View Full Version : Safety in Argentina
First, I'm glad I can actually start a new thread. Thanks, Jackson.
OK, so I was linked to this urban survival guide on another site that I visit frequently. In this survival guide, a Spaniard living in Argentina goes on about how bad the living situation in Argentina is due to the economic collapse of 2001. Can any of you guys confirm this?
He says rapes are quite common, along with hands and fingers being chopped off, murderers who are never caught because police are inept, demands for tips or bribery, and that most of the population is as poor as other Latin countries. There's more but you get the idea.
So how dangerous is it down there? He says he's leaving immediately.
Here is the URL to the page in particular. His name is FerFal:
www.frugalsquirrels.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=044387;p=1
Please consider taking your time and read the many recent posts concerning this issue, and you will find out, that Buenos Aires is not, repeat NOT a dangerous place. Not more dangerous than London, San Francisco, Berlin, Paris, Barcelona, or any other larger city on the world.
Of course, in any one of the mentioned places there are areas where you certainly don't want to be alone at night (or anytime)
There is certainly more crime here then there was 10 years ago. But in comparison to other country's? The crime rate here is very low. There is more minor problems in my opinion, for example, don't leave your bike in your yard overnight where some one can steal it! Major crimes here get a lot of publicity, because there is so little. Can you imagine a single murder being in the headlines for two weeks in NY unless it was the president? This makes it appear much worse then it really is. I grew up in NY and have lived in Las Vegas, Brazil and CR. I have worked in at least 35 different country's and do not feel as if there is a major problem here. I can't say this is the most crime free country I know, but it is not a major problem. Just use your head! As pointed out by other posters, be aware and take care!
Thank you, Gentlemen. It was really hard for me to believe life was like that down there. Actually it's hard to believe it's like out outside of South Central or East L. A. USA.
Punter 127
06-13-07, 23:22
BA is much safer than Sosua / Cabarete, RD Don't you think it's time for you to start thinking with the big head, and get the hell out of the DR?
WorldTravel69
06-14-07, 07:20
I live in a save area of the U. S. That is bullshit. I live in the S. F. Bay Area. The fucking crime is so fucking bad in the U. S.
I live in the East Bay, I walk down the street at 10-11pm and I am looking over my shoulder.
I just spent three months in B.A. Sometimes drunker than shit walking around B.A. At 5-6am and felt safer than HOME.
I saw chicas walking around at 3-4am in B.A., and nobody messing with them. They would never do that in the U.S.
I would not walk around the Constitucion area at night though.
I met a lot of mongers that were out all night and not one of them said they were fucked with.
You can live much more peaceful in B.A. than the U. S., and the pussy is friendly, legal and cheaper.
Get the fuck out of Dodge. By that meaning the mentally incompetent student that shot all those other students in Virginia. The government did not put him on a do not sell guns list. If they have one. Any crazy can buy a gun. Something is wrong in this country. Dumb politicians. Who is voting for these Politicians?
I am working on getting out, and so are a lot of the guys I met.
I live in a save area of the U. S. That is bullshit. I live in the S. F. Bay Area. The fucking crime is so fucking bad in the U. S.
I live in the East Bay, I walk down the street at 10-11pm and I am looking over my shoulder.
I just spent three months in be. A. Sometimes drunker than shit walking around be. A. At 5-6am and felt safer than HOME.
I saw chicas walking around at 3-4am in be. A. And nobody messing with them.
They would never do that in the U. S.
I would not walk around the Constitucion area at night though.
I met a lot of mongers that were out all night and not one of them said they were fucked with.
You can live much more peaceful in be. A. Than the U. S. And the pussy is friendly, legal and cheaper.
Get the fuck out of Dodge. By that meaning the mentally incompetent student that shot all those other students in Virginia. The government did not put him on a do not sell guns list. If they have one. Any one can buy a gun. Something is wrong in this country. Dumb politicians. Who is voting for these Politicians?
I am working on getting out, and so is a lot of the guys I met.Nice post WT. All true and more so. Good luck on getting down here permanently. There ain't many mongers at Exedra these days. Besides myself, my buddy Caveman01 and cameo appearences by Jackson, Bacchus9 and Rockin' Robert, americanos are pretty scarce. I don't think we can over emphasize how much safer it is here compared to the states, and lot's of other countries. I agree about the Constitucion area, and La Boca is squirrely also, but what's going on there at night anybody want's to see or do anyway? Even San Telmo is pretty safe as I am out there at night frequently. So, for all you potential BA travelers-don't believe the hysterical crap you hear from some people about crime in BA. Odds are, it's safer here than wherever you are.
Nice post WT. All true and more so. Good luck on getting down here permanently. There ain't many mongers at Exedra these days. Besides myself, my buddy Caveman01 and cameo appearences by Jackson, Bacchus9 and Rockin' Robert, americanos are pretty scarce. I don't think we can over emphasize how much safer it is here compared to the states, and lot's of other countries. I agree about the Constitucion area, and La Boca is squirrely also, but what's going on there at night anybody want's to see or do anyway? Even San Telmo is pretty safe as I am out there at night frequently. So, for all you potential BA travelers-don't believe the hysterical crap you hear from some people about crime in BA. Odds are, it's safer here than wherever you are.Let's not go overboard with the BA love. If you want to compare Recoleta with South Central LA, yes, Buenos Aires is safer. But even the best area of Buenos Aires is not safer than the suburbs or rural areas where I and most Norteamericanos live.
I would never endorse wandering around any area of Buenos Aires late at night alone and would never carry significant amounts of money or credit cards on me. This advice goes double to the typical tourist who doesn't know the difference between San Telmo and Puerto Madero. No, it's not the Wild Wild West, but it's not like walking from your couch to your refrigerator at home, either. People on this board can be and have reported having been robbed, mugged, and pickpocketed in Buenos Aires. One friend to many of us was drugged by a chica and robbed of all his valuable possessions while comatose.
Visiting here is not, repeat not as safe as staying home. Not least of which because when you're in home, you know how to steer clear from potential trouble.
That said, I have visited Buenos Aires something like 12 times in the last six years, have taken standard precautions, and have never had a problem with personal safety.
I would never endorse wandering around any area of Buenos Aires late at night alone and would never carry significant amounts of money or credit cards on me.
Visiting here is not, repeat not as safe as staying home.Gotta disagree with these points. Sure, it depends on where you are coming from in the states. And yes, percentage wise, BA is probably more "dangerous" than some sleepy "burb" in whatever country that burb may be. But maybe to fine tune the debate, what major american city would be less dangerous? Ok, except for Indianapolis.:)
Dogg, the economic geography of Buenos Aires is exactly opposite of the U. S. The best, most upscale, and safest areas in Buenos Aires are downtown. The BsAs "suburbs," by way of contrast, tend to be the poorest, least appealing, and most dangerous areas. Comparing downtown BsAs to the "sleepy suburbs" of the US is exactly the right comparison, I think. Especially since only the biggest fools (er, "most adventurous souls") who visit will be going anywhere out of the Puerto Madero-Recoleta-Palermo-Belgrano axis out into the Porteno 'burbs.
Belgrano is an area that can be considered a BA suburb and it is extremely safe, mostly houses and small apartment blocks and alot of families. This is one of the nicest BA suburbs I have seen. I would also catagorize Las Canitas as a quiet sleepy suburb and La Imprenta also for that matter, these are all some of the safest areas in all of Buenos Aires. Of course if you are talking about the provinces, you could easily draw parallels with the out skirts of any major city in California such as all of Riverside and San Bernardino which have the highest per capita murder rates in all of the USA.
Some people can't seem to fathom the thought that security in the US isn't really as good as they might think it is. Look at the " unscrubbed " crime statistics of any major US city and you will see BA has very little to envy. With that said there are some places you shouldn't be walking around late at night or in the day for that matter, but this can be said of just about any city in the world.
Bottom line is, BA is as safe as any other major city in the world (except maybe some African or Middle Eastern countries and that is due to war, obviously a city in a war torn country wouldn't be so safe) just use common sense and ask about the " bad " neighborhoods and you should be allright. Also try not to be overly flashy in the way you dress or act and you should be more than allright.
Bad
The murder rate in Argentina is higher than in the United States. In 2003 there were 7.5 murders per 100,000 inhabitants in Argentina, and 5.7 in the U.S.
The rate of robbery in Argentina is higher than in the United States. In 2003 there were 1000 robberies per 100,000 inhabitants in Argentina, and 142 in the U.S.
The rate of aggravated assaults in Argentina is higher than in the United States. In 2003 there were 346 incidents per 100,000 inhabitants in Argentina, and 295 in the U.S.
Stats here:
http://www.cejamericas.org/reporte/muestra_pais.php?idioma=ingles&pais=ARGENTIN&tipreport=REPORTE2&seccion=TASADELI
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/index.html
I'm sure that because of reporting differences, the numbers aren't strictly comparable. However, these chestnuts about "dangerous America" and "peaceful Argentina" just don't pan out. The one category where the USA Numbers are reported higher than in Argentina is for rape, which is reported as three times higher in the USA Than in Argentina. So your sphincters are probably 3 times safer in BsAs, boys, unless your name is Exon. (And I'm sure that a lot of what passes for "rape" in an Anglo-Saxon country is counted as "boys being boys" down south of the border.)
As anywhere, if you take reasonable precautions and stay out of the bad areas of Buenos Aires (or Los Angeles), you'll probably not run into trouble.
Murder Rates in Major Cities:
City ( 2002 murders ) (population ) (# murders per 100000 people.)
New Orleans ( 258 ) ( 473681 ) ( 54.5 )
Washington ( 264 ) ( 570898 ) ( 46.2 )
Detroit ( 402 ) ( 925051 ) ( 43.5 )
Baltimore ( 253 ) ( 638614 ) ( 39.6 )
St. Louis ( 111 ) ( 338353 ) ( 32.8 )
Chicago ( 648 ) ( 2886251 ) ( 22.5 )
Philadelphia ( 288 ) ( 1492231 ) ( 19.3 )
Los Angeles ( 654 ) ( 3798981 ) ( 17.2 )
Houston ( 256 ) ( 2009834 ) ( 12.7 )
Boston ( 60 ) ( 589281 ) ( 10.2 )
New York ( 590 ) ( 8084316 ) ( 7.3 )
After reading these stats 7.5 is looking pretty good right about now.
New York City Crime Rate :
( Year ) ( Crimes per person )
2003 ( 1 per 37.36 )
2004 ( 1 per 35.71 )
2005 ( 1 per 34.28 )
FACT: Violent crime is on the rise in the US, read the very same FBI and Justice Department surveys, statistics, and reports to see that violent crime stats are going up around 1.5-2.5 % a year. What does any of this mean? Jack shit , who cares. But it sure pokes holes in your whole crime free wonderland bit. Point is this, people feel safer in their own environment, because it is crime they know and they know where not to go and who not to be around and so on, people will always feel more exposed when traveling, this doesn't mean any single city is more dangerous, it just means the person feels more suseptible to the danger since he doesn't know it, it isn't familiar to him. And no matter what tourists are always more suseptible to crime, since they generally don't know how things work and how things run in a new city, much less a new country. Crime is relative, BA is no crime free wonderland and neither is LA or NYC for that matter, It is all relative. Stay away from the " bad " neighborhoods and try not to look like a clueless " money'd " yohkol and you will be fine.
Good Luck,
Bad
PS, You don't have to believe me look it up on Hunt's reference site
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_08.html
If you look at the major US city statistics on a case by case basis, you will see that most are about the same as any city in Argentina, some with higher rates and some with lower. It is all relative though, look at it yourself.
What's the murder rate in Buenos Aires? That is what you would want to compare those cities to, not the US as a whole. I think the murder rate in rural Chubut is pretty low, just like it is in North Dakota.
The murder rate in Argentina is higher than in the United States. In 2003 there were 7.5 murders per 100,000 inhabitants in Argentina, and 5.7 in the U. S.I see your point. But out of 100,000, two people (although their lives were tragically lost) is insignificant.
Buenos Aires has one of the lowest homicide rates in America (5 p. 100 000, vs. 17 in Mexico City, 60+ in Caracas, 68 in Washington DC)
http://wwwpolcrim.jus.gov.ar/Snic/A%C3%B1o2003/PaisIngles/EnglishCuad12.PDF
Buenos Aires.
Population: 13,827,203
Murders: 1,375
Rate per 100,000: 9.94
BTW, most murders happen in the provinces.
Bad
Rate per 100,000: 9.94
BTW, most murders happen in the provinces.True, most of the murders, robberies, etc. happen outside center city BsAs, just as murder, robbery, etc. is more common in Anacostia than it is in Georgetown (two areas of DC on opposite ends of the socioeconomic scale).
Separate question without starting a new thread, but related to health and safety.
Any of you guys who've been to other countries' major cities know that many of them use leaded (vs US standards unleaded) gasoline, which makes breathing the air a problem for some of us, triggering certain allergic responses we never knew we had.
So the question is: How bad is the smog there? Emissions standards? Leaded or unleaded gas? Diesel?
Separate question without starting a new thread, but related to health and safety.
Any of you guys who've been to other countries' major cities know that many of them use leaded (vs US standards unleaded) gasoline, which makes breathing the air a problem for some of us, triggering certain allergic responses we never knew we had.
So the question is: How bad is the smog there? Emissions standards? Leaded or unleaded gas? Diesel?Buenos Aires ain't Vancouver. Smog levels (mainly from highly polluting buses and cars) are high in downtown (stay 1 hour or so an the corner of Tucuman and Maipú and you will find it for yourself) and in other highly populated neighborhoods, but it never gets over the threshold of the maximum allowable level (Santiago de Chile and Mexico DF are way way worse)
As of fuel, I think that leaded gas isn't produced anywhere anymore in this planet, at least not in Argentina since the mid / late 80s. Diesel is popular, as well as Compressed Natural Gas (GNC in Spanish)
Bring your HEPA filters and disaster-emergency-kit, just in case:-)
Andres
Buenos Aires ain't Vancouver. Smog levels (mainly from highly polluting buses and cars) are high in downtown (stay 1 hour or so an the corner of Tucuman and maipú and you will find it for yourself) and in other highly populated neighborhoods, but it never gets over the threshold of the maximum allowable level (Santiago de Chile and Mexico DF are way way worse)
As of fuel, I think that leaded gas isn't produced anywhere anymore in this planet, at least not in Argentina since the mid / late 80s. Diesel is popular, as well as Compressed Natural Gas (GNC in Spanish)
Bring your HEPA filters and disaster-emergency-kit, just in case:-)
AndresI was just in Costa Rica, and all of the Tourisimo guys (Independent cabs without meters) complain about how bad the car exhaust is. Someone told me it was all leaded gas there. I can't remember.
Another question I have for the Gringos here: Say you spend 3 months in Latin America. Upon your return to the US, when Homeland Security airport agents (formerly known as US Customs) ask you what you were doing while you were away, what do you tell them?
On my last trip to Latin America for 2 wks, I went alone. When I returned, the Customs Agents all interrogated me in a backroom as if I was a drug smuggler, asking what I was doing, who with, if I brought drugs, the ages and names of the girls in the pictures, if they were prostitutes, and they even called up people on the business cards in my wallet for job and character references. They even stabbed open the coffee brick I brought back cause they suspected it might be drug powder. Then they asked to see receipts for hotel room stays. After they X-rayed my bag, they finally let me go.
Now if I am on a 3 month long vacation and staying in my own apartment fucking random girls (which they don't want to hear) what is it I should tell them I've been doing?
Cause apparently if a young guy is traveling alone to latin country he must be some kind of drug smuggler. As if anybody would be dumb enough to risk a 30 yr prison sentence to make some cash. Isn't the trickle coming in by mule a drop in the bucket compared the the amount coming by speedo boat up the coast? Yes, I still have nightmares about this.
I was just in Costa Rica, and all of the Tourisimo guys (Independent cabs without meters) complain about how bad the car exhaust is. Someone told me it was all leaded gas there. I can't remember.
Another question I have for the Gringos here: Say you spend 3 months in Latin America. Upon your return to the US, when Homeland Security airport agents (formerly known as US Customs) ask you what you were doing while you were away, what do you tell them?
On my last trip to Latin America for 2 wks, I went alone. When I returned, the Customs Agents all interrogated me in a backroom as if I was a drug smuggler, asking what I was doing, who with, if I brought drugs, the ages and names of the girls in the pictures, if they were prostitutes, and they even called up people on the business cards in my wallet for job and character references. They even stabbed open the coffee brick I brought back cause they suspected it might be drug powder. Then they asked to see receipts for hotel room stays. After they X-rayed my bag, they finally let me go.
Now if I am on a 3 month long vacation and staying in my own apartment fucking random girls (which they don't want to hear) what is it I should tell them I've been doing?
Cause apparently if a young guy is traveling alone to latin country he must be some kind of drug smuggler. As if anybody would be dumb enough to risk a 30 yr prison sentence to make some cash. Isnt the trickle coming in by mule a drop in the bucket compared the the amount coming by speedo boat up the coast? Yes, I still have nightmares about this.Jesus, do you have waist length long hair and smell of patchouli oil? Nasty story. Do you have any idea why you were targeted? Criminal background? Racial / cultural background? Said something about Dubya wanting to suck your cock? Seriously, you should not have a problem. Fucking a billion gatos in BA is none of their fucking business. Tell 'em any fucking thing you want to tell them. They were getting their rocks off with you for whatever reason.
Jesus, do you have waist length long hair and smell of patchouli oil? Nasty story. Do you have any idea why you were targeted? Criminal background? Racial / cultural background? Said something about Dubya wanting to suck your cock? Seriously, you should not have a problem. Fucking a billion gatos in BA is none of their fucking business. Tell 'em any fucking thing you want to tell them. They were getting their rocks off with you for whatever reason.Well I won't toot my own horn cause then someone will make fun of me and no one will take me seriously. But I did have conjunctivitis resulting in red eyes at the time (which I tried to explain at the second check point to no avail). So at the initial checkpoint he may have pegged me as a drug user. I still look like I am 17 although I am 29, so that may have been part of it also. The rest, I don't know. If I knew why I was targeted... <sigh>
No criminal background or anything like that (you can't get most jobs in my area cause they do background checks), no long hair. I was wearing sunglasses though, and the guy demanded I take them off, but I suspect this is for neuro-linguistic body language purposes. Then again, he may be jealous cause he's a loser who's married to some fat *****.
I'll also add that in 2002 after 911 but before Homeland Security and the TSA I came back from Germany after more than a year in Europe, and when I got back the agent didn't ask one question. There may be some sort of "drug prejudice" towards Latin America. In fact I still had the German visa in my passport, and no one asked about my travel history. They just assumed I was a smuggler. (Another reason why I want to Expat and never come back: US Gov is growing out of control and ever more fascist daily.) Also flew in to the Texas checkpoint, which I will never do again. Maybe FL and NY are better states to fly in through.
Jaimito Cartero
06-16-07, 16:43
I was just in Costa Rica, and all of the Tourisimo guys (Independent cabs without meters) complain about how bad the car exhaust is. Someone told me it was all leaded gas there. I can't remember.My new car in SJO takes unleaded gas, and I can't recall seeing leaded for sale in the last 5 years or so. The downtown areas are super congested, so the while you're waiting in traffic and breathing diesel fumes, it can get bad quite easily.
My new car in SJO takes unleaded gas, and I can't recall seeing leaded for sale in the last 5 years or so. The downtown areas are super congested, so the while you're waiting in traffic and breathing diesel fumes, it can get bad quite easily.Then it must have been the diesel. That's probably just as bad.
Jaimito Cartero
06-16-07, 16:54
If they think you're going out of the country to bang underage chicas they will be on your ass in a second. I believe this is the reason why people have reported them wanting to look at your computer and camera lately.
I traveled extensively in my 20's, and never got hassled. There are certain countries that will trigger a more extensive check. I came back from the Philippines a couple of months ago, and got tagged team by a couple of lady inspectors going through my one carry on bag. I let them go at it, and even let them look at my camera. Chica pictures are a small percentage of the pics on my camera, so they didn't even get to see any of them.
They also went over my passport, and asked about places I had visited. I got some strange questions about South Africa. In the end, no problem, other than missing my tight connection for my domestic ticket.
This was the only the second time in 5 years that I went to secondary, so I don't figure it's too bad. So I figure I have another 350,000 miles to fly before my next inspection.
If I'm asked why I was in a country, I just say that enjoy staying there, and have made friends there. You certainly don't want to lie about why you go there, but "banging all the chicas I can" isn't a good response.
These countries seem to flag extra attention:
Philippines, Holland and Thailand.
If they think you're going out of the country to bang underage chicas they will be on your ass in a second. I believe this is the reason why people have reported them wanting to look at your computer and camera lately.
I traveled extensively in my 20's, and never got hassled. There are certain countries that will trigger a more extensive check. I came back from the Philippines a couple of months ago, and got tagged team by a couple of lady inspectors going through my one carry on bag. I let them go at it, and even let them look at my camera. Chica pictures are a small percentage of the pics on my camera, so they didn't even get to see any of them.
They also went over my passport, and asked about places I had visited. I got some strange questions about South Africa. In the end, no problem, other than missing my tight connection for my domestic ticket.
This was the only the second time in 5 years that I went to secondary, so I don't figure it's too bad. So I figure I have another 350,000 miles to fly before my next inspection.
If I'm asked why I was in a country, I just say that enjoy staying there, and have made friends there. You certainly don't want to lie about why you go there, but "banging all the chicas I can" isn't a good response.
These countries seem to flag extra attention:
Philippines, Holland and Thailand.Well it was Costa Rica, which probably should be included. But the girls were secondary to them. They were looking for drugs, then girls.
But anyhow, if I had friends there, I bet they would ask for names and phone numbers to verify. What then?
Aren't they nosey to ask about your previous travels? You're outside of US soil and they're asking about what you did years ago. Whys that their business? This Gov is getting way too fascist. It seems if you step out of Western Culture it's a huge deal to these people for some reason, like you're stepping out of the matrix and off the beaten track. You're punished for not being like everyone else and sticking to Britain, France and Italy. Pfft.
When I went to Germany, even before I got my visa, the Passport Controlle just stamped my passport and waved me through. They didnt ask questions. When I went to the Czech Rep and back via rented car, on the way back to Germany, my friend and I brought out our blue passports and slowed down for the checkpoint. The guy in the booth just waved us on by and didnt bother to make us stop or stamp it.
But in my own country, I'm treated like a 4th class citizen. Imagine that.
Jaimito Cartero
06-16-07, 17:40
Well it was Costa Rica, which probably should be included. But the girls were secondary to them. They were looking for drugs, then girls.Perhaps you fit their profile, since you look young. I've flown from Costa Rica around 50 times, and have only got an inspection when I was bringing back pineapples or coffee.
I went to Belize with a friend this year, and he looks rather like a Hells Angel member. He was bringing back some smokes for a friend, and had believed the duty free employee that told him that he could bring back 4 cartons under his allowance. I told him that he'd probably have to pay some duty on them. He got sent to secondary, and they searched his bags, while I'm already out of customs, and heading to the next flight.:)
Given the amount of times I've been through AMS, it's surprising that I've never gotten a secondary.
Damn Ty,
Are you sure you last name isn't Escobar or something, I am sorry to say you might want to expect a full body cavity search next time.
What I can advise is, DO NOT take Doggboys advise. Maybe we have all forgotten Dubya's speech a couple years back about the dangers and proliferation of sex tourism and how he was going to "crack down" on sexual tourists. I actually had this conversation with another forum member. Now I don't know if Dubya was just bullshitting everyone as usual, for the benefit of his religious right constituents or if he was really serious. But either way once you get tagged as a sexual tourism " perp ", you should start getting used to intrusive interogations every time you return from a known sex tourism destination.
You are right that some south american countries are flagged as high risk drug havens, such as Colombia, Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador, and don't be surprised if they ask you certain things about your visit if you are coming back alone. They might also have the drug sniffing dogs waiting as you exit the plane, I have seen all of this first hand as well.
I would say simply, download all your pics onto an online hard drive, or better yet email them all to a yahoo account or something and erase your physical memory disks and hard drive, and just tell em you were going as a tourist and name all the local tourist destinations you visited, tell them you were visiting friends and or family, you were looking at possible vacation homes and so on, the list is endless.
Oh and smog in the micro center and on Santa Fe is horrible, the amount of collectivos on Santa Fe is mind boggling. Yet Palermo Las Canitas Puerto Madero and most of the neighborhoods along Libertador are pretty smog free. Buenos Aires has a small smog problem in general and one that can either get better or worse, but compared to other major world capitals it is surprisingly one of the best. Santiago, Lima, Caracas, Mexico City, Los Angeles, NYC are all much worse.
Bad
Ah well, I suppose Bad is right about this. Don't take my advise. Despite all the evidence mounting up, I continue to have a tough time realizing the fascist nature of these assholes. The "sexual tourist" thing was not on my radar. More reason to get the hell out and only go back when it's necessary.
Suerte
Punter 127
06-16-07, 20:01
Maybe we have all forgotten Dubya's speech a couple years back about the dangers and proliferation of sex tourism and how he was going to "crack down" on sexual tourists. I actually had this conversation with another forum member. Now I don't know if Dubya was just bullshitting everyone as usual, for the benefit of his religious right constituents or if he was really serious. But either way once you get tagged as a sexual tourism " perp ", you should start getting used to intrusive interogations every time you return from a known sex tourism destination.
BadI think Bush was speaking of "Child sex tourism", to my knowledge there are no federal laws against "adult prostitution", they are state laws. If that were not the case a lot of guys who go to Nevada and visit "legal" brothels would be in deep shit. You are however subject to "intrusive interogations" anytime you enter the country, they can ask anything they want. Choose your answers carefully to avoid further hassles.
I see your point about the "child sex tourism", but in all honesty, if you actually read on www.whitehouse.gov the presidents full speech to the UN on 2003 and his later statements (all public record) in 2004 and 2006, his remarks run the whole gamut, from child sex tourism, child and adult sex slavery, women trafficking in Eastern Europe and Latin America, with special attention focused on South East Asia, he also discussed american citizens going to international destinations in order to commit acts that in the US are illegal, and how they should be prosecuted for those acts once they return. And the point would be, do you really think the US government differentiates between "child sex tourist" and "sex tourist"? Let's be real, he is going after all sex tourism in general, but from what I have seen so far, all they are doing is building a database with known sex tourists and their destinations, what they will do with that later on is anyone's guess.
They do have the right to ask questions, but when they cross into personal territory that has very little to do with national security and more with general intrusive harrasment I think they are over stepping their boundaries. I see you don't seem to mind them treating you like a drug smuggling phedophile sex tourist every time you come back from Argentina, some people do, especially when they are not.
I would agree with Punter on one thing, choose your answers as honestly and carefully as possible, obviously avoiding all the Madahos and Area VIP chicks you banged on your last trip.
Good Luck.
Bad
I think Bush was speaking of "Child sex tourism", to my knowledge there are no federal laws against "adult prostitution", they are state laws. If that were not the case a lot of guys who go to Nevada and visit "legal" brothels would be in deep shit. You are however subject to "intrusive interogations" anytime you enter the country, they can ask anything they want. Choose your answers carefully to avoid further hassles.They can ask anything they want. But do I have to answer? What if I just say "I was on vacation. I have done nothing illegal."?
Punter 127
06-16-07, 21:35
Let's be real, he is going after all sex tourism in general, but from what I have seen so far, all they are doing is building a database with known sex tourists and their destinations, what they will do with that later on is anyone's guess.Ok let's be real, Bush can say anything, but he has no federal law to hang his hat on when it comes to you seeing a prostitute. Visiting a prostitute is not illegal by federal law. The federal government can not and does not enforce state laws. You could tell them that the purpose of your trip was to visit hookers and all they could do is hassle you, they could not prosecute you. Now I wouldn't do that because it would be just asking for trouble. We have lost a lot of our freedoms in this country, but we have not yet become a communist country, the president can not just make up laws.
I do agree they are building a data base, so this issue is best avoided. If they ask I am on vacation, just R & R, and I don't pay for sex. Short simple direct answers are the order of the day, and if they don't ask, don't tell.
They do have the right to ask questions, but when they cross into personal territory that has very little to do with national security and more with general intrusive harrasment I think they are over stepping their boundaries. I totally agree, and I think they ask some question they don't have a right to ask.
I see you don't seem to mind them treating you like a drug smuggling phedophile sex tourist every time you come back from Argentina, some people do, especially when they are not.Thats total bullshit, I didn't say that, I simple pointed out the law.
the president can not just make up laws. I have to call you on this one Punter, have you ever heard of an Executive Order?
Ok let's be real, Bush can say anything, but he has no federal law to hang his hat on when it comes to you seeing a prostitute.This is very true, and that was my point, we aren't there yet, but I wouldn't bet your house on the fact that they won't do anything with all that data.
We have lost a lot of our freedoms in this country, but we have not yet become a communist country.Well there has never been a communist country, ever, that is a historical fact, any scholar can tell you that. So we don't know what one would look like, what I can say is this, there have been socialist states, well run socialist states and poorly run socialist states, and the only thing worse than a poorly run socialist state is a well run fascist one.
Thats total bullshit, I didn't say that, I simple pointed out the law. I know that obviously, but the same indignation you just felt and expressed is the same that is felt by those poor guys getting harassed at their airports. You just punctuated my point.
Bad
I don't know if I should enter this thread, I want to avoid the politics (I am libertarian, so I despise both sides of the political debate in estados unidos, I don't see any difference in them)
On the topic of safety, I think the key in any travels is to always use common sense, always be aware of your surroundings and don't do anything that would identify you as an easy target. And do not get over confident just because you have been somewhere for a week and have not seen any problems does not mean there aren't any. On the other hand, I should take some of my own advise, as I have in the past been known to be walking in back alleys in Thailand at 2am with no idea which direction to head in, trusting the Thai girl I was following to know her way back to the hotel - probably not a smart thing.
I have been pulled aside a couple times for extra airport checks, but nothing major - the worst screening I ever saw them give a guy was one who started bitching and complaining about how the security was slowing down boarding of the airplane. After he shot his mouth off, everyone else walked through and got to smirk at the A. H. As they pulled him aside for some extensive examination. I did get some funny looks one time when I returned from two weeks in Costa Rica with no luggage - I told the truth (the house I was staying in was broken into and my bag was stolen - luckily not my passport) and they just waved me through.
Punter 127
06-16-07, 22:55
I have to call you on this one Punter, have you ever heard of an Executive Order? Yes I have, and I wonder why Bush hasn't issued such an order if he is so hell-bent on stopping sex tourism. I'm sure you have the answer, would you like to enlighten the rest of us?
This is very true, and that was my point, we aren't there yet, but I wouldn't bet your house on the fact that they won't do anything with all that data. Man you're preaching to the choir here, I want government to have less power not more.
Well there has never been a communist country, ever, that is a historical fact, any scholar can tell you that. So we don't know what one would look like, what I can say is this, there have been socialist states, well run socialist states and poorly run socialist states, and the only thing worse than a poorly run socialist state is a well run fascist one. Socialist states / Communist country call it what you will, bottom line is it ain't free!
I know that obviously, but the same indignation you just felt and expressed is the same that is felt by those poor guys getting harassed at their airports. You just punctuated my point. I didn't feel any indignation, I do when harassed at the border or airport, (and I have been, but that has not been limited to the US government) and I'm not defending the government by any means, only pointing out the current law.
Yes I have, and I wonder why Bush hasn't issued such an order if he is so hell-bent on stopping sex tourism.
the president can not just make up laws. So which one is it Punter, can he or can't he, you must admit you have been caught in quite a contradiction.
Socialist states / Communist country call it what you will, bottom line is it ain't free!No I can't call it what I want because then I would be going on my own misperceptions and not factual researched data. BTW, you might want to tell all those Northern Europeans living in their Socialist states, they aren't free, you might want to tell Canada while you are at it. Again a misperception or an oft repeated misinterpretation is not fact, if anything it is used to distort and not inform.
Ty came on here and recounted a story that does sound very disturbing to me, going on his experience and the experience of many others who have posted on here and the president's stated goals to " crack down " on sexual tourism, and all the other multitude of sexually related " crimes " he can think of, I wouldn't be surprised if that database was more than just for informative purposes.
But as I said, your guess is as good as mine, sad commentary for our times that a man can't fuck a woman or travel to another country and not be hassled as a drug smuggling pedophile sex tourist. But hey, that's just my humble opinion.
Bad
StrayLight
06-16-07, 23:17
I do agree they are building a data base.Indeed they are...and I am in it. Or should I say, someone else with my exact name is in it.
And no matter what, each and every time I enter the United States, as soon as the customs and immigration officer enters my name into the computer, my customs and immigration form gets a yellow stripe. And then after I get my luggage I am taken aside for "the treatment." Sometimes it's cursory, other times it's not. But regardless, it will never stop; I am in the database, and I will stay there.
Fortunately, I only have a few more mandatory trips back to the U. S. If things don't lighten up a bit after January, 2009, I'll be seriously considering simply calling it a day for travelling back there.
Punter 127
06-16-07, 23:52
So which one is it Punter, can he or can't he, you must admit you have been caught in quite a contradiction."Presidents of the United States have issued executive orders since 1789, usually to help direct the operation of executive officers. Some orders do have the force of law when made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress of the United States, when those acts give the President discretionary powers."
What act of Congress gives the Presindent discretionary powers over prostitution?
I suggest this is why Bush hasn't issued such an order. I'm sure he would if he thought he could get by with it.
No I can't call it what I want because then I would be going on my own misperceptions and not factual researched data. BTW, you might want to tell all those Northern Europeans living in their Socialist states, they aren't free, you might want to tell Canada while you are at it. Again a misperception or an oft repeated misinterpretation is not fact, if anything it is used to distort and not inform. Yes right after I tell the poeple of Viet Nam, North Korea, Cuba, and the folks of the former Soviet block they have never lived under communist control. We both know what we were referring to and you are just playing word games.
Ty came on here and recounted a story that does sound very disturbing to me, going on his experience and the experience of many others who have posted on here and the president's stated goals to " crack down " on sexual tourism, and all the other multitude of sexually related " crimes " he can think of, I wouldn't be surprised if that database was more than just for informative purposes.
But as I said, your guess is as good as mine, sad commentary for our times that a man can't fuck a woman or travel to another country and not be hassled as a drug smuggling pedophile sex tourist. But hey, that's just my humble opinion.This I agree with.
Punter 127
06-17-07, 00:01
Indeed they are. And I am in it. Or should I say, someone else with my exact name is in it.
And no matter what, each and every time I enter the United States, as soon as the customs and immigration officer enters my name into the computer, my customs and immigration form gets a yellow stripe. And then after I get my luggage I am taken aside for "the treatment." Sometimes it's cursory, other times it's not. But regardless, it will never stop; I am in the database, and I will stay there.
Fortunately, I only have a few more mandatory trips back to the U. S. If things don't lighten up a bit after January, 2009, I'll be seriously considering simply calling it a day for travelling back there.Other guys have told me the same thing, you have my sympathy, I think its BS. IMHO; I wouldn't count on it changing in 2009, no matter who is elected.
Yes right after I tell the poeple of Viet Nam, North Korea, Cuba, and the folks of the former Soviet block they have never lived under communist control. We both know what we were referring to and you are just playing word games.Well we have somehow gone off the deep end here again. But you are wrong, the Koreans are living under a " democratic " government ans in the DPRK the " Democratic " Peoples Republic of Korea, some of the biggest human rights offenders usually fly the flag of " democracy " obviously the DPRK isn't democratic, though they refer to themselves as such, neither are they communist, they are a military state and the good of the collective has been replaced by the good of the military.
Anyone that understands Communist theory can tell you, those who actually postulated a true Communist state knew it was pretty impossible to see one in the near future and Socialism was only the path to Communism, the problem is no recent government or society has ever been able to surpass that point.
It is obvious you don't know a thing about either Socialism or Communism except the preprogrammed " all socialist states are communist and all communists are bad " response. It never existed, only in the minds of some intellectual idealists. But just because it never existed doesn't mean it never will. This is not an argument about simple semantics, this is about ignorance, misperceptions and fact.
FACT, all countries born out of political and civil struggle go through all types of repression, do you think the US was allways as " free " as it is today? Were the Slaves enjoying their democracy? How about the native americans?? Or american women, were they exercising their rights? The chinese immigrants for sure were living in a democracy, or maybe the Mexicans who went to sleep in Mexico and woke up in the USA ? How about all those loyalists? Were they oppressed? Maybe the confederate south didn't need to be supressed, censured, oppressed and practically exterminated. Let's be real, You seem to want to erase and sweep under the rug the first 200 years of American " democracy " and bash the first 60 years of the Soviet Socialist Republics.
Good Luck,
Bad
PS, I agree with everything you have said except the gratuitous unresearched ignorant socialist bashing
Indeed they are. And I am in it. Or should I say, someone else with my exact name is in it.
And no matter what, each and every time I enter the United States, as soon as the customs and immigration officer enters my name into the computer, my customs and immigration form gets a yellow stripe. And then after I get my luggage I am taken aside for "the treatment." Sometimes it's cursory, other times it's not. But regardless, it will never stop; I am in the database, and I will stay there.
Fortunately, I only have a few more mandatory trips back to the U. S. If things don't lighten up a bit after January, 2009, I'll be seriously considering simply calling it a day for travelling back there.Yellow Stripe? From now on I will only take a single bag; one of those hiking backpacks. No need for a suitcase anymore. Hopefully it will qualify as a carry-on bag.
Can you elaborate on your treatment? Most guys have never had a problem. I still want to know why I was a target last time.
It could be that for every flight, they have a quota of 1 or 2 passengers they must check in order to justify getting paid, and I was just the unlucky one. Or they could be jealous that when they were my age they were already stuck with 3 kids from their 300# feminist wives and never thought of flying to a foreign country to have a good time.
Punter 127
06-17-07, 11:25
It is obvious you don't know a thing about either Socialism or Communism except the preprogrammed " all socialist states are communist and all communists are bad " response.
Good Luck,
Bad.
PS, I agree with everything you have said except the gratuitous unresearched ignorant socialist bashingWe have gone way off topic here but I strongly disagree with your opinions. I'm not going to change your opinion and you are not going to change mine, nor am I going to succumb to your flame baiting "gratuitous" personal attacks.
We were having a simple discussion about Safety in Argentina,
Someone shared some personal accounts of harrasement at the US border and you decided to start going off on Communism as a whole and Socialist countries in general. Ask any scholar, a purely communist state has never existed, disagree all you want, this is pure fact,
I respect your opinions, but they are factually inaccurate.
Good luck.
Bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
We have gone way off topic here but I strongly disagree with your opinions. I'm not going to change your opinion and you are not going to change mine, nor am I going to succumb to your flame baiting "gratuitous" personal attacks.That's why I avoid heated debates, online or in person. No one is ever going to change their minds with such emotion involved. Only time I will try to educate someone is when they've already demonstrated they are curious or have an open mind. (Not taking either person's side here.)
Punter 127
06-17-07, 16:22
Well I hate to tell this but despite all you ramblings, I still think communism sucks. So go ahead and type another page of propaganda if you like, but it won't change my opinion and I doubt it will change anybody else's opinion of communism.
I'm finished with this bullshit, so you can put your last spin on it.
Nothing to spin, simply quoting the Wikipedia article that states what every political science scholar allready knows. That is all, believe what you want. Of course you think communism sucks, you were programmed to think that a looooong time ago and no one will ever open your narrow mind to think differently.
The only propaganda was you going off topic to attack those that don't share your narrow viewpoint. And then, crying propaganda when factual references and analysis were put on the table.
If you noticed, I am no longer talking about communism (sorry, I know that word makes you cringe) since the factual points I made have allready been backed up by historical data and common knowledge analysis that you could never refute.
Good luck with the whoring.
Bad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
QUOTE:
Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production. It can be considered a branch of the broader socialist movement. "
QUOTE:
Karl Marx held that society could not be transformed from the capitalist mode of production to the advanced communist mode of production all at once, but required a transitional period which Marx described as the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat, the first stage of communism. The communist society Marx envisioned emerging from capitalism has never been implemented, and it remains theoretical.
QUOTE:
Marx, in fact, commented very little on what communist society would actually look like. However, the term 'Communism', especially when it is capitalized, is often used to refer to the political and economic regimes under communist parties that claimed to embody the dictatorship of the proletariat.
Good luck,
Bad aka The factually accurate " propagandist "
From a retired man living in Mexico:
To the pathetic cretins who pass for government agents these days, it simply has to mean drug abuse, right? They gotta' be studly heroes, and try to make a major drug bust. They don't give a **** if their efforts embarrass and humiliate you. The founding fathers well understood the sort of people who work as government agents, and thus included the Second Amendment in the Constitution. We have become a nation in which young men will go far away and kill people they don't hate because someone tells them to in the name of freedom, but won't fight their own government traitors who take away their own freedoms.
If the truth didn't work, next time you might try telling them you were engaged in copulating day and night with the local sweeties who frequent tourist bars, and that you reccommend it for their next vacation -- if there is a grain of truth to that statement; don't lie outright.
They were all Hispanic because a large percent of people in big Texas cities are Hispanic.
More seriously, it depends upon how you travel to and from Mexico what happens. If those imbeciles believe red eyes only comes from drugs you may expect to be harassed every time that you come back with red eyes.
Be sure to write your local Federal Representatives and Senators and ask them how long law-abiding citizens will have to put up with being treated like criminals by a bunch of "jack-booted thugs." (A statement made several years ago by Senator Charles Grassley.
In your case, I suppose you will just have to tell them you were on vacation three months in Mexico and take what comes. At times, before I cross in my car, when I get near the border, I crawl underneath and look for any packages stuck under the car. But, you have to pass another station 60 miles north of the border. DO NOT EVER TAKE SO MUCH AS A.22 BULLET TO MEXICO; FIVE YEARS IN PRISON.
It is common on Thorn Tree for people to say the only rude people they encounter during a trip to Mexico lasting many weeks is the customs / immigration people at re-entry.
I think I am harassed less because my white-haired wife is usually with me when I cross.
I have not flown anywhere since I retired in 1997 and have no intention of every flying again. That is mostly because of how I used to be treated by Airport Security.
Now how many hundreds of millions were killed under " democratic " Capitalism and fascist Capitalism. We should read up on what Fascism actually was, nothing more than super capitalism. Let's see, 11 million in Vietnam, another couple hundred million Native Americans (North and South America combined) a couple million slaves in the Americas. What about 40 million during WWII, How many are dying now in Iraq and Afghanistan, What beautiful " Democratic " Capitalism we are spreading.
Truth be told, True Communism has never existed, but Capitalism sure has and it has killed HUNDREDS of millions of people ever since it's inception. So if all we care about here is human lives and not just political talking points, we would speak the truth.
Bad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
QUOTE:
Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production. It can be considered a branch of the broader socialist movement. "
QUOTE:
Karl Marx held that society could not be transformed from the capitalist mode of production to the advanced communist mode of production all at once, but required a transitional period which Marx described as the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat, the first stage of communism. The communist society Marx envisioned emerging from capitalism has never been implemented, and it remains theoretical.
QUOTE:
Marx, in fact, commented very little on what communist society would actually look like. However, the term 'Communism', especially when it is capitalized, is often used to refer to the political and economic regimes under communist parties that claimed to embody the dictatorship of the proletariat.
Are you kidding me?
The topic is safety in Argentina? Are you sure you are on the right thread? Or even the right country for that matter? How about the right century? The victims of capitalism are victims regardless of what I say or do, I was just adding some actual context to your posts. People have died under all types of governments but the most have, historically, died under Capitalism. Also, there is a HUGE difference with being " familiar " with Marx and actually read, study and understand what the fuck he was talking about. If you actually understood anything about communism other than the " bad " or " red " labels, you might of understood wht I keep posting,
Communism has yet to be, Marx postulated it would take a few hundred years of Socialism. And again, remind me the glory days of the first 200 YEARS of American Democratic Capitalism?
Yeah, nevermind.
Bad
CarneValistico
07-12-07, 17:32
Hi Badboy,
I don't want to play the smart ass, but in WWII died allready 14 mio germans, min 20 mio russians + 3 mio russian soldiers in german camps + min 6mio jews. The newest estemations are between 60-80mio ppls.
Alexander the Great, Nero, Hannibal, Karl the Great, Karl from Spain, Napoleon,
Katharina the Great, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Ho Tchi Ming.
All of them made it somehow to bring the puplic behind them more or less.
Conclusion: History happend, but noone learned the lesson out of it. So the reason why is just a question how to manipulate people.
You see it every weekend in the stadions of this world, one group against the other. We are Neanderthals - able to use laptops, and fly to the moon.
But gratulations to your chosen car, you are a cultivated Neanderthal:-)
Please consider taking your time and read the many recent posts concerning this issue, and you will find out, that Buenos Aires is not, repeat NOT a dangerous place. Not more dangerous than London, San Francisco, Berlin, Paris, Barcelona, or any other larger city on the world. You are kidding right?
Not a day goes by that a person doens't get shot, killed, or kidnapped in Buenos Aires, you think that happens too in the places you mention? Paris? Barcelona? London?
FerFAL
So, for all you potential BA travelers-don't believe the hysterical crap you hear from some people about crime in BA. Odds are, it's safer here than wherever you are.Riiiight. That's why Bush's daughter got robbed in San Telmo, EVEN with the secret service protecting her.
But that happens everywhere, right?
"The murder rate in Argentina is higher than in the United States. In 2003 there were 7.5 murders per 100,000 inhabitants in Argentina, and 5.7 in the U.S.
The rate of robbery in Argentina is higher than in the United States. In 2003 there were 1000 robberies per 100,000 inhabitants in Argentina, and 142 in the U.S.
The rate of aggravated assaults in Argentina is higher than in the United States. In 2003 there were 346 incidents per 100,000 inhabitants in Argentina, and 295 in the U.S."You should trust Argentine rates as much as you trust the INDEC, meaning you shouldn't trust it at all, or multiply it by 2 or 3 to get a somewhat orientative number.
Not to mention that, if you live here, you know as well as I do that most people simply dont bother going to the police and reporting the crime if they get mugged.
FerFAL
Riiiight. That's why Bush's daughter got robbed in San Telmo, EVEN with the secret service protecting her.
But that happens everywhere, right?
You should trust Argentine rates as much as you trust the INDEC, meaning you shouldn't trust it at all, or multiply it by 2 or 3 to get a somewhat orientative number.
Not to mention that, if you live here, you know as well as I do that most people simply don't bother going to the police and reporting the crime if they get mugged.
FerFALWhat rock did this worm crawl out from under?
for a discussion, and certainly welcome (preferably educated) criticism of any statement I made.
I equally certainly are not used to be called "nuts" in public and consider this an insult. And if quoting me, I suggest to quote the WHOLE text, not just the part you like.
I think I speak for a majority of forum members if I say that we just don't need you here, Ferval. Te vayas.
El Alemán
I generally agree with most of Doggboys opinions in his posts but not on this issue. I am sure as long-term inhabitants, we seek to put our chosen city in the best light. The reality is in my experience, that the majority of personal crime does not get reported. Street muggings have occurred with both my staff, my car broken into and an attempted house robbery this year have all gone unreported. And each year is much the same. Reports in the past have been time consuming and the police completely disinterested and they have never followed up a single time. So the real crime rate is certainly many times greater than official statistics. My neighbors and other aquaintances take the same approach.
You should trust Argentine rates as much as you trust the INDEC, meaning you shouldn't trust it at all, or multiply it by 2 or 3 to get a somewhat orientative number.
Not to mention that, if you live here, you know as well as I do that most people simply don't bother going to the police and reporting the crime if they get mugged.
FerFAL[/QUOTE]
I generally agree with most of Doggboys opinions in his posts but not on this issue. I am sure as long-term inhabitants, we seek to put our chosen city in the best light.
FerFAL[/QUOTE]Argento-I am sure that you are right and that much crime is unreported. And sure, Buenos Aires can be dangerous. That said, I have never gotten the "willies" walking around Buenos Aires. I can't say that about most major cities I have lived in or visited. I think the percentage of locals who have mayhem on their minds is far less than many major cities. Soon I'll be living in Mexico City for awhile and I expect I will have more than one case of the willies.
My "worm" reaction to Ferfal is a comment on his sudden hysterical burst onto the AP scene with nary a how do you do. Almost always an indication of a pain in the ass. Prove me wrong Ferfal.
The outburst is a reaction to hearing people compare the safety of London, Paris and Barcelona, to the streets of Buenos Aires.
I've visited all those cities and have family living in Barcelona for years now.
Aleman, like it or not, comparing Barcelona to Buenos Aires in terms of crime and security is laughable.
Look, it's "somewhat" safe if you stay in the Capital and don't walk around much at night out of the tourists areas, but other that that, it's a dangerous place to live in, specially after it went down bad in 2001. Things have changed a lot here.
I don't know where you guys live, but the rock I crawled from is in Lomas de Zamora, Buenos Aires, and the idea of comparing this city and country to any of the cities mentioned is insanity.
Even people living in down town share my view, I'm surprised so many of you have such a pink shaded view of our city.
I'm curious, where do you people live?
FerFAL
Ferfal,
Try having less outburst and more sincere argument. There's really no excuse for coming in like a gangbuster and slinging shit, no matter which way your opinion runs. Most here would welcome a reasonable debate but shit-slinging in "outrage" just doesn't win anyone over no matter how many facts or how much personal experience you have.
I agree that Buenos Aires is not as safe as many large European or American cities. But it's not nearly as bad as some large cities throughout the world. (Luanda comes to mind from personal experience...)
My girl's brother was mugged two blocks from our apartment at 6:00 am and her sister about four blocks from the apartment about 7:00 am, both within a month of each other, both by the same people, about three or four months ago. I live near the corner of Callao and Corrientes, hardly an overtly dangerous spot. The brother was robbed at the corner of Callao and Peron. Very busy intersection but there weren't many people out that time fo the day. They didn't bother to report it.
Having said that, I've never had the willies here, myself. But I also watch very closely when I'm out and about late at night (I never get up early, so that's not an issue for me) and don't give people a chance to get near me if I can help it. Both robberies mentioned above happened when people stopped the brother and sister and asked for directions, and others came in from ahead and behind and brought out a knife.
When I lived in the States, my house was broken into twice and my car window broken and tapes stolen once. I lived in a reasonably affluent neighborhood in Houston that had constables patrolling 24 hours. They never did any follow up either - in most crimes like this, no matter the city, there is usually nothing to follow up on.
A neighborhood I lived in before that one had a crazy guy across the street who took his girlfriend and newborn baby hostage and caused a whole slew of cops to rain in on them. That was a big follow up, but the crime was a bit more serious and happening in real time so to speak.
I was mugged once on Mahattan in Greenwich Village. The NYPD couldn't do anything.
My ex-wife was pick-pocketed in Rome on the way to see the pope speak, in the subway, with me right behind her, but cut off from the crowd. They took traveler's checks and my wallet with my driver's license in it (she was carrying a back-pack purse with the flap tied down - we thought my wallet was safer there than in my pockets - lol) The Rome cops couldn't do anything but give me their condolences.
Shit happens all over the place, and the poorer the neighborhood the more lilkely it is to happen. There are certainly more poor neighrborhoods here than in most cities in the States on Europe.
As well, the less careful you are, the more likely it is to happen no matter where you are.
This has been reported before, but the murder rate for Argentina and USA is about 8 and 5 per 100,000 per year respectively. Western European countries a bit less. 8 is not dangerous by world standards. Since the metro BsAs area comprises around a third of the total population, its rate shouldn't deviate extremely from the country rate.
I spent a night down in Lomas de Zamora once, and from what I remember it was like a very poor neighborhood of Detroit or Washington, where the crime rates are much higher than average. But I still had a brill time at the Christmas party I was invited to there (much of the time partying in the street).
I never had a problem with crime in the 6 active years I lived in BsAs.
Ferfal,
Try having less outburst and more sincere argument. There's really no excuse for coming in like a gangbuster and slinging shit, no matter which way your opinion runs. Most here would welcome a reasonable debate but shit-slinging in "outrage" just doesn't win anyone over no matter how many facts or how much personal experience you have.
I agree that Buenos Aires is not as safe as many large European or American cities. But it's not nearly as bad as some large cities throughout the world. (Luanda comes to mind from personal experience.
My girl's brother was mugged two blocks from our apartment at 6:00 am and her sister about four blocks from the apartment about 7:00 am, both within a month of each other, both by the same people, about three or four months ago. I live near the corner of Callao and Corrientes, hardly an overtly dangerous spot. The brother was robbed at the corner of Callao and Peron. Very busy intersection but there weren't many people out that time fo the day. They didn't bother to report it.
Having said that, I've never had the willies here, myself. But I also watch very closely when I'm out and about late at night (I never get up early, so that's not an issue for me) and don't give people a chance to get near me if I can help it. Both robberies mentioned above happened when people stopped the brother and sister and asked for directions, and others came in from ahead and behind and brought out a knife.
When I lived in the States, my house was broken into twice and my car window broken and tapes stolen once. I lived in a reasonably affluent neighborhood in Houston that had constables patrolling 24 hours. They never did any follow up either - in most crimes like this, no matter the city, there is usually nothing to follow up on.
A neighborhood I lived in before that one had a crazy guy across the street who took his girlfriend and newborn baby hostage and caused a whole slew of cops to rain in on them. That was a big follow up, but the crime was a bit more serious and happening in real time so to speak.
I was mugged once on Mahattan in Greenwich Village. The NYPD couldn't do anything.
My ex-wife was pick-pocketed in Rome on the way to see the pope speak, in the subway, with me right behind her, but cut off from the crowd. They took traveler's checks and my wallet with my driver's license in it (she was carrying a back-pack purse with the flap tied down - we thought my wallet was safer there than in my pockets - lol) The Rome cops couldn't do anything but give me their condolences.
Shit happens all over the place, and the poorer the neighborhood the more lilkely it is to happen. There are certainly more poor neighrborhoods here than in most cities in the States on Europe.
As well, the less careful you are, the more likely it is to happen no matter where you are.Very sensible report cheese. Your points make perfect sense.
Thomaso276
11-17-07, 00:57
Here is an interesting link with some stats and the process of criminal justice here in Argentina.
http://www.cejamericas.org/reporte/muestra_pais.php?idioma=INGLES&pais=ARGENTIN&tipreport=REPORTE2&seccion=0
I believe BA is alot safer than many places in the States. And rest assured, many stats regarding crime in the States are manipulated by local PD's. The national stats are gathered from monthly reports submitted by every Police Chief in the States. As well, just like here in BA many crimes go unreported.
Want your community to look safe (and therefore your job performance to look great) just make sure that you have alot of suspicious incident headers instead of armed robbery, auto theft, strong-arm robbery. Here how it works: a guy goes to buy crack and the dealer pulls a gun and robs him. The dummy goes to police and after some pressure a report is filed but not as an armed robbery. Suspicious incident is a favorite - no crime stat here. Or drunken spring breakers report money is missing from their hotel room, suspicious of "the maid" a report is filed that property was lost or stolen - no crime stat there.
One interesting report I found showed that rapes in the States were three times as high as Argentina. Sex prison?
One interesting report I found showed that rapes in the States were three times as high as Argentina. Sex prison?Paraphrasing another member, I imagine that a lot of what's classified as rape in USA is just considered "boys being boys" in Argentina.
Ditto for most types of discrimination and other subjective violations.
Again, people here don't trust the police much, don't be surprsied if the actual rapes are much more than what it's reported. And yes, you'll hardly ever hear about statutory rape here. We've even had actors dating under age actresses on public and on camera and notihing happened.
FerFAL
Again, people here don't trust the police much, don't be surprsied if the actual rapes are much more than what it's reported. And yes, you'll hardly ever hear about statutory rape here. We've even had actors dating under age actresses on public and on camera and notihing happened.
FerFALAbout 2 years ago 16 year old Hillary Duff was dating Good Charlotte vocalist Joel Madden, he was about 25 years old. A highly publicized relationship in Hollywood (age of consent is 18 btw) NOTHING HAPPENED. Shit like this happens everywhere. I think 35 year old Elvis married a 14 year old Prescilla in a very public relationship. R Kelly bangs and pisses on 14 year old girls in sex videos AND GETS AWAY WITH IT, this is all AFTER he married a 14 year old Alliyah btw. I am sorry, I think you have never been to the US, our (Hollywood's) level of debauchery is superior to Buenos Aires.
I thought we were talking about REAL crime, such as murder, rape, armed robbery kidnapping, not some horny celebrities getting off.
Again, people here don't trust the police much, don't be surprsied if the actual rapes are much more than what it's reported. And yes, you'll hardly ever hear about statutory rape here. We've even had actors dating under age actresses on public and on camera and notihing happened.
FerFALThe age of consent here is 14. Therefore having sex with a 15 or 16 hear old girl isn't illegal (statutory rape) so why should anything happen?
It's true many women don't report rapes not because they don't trust the police but because of shame, embarrassment or many other personal reasons which I won't waste my time trying to explain. Only in these last months I met two women that had been raped when 18 or 20 years old and had never told even their parents (whom otherwise they trusted completely)
As for other crimes, many go unreported as the average citizen considers it a waste of time reporting a case of pickpocketing or minor theft unless a document or passport was stolen and a police report is needed to replace the document. Of course if they are not reported, the police can do very little about them.
Although the media make the most of them, the real amount of killings in the City of Buenos Aires is relatively low. On the other hand, deaths occurred during traffic accidents is extremely high. (About three every two days)
Going back to the murders, almost 80% are passion or personal motivated crimes and less than 20% are caused during robberies or other crimes.
Now, in the crack "pasta base" riddled villa miserias of Gran Buenos Aires, these numbers change quite drastically. Fortunately for the city dweller, most of these criminals commit the crimes within a maximum 2 kilometre radius of their homes.
Another crime that may worry the monger is kidnapping. Once again it is relatively low in the country. And there are no cases of foreign nationals victims of kidnapping. The logistics of getting the ransom money is much too complicated to be worth the bother. A very popular modality not long ago was the "express" kidnapping where the victim was driven around by a couple of crooks and taken to ATM machines where they emptied his accounts. Today, with the (pain in the ass) limits on extractions and video cameras in all the ATM machines this is becoming less and less common.
Of course, numbers are just numbers and the fact that the possibility of being robbed or shot or whatever is only a 1% is meaningless if you happen to be that 1%. Otherwise, Buenos Aires is much safer than many similar sized cities in the World.
I just read this today.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071118/ap_on_re_us/dangerous_cities
Another modality brought to my attention by WT69 that a monger may be victim of is the "salidera de banco" leaving a bank.
This usually occurs when the victim leaves a bank or exchange house with an important sum of money. Usually two guys on a motorbike drive by. The fucker on the back jumps off and bangs heavily into the vic relieving him of his valuables, jumps back on the motorbike and roar off before anyone realises what happened.
This is not a random attack, the crooks know in detail the amount of money and even where the victim has kept it. This is because they have a third in the bank watching what's going on. Years back they would use a cell phone but nowadays since cell phones are banned inside banks, the crooks have gone back to the old sign language system. The guy inside the bank follows the vic and by sign language indicates to the other two on the motorbike what they need to know.
It is quite easy to protect yourself from this. When possible get a wingman to go with you to the bank:
Do erratic things, start to leave and turn on your heels go back in and sit on a bench or stand looking out the window. While doing this watch for other "clients" doing the same. If you notice someone suspicious, look him in the eyes. Let him know you have seen him. Usually this is enough for them to leave you alone and go looking for easier prey.
When you leave the bank walk against the traffic. You against the wall and the wingman on the streetside.
If you have to walk with the traffic, you do against the wall and your wingman two steps behind on the streetside.
If you are still not sure that you have scared them off tell the cop at the bank that you are worried and refuse to leave till you feel safe.
These crooks seldom use firearms but they can be very violent.
Remember, don't be paranoid just keep your eyes open.
When you leave the bank walk against the traffic. You against the wall and the wingman on the streetside.
If you have to walk with the traffic, you do against the wall and your wingman two steps behind on the streetside.I learned that the proper way to walk with a girlfriend/wife (and her purse) in BsAs is always with the man on the street side of the sidewalk. It makes simple sense for security reasons but did not occur to me until a portenya novia switched sides on me walking home one night and clarified this minor element of urban chivalry.
And remember, accidentally stepping in dogshit with you left foot is considered good luck (like in Paris).
WTF?
You JUST learned that? They do that in the US also. I was doing that shit in highschool. Well, better late than never.
I learned that the proper way to walk with a girlfriend / wife (and her purse) in BsAs is always with the man on the street side of the sidewalk. It makes simple sense for security reasons but did not occur to me until a portenya novia switched sides on me walking home one night and clarified this minor element of urban chivalry.
And remember, accidentally stepping in dogshit with you left foot is considered good luck (like in Paris)
You step in dog shit for luck? That's crazy!
FYI guys, The reason the man is supposed to walk on the street side dates back to early time when they had shit pots. Back it the old days they actually through it out the window onto the street below. So to protect his investment the man would walk on the street side. Hence when the shit hit the road below she was hopefully spared. This has all changed with indoor plumbing. But now because so many people in Argentina are clueless (or is that class less? Dog shit on the sidewalks.
For security it's a good idea to do this and have her carry her hand bag between the two of you. A lot harder to grab that way.
JB.
I learned that the proper way to walk with a girlfriend / wife (and her purse) in BsAs is always with the man on the street side of the sidewalk. It makes simple sense for security reasons but did not occur to me until a portenya novia switched sides on me walking home one night and clarified this minor element of urban chivalry.
And remember, accidentally stepping in dogshit with you left foot is considered good luck (like in Paris)
WTF?
You JUST learned that? They do that in the US also. I was doing that shit in high school. Well, better late than never.I'm from the sticks - didn't have indoor plumbing or telephone until around high school.
Thank you for pointing out my crudeness.
Sorry, didn't mean to point that out:D, I was just a little surprised you had just learned that. Being from the sticks shouldn't make a difference, most times, they are some of the most well mannered people I have met (though I understood your sarcasm).
I'm from the sticks - didn't have indoor plumbing or telephone until around high school.
Thank you for pointing out my crudeness.On a side note, what I have heard about this custom is this: You walk with the girl towards the inside of the street to acknowledge she isn't available. If you walk with her and she is walking closer to the street this means she is available and you are her pimp. I know, very strange and probably bullshit, But someone explained that to me once, I guess it goes WAY back when pimps used to walk the streets with their hookers in tow.
Regards,
On a side note, what I have heard about this custom is this: You walk with the girl towards the inside of the street to acknowledge she isn't available. If you walk with her and she is walking closer to the street this means she is available and you are her pimp. I know, very strange and probably bullshit, But someone explained that to me once, I guess it goes WAY back when pimps used to walk the streets with their hookers in tow.I don't think it's bullshit entirely. When you are walking with your girlfriend on the inside it is another indication that she is "taken". If you were walking with a female business colleague she could be on the street side.
AllIWantIsLove
02-23-08, 13:45
An article from today's New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/23/world/americas/23argentina.html?ex=1204434000&en=f6613ce2f3a9fd2d&ei=5070&emc=eta1
Last night at Exedra a local guy was sitting at the last table towards Paraguay St. A kid jumped from behind him and snatched his cell phone and crossed the 9 de Julio running. The guy didn't have a chance!
Remember this when you are sitting outside. Keep away from the tables at the ends as they are easy to snatch things from and make a clean escape. Also the front tables on the side-walks can be dangerous. The tables at the back where most mongers sit are the safest.
And also remember that anything is worth money for these kids. Lighters, watches, cell phones or a wallet. Don't put them on the tables in front of you.
Also a few Sundays back on Cordoba St and Florida I witnessed two guys on a motor bike. One jumped off the back and grabbed a handbag from the back of a lady's chair (she was sitting in the bar on the corner) and before anyone could react he was back on the motorbike and they were revving up Cordoba.
Wild Walleye
02-26-08, 05:41
I don't think it's bullshit entirely. When you are walking with your girlfriend on the inside it is another indication that she is "taken". If you were walking with a female business colleague she could be on the street side.Moore:
Finally, a subject I know something about (or at least think I do)
This tradition is old school (and Old World) Any real man (or at least one with manners) escorting any lady, whether his mother, wife or mistress should always walk on the street side of his lady.
I believe that the tradition of walking on the street side goes back at least to the days of the Renaissance in Italy (beginning in the mid 1300's) When, despite the ravages of the Black Death and the on-going feuds between the Medicis and Ghibellinis, there was a renewed social consciousness (combined with the general lack of some of the things we take for granted like sewage and street cleaning)
The Notion of a man walking on the street side was to protect his lady companion from being splashed by the refuse in the street gutters as a carriage passed by--keeping in mind that all matter of household and bodily waste was essentially thrown or delivered by other means to the street (think hepatitis, cholera, dysentery, etc)--or some other nasty episode that could potentially occur, whilst strolling down and avenue lined with fecal matter, urine and other unpleasant stuff.
It is one of those things, like taking off your hat when you enter a building that is steeped in tradition and still considered by some to be polite.
From my limited observations, minding ones manners is important (at least in business) in getting ahead in BAs. Remember that the Old World influences are quite strong.
All the best.
WW
Question for this well mannered and historically knowledgable crowd. Waking in front of the woman, as done in the Moslem countries, is chavelry or chauvinistic?
Do not bring up this safety issue for BA any more.
BA is probably safer than most US or European big cities.
Taxis are SAFE.
All apartments, clubs and restaurants on the lists on this website are safe.
Relax and have a good time.
Living in Rio.
With a lot of different security.
Do not bring up this safety issue for BA any more.
BA is probably safer than most US or European big cities.
Taxis are SAFE.
All apartments, clubs and restaurants on the lists on this website are safe.
Relax and have a good time.
Living in Rio.
With a lot of different security.Isola - BA is much safer than most other cities of it's kind. There is no doubt about that but sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that nothing happens here is stupid.
Walk around with an expensive watch on or leave your fancy cell phone on the table in front of you or your wallet sticking half out of your back pocket and you will soon be relieved of them.
It's true that there are less chances of being robbed at pistol point than other places (while in the safety zone) but whether your wallet was picked out of your pocket or taken at gun point the end result is the same - you don't have your wallet any more!
And, though I say stickups are not frequent, it doesn't mean they don't happen! They do - and they have happened to clients of mine!
Informing the mongers of what is happening or what can happen to them is not to frighten them but to keep them alert.
You are both right - BA is much safer than, say Sao Paolo or Joburg, but shit happpens. And not putting your fancy cellphone in front of you or having your wallet stick invitingly halfway out of your seat pocket sounds like good advice - in Paris, Rome, San Francisco, Berlin, Prague, and, of course, Buenos Aires. That sort of petty crime is anyway. My Lawyer (the Argentine one) got his notebook stolen on Madrid airport.
So, just use normal caution. Thing DO happen.
Righto. I like my chances of not getting shot, maimed or kidnapped in most areas of Capital Federal, but snatch and grab is pretty prevalent here. In just over two years here I have witnessed maybe ten snatch and grab incidents, (including having my rented cell swiped off my belt (stupid! Most of them along the cafes on Pelligrini between Paraguay and Lavalle, and also in Recoleta Village. If you sport expensive watches, leave your cell out on a table, or if you have cash on the table waiting to pay a check-you are asking for trouble. The thieves are usually young, faster than you and in their element a hell of a lot more resourceful than you. Take a few minor precautions and you cut down the chances of getting ripped off tremendously.
Wild Walleye
02-29-08, 00:57
Safety is a combination of common sense and luck.
Big cities, all big cities, no matter where they lie, have bad elements within them (actually, it's more a function of human nature than of cities themselves--since cities are inanimate) They are also great places to enjoy.
Don't be fooled into thinking that the bad elements are confined to the worst neighborhoods, they are not. For instance if some dirt bag robs somebody outside a crack house in an s-hole neighborhood, he's not likely to come away with much. After trying this many times, the dirtbag (even the dumbest) will learn to take the bus to a nice neighborhood where people tend to have more money / valuables on their person while they are walking around.
Real world example: recently, a gentleman (I don't know him so I really do not know that he is in fact a gentleman rather than just a plain old man) returning to his home (in one of the nicer neighborhoods in BAs -- across the street from an embassy) on Libertador early in the morning, was accosted, robbed an shot (not mortally) by a small group of nere do wells. Things like this don't happen often in Bas but they can and do happen and are locale-independent.
Most of you guys have been around the block a few times and have traveled to interesting and different locales. Who among us hasn't stumbled or wobbled through the streets of Recoleta or SoHo or along the banks of the Moskva (or some other nice neighborhood) at three or four in the morning thinking nothing of our well being (because we are too focused on trying not to fall down or puke on our shoes) Further, I suspect that we've all had a scrape or two that, in hind sight, we realize were situations we could have avoided if we had our antennae up for self-preservation.
There are a few things we can do to help improve our own personal safety while enjoying the great cities of the world. Be aware of your surroundings, try not to stand out as a target (I. E. Keep valuables out of sight) and try to avoid places and situations that court disaster. When traveling internationally, it makes sense to keep a copy of your passport and the means (I. E. A credit card with room and some cash) to get home in the hotel safe. You can also upload a high-res scan of your passport to the web and access it anywhere. Do your homework about what is really going on in the city and plan a little to avoid problems (hire a driver or plan to hit the bar near the hotel last so your not stumbling too far—or wait until you're back the hotel to really tie one one) etc.
BAs is a great city. Be safe and enjoy.
WW
HairBalderman
02-29-08, 06:37
Sound advice, Walleye.
Thomaso276
12-09-08, 11:37
Here is a webpage from a big ad today in the Clarin. Apparently it will allow users to pinpoint where they were victims of robberies. Of course, the page is down and cannot be accessed at this time!
www.mapadelainseguridad.com
I can only agree with Wild Walleye. Have been walking around Buenos Aires now for over a week and although I have not been threatened in anyway caution is always adviced. Blending in whith the locals as a tourist is never an easy thing. Have talked with locals and even they advice to be carefull at any time. Making copiesand scans of your documents is always handy cause you can access the internet almost on every corner of the street and it doesn't cost much. But Buenos Aires is a great city and a must to visit. For those coming to BA take a small umbrella as it started raining today and might do so for the next few days.
Enjoy all!
QuakHunter
04-02-09, 17:20
I think this picture is of the Trannies that are robbing People.
When will it stop?
Stan Da Man
04-02-09, 22:17
I think this picture is of the Trannies that are robbing People.
When will it stop?Good one. I'll be on the lookout for those three later this month.
They look suspicious!
A chica I went out with from Madelein last Friday was fuming!
The trannies on Cordoba had tried to rob her cell phone.
A chica I went out with from Madelein last Friday was fuming! The trannies on Cordoba had tried to rob her cell phone.Seems to be more and more bad tranny stories in that area. As for cellphones, some enterprising thief stole mine out of the inside of my jacket while it was on the back of my chair at the Victoria tenedor libre. Apparently while I was sitting there! I didn't think I looked that much like one of the Bush girls.;)
From experience, where the trannies install themselves the chicas don't take long in leaving. For some reason they can't compete!
No, Dog, you don't look like one of the Bush girls, no one can look that bad!:)
Looks like I'm not the only one to suffer a stolen phone. Anecdotal evidence points to an upswing in snatch and grab lately, including a noticeable increase in use of moto's and some strong arm tactics. I have been told by a number of my porteno friends that there is a definite increase in cellphones being swiped on the street. Some of the thieves on motos or working in tandem with a moto involved. The word is to be extra cautious when talking on your phone in a public place and to avoid, if possible, using your phone when walking around town. This info is from portenos reporting on portenos being victimized.
A word to the wise.
QuakHunter
04-08-09, 16:44
Due to unforeseen circumstances, the secular portion of all Easter celebrations has been cancelled.
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