View Full Version : Words of wisdom from real estate guru "Saint"
THE FOLLOWING POST WAS SPOTTED ON ANOTHER WEBSITE. I thought that many would be interested in how the Saint is advising his potential new clients today.
Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member.
Username: Saint.
Post Number: 193
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 7:39 am:
Hi Alex,
Yes, I TOTALLY agree with you. Real estate, and any investment for that matter, has some risks. And that includes real estate purchased in the USA. People laughed at me a few years ago when I told them that banks were giving out too many loans in the USA and bad things were going to happen. That there was risks there. That has proven to be true.
As you mentioned, real estate has risks anywhere in the world. What happened in the Ukraine and Russian real estate market has been incredible. I also had the chance to buy real estate in Eastern Europe several years ago and I passed on it because of fear, distance (being so far away) and not knowing anyone there reliable to manage the properties for me. Hindsight is 20/20 but I wish that I invested in a small property there. They have gone through the roof so congratulations.
You were wise to move here and see the market personally and manage them. It's impossible to build up a company from afar. I first came down to Buenos Aires, came down every month (or more) for 2 years before I decided it had to be done there in person if I really wanted to build up a serious company. That was the right decision.
Your #'s are spot on. When I started my business here in 2002, no one in the city was offering luxury rentals. I was the first one. And at the time there were only 3 or 4 rental companies and they were all pretty much offering cheap properties. When I was making my business plan I knew the market wouldn't be the best at the cheap end but better at the high end. Why? Because the high end attracts better quality of rental clients. People that usually pay $150 - $500/ night are usually staying at 4/5 star hotels and that has proven to be the right call. Also, business, corporations and Embassies make up about 35% of my total clientele now and that is growing.
As I've mentioned before and on my website, the fixed costs of owning a property here are very low. You have your monthly condo fee (which is usually from 200 - 600 pesos. Of course it can be more if it's a big property or has many amenities in the building like 24/7 security, pool, etc) Your utilities are fixed and subsidized so they are extremely low. Your property taxes are set at 0.75% a year based on the listed price on the title deed. Your biggest expense will be your property management fee to have a company or individual manage your property and pay your bills, handle the rentals and the your next biggest expense will be the AFIP rental taxes of 21%. So most people are making great cash flow in the meantime the capital appreciation has been steadily going up.
Yes, this isn't rocket science here. You can plug everything into a rate of return spreadsheet to estimate net rate of return as you can plug in all the numbers and estimate return. Of course prices keep rising here.
Alex correctly mentioned that new construction projects offer amazing return potential. However, they also have more risk than pre-existing properties. You have to be really really careful who the developer is. These are all speculation projects and they are building the buildin with pre-sales and sales during the building. So if something happens you can get stuck.
My best returns have been getting in projects when there is a hole in the ground. I know the developers or worked with them before. It's frustrating waiting but often times you can have a 100% return in less than two years. I got into a few projects on new constructions in mid 2006 that will be done in January 2008. I bought a few floors in the building and the investment went up 100% from then until now. I bought the top floor which is always the most desirable.
So again, not everyone is a candidate to buy in Argentina but those that have the cash to do it and have. Have been pretty happy. I think someday Argentina (in several cities) you could see the scenario of what Alex described above. Waking up and a decade later seeing your properties worth a mini-fortune. That is the whole idea of real estate to me. Buy low, sell high.
Best of luck to all.
I bought the top floor which is always the most desirable.Well, then Saint is advising 100% differently than any other real estate agent in Buenos Aires, and also differently then the locals.
They will tell you to stay away from the top floor since the top floor always has problems with leaks etc. (Yes I know, this is not valid in New York etc, where the top floor is the Penthouse, so the most desirable.)
Insight from the Master about the market that will never correct:
Apartmentsba.com.
Intermediate Member.
Username: Saint.
Post Number: 185
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 12:11 pm: Edit PostPrint Post.
Benco,
Yes, diversification is the key. It's part of the reason why so many foreigners are interested in getting their money INTO the real estate market in Argentina. It's still relatively cheap compared to most world capital cities around the world.
I've been flying around this year to evaluate real estate in many large cities throughout the world. It's amazing the value that Buenos Aires still represents. I was recently in London where property in Kensington was over u$s 25,000 a sq. meter! In Madrid and Barcelona where I was also researching it was about u$s 12,500 per sq. meter in prime areas / buildings. In Manhattan in many developments I was looking to buy into $15,000+ per sq. meter. In the ritziest area of Recoleta I can still buy for $3,000 or less per sq. meter and what's more incredible is that I can charge more per night than I can in Madrid or Barcelona! Case in point, I rented a million dollar apartment in Barcelona and I paid u$s 250/ night. That same apartment in Buenos Aires would cost about $250,000 and I'd charge $275 per night.
Diversification is good and the sub-prime mess is only the tip of the iceberg. I called the sub-prime mess publicly about 2 years ago. I predict it will get worse as more ARM (adjustable rate mortgages) set to go higher this and next year. The foreclosure rate in the USA is at an all time high. I predict the same thing that is happening in the USA will happen in London sometime in 2009 or 2010 (maybe sooner) They are handing out money there like it's free. The real estate has gotten so expensive that the finance companies and banks are being forced to give out loans to people that shouldn't be getting loans (same thing that happened in the USA) Some of the multiple ratios relative to the salary levels are insane.
I think Benco you made excellent points. Diversification is the best thing. Yes, dollars are better than pesos but the dollar is an extremely weak currency around the world. I bought a ton of Euros and British Sterling a while back and they have all appreciated significantly and don't expect the dollar to get strong anytime soon. Look at the Canadian dollar. Remember when it was 65 cents on the dollar. In case people haven't noticed, it's 1:1 now. That should be a wake up call.
The world is a changing place. Remember when you read stories not a great while back about people starving and waiting for bread in lines in Moscow. Look what happened there now. It's the most expensive city in the world. Starbucks just moved there and a large Cappachino is almost u$s 9 there! Almost double of New York.
People are so pidgeon holed with a "the sky is falling, the sky is falling attitude" (especially as it relates to Argentina) History has proven that sometimes the best time to buy is "when the sky is supposedly falling". I saw the sub-prime mess in the USA and I'll start buying real estate again there once I feel it has hit the bottom which I think might happen in mid to late 2008. I think there will be some bargains out there. I first started buying real estate in Argentina in 2004 a good 2 years after the crash. I wish I bought at the bottom like my instincts told me and bought in 2002. Instead I wanted 2 years. Still, I'm buying more now than I did in 2004. I still believe you will see a big capital appreciation upwards in a country where there is nothing left to invest in besides real estate and the investment is in dollars NOT pesos. The locals can't and won't put their money in the bank and banks are itching to get into the mortgage market. All these things spell more supply side increase and supply side increase signals prices going higher. And you have a system that is almost all 100% cash now so these INVESTORS that bought real estate had 100% of the cash so the market is insulated and essentially bubble-proof UNLIKE the situation in the USA where it's all built on fantasy (credit)
All these guys who now claim to be market predictors and make spectacular killings by buying cheap and selling dear are just in the main, bullshitters. The local guys who do have experience are finishing up their existing projects and getting out. Why you ask? Because they can add up and figure out exchange rates, not only in U$ dollars but also in cross rates with other currencies. The truth is that property has increased in value, but not across the board, only in select localities and only in U$ dollar terms. In Euros, prices for property in the Federal Capital have fallen back, same for Canada, Australia and Japanese currencies. Property prices do not give any yield of any significance. A case in point. A good friend bought an apartment in Belgrano Bajo in 1992 for U$90K. After 16 years that is about its price today. It currently rents for U$600 per month plus expenses, actually paid in Arg pesos. Three years ago the rent was U$350. So this year's rent is U$7200, a yield of under 8%. Maintainance costs in the 16 years are upwards of U$20K. Against the Euro, the capital value has been reduced by 20% and so the reality is, the investment has lost value. And I am not factoring in the current 25% internal inflation which sure makes it look even worse.
Another point. Somewhere along the way, these guys who claim they are making the big bucks, are confused about what is the property and what is the business. Running a serviced apartment business is exactly that. A serviced apartment business. And I notice they don't deduct the management costs and the weeks where they have no guests. Hell you don't need to own the apartment to rent it out short-term. None of the successful hotel chains owns their hotels. They merely operate and pay rent as do most of the apartment / hotels in the States and Europe. Property investment is about capital growth and a yield on current value, over and above inflation.
So will all these big-noters please post their predictions for the next 2 years, expressing the yields in a convertible currency and what the capital value of the property will be in 2010. Before the game, not on the Monday morning after. Then we can see if they are as good as they claim.
Argento
Great point of view Argento,
Yes, separating what is a service with increased value, and what is an investment is a very good point. I think one of the problems for a better value on the property in Argentina it's the currency it's too attached to the US dollar. Cavallo (former econ minister) proposed in 2001 to attach the currency to an international conversion of currencies, but he did that when De la Rua was about to fall, however, Cavallo was a visionary. He did the law for peso to dollar 1=1 conversion in the 90's /
Regardless, an apartment in 2004 value was around 1.100 per sq meter and today it's 2.100 per sq meter. USD. If you invested USD, you should have a good return for your investment, but as I menctioned before, the US dollar was devaluated and that's the real problem.
All these guys who now claim to be market predictors and make spectacular killings by buying cheap and selling dear are just in the main, bullshitters. The local guys who do have experience are finishing up their existing projects and getting out. Why you ask? Because they can add up and figure out exchange rates, not only in U$ dollars but also in cross rates with other currencies. The truth is that property has increased in value, but not across the board, only in select localities and only in U$ dollar terms. In Euros, prices for property in the Federal Capital have fallen back, same for Canada, Australia and Japanese currencies. Property prices do not give any yield of any significance. A case in point. A good friend bought an apartment in Belgrano Bajo in 1992 for U$90K. After 16 years that is about its price today. It currently rents for U$600 per month plus expenses, actually paid in Arg pesos. Three years ago the rent was U$350. So this year's rent is U$7200, a yield of under 8%. Maintainance costs in the 16 years are upwards of U$20K. Against the Euro, the capital value has been reduced by 20% and so the reality is, the investment has lost value. And I am not factoring in the current 25% internal inflation which sure makes it look even worse.
Another point. Somewhere along the way, these guys who claim they are making the big bucks, are confused about what is the property and what is the business. Running a serviced apartment business is exactly that. A serviced apartment business. And I notice they don't deduct the management costs and the weeks where they have no guests. Hell you don't need to own the apartment to rent it out short-term. None of the successful hotel chains owns their hotels. They merely operate and pay rent as do most of the apartment / hotels in the States and Europe. Property investment is about capital growth and a yield on current value, over and above inflation.
So will all these big-noters please post their predictions for the next 2 years, expressing the yields in a convertible currency and what the capital value of the property will be in 2010. Before the game, not on the Monday morning after. Then we can see if they are as good as they claim.
Argento
Great point of view Argento,
Yes, separating what is a service with increased value, and what is an investiement is a very good point. I think one of the problems for a better value on the property in Argentina it's the currency it's too attached to the US dollar. Cavallo (former econ minister) proposed in 2001 to attach the currency to an international conversion of currencies, but he did that when De la Rua was about to fall, however, Cavallo was a visionary. He did the law for peso to dollar 1=1 conversion in the 90's /
Regardless, an apartment in 2004 value was around 1.100 per sq meter and today it's 2.100 per sq meter. USD. If you invested USD, you should have a good return for your investment, but as I menctioned before, the US dollar was devaluated and that's the real problem.1-1-2004: 100 m2 x 1100 dollar = 111.000 dollar - 88.000 euro.
1-1-2008: 100 m2 x 2100 dollar = 210.000 dollar - 142.000 euro.
60% over 4 years, seems like an ok deal.
Cost: 300 dollar x 12 months x 4 years = 14.400 dollar.
That would be a nett yield of over 10 percent per year, even with a declining dollar and no income on rents.
I do however think that it's really hard to sell in Argentina, that real prices are lower and that risks are a lot higher.
In Holland it's fairly easy to get 6 to 8% of nett yield on real - estate investment and about 3 to 4% if you have an account at AAA rated bank. I would think that kind of investments are a lot easier and I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
The picture changes if you pay under the table, which is pretty common in Argentina and a lot harder in the first world
210.000 dollar at 1st of April was 133.000 Euro, another huge decline
I for one think that it could be a good investment to buy an appartment in zona norte. There is a new project that sells around 1300 US dollar a square meter in Beccar and there are hardly appartments in the whole of zona norte and I am sure it can always be sold or rented out (1200/1500 peso excluding expenses) and you have a new appartment.
With prices of around 1200 to 1500 dollar there is still room for improvement and I don't think there is a lot of room if you go upwards the 2500 dollar like in some parts of Capital
Precocious One
04-11-08, 11:27
All these guys who now claim to be market predictors and make spectacular killings by buying cheap and selling dear are just in the main, bullshitters. The local guys who do have experience are finishing up their existing projects and getting out. Why you ask? Because they can add up and figure out exchange rates, not only in U$ dollars but also in cross rates with other currencies. The truth is that property has increased in value, but not across the board, only in select localities and only in U$ dollar terms. In Euros, prices for property in the Federal Capital have fallen back, same for Canada, Australia and Japanese currencies. Property prices do not give any yield of any significance. A case in point. A good friend bought an apartment in Belgrano Bajo in 1992 for U$90K. After 16 years that is about its price today. It currently rents for U$600 per month plus expenses, actually paid in Arg pesos. Three years ago the rent was U$350. So this year's rent is U$7200, a yield of under 8%. Maintainance costs in the 16 years are upwards of U$20K. Against the Euro, the capital value has been reduced by 20% and so the reality is, the investment has lost value. And I am not factoring in the current 25% internal inflation which sure makes it look even worse.
Another point. Somewhere along the way, these guys who claim they are making the big bucks, are confused about what is the property and what is the business. Running a serviced apartment business is exactly that. A serviced apartment business. And I notice they don't deduct the management costs and the weeks where they have no guests. Hell you don't need to own the apartment to rent it out short-term. None of the successful hotel chains owns their hotels. They merely operate and pay rent as do most of the apartment / hotels in the States and Europe. Property investment is about capital growth and a yield on current value, over and above inflation.
So will all these big-noters please post their predictions for the next 2 years, expressing the yields in a convertible currency and what the capital value of the property will be in 2010. Before the game, not on the Monday morning after. Then we can see if they are as good as they claim.
ArgentoGreat post. Many areas in the US, namely FL, CA and AZ are going to be selling for well under just the build costs.
And we are talking relatively new construction in both RRE and CRE.
Actually, some of these areas already are.
CarneValistico
04-11-08, 11:34
Dear fellows,
First of all thank you to all the guys who wrote the pros and conts regarding real estate in BA.
Since a few months I am considering buying a nice apartment in BA, Last year allready I wanted to do so, but instead of arriving in BA, I opened a new company in Moldova. Ok, so far so good.
In the meantime the $ against Euro changed downwards, and I ask myself if it is now the right time to act. Its realy funny to read the stuff from July last year and what turned into reality now. There had been the metapher of " blood in the street " I. E. Waiting for falling prices, and as far as I could read now, its quite.
Gettingthis direction. I have no intentions in renting this apartment, and I don't care about inflation, I am 46 years and just want to have a " stronghold " here, while I am working in EE.
So guys, 80-120m2, 3-4 rooms, (may I dream of a little penthouse or maisonett / splittlevel apartment?) what is the actual price or shall I buy a piece of land in the nearer outscirts, and build a little bungalow there?
Muchas gracias amigos! I wish you all a wonderful weekend, yours C.
Dear fellows,
First of all thank you to all the guys who wrote the pros and conts regarding real estate in BA.
Since a few months I am considering buying a nice apartment in BA, Last year allready I wanted to do so, but instead of arriving in BA, I opened a new company in Moldova. Ok, so far so good.
In the meantime the $ against Euro changed downwards, and I ask myself if it is now the right time to act. Its realy funny to read the stuff from July last year and what turned into reality now. There had been the metapher of " blood in the street " I. E. Waiting for falling prices, and as far as I could read now, its quite.
Gettingthis direction. I have no intentions in renting this apartment, and I don't care about inflation, I am 46 years and just want to have a " stronghold " here, while I am working in EE.
So guys, 80-120m2, 3-4 rooms, (may I dream of a little penthouse or maisonett / splittlevel apartment? What is the actual price or shall I buy a piece of land in the nearer outscirts, and build a little bungalow there?
Muchas gracias amigos! I wish you all a wonderful weekend, yours C.Somewhere between 800 and 3500 dollar a square meter. It's hard to say anything if you don't tell where you want to live but most foreigner live probally in Barrio Norte or Palermo and prices there are between 1500 and 2500 a m2
I would think that buying a piece of land is not really smart as you are a foreigner with very little experience about local laws, customs, etc, etc. The only area where you probally want to live is zona norte and there is very little room and lands are expensive.
Maybe a barrio-privado is an idea? It's a gated communitiy with security and often a golf course, swimming-pool, tennis-courts, etc. They are mainly in the suburbs near a highway and prices probally start at 70 to 80.000 dollar for a small home with a small garden
CarneValistico
04-11-08, 16:03
Dear friend,
This is a classical case of beining " blind " on one eye - yes, a little house or a sunny apartment in such a " gated comunity " could be a smart option, cool man!
I am a builder and know how to build a wall, but a keyready solution, ie, such as you suggested, is a very nice compromise, arrive, grab the key open the entrance and thats it, meanwhile its guarded and the price you anounced is reasonable.
Would you please tell me where could I find such an estate, and maybe you have some websites for me?
If I am going to signe a contract you will not be forgoten, I promisse you that!
Thanks again man! Yours, C.
Sunday's edition of La Nacion (Argentininian newspaper) has a chapter of about 20 pages with all the information of countries (gated communities) in greater BA you could possibly want
CarneValistico
04-11-08, 17:03
Redondo, I will tell you early enough when I come down to BA. If it is possible for you - you may assist me in that. I will try to get Roxannas driving skills, so that we are able to look arround. If that sounds good for you, you may PM me.
Thank you, C.
Redondo, I will tell you early enough when I come down to BA. If it is possible for you - you may assist me in that. I will try to get Roxannas driving skills, so that we are able to look arround. If that sounds good for you, you may PM me.
Thank you, C.CarneValistico. Buy a map of greater Bs As. I am not so sure that you would want to live 30k North-West of the downdown area. It's Mum and Dad and the 3 little kiddies stuff. And you are 1 hour away at a minimum from down-town. And there is sweet fuck-all in between that is worth that effort. And remember, gated communities here are not all that secure. As a foreigner here only occasionally, the guys on security will pass that information on and their friends will turn you over on a regular basis, stealing everything of value including the wiring, wrecking your house in the process.
Buy a PH which is a usually a single entrance to 3 or 4 dwellings, usually all ground floor. Suburbs to look in are Palermo and Belgrano. Get a quiet street with no buses. You will get good security, most are owner occupied and so have a vested interest in the security and ambiance and the price for one in fair condition, say about 100m2, will be about U$80k. And down-town is a 20 minute ride with a variety of transport. But Beccar, God forbid. By the tenor of Redondo's posts, he could probably sell you one at a good price. At least for some peculiar reason, he offered his own opinion. Maybe you could share with him!
Suerte.
Argento
CarneValistico. Buy a map of greater Bs As. I am not so sure that you would want to live 30k North-West of the downdown area. It's Mum and Dad and the 3 little kiddies stuff. And you are 1 hour away at a minimum from down-town. And there is sweet fuck-all in between that is worth that effort. And remember, gated communities here are not all that secure. As a foreigner here only occasionally, the guys on security will pass that information on and their friends will turn you over on a regular basis, stealing everything of value including the wiring, wrecking your house in the process.
Buy a PH which is a usually a single entrance to 3 or 4 dwellings, usually all ground floor. Suburbs to look in are Palermo and Belgrano. Get a quiet street with no buses. You will get good security, most are owner occupied and so have a vested interest in the security and ambiance and the price for one in fair condition, say about 100m2, will be about U$80k. And down-town is a 20 minute ride with a variety of transport. But Beccar, God forbid. By the tenor of Redondo's posts, he could probably sell you one at a good price. At least for some peculiar reason, he offered his own opinion. Maybe you could share with him!
Suerte.
ArgentoBeccar is San Isidro, one of the best Municipalities in the whole of gran BA and about 35 to 40 minutes from Micro Centro by public transport and about 45 minutes by car. It takes longer to go Microcentro in many parts of Capital.
The going rate for 1 m2 in Belgrano or Palermo is not 800 dollar, but a lot closer to twice that amount
Is a great place to look for properties that can be rented when you are not here. There are still many pretty good deals if you are prepared to look at properties while here and do some leg work yourself. I have a place in Congresso on the park at Rivadavia. The building I bought into is in good shape. This is very importante if you are buying in BsAs. Make sure the building is is overall good shape (if you are buying onto neo-classical French architecture like I did) Find out what the fees are. In my building for exampelle we pay no municipal taxes because of the age of the building and the fact it is a landmark building. The "La Inmobliari" building at the bottom of Congresso park is an example where there is a large apartment available for a very reasonable 150k$ for about 2500 sq ft (~250 sq m - I know it is not exact) with a very large outdoor terrace, but the building is in poor shape (La Moncloa restaurante is in the bottom) I like the views in Congresso but the traffic is loud and I am at the top of my building (my bedroom is like 13 floors UP) Anyway, a find like the one I bought in New York or Europe in any of the major cities I would care to live in would have been HUGE - certainly over one million euros or one million US$ and I ought for a fraction of that. I think Palermo Hollywood is very good right now. Francis Ford Coppola certainly thinks so and so do I. Palermo SoHo not so much and San Telmo - stay away - its too far down yet. Recoletta is overpriced but there are some good deals and Belgrano and Palermo in general are good places to scout.
Check out the real estate listings in Craigslis.org under world cities - Beunos Aires and Suerte
Beccar is San Isidro, one of the best Municipalities in the whole of gran BA and about 35 to 40 minutes from Micro Centro by public transport and about 45 minutes by car. It takes longer to go Microcentro in many parts of Capital.
The going rate for 1 m2 in Belgrano or Palermo is not 800 dollar, but a lot closer to twice that amountI beg to differ. When was the last time you looked at PH's in Palermo? Or better still, when was the last time you stopped off and spent some time there? There are any amount of 80m2 to 100m2 PHs available around here. If you got off the train and looked in at the lists on display at the ten million real estate shopfronts, the prices rarely exceed U$80k. Oh, and I forgot, you must think that you are the only person who has travelled from Beccar to the Microcentre. Sure you can do it in 45 minutes but not in normal hours. And as you probably have your cock in your paw as you are driving, you probably run a few red lights in the excitement, saving even more time.
Argento.
You kill me. "Cock in your Paw". Heheh Could be a great name for a British style Mongering Pub:)
Of course the picture would have to be cleaned up for the kiddies. A "Hen in Hand" is another good one:)
Tony
Well I got to hand it to you Redondo, you actually are posting some interesting information (although it has nothing to do with women)
I would say prices vary depending on the location, the building category, age, prestige and the actual floor the apartment is on, building height etc. I will list new building prices below.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
New building prices*
Palermo Nuevo (the neighborhood I am currently purchasing in) and Palermo Chico are some of the priciest neighborhoods in Palermo (anywhere from $ 2000-$ 3500 a sq meter) Las Canitas is around $ 1800-2200 And Palermo Hollywood is around $1600-2000. Then Palermo SoHo and Palermo Viejo are around $ 1500-$ 1900 (I actually disagree with the newbie poster below, I think these prices are what make SoHo and Viejo some of the most attractive real estate investments in the whole city)
I stay completely away from Recoleta for many different reasons, but prices there are easily $ 2000-3000 a sq meter. And I stay completely away from anything in the center (it's like living in downtown LA) San Telmo is a place where you can still get big apartments at extremely low prices.
I think there are always good deals if you are lucky and bide your time. But if you are looking for a good cheap deal, stay away from brand new buildings in the nicer neighborhoods. Try finding a nice fixer upper in an older building. Prices for brand new apartments in brand new buildings in Palermo are at least $ 1500-1800 a sq meter.
Regards,
BM.
Well I got to hand it to you Redondo, you actually are posting some interesting information (although it has nothing to do with women)
I would say prices vary depending on the location, the building category, age, prestige and the actual floor the apartment is on, building height etc. I will list new building prices below.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
New building prices*
Palermo Nuevo (the neighborhood I am currently purchasing in) and Palermo Chico are some of the priciest neighborhoods in Palermo (anywhere from $ 2000-$ 3500 a sq meter) Las Canitas is around $ 1800-2200 And Palermo Hollywood is around $1600-2000. Then Palermo SoHo and Palermo Viejo are around $ 1500-$ 1900 (I actually disagree with the newbie poster below, I think these prices are what make SoHo and Viejo some of the most attractive real estate investments in the whole city)
I stay completely away from Recoleta for many different reasons, but prices there are easily $ 2000-3000 a sq meter. And I stay completely away from anything in the center (it's like living in downtown LA) San Telmo is a place where you can still get big apartments at extremely low prices.
I think there are always good deals if you are lucky and bide your time. But if you are looking for a good cheap deal, stay away from brand new buildings in the nicer neighborhoods. Try finding a nice fixer upper in an older building. Prices for brand new apartments in brand new buildings in Palermo are at least $ 1500-1800 a sq meter.
Regards,
BM.You are wrong, going rate for Palermo is 800 dollars a m2. Just ask Argento
[QUOTE=Redondo]Beccar is San Isidro, one of the best Municipalities in the whole of gran BA and about 35 to 40 minutes from Micro Centro by public transport and about 45 minutes by car. It takes longer to go Microcentro in many parts of Capital.
The going rate for 1 m2 in Belgrano or Palermo is not 800 dollar, but a lot closer to twice that amount[/ QUOTE]I beg to differ. When was the last time you looked at PH's in Palermo? Or better still, when was the last time you stopped off and spent some time there? There are any amount of 80m2 to 100m2 PHs available around here. If you got off the train and looked in at the lists on display at the ten million real estate shopfronts, the prices rarely exceed U$80k. Oh, and I forgot, you must think that you are the only person who has travelled from Beccar to the Microcentre. Sure you can do it in 45 minutes but not in normal hours. And as you probably have your cock in your paw as you are driving, you probably run a few red lights in the excitement, saving even more time.
Argento.You are right with your 800 dollar a m2
Retiro - Beccar is about 35 minutes, 10 minutes walking, waiting makes about 45 to 50 minutes.
As I don't depend on a job in Argentina (Carne probally neither) I can travel to Capital when I want and if you avoid rush hours it's about 45 minutes. But either way it would make more sense to take the Mitre because you can get off in every good part of town (Nunez, Belgrano, Palermo, Recoleta, Microcentre)
CarneValistico
04-12-08, 11:28
To all fellows,
I am realy greatful for the infos, be sure I do not take the first apartment I see.
I recieved one offer which is allready in my interest, but I will look arround first because I nail something.
If its done I will officialy anounce it and if you guys don't mind I will cook something european and invite you for a "move in" party. I pay the drinks, you all pay the chicks - hehehehe, just kidding.
Anywayy, we will have some nice BBQ and than we see what will happen later.
BUT. No shagging in my future shower!;-)
Have a great weekend, yours C.
[QUOTE=Argento]You are right with your 800 dollar a m2
Retiro - Beccar is about 35 minutes, 10 minutes walking, waiting makes about 45 to 50 minutes.
As I don't depend on a job in Argentina (Carne probally neither) I can travel to Capital when I want and if you avoid rush hours it's about 45 minutes. But either way it would make more sense to take the Mitre because you can get off in every good part of town (Nunez, Belgrano, Palermo, Recoleta, Microcentre)Pleased you recognised the facts. Thanks.
And on public transport, you must include the time getting to the collection point, waiting for the train or bus as well as getting to your ultimate destination from the distribution point. Not quite the same as starting up the car and going there.
[QUOTE=Redondo]Pleased you recognised the facts. Thanks.
And on public transport, you must include the time getting to the collection point, waiting for the train or bus as well as getting to your ultimate destination from the distribution point. Not quite the same as starting up the car and going there.I included that in my point. It's about 45-50 minutes door to door and a bit less for locations in Nunez, Palermo or Recoleta.
It can easily beat many locations in Capital especially the ones that are not close to the subte, and there is no need to go with the sucky collectivos.
I would probally not go a lot with a car to Capital but mainly use the car to get around in Zona norte (that is a need, especially if you have kids) and interior.
It's sucks to go with a car to capital and if you do you should go outside rush hours, but it sucks as well to have a car in Capital, so not a lot difference there
Why would anyone want to invest in a country with 20 to 25 precent inflation, especialy if the terms are all cash in US dollars.
The next "Crisis" or revolution will more than likely be over the uncontrolable inflation in Argentina. A country in which 25 % of the people live below the poverty level.
There's big trouble brewing in Argentina and its not more than two or three years away.
Real Estate is like politics, its all local, location, location as they say in real estate. So why invest in a third world economy with 20 percent unemployment when you rent the property cheaper that you can own in.
Real Estate in Argentina is a form of cash, they can't trust their banks or the government so the Argentine's put their money in property and hope to rent it.
As an example each day Craigs List has Ad's http://buenosaires.en.craigslist.org/apa/ plus all the rental agencys.
Exon
[QUOTE=Redondo]Pleased you recognised the facts. Thanks.
And on public transport, you must include the time getting to the collection point, waiting for the train or bus as well as getting to your ultimate destination from the distribution point. Not quite the same as starting up the car and going there.From where I live (Hudson - 35Km from BA) it takes me about 30 minutes (door to door) by car to Cordoba and 9 de Julio - by bus that goes along autopista (exactly the same route as I take with my car) I have to calculate (with the wait) about one and a quarter hours. During rush hour add 40 minutes to both car and bus!
[QUOTE=Argento]From where I live (Hudson - 35Km from BA) it takes me about 30 minutes (door to door) by car to Cordoba and 9 de Julio - by bus that goes along autopista (exactly the same route as I take with my car) I have to calculate (with the wait) about one and a quarter hours. During rush hour add 40 minutes to both car and bus!And hope to God if you take the bus option, there is a seat, sin chorros, be aware there is no air conditioning and no stereo or radio of your choosing. And hope that your ultimate destination is Cordoba & 9 de Julio, which will be highly unlikely.
Argento
Why would anyone want to invest in a country with 20 to 25 precent inflation, especialy if the terms are all cash in US dollars.
The next "Crisis" or revolution will more than likely be over the uncontrolable inflation in Argentina. A country in which 25 % of the people live below the poverty level.
There's big trouble brewing in Argentina and its not more than two or three years away.
Real Estate is like politics, its all local, location, location as they say in real estate. So why invest in a third world economy with 20 percent unemployment when you rent the property cheaper that you can own in.
Real Estate in Argentina is a form of cash, they can't trust their banks or the government so the Argentine's put their money in property and hope to rent it.
As an example each day Craigs List has Ad's http://buenosaires.en.craigslist.org/apa/ plus all the rental agencys.
ExonAnyone who bought in 2002 untill 2005 and sold in 2007 or 2008 made shitload of money.
You have people that don't want to rent, you have people that have family in Argentina, have kids in Argentina, etc.
Either way you always need to have homes for people and the population is still pretty young if you compare it to most first world country, so there will always be people that want to rent or buy.
Argentina real estate is also a refuge for putting money in the bank and this will not change with an economic crisis
Anyone who bought in 2002 untill 2005 and sold in 2007 or 2008 made shitload of money.In percentage terms, what's a shitload? In Palermo for example? In percentage terms, in U$ and in Euros. I figure my house has appreciated 100% in U$ dollar terms, but I have spent U$50k and still going for sub-standard work, much needing repeating. In U$ cross rates with Euros, I have made a loss and in $Australia, my base currency, I guess I am treading water.
So what is a shitload?
[QUOTE=Aqualung]And hope to God if you take the bus option, there is a seat, sin chorros, be aware there is no airconditioning and no stereo or radio of your choosing. And hope that your ultimate destination is Cordoba & 9 de Julio, which will be highly unlikely.
ArgentoI don't about that bus but there is nothing wrong with Plaza or Chevallier to La Plata.
I for one can understand that anybody who has investments with an annual pay-out of about 15 to 30k and about 100k in dollars in cash to buy an appartment in BA.
With 100 to 150 peso a day you can still have a pretty good life in BA and quality of life is pretty high.
You could offcourse also buy an appartment in the first world for about 300 to 800k but in the first case you could spend 8000 dollar a year and in the second case about 28.000 dollar if you base it on a ROI of 4%. With a ROI of 6% annual it's 12k and 42k.
You offcourse can get a mortage, but that also means that you have to mortage your future and if you own in BA you are more independent and from the money you spend on your mortage you can still have a pretty good life.
I think that if inflation is so high that you can't have a decent life for about 2000 to 3000 dollar a month most foreigners will leave
I for one can understand that anybody who has investments with an annual pay-out of about 15 to 30k and about 100k in dollars in cash to buy an appartment in BA.
With 100 to 150 peso a day you can still have a pretty good life in BA and quality of life is pretty high.
You could offcourse also buy an appartment in the first world for about 300 to 800k but in the first case you could spend 8000 dollar a year and in the second case about 28.000 dollar if you base it on a ROI of 4%. With a ROI of 6% annual it's 12k and 42k.
You offcourse can get a mortage, but that also means that you have to mortage your future and if you own in BA you are more independent and from the money you spend on your mortage you can still have a pretty good life.
I think that if inflation is so high that you can't have a decent life for about 2000 to 3000 dollar a month most foreigners will leaveStick to the fuckin' point you frustrating piece of God's knows what. You make unsubstanciated posts, get shot down in flames, never stay on the subject and now it appears, your skin is so thick, you don't just get the point. Your economics for the past 2 years hasn't improved. My guess is your source of money is a family in Holland who willing gives you the money to live here so they don't have to put up with your drivel. Pity us!
Argento
Wow @ all the hate on this thread.
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