you like a Pepsi or 7 UP residue in your sample sir? I guess they have a real good way of sanitizing them so the test is accurate! Only one lady came in with a storebought container from Farmacity ensuring her test results should be okay.
Sign says they start extraccions at 7 30 am until 8 30 am, so naturally at 8:15 they open another room and we all shuffle in where there are about 7 staff and a long table. They proceed to bang out twenty people in about 10 minutes and then shut down.
Time for their two hour break I guess. Another reason to always carry private health insurance.
CarneValistico
07-12-07, 16:21
Well, looking through the various thread I spend time reading the posts in here.
Regarding the posts of Exon, and Jackson (funny both end with " on ", are they twins? Lol) it turns out that all newbies as well as experienced BA mongers - thinking of buying a real estate, should keep their " powder " dry.
Exon had a nice to do list about what he would do IF he would settle down in BA. I have to say that it is a charming description how to make yourself comfortable in BA, esp. Setting the Favorita in the house and the misstress in the studio. Jesus, I laughed my ass off. But something makes me believe that Exon will move permanently to BA sooner or later. Come on man, you have the BA virus allready!
But behind all the jokes and serious advices as well, there is a risk to buy now, when the new crisis is waiting around the corner. I mean, what Exon describes with the words " get the feet on the ground in BA and look around " is the best advice of all. I am seriously planing to settle down in BA, not in a rush, just finish some contracts, avoid new bigger things and slowly but surely arrive there and doing nothing for a while could be also an option. I mean nearly nothing;-)
CarneValistico,
Trust me I will never move full time to Buenos Aires, the old saying, "Its a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live their" holds true with me. I'll keep my US Dollars in the USA and take my chances here. Not in a foreign country where I don't speak the language, really don't know the customs, with a political system rife with corrpution. Moreover, with inflation running 20% or more it won't be long before most of us can't afford to monger their. Prices have doubled in the last 5 years. "Hide and watch", see what happens after next Octobers election, you'll see!
I own all the real estate I want too here in the USA. With the exception of a warehouse I'm in the market place for. And I'm not buying any property down their. The place is way over built with beautiful brand new apartment buildings standing vacant, There all over town. Next time any of you go to Hugo's look across the street, one of the most beautiful new buildings I've seen in be. A. Its been vacant for over a year since it was build. Just one example out of hundreds more.
Jackson probably has the right idea, wait 5 or 6 years until theres "Blood in the Street", (just an expression) then you buy something. The real estate ression in Argentina has already started, its just that most people don't reconize it yet. Why employ capital in an unliquid when you can rent for less than the cost of capital.
All that being said, I love Argentina and I'm fortunate since I can jump on a plane anytime I want for a mire $1,200 bucks, (chump change for me) and be their anytime I want. And if I ever changed my mind, I'd cut a "deep deal" on a long trem lease with options to re-new and use the income off my US assets to finance the deal. That way I could alway "Walk Away" from the deal with very little loss if I ever had to return to the USA unexpectedly.
Nothing in life lasts for ever and the party in Buenos Aires is no exception. There will come a time and its not that far off when you'll be looking at prices similar to 2001, then see how well you like it.
Exon
CarneValistico
07-12-07, 20:48
Wise words Exon,
I remember the situation when we had 1996 - 2000, allmost all building companies were so busy and fully booked that the market overheated and later - even untill now - many buildings, of all kinds, are still empty.
Result: oversuply, rent per m2 crashed down in Berlin for about 80% and still remains on this level, and 100s of building companies shut down.
So if this is going to happen in BA, than you are right with your metapher " blood on the street ", than you can get a real bargain.
Have a great evening,
Carnevalistico
Precocious One
11-27-07, 02:06
The Impossible has just happend, I'm in total agreement with Jackson.
But lets just supose I wanted to throw in the towel here in "Sex Prison" and move to Buenos Aires full time and become an American Porteno.
First I'd rent a place for a year too get my feet on the ground in Argentina.
I'd use that year to check out the whole country, not just be. A.
Assuming I finally decided on Buenos Aires, then I'd look at neighborhoods, Palermo, Belgrano, Vencenite Lopez, Tigre, even Pilar and live at the counrty club in a real American style house. Most Mongers that post have never heard of Pilar, its beautiful and "Classy".
There no way in Fuck I'd live in the Micro Center or Capital Federal proper. The place is just to busy and too congested with too many people for me. Its good for us the the visiting Monger cause the action is their, but not a place to live the day to day life.
Next I'd do just as the wealthy Porteno's do. I'd have my "Faviorata" move into my house, not my apartment. Then I'd set up my regular Mistress in some sort of Studio apartment. For varrity I'd use the internet and private apartments and clubs.
Theres plenty of Pussy in Argentina and all of it is willing to commute for a few extra peso's.
Even still I don't think I'd ever buy in Argentina.
Assets run in cycles in various economies the world over. As an example before 9-11 we had the biggest market bubble in history, after a huge stock market crash. To recover from that the "Fed" dropped real interest rates to the floor in an effort to rejuvenate the econmony. The result was investors saw an almost unlimited supply of cheap money and started using it to buy real estate on the cheap since there were no returns in stocks or bonds. That resulted in the largest appreciation in real estate the American economy has ever seen.
Now the air has gone out of that bubble and both stocks and bonds are back in favor with stocks at an all time high and interest rates rising. And guess what, now real estate is in the "Dog House". The same will happen in Argentina.
Where I'm going with this is why gamble and how much more money are you going to make by taking that gamble on Argentine real estate, using all cash mind you.
Again using the $100,000 figure I can get anyone a sure safe bet of 5%. Thats $5,000 per year to pay rent with. But taking on just a little risk, (a lot less risky than Argentine real estate) I'll get you 7% or 8% , or $7,000 to $8,000 per year for rent. As an example I bought some Calpine "Junk Bonds" that have returned 50% in 18 months. The opportunites are out there but you need capital to excute on them when the time comes. Therefore I don't want capital tied up in assets I can rent for less than the cost of capital, (the cost of capital is roughly 5% today) plus then I have access to the Capital when the right asset comes along to invest in.
I love Argentina, its a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
Exon"I'll get you 7% or 8% ,"
Bold, bold statement. I realize this was made back in June before the current credit crisis, but many of us feel that there is no way possible any of the FCB's are going to be able to sustain higher rates let alone current rates. There are global asset bubbles everywhere that are currently unwinding. The FCB's are going to trash cash in their attempt to sustain the prices of overvalued assets in RE, equities and bonds. That safe five percent ROI you were talking about may be twice what treasury bills offer one year from now.
Inflate or die.
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