Here are some ACTUAL wages of some ARGENTINE friends of mine

[Chascomus]

I have some friends here in Argentina coming from different levels of society, and I've made a list of their wages, just to give an idea of what "employment" is like here. ALL listed in PESOS!

Just divide by THREE (roughly) to get an idea in DOLLARS.

I list more of this type of info at: www.hereicomeargentina.com

FULL time, Private Middle School Teachers: $1400/ month.

Remis Drivers (hired cars, similar to taxis): $2000/ month (shitty hours)

Kitchen Helper, Restaurant: $800/ month (split shift)

Secretary, beginning job: $800 to $1200/ month (expect to make coffee and deal with harassment)

Maid, 5 days plus half day on Saturday: $850 to $1000/ month.

Web Designer, Independant: $1800 to $2500/ month.

Cashier, Clothes Store: $850/ month.

Accountant, young just starting: $1200/ month.

Computer Tech: charges $40/ hr (house call)

Plumber: Charges about $30 to $50 a visit of about 2 hours.

Weekly Gardner: mows the lawn, weeds, general clean up CHARGES $150/ month.

Pool Cleaning, weekly, Chlorine NOT included, charges: $125/ month

[Moore]

Salary of a girl I dated last year that worked at an internet cafe: 400 pesos/month. And half of that was "black" ie cash unregistered.

Rent for her studio apartment on Corrientes was 300p/mo.

[Guiller]

Hi,

Yes, and the list can go on forever (scientists with PhD´s in top american universities plus several postdocts: 1500-2500 pesos, etc). However, a large portion of the population in the Buenos Aires area has imporant incomes. All of these people have in common the feature of not being employees: they are owners of small shops, owner of lawyer's studios, owners of real state agencies, and so on. Tax evasion on this large-incoming group is very important. In short: Argentina, as most underdeveloped countries, does not provide reasonable incoming for empoyees (either public or pivate). This feature produces important levels of depression in young people, specially in those who would like to progress moneywise, who either decide to emigrate or try to get their money bypassing a job stage. Unfare (that is, not realted to conditions or talents) wealth distribution is, in my opinion, one of the worst features of Argentina and Latin America in general. This feature is not innocent and not unrelated to global factors.

All the best

[Aqualung]

You must remember that any one with a job here has practically 100% free medical care for his or her family group, two weeks paid vacations which grows to about 40 days depending on antiquity and a pension scheme. Wages are low but the cost of labour is high. For every 100 pesos the worker gets clear his employer pays almost 200.

As Argentines are very family orientated, with kids staying home till they are married and some even then (adding on to the parents house and so on) most families have two or three breadwinners beneath the same roof and not all the costs grow in the same proportion.

[Aqualung]

And, I forgot to add, overtime is paid one and a half hours for every hour extra on a weekday and two hours for every hour on weekends.

[Dancesw/Chicas]

Aqualung,

A 22 year old "kid" does not live at home because of his or her family devotion. This happens because they don't make enough dough to have their own pads.

This is also common in other LA countries.

DWC

[Aqualung]

Dances - I agree, I was trying to be ironic!

[El Queso]

I know more Paraguayans than Argentineans because my girlfriend is Paraguayan and she has a lot of family and friends around here. She made about $3000 a month - she was a working girl for about a year and a half before she met me. She spent most of that money over a year's time to build her family (12 brothers and sisters, 9 of which still live with mom and dad) a house near Concepcion, in Horqueta. They lived in two grass huts prior to this, and the new house is four bedroom with common room, about 1000 sq ft. As a side note, everyone who lives and does business around her family now thinks the family is rich because she's hooked up with an American, whom they've met (who barely holds his own, in actuality) and they refuse to extend the family credit any more.

Her brother came to BA and is working undocumented in a verduleria, making $1050/ month - it's owned by a Paraguayan, which is why he's making a better salary than he was at his previous verduleria at $800/ month, which was owned by Koreans. He works 12 hours a day 5 1/2 days a week, but sometimes doesn't get his one full free day, so it's 6 1/2 days a week at times (same hours as the Korean shop, where he didn't get a free day) He makes about 4 times what his family in Paraguay makes on their farm, although they do mostly feed themselves with their own animals and produce. He works with two other guys from Paraguay, who are relatives of a friend of my girlfriend, who have the same deal and live in a "hotel" for $600 a month, sharing a room.

Another guy there at the verduleria (also Paraguayan) who has worked there for almost 5 years, is making $1800/ month.

Interestingly, the lone Argentino (there is also another South American working there that is not Argentinean, but I don't remember where he comes from) that worked at the verduleria was fired a few days ago because he never did any work. He was caught sleeping under a counter in a back room (he talked up how often he goes out and parties with his friends and also lives with his parents) last straw, and sent packing;) (A side comment on the work ethic of many Argentinos here)

My girlfriend has a friend who used to be a working girl (this is the friend with the two relatives here also) who is now the ("kept") girlfriend of a local Argentinian architect, who makes about $80-90K / year.

Talking with the architect one night, he told me that he pays $200 a month for his insurance - he's self-employed, so I guess that means that the businesses pay the health insurance portion? I wonder if the restaurants and small shops like kioscos pay their employees' health care, or if they do are mandated to by the government? I'm unsure how that works.

BTW - prices listed are in pesos.

[Guiller]

People with basic needs (food, health, education, job) resolved try to argue about distressfull aspects of reality focusing on them as intellectual (i.e. abstract) problems. However, real data coming from reality is less controversial: for example, any country with a large degree of emigration of the yougest portion of its population is not a desirable country. This has been going on in Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia and many other latin american countries, to different degrees since the last 50 years, and in the case of Argentina, in the last 30 years with stronger intensity (in particular, the better educated portion of its population, not the lesser educated one) Emigration is a sign of a perceived lack of future (political, social or plainly, economical) This happens in this region, in Africa and in several portions of Asia. I may remind you that only 1 out of 4 people in this world has his / her basic needs satistied (unesco sources) The pressure of this part of the global population is increasing, mainly to the larger diffussion of information about the living conditions in other regions of the world. Mass migrations due to large differences in income is one important phenomenon that happens today, but may well become in the near future one area of important global conflicts. Europe seems to have a quite difficult social challenge in the near future.

So, my may point is that emigration is a sign of lack of future, whereas inmigration is a sign of short-term prosperity. This looks to me like one of the important indicators to look at before drawing conclusion about the relative well-beign of a given society.

All the best

[El Queso]

I agree in some aspects - but it's all relative. And I don't know how basic needs are defined by UNESCO. I tend to trust UN agencies even less than my own government's agencies to either set realistic markers or produce meaningful data.

I visited for a week with my girlfriend's family in Horqueta, Paraguay. The poverty was astounding relative to my life in the States, but I also saw a very happy and well-adjusted group of people; although yes, they were beset by bandits from their own government and thieves on all sides. Were their basic needs met? They thought so. Mine wouldn't have been met over the long run, although I enjoyed my stay there. We sat out under the most gorgeous night skyies I've ever seen, while the mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, cousins, brothers, sisters et al, gathered and talked, told stories and sang songs. They have a very large suport group in their extended families.

There are some who weren't happy with that life and have moved to Argentina, the Land Of Opportunity to most Paraguayans. They have emmigrated because they don't see much hope in Paraguay, but much more hope in Argentina.

Argentinos leave Argentina to seek a better life in the States or Europe. Those that stay here (that could go) really do have a different way of looking at things as far as working and business and money go. A large number of those who leave do so because they want to do business in a more sane fashion.

People leave the States because they don't like the way they see some things going in the country and are tired of the intolerance and general idiocy, but they still get their money through business in the States or other reasonably wealthy countries (or from retirement funds, or investments) and choose to live in a society where things are more tolerant for the most part, but they don't have to deal with the same issues that local Argentineans deal with, except as peripheral issues.

I find the circle interesting looking at it from the outside, as to who thinks who is profiting from what.

As far as the population pressures from poor countries increasing - I say open the borders and do away with welfare. If a person can move freely and reasonably easily, they will go somewhere where they can have a better life and make better money. If they are unsuccessful they will go somewhere else, if someone isn't pay them to stay with welfare incentives and those who are successful won't be dragged down by paying for services that aren't being earned. The pressure is there because the rich nations jealously guard what they have and those that are left in the poor places prey on each other. If a country is concerned that it's people are leaving, they should work to make things better, but that rarely involves increased government controls - let free trade reign everywhere and the whole world will prosper.

[Redondo]

Redondo,

You don't get to post any more until you answer my question.

http://www.argentinaprivate.com/forum/showthread.php?p=373298#post373298

Thanks,

Jackson