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Lunico
06-28-08, 00:14
Memories of 1978, good and bad, roil Argentina.

The country's first soccer World Cup victory 30 years ago brought an outpouring of national pride that some say was manipulated by the brutal dictatorship of the time to increase its hold on power.

By Patrick J. McDonnell, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer.

June 28, 2008

BUENOS AIRES -- It was June 1978, the worst of times for a nation in the vise of dictatorship. And the best of times for soccer-obsessed Argentines.

Argentina won its first championship 30 years ago this month, in the only World Cup tournament to be played here. The victory caused a torrent of nationalist pride in a country beaten down by repression.

But the biggest winners probably were the junta leaders, who scored a massive propaganda coup that set back fledgling international efforts to expose their bloody excesses. For Gen. Jorge Rafael Videla and other junta chiefs, futbol was a convenient means to switch the conversation away from the mounting number of victims casually labeled "the disappeared"-- then a catchy new rhetorical surrogate for mass murder.

Three decades later, many Argentines, including some now-graying members of the 1978 national squad, have begun re-examining the dictatorship's overt politicization of the World Cup victory. Several are expected to participate in a symbolic soccer game to commemorate the regime's victims, scheduled for Sunday. The match is to be played at the River Plate Monumental Stadium -- he same venue where Argentina defeated the Netherlands 3-1 in the hard-fought final on June 25, 1978.

Some commentators now liken that championship to the century's most notorious political manipulation of sports -- the 1936 Berlin Olympics, coopted as a perverse paean to Hitler's Nazi ideology.

"The 1978 World Cup was a gold brooch for repression, a mundial [cup]that was made to wash the faces of the murderers. In front of the world," said Mabel Gutierrez, among the organizers of anniversary events focusing on human rights.

The River Plate stadium is less than a mile away from what was once one of the junta's most notorious torture centers, the Naval Mechanics School, where some 5,000 were held and are believed to have been "disappeared." Prisoners could hear the cheers emanating from the nearby field.

Surviving detainees have recalled Kafkaesque scenes of interrogators taking time out to root for the home team. Guards even encouraged shackled, hooded and half-conscious prisoners to join in the merry-making.

"We won! We won!" the lockup's notorious chief of intelligence, Jorge "El Tigre" (The Tiger) Acosta, shouted over and over, recalled Graciela Daleo, a survivor. "When he said, 'We won,' I was certain that we had lost," Daleo said in a seminal documentary film made here examining the "parallel history" of the 1978 championship. "And we did lose."

On that evening, Daleo says, she was among a number of inmates taken for a surreal jaunt: Jailers whisked her and others off in a Peugeot 504 sedan and drove among the celebrating masses on the streets of a delirious capital.

Daleo stuck her head though the sedan's sun-roof into the chilly evening to view the unbridled, madcap revelry.

"I stood up on the seat and looked at that multitude," Daleo recalled. "That was another moment of terrible solitude. I was crying. I was certain that if I began to shout that I was a 'disappeared,' then no one would even notice."

Today, analysts say the victory tightened the junta's stranglehold on power and emboldened the generals in their nefarious ways, weakening efforts in Europe and the United States to isolate them. The dictatorship would remain in power for another five years.

Junta chief Videla, today widely disparaged as a homicidal thug, regularly lambasted what he termed as a global "anti-Argentine campaign" during the 1978 championship and received half a dozen standing ovations in packed stadiums. Dissenting voices were denigrated as lacking in patriotism.

Rumors persist to this day that Videla somehow fixed Argentina's 6-0 victory against Peru, a triumph that clinched a berth in the finals. But no proof has emerged.

During the games, Videla welcomed Henry Kissinger to add an air of legitimacy. The former U. S. Secretary of state and avid soccer fan traveled here with his family for the spectacle, playing to the cameras.

"Millions succumbed before the official viewpoint that the sporting victory was the triumph of a people at peace," Pablo Llonto wrote in book about 1978 entitled "The Shame of All."

For years, many Argentine stars who played on the national team reacted defensively to allegations that their actions aided the generals. The coach of the 1978 team, Cesar Luis Menotti, has long argued the Argentina's triumph should not be de-valued.

"I have nothing to regret," the lanky ex-coach stated in the documentary. "I was very loyal to my team and to the people."

But others appear more ready to acknowledge political maneuvering, while defending players' responses.

"There is no doubt that we were used politically," Julio Ricardo Villa, a forward on the team, told the filmmakers.

The recognition of political exploitation has been a gradual one, said Ezequiel Fernandez Moores, the film's screenwriter. Like many Argentines who lived through the period, most players say they knew nothing of the large-scale political kidnapping, torture and assassinations.

"The contradiction only became evident in time when everyone learned of the horror" of the period, said Fernandez Moores. "This has produced in some people a sense of guilt, in others shame. While others still believe that the victory in the World Cup should not be linked to the dictatorship."

patrick. Mcdonnell@latimes. Com

Andres D'Alessandro in The Times' Buenos Aires Bureau contributed to this report.

Dominicfla
07-01-08, 00:06
Quasi-relatedly, let me recommend a much-acclaimed book that takes place in Argentina during this period: Nathan Englander's "The Ministry of Special Cases".

My previous two visits to BA gave the novel a bit more depth, as does my being Jewish (as is the novel's main character) but neither are a prerequisite to experiencing this harrowing, haunting tale of Argentina during the junta and the effect on a family when their son becomes one of the "disappeared". I would be interested in hearing other forum members' thoughts about this book (Jackson, sorry if this is the wrong forum - - I hadn't seen the book mentioned elsewhere)

Stormy
07-01-08, 15:36
I also found the book to be excellent. Both for the depictions of the horror of the time of the disappeared and the sharp contrast between the lives of the successful upper class Jews and those of the blue collar or even criminal types who were also part of the history of that community, though a history that was ignored, rejected or covered up.

SteveC
07-01-08, 17:42
Peter 'Redondo' Europa,

We had this debate a while ago. You again quote 8,900 as the number of disappeared. You must be a fan of the torturers, rapists, and thieving bastards (talking about the babies of the young girls they tortured to death) to continue repeating this canard. I gave you plenty of references for you to check so you would wise up. Maybe that's asking too much of you. The generally accepted estimates vary from around 23,000 up to 30,000.

If you'd bother to do the minimum of research, there are plenty of sources, such as survivors' reports, of the nazi ideology of many of your friends, sorry, the repressores.

SteveC
07-01-08, 18:03
Redondo,

Can you quote a reference?

Monger514
07-01-08, 18:10
8900 is the official number of the Argentine stateYou can trust those guys.

Monger514
07-01-08, 18:11
Who is Redondo?If you had read "Redondo's Greatest Hits" you would know already. Or, you could just look in the mirror.

SteveC
07-01-08, 18:36
Redondo,

Still waiting for the reference for your number. By reference I mean a published source. Then we can compare the credibility of our respective sources.

Andres
07-01-08, 19:27
Redondo,

Still waiting for the reference for your number. By reference I mean a published source. Then we can compare the credibility of our respective sources.The book briefing the CONADEP Commission Report ("Nunca Más") refers to almost 9,000 cases. It is estimated that there were many times more (30,000 or so)

Andres

El Perro
07-01-08, 20:12
By whom?

There are people who say the Holocaust never happend, does that make it true as well then?Pee You Ropa has got an odor about him.

SteveC
07-01-08, 20:48
Redondo,

An apt remark about the Holocaust. By admitting to only 8,900 disappeared, you're denying the disappearance of maybe around 20,000 more.

And why the new handle? We all know who you are.

Aqualung
07-01-08, 21:11
The book briefing the CONADEP Commission Report ("Nunca Más") refers to almost 9,000 cases. It is estimated that there were many times more (30,000 or so)

AndresThe cases reported in the CONADEP are the only cases. Just imagine for a moment over 20 thousand families with a disappeared member and not one coming forward to complain about the absence of their family member in the report!

The use of the passive voice (it is estimated) is one of the most common ways of creating fallacies.

Who estimates? And using what information does that person reach the mentioned estimation?

The issue with the disappearances is that - First, there is no death penalty in Argentina and the disappeared are presumed to be executed (I have proof that not all but that's another story and I did say I have PROOF) and second, as they were not legally tried by any court one can only say that some of them (maybe many of them) were far from innocent young kids. They were vicious terrorists with no qualms about placing bombs and killing whoever was near but there is no way of pointing them out one by one and listing their crimes!

(Just last Tuesday I went to visit an old friend of mine. She's stone deaf and has deep scars on her face (and soul) She was sitting at a bar table when a bomb evaporated the girl sitting in front of her together with 42 other people. The fact that there was a column between her and the bomb saved her.

Another thing - Just reason this out: "Daleo stuck her head though the sedan's sun-roof into the chilly evening to view the unbridled, madcap revelry." and she could stand on the car seat and hold her head out of the sunroof without being able to escape from her captors or call for help? Come on! This is bullshit that offends my intelligence. And I invite anyone who wants to to try and put his head out of a 504s sunroof. It takes a hell of a lot of collaboration between those inside the car and the person sticking his head out.

I won't post here any more about this topic but I have no problem in continuing the conversation personally.

SteveC
07-01-08, 23:04
Redondo,

You've got a short memory. When you say "There is no reason to doubt the 8900 number as it serves no purpose" you must have forgotten my previous reply to you on this subject from 12/16/07. Note that the CONADEP report made clear that many more <disappeared> could exist than the number given in the report. The source quoted is in Spanish but is an Argentine military source from July 1978 admitting to at least 22,000 dead or disappeared. The link again for you to check is.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/19780715%20%5BReport%20on%20Argentina%27s%20dissappeared%5D%20A0000514c.pd

Here's a link where Commander Suarez Mason (army commander 1st Corps, Buenos Aires) admits to signing 50 to 100 death warrants a day over a long period. And that's in just one unit.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB73/790510.pdf

And Aqualung, your assertion that "The cases reported in the CONADEP are the only cases", just isn't true. And I have proof. The uncle of a very good friend of mine was a lawyer filing habeus corpus cases. He was warned to get out the country, and got to the airport to leave. At the last minute he changed his mind and continued. A few weeks later they dragged him out of his house and his wife, kids and family have never seen him again. Maybe he's still on holiday in Miami like the apologists for the military say, but I doubt it. And his name isn't in the CONADEP list. I can't tell you why, but there's one to add to your count.

A 'bon mot' from US Embassy Political Officer Tex Harris in a letter 4/26/78 "Argentina is the only country in the world where you are safe in the streets, but not in your own home".

Still, 10,000, 20,000, 30,000, just too many.

SteveC
07-01-08, 23:49
Redondo,

Sorry about the faulty link. I copied it correctly, but its not working when I post it here. You'll just have to be patient until it works again, or cut and paste it into your browser; I can make it work that way. But, I'm not sure that you'll bother to investigate anything that challenges your prejudices.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB185/19780715%20%5BReport%20on%20Argentina%27s%20dissappeared%5D%20A0000514c.pd

And the source, as I've already told you, is the National security achrives. (a non-profit research and archival institution located within The George Washington University in Washington, D. C. A well respected institution as you can imagine.

It maybe is an 'obscure document', but its authentic. If you disagree with it give your reasons, preferably with sources.

Dickhead
07-02-08, 04:33
I just reviewed all of Steve C's posts and none of them add any value, and none of them have anything to do with pussy. So why in the fuck are you on this forum anyway, Steve? Mostly you chase Redondo around.

I remember when this forum used to be about pussy.

Jackson, if you have an exit strategy you might consider implementing it soon.

Monger514
07-02-08, 10:30
I just reviewed all of Steve C's posts and none of them add any value, and none of them have anything to do with pussy. So why in the fuck are you on this forum anyway, Steve? Mostly you chase Redondo around.

I remember when this forum used to be about pussy.

Jackson, if you have an exit strategy you might consider implementing it soon.DH, are you just picking on SteveC, or complaining about lack of pussy posts in general?

This is the "Living in Argentina" thread, and there's no sign on the forum that says "You must post pussy reviews before posting in non-pussy threads". Now, maybe there should be, but there ain't.

His posts are at least informative and coherent, as opposed to Redondo.

Dickhead
07-02-08, 12:57
Pretty much both. I looked at all of his posts and saw nothing informative, and nothing ever about mongering. I think he has a different agenda and there is too much of that shit. Look at the stated purpose of the forum.

Britney Spears (or however she spells her first name) is informative, compared to Redondo.

SteveC
07-02-08, 15:49
Dickhead,

No hidden agenda, just interested in living in Argentina, the economy, politics, ATMs, residencia, property, and anything affecting my life here in Argentina. I check a few blogs and boards re life in Argentina and Buenos Aries in particular, and this board can be pretty informative.

I don't post anything on mongering because since living here I've had two long term girlfriends and a few short term ones. All regular women, non-pros, and I think it would be a definite lack of class to discuss them here. But, if there's a minimum quota of 'pussy' related posts to fulfill, I guess I'd better stop posting. And maybe Jackson should remove these threads, apart from privados, clubs, etc.

As for following Redondo around, I actually put him on my ignore list, as you would have seen if you'd read all my posts. Now I should do the same for his latest personna. I shouldn't take the bait when these apologists for the dictatorship post their shit.

As for you, you're the wittiest writer here, but you can be a cranky fucker all the same.

Dickhead
07-02-08, 16:06
Actually I used the search function to view your posts, which (luckily) does not show me anything about Redondo, who along with Piss In Your Ropa is also on my ignore list.

I prefer to think of myself as a curmudgeon, rather than "cranky," which sounds so negative.

This board used to be for mongers but now it is more like a slick cookbook for the two-yacht set. Sad, really. But maybe RockHarder's latest wave of posts will get things moving in that direction again.

Jackson
07-02-08, 16:30
This board used to be for mongers but now it is more like a slick cookbook for the two-yacht set. Sad, really. But maybe RockHarder's latest wave of posts will get things moving in that direction again.If you don't like this forum, you are welcome to leave.

Jackson

SteveC
07-02-08, 16:41
Dickhead,

Just checked online:

Curmudgeon definition.

Cur·mudg·eon (k ər muj ′ən)

Noun.

A surly, ill-mannered, bad-tempered person; cantankerous fellow.

I'm sure there are better definitions. You could never be any of these things surely! And regretably, the only yacht I've ever been on was very small, and not mine.

Jackson
07-02-08, 16:44
Dickhead,

Just checked online:

Curmudgeon definition.

Cur·mudg·eon (k ər muj ′ən)

Noun.

A surly, ill-mannered, bad-tempered person; cantankerous fellow.

I'm sure there are better definitions. You could never be any of these things surely! And regretably, the only yacht I've ever been on was very small, and not mine.Hi SteveC,

That definition fits DH perfectly.

Thanks,

Jackson

Andres
07-02-08, 21:23
The cases reported in the CONADEP are the only cases. Just imagine for a moment over 20 thousand families with a disappeared member and not one coming forward to complain about the absence of their family member in the report!I know the case of a real family entirely kidnapped. They had a nice small company and had nothing to do with politics, but some criminals in the "Task Forces" thought that their "patriotic services" could be paid by seizing their assets and evaporating them.

In fact, many of these criminal bands working for the Armed Forces, when democracy came back, started kidnapping wealthy executives (Sivak, Neuman, etc) Do a search for the Arquimedes Puccio gang on Internet.

As in many societies, these kind of bloody processes benefit criminals first.

I won't give here the real name of the family, but I invite you to revise the most representative cases to see that many people from the same family were kidnapped. For instance, the one from De Vincenti-Villaflor family.


The use of the passive voice (it is estimated) is one of the most common ways of creating fallacies.

Who estimates? And using what information does that person reach the mentioned estimation?More than 60% of those missing were low to intermediate level union representatives, mostly coming from uneducated homes. Not surprising then that many cases from these kind of families were unreported.


The issue with the disappearances is that - First, there is no death penalty in Argentina and the disappeared are presumed to be executed (I have proof that not all but that's another story and I did say I have PROOF) and second, as they were not legally tried by any court one can only say that some of them (maybe many of them) were far from innocent young kids. They were vicious terrorists with no qualms about placing bombs and killing whoever was near but there is no way of pointing them out one by one and listing their crimes!If they were vicious terrorist, it would be very easy to bring them in court and send them to jail, wouldn't it? Also, by clearly naming them and pointing out their crimes under duly-procedural courts, militaries would earn credibility.

When such slaughters happen, usually there is a hidden agenda to move forward, an agenda that wouldn't be easily carried out in a well-balanced, democratic society.

Andres