View Full Version : Racism in Argentina
Hi all, kinda new to this forum.
How do BA girls in general perceive on asian guy?
Any advise is greatly appreciated!
Hi all, kinda new to this forum and tried to find thread relating to cafes and coffee shops.
What's exactly are cafes and coffee shops here in BA? Are these really places to get coffee and hang out and find working girls? Let say you find a wg in the cafe or coffee shop. Do you negotiate on the spot? How do BA girls in general perceive on asian guy?
Any advise is greatly appreciated!There are several pages about coffee shops the most popular is orleans, under the same section you started the thread: Argentina Private > Finding Chicas > Cafes and Coffee Shops.
The problem with your other question is that a similar question started desagreements in the members opinions several years ago. I would say that working girls in BA are not racist, if that was your question. Ah, and remember that renting apartments is much better than wasting your money at the hotels!
Gato Hunter
07-29-08, 05:54
You being Asian has little effect on getting laid. There is actually a chinese population in BA. If you have cash you will get ass.
Mmmconto1.
As to question of racism. It certainly exists. I found that Portenos do have this stuck up attitude. They treat you like you don't matter. Worse because you don't know their language. Asians are probably the top of that list then Brazilians.
The working girls I found to be more tolerant. For 200+ pesos I guess they could be screwing something worse than an asian dude.
I wasn't there long but I found Brazilians treating me better than an Argentinean would.
Mike Cockburn
07-30-08, 00:00
I spotted some chicks in Exedra a few times.
I was only taking a coffee. Please, believe me!
Normally. You enter one of these places.
Order yourself a coffee.
Then everything will be pretty obvios.
At some tables there will be girls sitting all by theirselves.
If you look at their direccion. At some point your eyes will meet.
She will look back straight into your eyes and smile.
It's like the girl flirting with you. It cannot be missunderstood.
Then I really don't know what happens,
(if she is coming to your table or vice versa.
The argentinians are not racists. Far from it.
It is a very mixed poulation.
Here live ancestors from spain, italy, arab countries, brazil, asians, natives.
Sometimes they call each other negro / negra.
It is in general because of the color of the hair. (not the skin)
It is affectionate, not despective.
White trash people can also be "black".
The poor people making trouble is also called "negros".
Those are the ones that block roads, enter offices and smashes them up,
Who fights in the football stadium. They are mentally "black".
"Negros de mente". It's just a stupid saying. It has nothing to do with color.
They don't know themselves why they say it.
How do BA girls in general perceive on asian guy?
Any advise is greatly appreciated!
Bullshit. Argentineans are the most racist people I have ever encountered. How many countries have you lived in, MC? How many have you been to?
It's true they sometimes affectionately refer to each other as negro / a but then they also use "negra mierda" (black shit) to refer to anyone with darker skin than they have. And, they use indio / a as a synonym for stupid.
The country has had an historically open immigration policy so yeah, there are people from everywhere but they all seem to hate each other.
On Asians specifically, the chicas often hold up a crooked little finger to indicate Asians. In other words, small dicks. Doormen pull the corners of their eyes up and point to indicate the grocery store. Routinely chicas tell me "black people smell bad" and I say "racista" and they say "No, I am not racist; they really do smell bad."
So I have lived in six countries and visited thirty and I like living in Argentina in spite of the fact they are racist as hell, but they are flat out racist as hell and anyone who says otherwise is either Argentinean or full of shit or both.
Mike Cockburn
07-30-08, 00:55
I must insist that you are wrong.
If a stuck up attitude would suffice, the Parisians (the French) would really be racists. The argentinians had a very strong ego. There are even jokes about it. Historically, Argentina has always been so much better than the rest of the South America. They look more European, had better schools, better healthcare, better everything. They really looked down on the rest.
After the big crash. Everything got worse.
They had the worst polititians, and the worst people.
They were worse off than any country in south america.
Their ego went down a few notches. (A good thing)
I have lived here for many many years, and I know the language.
I wouldn't say that they have a stuck up attitude.
There is a minority which is filthy rich and lacks humbleness.
They treat everyone as shit.
I am not ok, with the worst-list you made either.
It would be better to speak of a Wish-list, rather than a worst-list.
For casual sex, I think most argentinians would like to do it with a brazilian.
It is associated with a tall black guy with muscles and a really big COCK.
I have to admit.
Asians would probably not be on the top 5 list.
Not being gay or something, but there are good looking asians.
Jet Li, and the master from the hidden dragon crouching tiger movie, etc.
It is not true that all asians are short.
I think in the north of China, they are in general tall.
Most of the population in the interior of Argentina have "almond" shaped eyes.
They are used to that. Possibly someone in their own familiy have it.
At least un uncountable number of friends.
I have no idea of how you look.
But you will have no problem of getting laid here.
These girls sleep with everyone.
Even 80 year old men with hair sticking out of their noses and ears, and lots of hair on their back which grows down to their ass, greyhaired old sacky balls. I can't think of anything worse!
I have many friends that visit these women, and they don't look attractive.
They are fat, bald, old, short, black, natives, etc. That is how the average customer looks like. I myself, am not good looking.
Mmmconto1.
As to question of racism. It certainly exists. I found that Portenos do have this stuck up attitude. They treat you like you don't matter. Worse because you don't know their language. Asians are probably the top of that list then Brazilians.
The working girls I found to be more tolerant. For 200+ pesos I guess they could be screwing something worse than an asian dude.
I wasn't there long but I found Brazilians treating me better than an Argentinean would.
On Asians specifically, the chicas often hold up a crooked little finger to indicate Asians. In other words, small dicks.A few days ago in Discovery Chanel they said Italians has the largest and thicker cocks ever.
However, very good answer MC or whatever your nickname is. I lived in more countries than Dickhead has, including South Africa and the USA, and it's clear they are much more racist than in Buenos Aires. As for the girls, anyone with 200 pesos in cafe orleans, 60 pesos in darker private apartments, or 600 pesos in Black's has the same chances to get laid, god bless those Sex Workers and I hope they never change their mind so when I get older I can still having good looking girls in my bed.
Mike Cockburn
07-30-08, 01:27
I must be full of shit, then;)
The most racist country?
Every country in Europe, is more racist than Argentina.
I am from Europe. I do not keep count of the countries I have visited.
Maybe it is between 20-25. (you win;) )
I have only lived in 2 countries. (easy to count)
I myself look far from european.
I'd say that I know what I'm talking about.
It is true that many Argentinians have prejudices.
Heck, They even say that europeans stink, especially the french and the germans. It is not very racist to say that the french stinks.
Being french is not a race. (although sometimes, one may wonder)
In my homecountry, there are neonazigangs on the streets just waiting for me. Here I just blend in a lot better. I havn't seen any neonazi / skinhead anywhere. People talk about football violence, not racist violence.
No chick has turned me down, so far.
Ok, I am not black, but not caucasian either.
Bullshit. Argentineans are the most racist people I have ever encountered. How many countries have you lived in, MC? How many have you been to?
It's true they sometimes affectionately refer to each other as negro / a but then they also use "negra mierda" (black shit) to refer to anyone with darker skin than they have. And, they use indio / a as a synonym for stupid.
The country has had an historically open immigration policy so yeah, there are people from everywhere but they all seem to hate each other.
On Asians specifically, the chicas often hold up a crooked little finger to indicate Asians. In other words, small dicks. Doormen pull the corners of their eyes up and point to indicate the grocery store. Routinely chicas tell me "black people smell bad" and I say "racista" and they say "No, I am not racist; they really do smell bad."
So I have lived in six countries and visited thirty and I like living in Argentina in spite of the fact they are racist as hell, but they are flat out racist as hell and anyone who says otherwise is either Argentinean or full of shit or both.
Mike Cockburn
07-30-08, 01:39
Italians? According to former stats, they usually have small dicks.
Maybe they measured in in the town from where Rocco Sigfriedi is from.
Thank you for asking.
I would prefer "Cockburn" over "MC".
A few days ago in Discovery Chanel they said Italians has the largest and thicker cocks ever.
However, very good answer MC or whatever your nickname is.
Well I have been to I think a majority of European countries, although maybe not given the breakup of the USSR. I do not think they are as racist as Argentineans overall.
I agree it is not very racist to say the French stink. Or maybe it is. My God those fuckers stink.
Italians? According to former stats, they usually have small dicks.
Maybe they measured in in the town from where Rocco Sigfriedi is from.
Thank you for asking.
I would prefer "Cockburn" over "MC".All right, but don't let your girlfriend know, she is a Discovery Chanel fanatic:)
Dodger Bulldog
07-30-08, 18:31
As for the girls, anyone with 200 pesos in cafe orleans, 60 pesos in darker private apartments, or 600 pesos in Black's has the same chances to get laid,Actually, that is true only in theory. Chicas make choices, also.
Usually it is done by naming a price that is completely outrageous, such as asking for 600 pesos in Cafe Orleans, and refusing to budge off that number. She is simply saying "I don't want to fuck you."
I actually had one older chica flat out turn me down in Newport. I noticed she looked terrified, so I asked her what the problem was.
She said that one chica had told her that I insisted that she suck my toes.
No. Although it sounds good to me, none have sucked my toes. You've got that completely backwards, I said.
As part of giving some of the chicas a full body massage, I have sucked some of their toes. Is that a problem for you?
Yes, she is not into "fantasias," (read S & M) Which is the furthest thing away from my interest in GFE. But this woman was clearly afraid of me.
So I messed with her mind a bit until it became boring.
Funny thing, the same chica who supposedly "complained" about me sought me out two other times and begged me to take her back to my place again.
I guess sometimes there can be a hiccup even in the "chica network."
DB
Daddy Rulz
07-30-08, 21:33
Was "again" Chica A had earned yet her boyfriend needed more money for beer. Chica A saw you looking at Chicka B and in a perfect example of cock blocking told Chica B you are a disgusting pervert into all manner of strange painful things like that freak Stowe. Hence Chica B sez "No fucking way Boludo" and Chicka A gets to earn more beer money for her loser boyfriend back home by playing swallow the kielbasa with you.
Make sense?
Dodger Bulldog
07-30-08, 23:16
Could be.
You very well could be right, Daddy.
But a man needs variety, so the money went to Chica C.
But really now, you say my good friend Stowe is a freak?
Could be.
You very well could be right, Daddy.
A few days ago in Discovery Chanel they said Italians has the largest and thicker cocks ever.
However, very good answer MC or whatever your nickname is. I lived in more countries than Dickhead has, including South Africa and the USA, and it's clear they are much more racist than in Buenos Aires. As for the girls, anyone with 200 pesos in cafe orleans, 60 pesos in darker private apartments, or 600 pesos in Black's has the same chances to get laid, god bless those Sex Workers and I hope they never change their mind so when I get older I can still having good looking girls in my bed.It's harder to assess racism if you're not a minority. The only chance you have is being observant. From what I've read, Dickhead is one observant Mofo. I respect his ability to see things outside himself even though he's not a minority.
When you say South Africa and USA are more racist, you're probably right about blacks. Racism against asians which is what the original poster asked is not that widespread in USA or at least in major cities. As someone of Spanish decent with Caucasian features you're not likely to see racism in USA.
Just to put things in perspective, my question to you is- have you been with an Asian friend out and about in Buenos Aires? If so, how do they treat him (different I bet if it was a her) I was only there for a week and I know Argentineans have ill will against Asian men. Living In the US for over 30 years did not give that impression about the people here, and I live in a predominantly white neighborhood. If I was black, that might be a different story. Sadly, that race card is always in play in many countries.
However, you are right about money. Working girls will overlook race if the money is right.
However, you are right about money. Working girls will overlook race if the money is right.I love the idea that so many of us have only one version of racism. That is white against black. I also like the idea that anyone would state that a women will overlook race if the money is right. This also applies to what you look like, how clean you are etc. The women are disciminating against you if they do not like something about you. As to racism all you have to see is how they treat someone from Paraguay or Uruguay. Discrimnation exists in all places and extends far beyond skin color. If I do not think the chica is hot I discriminate as to how much I will pay.
I must insist that you are wrong.
If a stuck up attitude would suffice, the Parisians (the French) would really be racists. The argentinians had a very strong ego. There are even jokes about it. Historically, Argentina has always been so much better than the rest of the South America. They look more European, had better schools, better healthcare, better everything. They really looked down on the rest.
After the big crash. Everything got worse.
They had the worst polititians, and the worst people.
They were worse off than any country in south america.
Their ego went down a few notches. (A good thing)
I have lived here for many many years, and I know the language.
I wouldn't say that they have a stuck up attitude.
There is a minority which is filthy rich and lacks humbleness.
They treat everyone as shit.
I am not ok, with the worst-list you made either.
It would be better to speak of a Wish-list, rather than a worst-list.
For casual sex, I think most argentinians would like to do it with a brazilian.
It is associated with a tall black guy with muscles and a really big COCK.
I have to admit.
Asians would probably not be on the top 5 list.
Not being gay or something, but there are good looking asians.
Jet Li, and the master from the hidden dragon crouching tiger movie, etc.
It is not true that all asians are short.
I think in the north of China, they are in general tall.
Most of the population in the interior of Argentina have "almond" shaped eyes.
They are used to that. Possibly someone in their own familiy have it.
At least un uncountable number of friends.
I have no idea of how you look.
But you will have no problem of getting laid here.
These girls sleep with everyone.
Even 80 year old men with hair sticking out of their noses and ears, and lots of hair on their back which grows down to their ass, greyhaired old sacky balls. I can't think of anything worse!
I have many friends that visit these women, and they don't look attractive.
They are fat, bald, old, short, black, natives, etc. That is how the average customer looks like. I myself, am not good looking.Dude you could insist all you want about me being wrong, it doesn't change my experience. Besides, the question is not if anyone would have problems getting laid if they had money. Money gets bang bang anywhere. The question is the perception of Asians in Argentina. And I'm talking first hand.
I'm glad you think there are some "good looking" Asians. Out of a couple billion, you might be right. Since you ask, I am what the working girls called "guapo" But does guapo only goes so far. Guapo doesn't necessarily get me cab or get served first even when I'm first in line. Guapo doesn't stop people from spitting in front of me. Where I live, it's a kind of stuff that gets people knocked inside the head. I was a tourist, I let it go.
Likewise, I don't know how un-European you look but the nice little generic lesson on the human race you've presented lacks first hand experience.
After my trip to Argentina I did a little research on Asians and the Argentinean culture. The consensus is that there is animosity against Asians stemming from the influx of Chinese immigration. Granted more so in BA, Portenos think they're the shits in the first place, national pride, ego etc. A local told me that.
As far as the French. I've not been in their country but those who have and who knowledgeable and observant have told me that the French are stuck up. But with reason. It's not race. They are intolerant of tourists who don't make an effort to learn the language, even a little bit. They don't care for Americans who come over and start talking English as if the locals are suppose to understand. That's what I've been told.
Dodger Bulldog
07-31-08, 01:10
As far as the French. I've not been in their country but those who have and who knowledgeable and observant have told me that the French are stuck up. But with reason. It's not race. They are intolerant of tourists who don't make an effort to learn the language, even a little bit. They don't care for Americans who come over and start talking English as if the locals are suppose to understand. That's what I've been told.That seems to be the "common knowledge." But we shouldn't believe everything we hear.
Especially when it is of a negative tone.
I can give you a first hand account, from during the worst of times in recent history.
I happened to be in Paris on March 20, 2003, the very day that the invasion of Iraq began. It was a scary time, not knowing if, just perhaps, the Bushies weren't totally wrong, and maybe Saddam did have WMD and chemical weapons.
The tensions between the U. S. and France were running high. Remember "Freedom Fries," boycotting French wine, and all that nationalistic claptrap?
Despite not knowing a word of French beyond "oui," I ventured into a neigborhood pub. Along with the locals, we watched the bombs falling on the television.
After a short conversation, they locals began to buy me beers.
Soon they were putting their arms around my back, sang songs with me, wished for peace and the safety of our troops, and talked about how we are all brothers.
Don't ever say anything negative about the French. Not around me! I know firsthand what wonderful people they are.
And I knew not a word of their language beyond "oui."
DB
Outside of Paris, I have found very little, but people who are kind and generous to tourists with limited language skills. In one small town in the north, I was lost in a rental car. The people put me in a cafe and got me lunch and had me wait. This guy actuall called an american guy who was retired who rode his bike into town just to speak english with americans. The town literally arranged a room and entertainment. One of the best traveling experiences I've had.
Paris is like NYC or BA---urban big city people short on time and patience. Some are very kind and others are not. I think that I have found more kindness in tourist situations in BA than NYC or Paris. Doger--I aggree: the american and french people have had a long and friendly association and ties. Sometimes average people are smarter than the politicians.
The USA would possibly have lost the revolutionary war with out the help of the french. The usa's undiplomatic diplomats should be ashamed of themselves:
Freedom fries. They need to go to charm school.
That seems to be the "common knowledge." But we shouldn't believe everything we hear.
Especially when it is of a negative tone.
DBHey, man. I ain't knocking the French. I grew up learning French. Understood the French tour guide in Iguacu better than the stuck up Spanish / English guide I had.
When I say the French aren't into racism, I'm giving them credit. What I heard from about their intolerance of language effort may be "common knowledge" but I absolutely believe it. I don't fault them for it. I would love to experience the French culture. I know they don't have a problem with Asians.
After a short conversation, they locals began to buy me beers.
Soon they were putting their arms around my back, sang songs with me, wished for peace and the safety of our troops, and talked about how we are all brothers.Hi DB,
I don't understand. According to the Democrats, everybody in the world hates Americans.
Thanks,
Jackson
Dodger Bulldog
07-31-08, 03:59
Awwwww, now, Jackson. You know how much I love you, man!
DB
Mike Cockburn
07-31-08, 20:00
What are we talking about? It is true that the argentinians don't like asians.
They work hard and puts the argentinians out off bussiness because of their efficiency. There are prejudices, of course.
"The chineese turns off the refrigerator at night".
"They don't pay taxes"
"etc. Etc".
But that is not true racism.
I know of a lot of argentinians that are looking for a "linda china". It is true that some are ugly, maybe most of the asians you found in Bs. As., but that might depend on where they come from. Some are really beautiful. There are many types of asians, as there are many types of europeans.
One could say: Danish women are more beutiful than women from romania. (It is true if you really like blonds, as I do)
The argentinians can be very rude.
They behave like kids without good manners.
Drive like crazies, throw things on the soil, spits in public,
Don't step a side when they are occuping the whole trottoire (sidewalk?
Speak with the mouth full of food.
Make jokes about catastrophes, ww2, katrina, etc.
Their humor programmes, are only about humiliation.
Some people spits in front of me too, but the guy didn't even saw coming.
He spitted because he is a "negro de mierda" (I have already told you that that expression. It has nothing to do with skin color. It is a stupid saying)
SmileX. I am sorry that you didn't feel comfortable here. I am not sure if it was really racism or just narrowmindness that you experienced.
As one person has already pointed out. The french is a very nice people, but in general only those from the country side. I have several french friends here in argentina (from the countryside). They say that everybody gets treated like shit, even them. In my message, I actually wrote "parisians", not the french.
I know french too. It is a very hard language. They cannot expect tourists to pronounce it well. Most students of 3-4 years study don't pronounce well.
One must diffrentiate between discrimination and racism. Surely, it seems that you were discriminated. I agree on that.
Ps I have no idea, why my messages appear with double newlines...
Mike Cockburn]What are we talking about? It is true that the argentinians don't like asians.
= racism
They work hard and puts the argentinians out off bussiness because of their efficiency. There are prejudices, of course.
"The chineese turns off the refrigerator at night".
That is absolutely true and can cause food poisoning
"They don't pay taxes"
"etc. Etc".
But that is not true racism.
I know of a lot of argentinians that are looking for a "linda china".
So you are Asian, but European, right? Good luck with that!
It is true that some are ugly, maybe most of the asians you found in Bs. As., but that might depend on where they come from. Some are really beautiful. There are many types of asians, as there are many types of europeans.
One could say: Danish women are more beutiful than women from romania. (It is true if you really like blonds, as I do)
The argentinians can be very rude.
That's what I think after living here five years.
They behave like kids without good manners.
Yes.
Drive like crazies, throw things on the soil, spits in public,
Oh yes. Worst litterbugs ever.
Don't step a side when they are occuping the whole trottoire (sidewalk?
True but that happens all over Asia and any crowded area, really
Speak with the mouth full of food.
Make jokes about catastrophes, ww2, katrina, etc.
Their humor programmes, are only about humiliation.
Some people spits in front of me too, but the guy didn't even saw coming.
He spitted because he is a "negro de mierda" (I have already told you that that expression. It has nothing to do with skin color. It is a stupid saying)
SmileX. I am sorry that you didn't feel comfortable here. I am not sure if it was really racism or just narrowmindness that you experienced.
As one person has already pointed out. The french is a very nice people,
Not
But in general only those from the country side. I have several french friends here in argentina (from the countryside) They say that everybody gets treated like shit, even them. In my message, I actually wrote "parisians", not the french.
I know french too. It is a very hard language. They cannot expect tourists to pronounce it well. Most students of 3-4 years study don't pronounce well.
One must diffrentiate between discrimination and racism. Surely, it seems that you were discriminated. I agree on that.
Ps I have no idea, why my messages appear with double newlines.[/QUOTE]
Or so say most of the Argentines and Europeans.
I agree with Dickhead and I am a black guy who lived in BA for almost 2 years. Argentines are very racist. I actually had a Chinese-American friend and he was telling me about his experiences in BA. We were having drinks with an international group of friends at Bar Danzon and it was funny to me because it was almost like he was reluctant or guilty about starting to talk about the topic but you could tell that he was wondering if I was getting the same treatment. I don't know if you have noticed this but asians are not the most socially conscious minority group in the U. S. They seem to get a lot of pressure from their parents to maintain their traditional culture while growing up in the U. S. while at the same time it appears to me that they will do almost anything to integrate themselves into the mainstream "white" culture. My point is that Asians don't usually go around screaming racism so when they mention it "IT IS REAL!"
But if it is so racist why would I, a black guy, stay there for so long. That is easy to answer. First, it used to be cheap. Second, I never had a WG refuse service and I really wonder what kind of mutant freak you would have to be to get these girls to turn down some pesos. Thirdly, BA is like New York. There are people there from all over Argentina, South America, and the world. I got all kinds of free Paraguayan pussy, including my maid who was blonde, blue eyed, and 25 and had been hand-picked by my land lady to keep me from changing apartments after she fabricated a bullshit story about our fat, indigenous, Chilean maid stealing money from her (then her 18 year old cousin came to town and I fucked her too and the 25 year old didn't mind because she was married and her husband was fucking someone else.) I had a nice long relationship with a student from Ushuaia who came up to ME at the Shamrock (got a lot of pussy there and looking forward to hanging out there again on my upcoming trip) and started talking. My point is there is SO much pussy in BA I challenge you to learn the language, stay for a while, and NOT get laid. It's just hard to do. You have expat groups with meetings where you get the opportunity to meet all kinds of chicks from Europe, America, and the UK. Then you have clubs like Maluco Beleza with two floors of Brazilian trim stacked on top of each other. Join a gym and chat up some trim there and if you strike out or the chick is lame and doesn't want to blow you are something you hightail it to an apartment and get some relief for less than 50 bucks. These activities helped to take the sting out of porteño racism for me.
Mike Cockburn
08-01-08, 11:04
Not liking someone is not racism. The asians living here are not very well adapted. Most of them hardly speak any spanish at all.
No, they are not turning off the refrigerators. Someone did it, but now everybody thinks they all do it. I buy from them often, and it's always in perfect condition. Food goes to waste very quickly in room temperature. 1 hour in room temperature, is equivalent to 1 day of best-before-date.
A refrigerator consumes more, being turned on, than maintaining the temperature.
Racism is when they don't even want to touch you. When they call you despective names. When gangs try to fuck you up just for you ethnic belonging. Etc I have experienced that, but never here.
From my own home country. First generation immigrants are treated differently than second generation immigants. There is alot of discrimination, but not a racial one, but rather a cultural one. There are also people that don't like colored people, luckly very few, but the distinction is very clear.
Ps. Big bob, give me the number to your maid! My maid does only cleaning. She isn't very good looking either.
No, they are not turning off the refrigerators. Someone did it, but now everybody thinks they all do it. I have a friend who works in a Chinese-owned all you can eat buffet (she is not Chinese) in Buenos Aires and she tells me they do turn off the refrigerator every night. She worked in another one a few years ago and tells me they did it too. I have another friend who worked in a Chinese-owned grocery store in Malvinas Argentinas and she said they turned the beverage coolers off at night (but not the meat cooler)
So nyaah.
Jackson--it's the current government that they dislike, not the american people.
Or so say most of the Argentines and Europeans.Hi MB,
Well that's understandable. The losers in any competition rarely like the winners.
Of course, the winners rarely give a fuck what the 2nd place teams think.
Thanks,
Jackson
Lueck Hoff
08-01-08, 17:02
As a European, Jackson's post makes me think of which competition we might have lost during the years of the Bush government.
Was it the development of the economy in general? Was it the development of the social systems, health insurance etc. Was it the value of the currency (dollar / euro) Was it the growth of the national debt? Was it the war in Irak? Was it the respect one gets as a foreigner in other countries in the world?
Hmm.
In general I agree with Miami Bob. I am sure there would be a much better relationship between Europe and the US if Obama wins the elections. But I am not sure he will.
Lueck Hoff
Daddy Rulz
08-01-08, 18:18
Black guys can get all kinds of free pussy in BsAs due to the racism. I have a lot of Argie friends, mostly people from Zona Norte, well educated nice people that accept as fact that black people are genetically inferior to whites. They talk about it unashamedly as if anybody with a brain can see it as true. Without exception all of the girls I know think that every black guy is hung like Lexington Steel and can fuck like a machine for 10 hours. Again they talk about this as known fact. Without exception they want to fuck one to see what it's all about. They have limited opportunity due to the scarcity of blacks in BsAs.
Personally, if I was on vacation, I would be happy if some chica thought I was stupid but couldn't wait to blow me. Beats the hell out of the way they think about me.
Can't change their attitudes but you may as well take advantage of their predjudice. You can always re-read "Crime and Punishment" or "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" when you get back home.
Mike Cockburn
08-01-08, 19:31
Interesting.
What fact are you talking about?
Are you being ironic?
Black guys can get all kinds of free pussy in BsAs due to the racism. I have a lot of Argie friends, mostly people from Zona Norte, well educated nice people that accept the fact that black people are genetically inferior to whites. They talk about it unashamedly as if anybody with a brain can see it as true.
Dodger Bulldog
08-01-08, 21:13
Of course, the winners rarely give a fuck what the 2nd place teams think.Actually, the problem just might be in believing that our allies are on a different team.
Rather, it may be much more useful to view the U. S as the captain of the squad, and adopt the attitude that it is easiest to win with teamwork rather than by hogging the ball and cussing out our teammates.
We sure wanted them on our team to share the load when it was time to go to war, didn't we? But bullying them by demanding "you're either with us or against us" didn't work out so well.
We couldn't carry a war resolution through at the U. N. Security Council, nor did very many of them join the "Coalition of the Willing."
Sometimes we want others to help fight our battles for us, but there is the price to pay when we don't "give a fuck."
DB
I sometimes wonder if Ron Artest is in charge of US foreign policy.
Daddy Rulz
08-01-08, 21:31
Interesting.
What fact are you talking about?
Are you being ironic?I was relating the experiences I have had with Argentinian friends of mine.
I personally don't think black people are genetically inferior, there may be a case to be made that Asians are smarter than everybody though, but it's probably more about a cultural work ethic.
I was saying if some girl thought I was stupid but had a big dick and could fuck great just because I was white it wouldn't piss me off. Use their prejudice to your own advantage was the point I made.
I sometimes wonder if Ron Artest is in charge of US foreign policy.Or Manny.:)
Yeah, but Artest could run for president and Manny can't.
I am sure there would be a much better relationship between Europe and the US if Obama wins the elections.Hi Lueck,
With all due respect, I really don't think it makes any difference if the Europeans like the USA or not.
Thanks,
Jackson
Dodger Bulldog
08-02-08, 05:10
Or Manny.:)Hey, be careful what you say about the newest Dodger, okay?
DB
Lueck Hoff
08-02-08, 07:48
Hi Jackson,
I understand your point of view and respect it. In some parts of europe the attitude is the same.
Like " why should we care of the US when the european union is growing more and more and with the oil prices sky high it might be more important to built a deeper partnership with russia no matter what the US would think about that ".
I doubt that a "stand - alone" policy would be very intelligent either for the US or for Europe. Times are changing, and with the growth of China, India and other former third world countries their might be problems in the future which even for the strong US will be almost impossible to solve, for Europe definately impossible. So having a good relationship with other countries might be more important in the future than ever.
The mayority in Europe think this way. I think that is the main reason why 200.000 people in Berlin came to hear a speech of Obama, whom most of them couldn't even really see nor could they exactly understand what he was saying, as it was in english of course. No German politican can even dream of getting 200.000 people to hear a speech of him!
But Germans don't vote.
Lueck Hoff
They all ''hate'' everyone not the same as them! The Spanish even hate the Italians and vice-versa.I do agree, and I testify that my novia (which is not Argentinian allthought she has been for a while in this country permitting her to hold an argentinian passport) suffers of this state.
That makes her very shy and not willing to generate contacts with Argentinians that she don't know (not really helpfull when I ask her to do something for me as my spanish seems to me very weak)
That although generates some stress when we go to a place where we have a reservation (like shows) as the guys at the entry don't realy look really happy to let her in.
Her skins is whiter than mine (yes I am one of theses stinking caucasian frenchies) but you can see looking her carefully that she have little indian blood. Not so much)
Hey, be careful what you say about the newest Dodger, okay?
DBTorre and Manny? Let's see if Joe can make his way through that mop and pull a rabbit out of the hat! So Bulldog, a Brad Penny fan?
Mike Cockburn
08-02-08, 16:20
Don't forget that they serve cat meat at the chineese restaurants, and that they spit in your food.
Turning off the bevarage cooler isn't a problem. It doesn't need to be cool.
I have a friend who works in a Chinese-owned all you can eat buffet (she is not Chinese) in Buenos Aires and she tells me they do turn off the refrigerator every night. She worked in another one a few years ago and tells me they did it too. I have another friend who worked in a Chinese-owned grocery store in Malvinas Argentinas and she said they turned the beverage coolers off at night (but not the meat cooler)
So nyaah.
I expect my beer to be cold when they charge me an extra ten or fifteen centavos for that. Also, you know, dairy products DO need to be cold.
Dodger Bulldog
08-02-08, 17:15
Torre and Manny? Let's see if Joe can make his way through that mop and pull a rabbit out of the hat! So Bulldog, a Brad Penny fan?When he is contributing. When he is on the DL, it pisses me off.
Billyboy69
08-02-08, 18:31
Dickhead have center the target 100%!
I'm Italian, and 25% of my family blood still live in BA. But if I have to say Argentinian are racist yes I say this!
I don't forget the night when I have meet my Argentinian sister whith my Paraguaya girl friend. The day after my sister have say to me:
What you do with her? It's a NEGRA!
Hihihihihihi for my is funny, I'm a foreign in BA. Negra or yellow or white it's the same. But.
Yes, Argentinian are one of the most racist people!
PS.
Sorry guys for my very poor english. I apologiza, but I'm self made man on this.
ElTano.
Bullshit. Argentineans are the most racist people I have ever encountered. How many countries have you lived in, MC? How many have you been to?
It's true they sometimes affectionately refer to each other as negro / a but then they also use "negra mierda" (black shit) to refer to anyone with darker skin than they have. And, they use indio / a as a synonym for stupid.
The country has had an historically open immigration policy so yeah, there are people from everywhere but they all seem to hate each other.
On Asians specifically, the chicas often hold up a crooked little finger to indicate Asians. In other words, small dicks. Doormen pull the corners of their eyes up and point to indicate the grocery store. Routinely chicas tell me "black people smell bad" and I say "racista" and they say "No, I am not racist; they really do smell bad."
So I have lived in six countries and visited thirty and I like living in Argentina in spite of the fact they are racist as hell, but they are flat out racist as hell and anyone who says otherwise is either Argentinean or full of shit or both.
Billyboy69
08-02-08, 18:39
Stop stop dear Mike Cockburn!
Argentina have live a lot big crash!
Argentinian are racist on his soul!
Is hard to admit for me. You don't image how I love Argentina.
But. They have kill (whit CIA support) the most beautiful mind of the country on the years of 70'.
They have lost on dicember 2001 the best opportunity to do a civil war.
Argentinian are looser. But for me is a best place on the world.
But don't forget guys! If Argentina is a first world country the sex was not so cheap. That's the truth!
Again. Very sorry for my poor english. The best in you I'm sure have understood me 100%
I must insist that you are wrong.
If a stuck up attitude would suffice, the Parisians (the French) would really be racists. The argentinians had a very strong ego. There are even jokes about it. Historically, Argentina has always been so much better than the rest of the South America. They look more European, had better schools, better healthcare, better everything. They really looked down on the rest.
After the big crash. Everything got worse.
They had the worst polititians, and the worst people.
They were worse off than any country in south america.
Their ego went down a few notches. (A good thing)
I have lived here for many many years, and I know the language.
I wouldn't say that they have a stuck up attitude.
There is a minority which is filthy rich and lacks humbleness.
They treat everyone as shit.
I am not ok, with the worst-list you made either.
It would be better to speak of a Wish-list, rather than a worst-list.
For casual sex, I think most argentinians would like to do it with a brazilian.
It is associated with a tall black guy with muscles and a really big COCK.
I have to admit.
Asians would probably not be on the top 5 list.
Not being gay or something, but there are good looking asians.
Jet Li, and the master from the hidden dragon crouching tiger movie, etc.
It is not true that all asians are short.
I think in the north of China, they are in general tall.
Most of the population in the interior of Argentina have "almond" shaped eyes.
They are used to that. Possibly someone in their own familiy have it.
At least un uncountable number of friends.
I have no idea of how you look.
But you will have no problem of getting laid here.
These girls sleep with everyone.
Even 80 year old men with hair sticking out of their noses and ears, and lots of hair on their back which grows down to their ass, greyhaired old sacky balls. I can't think of anything worse!
I have many friends that visit these women, and they don't look attractive.
They are fat, bald, old, short, black, natives, etc. That is how the average customer looks like. I myself, am not good looking.
Billyboy69
08-02-08, 18:42
I'm Italian. Yes! I have a small dick:-(
Maybe I have to use a colt45 on my head for that? Highihihi.
I have let scream some girl whit my dick. But the best I do whit my tongue:-)
Italians? According to former stats, they usually have small dicks.
Maybe they measured in in the town from where Rocco Sigfriedi is from.
Thank you for asking.
I would prefer "Cockburn" over "MC".
Argentine people ARE the most racist people I have ever met, even when their world was crumbling around them with the devaluation of their currency they still felt they were better than everyone else.
Hell, I have even seen the beggers on the street complaint when I give them just spare change.
It has always been like this and it will always be like this.
Must be the spaniard blood in them, which I consider the most arrogant and most inhumane, evil people in the history of mankind.
Hi Lueck,
With all due respect, I really don't think it makes any difference if the Europeans like the USA or not.
Thanks,
JacksonWith all due respect, I really think Lueck's opinions are irrelevant and off-topic. This is "Racism in Argentina".
Lueck Hoff
08-03-08, 05:25
With all due respect, my opinion was only a reaction to a former post from jackson.
If you find my opinions irrelevant in general, MSCE, you should put me on your ignore list. I have no problem with that. It is the place, were the more experienced mongers have already put your overpriced apartment offers.
Lueck
The dollar, 10 years ago, was the international currency of choice. Lack of respect and the USA's standing in the world community has changed and the euro is becoming the curency of choice. Freedom fries and creative interpretation of the geneve convention were only the tip of the iceberg.
The USA does not have to be concerned about world opinion, but if no one wants our currency nor to own our debt, things will become very uncomfortable.
Yes, low interest rates and inflation don't help. Popi Bush, Regan and R. Nixon, with all of his faults, were certainly conservative, but understood the need for diplomacy.
Spaniard royalty is in fact, not Spaniard but original from france. And the history it's not about the people, history is about the royalty. I would also add that every country in the world has a dark history.I guess when I say "inhumane people", I think of how the Cortes and De Soto.
Massacured and commited unspeakable act. Also later on, The way they brought in the 18 and 19 century africans from in such an inhumane manner.
But, your are correct in saying all countries have a dark history.
David Smash
08-07-08, 04:53
I was planning my first visit to BA this fall. I have to say I am a bit concerned about this "racism" topic. I am black and speak a decent amount of Spanish. Will I have to expect police shakedown and harassment from Argentines because I'm black?
I read Big Bob's post but he lives there. I will like to visit this country without the prejudice hassle.
I've been to Colombia and have experienced the "race relations" of their society. In Colombia most people will stare at me but mostly because they know I am not Colombian. Colombians come a rainbow of colors. How people are treated more depends on the money they make. Though few black Colombians (At least the ones in MDE) were rich.
Is it like this in BA if so that's something I can handle.
I was planning my first visit to BA this fall. I have to say I am a bit concerned about this "racism" topic. I am black and speak a decent amount of Spanish. Will I have to expect police shakedown and harassment from Argentines be / c I'm black?
I read Big Bob's post but he lives there. I will like to visit this country without the prejudice hassle.
I've been to Colombia and have experienced the "race relations" of their society. In Colombia most people will stare at me but mostly be / c they know I am not Colombian. Colombians come a rainbow of colors. How people are treated more depends on the money they make. Though few black Colombians (At least the ones in MDE) were rich.
Is it like this in BA if so that's something I can handleHi DS,
I would be surprised if you had any problems at all. I think all this racist talk is way out of bounds. I have been here for nearly three years and I just don't see it as a big problem. Admittedly, I'm a WASP, and so keep that in mind. Hey, its not Canada or France but definitely do not let the talk here dissuade you from making a visit.
As Doggboy says, I would definitely not let the talk here dissuade you from coming.
Argentines don't have the slightest clue as to what "political correctness" means so they seem much more racists than they really are. You will find no harassment or feel persecuted in any way for being black, green, violet or whatever colour you are.
People may look at you out of curiosity as there are very few blacks in the country but most people will go out of their way to make you feel comfortable (reverse racism)
Just remember that the concept of political correctness is something that the Argentines haven't a clue about.
And finally, yes, Argentines will measure you by your wallet much more than by your colour.
As Doggboy says, I would definitely not let the talk here dissuade you from coming.
Argentines don't have the slightest clue as to what "political correctness" means so they seem much more racists than they really are. You will find no harassment or feel persecuted in any way for being black, green, violet or whatever colour you are.
People may look at you out of curiosity as there are very few blacks in the country but most people will go out of their way to make you feel comfortable (reverse racism)
Just remember that the concept of political correctness is something that the Argentines haven't a clue about.
And finally, yes, Argentines will measure you by your wallet much more than by your colour.Very well said Aqualung, I would also add that racism may go towards neighbor countries (like Bolivians, Peruvians) and for minor discrimination (not willing to rent an apartment, not stopping the cab) but that's more due the huge immigration from those countries.
Seems to me that racism, in this thread, is the excuse to talk about things many of you disapprove about argentines.
Let me say, first of all, that the term "argentines" is a generalization.
That goes well, no doubt, when we talk about a geographical situation or a futbol team, but when it concerns human behaviour, is a mistake. The same mistake as to say all black people can play jazz, all colombians are drug dealers or all arabs are terrorists. That mistakenness has to do with each one's fears towards the stranger, towards what is not known. Towards what's out of the money-bubble some seems to live in.
And having money, it has been prooved, is not the same as having discernment.
We, argentines, are not the best people of the world.
But neither the worst.
We have faults and virtues, as the rest of the world.
Different faults, different virtues.
Not long ago someone in this blog suggested that if the actual government stop charging taxes, or at least became charging less taxes to Big Companies, Argentina could be, in a few years, like Hong Kong. Putting aside the political discussion if in not rich countries (and in ALL countries, in fact, but most of all in not rich ones) taxes should be paid or not, what it draw my attention was that someone should know so little about us as to think that we, argentine people, would ever want to be like Hong Kong. Or Shangai, or by the case any other asian ex colony where wretch fellows seems to live in an eternal rush of gathering money the twenty four hours of the day.
The first thing that comes to my mind is that we, here, have a very different relation with time and with money. In this far corner or the world, time not always means money. For some, time is more preciouss than money. The time you pass with friends, the time you pass with people you know. Even the time you kept for yourself. That connot be rewarded by any amount of pesos, dollars, or euros. This is a basic concept to undestand any culture, I'm affraid to say, outside the United States. And that's perhaps why, in many places (the farther from Capital, the more) you still may find people who don't care at all about The Famous Capitalism's Race for Buying Things. That new religion. People who really give a shit if they change or not the car each year, or if they get the latest model on cellular phones. People who would put all that aside, if you have the grace to fell good to them, to have a long good talk with you, no matter you're a stranger. No matter if he has just known you five minutes ago. Usually, is the same people who'll invite you to their homes and introduce you to their families.
We're friendly people, in spite of all that's been said in this thread.
We'll not trained dogs (sorry MCSE) and I hope we'll be at least for the rest of my life. We're passionate, but that's not a delict. We're a little too proud, but who' not? And why not? We're not more or less than anybody else. I will not deny that may be scoundrels and thiefs among us, as in any other living community in the world. But not less than in Europe. Not less than in United States, I'm affraid.
And last, but not least, a suggestion.
Let me tell you it would be good for you, in fact for the ones who think that we argentines are all the same gang of thieves, to venture beyond the sacred bounds where most of you use to move. Take a long look beyond the touristic circle. Go eat to a small restaurant in Flores or Caballito. Go see a futbol match. But not as part of a tourist package. Mix between the people. Try to learn a few words and talk with them. Take a bus and choose any of the wonderful places this country has to offer: Misiones, Salta, Cordoba, Bariloche, some small towns by the sea like Villa Gesell or Necochea. You'll be surprised by the warmth of the people you'll met. You'll check that people are not the same, for good and for bad. Most of all the ones who live outside Buenos Aires. Try to find some specific characteristic in them, and you'll be pleased when you find it.
I will extend this counsel, I'll add, to any other country in the world you have the good fortune to visit. If you want to say, when you get back to your homes, that you've really been there, you'll have to know the people of the place you've been. And to know the people, is to know the people outside the torustic circle. If not, you'll be like someone travelling inside a submarine. You'll have a lot of seals in your passport, a few exotic photographs, but nothing more.
Hope this lines make you think over, at least to some of you, the things it has been said in this thread.
And realize we're not so bad, after all. Almost 80% of this country are the inmigrant consecuence of that big mixture of races that has become our history.
How could we be racists?
Excellent post, Julio. But you're still racists. I live here (five years) speak the language, have been to the majority of the provinces (by bus and train) spend plenty of time in the provincias, and it's still the most racist country I've ever been to. And, there are way more scoundrels here on a percentage basis than in the US. Maybe 2-3 times as many. That could be a product of economics; I don't discount that. 40% of the population or something like that lives in GBA and way more than 40% of the scoundrels live in GBA. It's definitely been my experience that Argentina is more honest outside of Buenos Aires, but it's also been my experience that it is even more racist outside of Buenos Aires.
But no, it would certainly be bad to turn it into Hong Kong, where I would never want to live (and yes, I've been there)
Mike Cockburn
08-11-08, 11:22
Julio.
I have many good argentinian friends, even my best friend is argentinian.
He is one hell of a person (a good thing). He is a person with high values, a person I respect, but he is also what you call, "muy piola", "Sabe todos los trucos".
There are many good people in Argentina. But the majority is not, and it is reflected in the society as a whole. It is true, it is a generalization.
The average Argentinian (porteño) is a "chanta". It is so rooted in the society. It is even in the vocabulary. I my own mothertoungue there isn't a word for plomero "de confianza", gasista "de confianza", eletricista "de confianza", etc.
The closest match is "authorized plumber" (plomero publico, plomero matriculado) But it is not the same. They are all authorized, it is just to diffrentiate him from "cacho del barrio" or your friend, the handyman.
They are all "de confianza". You just grab the yellow pages and pick one without giving it a second thought. They will all do a good work.
It is hard to find a good translation for "garca" too.
Both "Garca" and "me cagaron" are used on daily basis here.
Normally, you get screwed very seldom in europe.
There isn't a good translation for "trucho" either. Isn't that too, a true 100% argentinian word? The vocabulary is extended based on needs. That is why the icelanders have 100 words for snow, and the argentinians have so many words for bad things.
There is an argentinian joke. "Los argentinos, tenemos lo peor de los gallegos why lo peor de los tanos". It wouldn't be funny, if it didn't have some degree of thruth in it.
I don't think you are a racist people. Far from it. It is not a black and white thing;) There are shades of gray. The argentinians are on the lighter scale.
I don't think a true non-racist society is possible. Not for at least another 100 years.
I prefer having my kids grow up here than growing up with the racism in europe.
Argentina has many good things too. This thread doesn't give the total picture. It started, out with a question on racism. Someone said that the argentinians are freespoken and politically incorrect, that that behaviour sometimes can be mistaken for racism or discrimination. But we seem to disagree. Dickhead thinks that the argentinians are the most racist people in the world.
Dickhead thinks that the argentinians are the most racist people in the world.No, what I said was they were the most racist people I've ever encountered. There's a whole continent I haven't visited. I've only been to 30 countries, of which I lived in 6 or 7, depending on your definitions.
No, what I said was they were the most racist people I've ever encountered. There's a whole continent I haven't visited. I've only been to 30 countries, of which I lived in 6 or 7, depending on your definitions.I think that in this case, the perception of racism it's strongly related with your own perception, in my case I have lived in more countries than you did, and never felt discriminated, perhaps because I'm hansome and good looking, but I have friends who are even more good looking than I am and they get a reverse-discrimination, which is fast traslated in more girls around that I get. Some countries like Chile with 80% of aborigin mixed population, Ecuador, or Peru (common mixture of black slaves, chinese slaves, and aborigin slaves) they only consume US-imported movies, and their models are white, blueyed blonde guys and girls as models-for-life, and they feel inferior, since they are unable to modify their genes, so any european shaped guy will be a kind of god / godness and idealized, as the model shown on the media. May be it's because Argentina is a country populated by white people and european ancestors, so your expectations for reverse-discrimination were higher, thinking of Argentina as another third word country, financialy undeveloped country or just South American country, you feel dissapointed and that's why you say people is racist in Argentina.
Excellent post, Julio. But you're still racists. I live here (five years) speak the language, have been to the majority of the provinces (by bus and train) spend plenty of time in the provincias, and it's still the most racist country I've ever been to. And, there are way more scoundrels here on a percentage basis than in the US. Maybe 2-3 times as many. That could be a product of economics; I don't discount that. 40% of the population or something like that lives in GBA and way more than 40% of the scoundrels live in GBA. It's definitely been my experience that Argentina is more honest outside of Buenos Aires, but it's also been my experience that it is even more racist outside of Buenos Aires.
But no, it would certainly be bad to turn it into Hong Kong, where I would never want to live (and yes, I've been there)Thanks, Dickhead.
Agreed about Hong Kong.
But I'm affraid we'll never agree about racism.
At least until we don't re-define what each one of us undestands about racism.
If racism has the same meaning as I intend, I don't think Argentina is, in your own words, "the most racist country you've ever been to", according you've been in England, France, or the United States. I've never seen here any black guy mauled by a police patrol only because he's got a different colour of skin, as all the world saw a few years ago in Los Angeles. Nor never seen in Buenos Aires any black man, or paraguayo or boliviano by the case, burned alive like the Ku Kux Klan used to do with black people until not so long ago. Not to mention the wild represions against algerian and muslims of all kind set in France since the arrival of Sarkozy. Or the racial problems every day are shown in England (just remeber the (egyptian? guy shot down in the subway only because he was suspected of terrorism). Or the anti-semit scuadrons still crossing the nights of Munich or Hamburg.
Some porteños make fun of paraguayos, that's true, but as someone else punctuated here it's in a funny way, not offensive, and they (the paraguayos, the bolivianos) know that, and even them sometimes make fun of themselves.
That's not racism.
At least as I undestand the word.
Thanks again for your compliments, and I hope this new lines don't make you change your mind about my posts, but yes about the racism in Argentina.
I prefer having my kids grow up here than growing up with the racism in europe. Thanks, Mike.
Those words are the best conclusion for all that I tried to say.
My great-grandfathers were french, and I'm sure they thought the same when they choose this country for raising their son.
Just to add my two cents, most racist country, the good old USA. Lived in Los Angeles 30 some years and the poor people here are going through a period of transition in the the poorer areas. Race riots are common in high schools, I believe its because of the growing power of prison gangs who segregate themselves by race in prison and exert their influence on the streets.
In affluent areas its not that notable, but lately I, as a dark skinned latino, have noticed people's nervousness when they see me walking down the street. This used to happen to me when I was younger, but now its becoming more prevalent. And I don't even dress like a thug! Never have.
Mexico City, Mexico, also racist, the rest of the country, not very much at all. Its not uncommon for me when I go shopping in Mexico City to be ignored as I stand at a counter (I chose jeans, tennis shoes and long sleeved shirts as my mode of dress) I believed I'm perceived as a poor indian with no money to spend as to the reason for my treatment. I have been spoken down to by locals and once in a restaurant when I was 14 and carrying my guitar, this older gentleman insisted I play a song for him and his girlfriend. After obliging him, do you know what this guy said to me? Indians are gifted in music but little else, I'll never have the gifts that God bestowed on the descendants of Spain. I could go on and on about incidents like these, these incidents stopped when I reached the age of 22. Probably because they perceive me as someone who will stab 'em dead if offended. Ha!
I've had minor racist incidents in BA, nothing compared to what I've experienced in LA, Mexico City or Germany. Even Mexican-Americans who appear more European than Indian have given me reason to pause. About 5 months ago a person I met said to me "When I first saw you I thought I was going to need a Spanish-English dictionary. I quickly realized I just needed a dictionary".
Argentinians are really quite well mannered to people in general, even if racism is as pervasive as some opinions have suggested. One can't expect to be loved by everyone all the time.
I hope we can all let this topic rest. In my traveling experience everybody seems to have issues with somebody, even if its with its own people.
...The Elysian Fields.You don't see this expression very often. Kudos.
Argentinians are really quite well mannered to people in general, even if racism is as pervasive as some opinions have suggested.And I agree, the Argentineans are the most well mannered racists I've ever met, second to the Japanese, who are the world's most well-mannered racists.
Thanks,
Jackson
You don't see this expression very often. Kudos.
And I agree, the Argentineans are the most well mannered racists I've ever met second to the Japanese, who are the world's most well-mannered racists.
Thanks,
JacksonNow it is being discussed, other words spring to the tongue.
Inconsiderate.
Hypocrite.
Insincere.
Opportunist.
Guile.
Rapacious.
Mendacious.
Sure they are polite and effuse friendship and helpfulness on meeting. Kissy kissy and gladhanders all. Nothing too much trouble. In the real, occidental world, panhandler is the word that best fits. But they all play the game and they all know the rules. Us gringos assume the same rules as in the occident apply. It is a big mistake because they don't. As someone once said; 'Do you think the USA would have invaded Iraq if it had 20% of the world's broccoli?' I say, 'Do you think that the Argentines who you call your friends, would be hanging around if you didn't have dough?' For those challenged by the questions, the answer is no in both instances. Sure there are a few Argentines I call friends and who have been put to the test. But there are a darn side more who failed and went for the dough, some subtley, but most quickly and crudely. Of course these people exist everywhere, it's just that most of them gravitated to Buenos Aires. The same is not for the true country people, of all classes. They in general are great value and genuinely allow you to share each other's lives.
Argento
Oh well here I fear you are going to far.
Recently, have been banned from working at La Madeleine before midnight!Sid-I heard all gatos had been barred until after 12. Not true?
Sid-I heard all gatos had been barred until after 12. Not true?I heard the same thing. All chicas not specifically any colour have been asked not to hang around till after midnight.
Mis 2 centavos.
The OP was curious about argentinian attitudes towards asians.
I haven't been to argentina yet, but I dated a chica who was raised in Argentina. She sometimes made ridiculous comments about asians that I can't believe she said with a straight face. It really showed her ignorance, I told her this, but she acted as if she was merely stating facts.
Just a brief remark (well, maybe not too brief) here about possible racism I've encountered in Argentina recently.
I have been searching for a house outside the city for the past few weeks. I just can't stand living in the city any more. It is absolutely amazing what you can find out there for the same price that you pay in the city. More about that some other time in another post.
While looking for houses, I recently took my wife (Paraguayan) her sister and my buddy who is helping me sift through the crap required to find the right house.
We found the perfect house. Walked in, looked around, felt like it was the place. The owner was in the house with her maid and a child. The two women seemed to look after my wife and her sister with a scowl. Their gaze followed the girls while we were in their view. Though I didn't really think of it at the time, my buddy noticed it as well. I just thought it was women being women.
I made an offer on the house. Now, I don't have a guarantee, being a non-rich foreigner who can't afford to invest at that level in the real estate market for cash. However, I was offering 6 months DEPOSIT on the house in lieu of a guarantee, along with references from people who I've rented from and a personal resume which showed me to be an upstanding person.
I was turned down.
I went back and asked the agent if I could offer a "seguro de caucion." This is a not-uncommon way for people without property to get around the guarantee (but not 100% accepted by any means). A seguro de caucion is basically an insurance policy, or a bond, placed on the contract with specific payouts and what causes the payouts to occur, etc. The cost is typically 20% of the total transaction, which can be quite substantial. They are very popular in commercial transactions such as between suppliers and end users.
I was turned down.
I went to an argentino buddy of mine who owns a number of properties in Cordoba. He had offered to let me use one of his properties as a guarantee if I needed it.
I called the agent back and told them that I could have a good property in Cordoba for the guarantee, and would still back it up with a six month deposit as well (guarantees from other provinces are not as stong but do count for something)
I was turned down.
I talked to the agent and asked what the deal was, and she told me suddenly the owner was more interested in selling the house than renting it because they had a "family problem."
This whole thing took place over the course of a day and a half, from the time I saw the house, to the time I made the offers and was finally turned down. Hard to imagine a family problem that crops up that quickly.
So my buddy and I were out on another day of house hunting, when over lunch he told me "you know, I've been looking for a way to say this, but here it is; have you thought of not mentioning to anyone that you are married to a Paraguayan when looking for a house? Including not bringing her with you?" He went on to mention how many argentinos feel about people from other countries, but particularly Paraguay.
The fact is, I had heard of such a thing, but it never once occurred to me that this really could be an issue. Such naivete.
I talked to the agent today who is helping me land the latest house I've made an offer on. She is a boliviana. I told her about the first house I made an offer on and asked her if it was likely lost as a result of my wife's nationality. She said "almost certainly. Even had you not told me about the scowls I would have suggested that bringing your wife or mentioning her was a bad idea for that very reason." She said that the "family problem" excuse was most likely just a polite way of saying "you're not going to be accepted no matter what you offer." Unless I had offered to buy the house, probably.
Now, I can't point to this and say definitely that it was. It is a very circumstancial case. Maybe my ego is bruised because I couldn't get in the perfect house. Maybe they absolutely had to have a guarantee from BA province and wouldn't consider anything else. Maybe they don't like Americans! Who knows.
But it fits.
And by the way - I just wanted to make a comment about someone below calling the US the most racist country.
Every country in the world has problems with race, guaranteed. If there is a country that doesn't, there is not a mixture of different races and other races never visit.
But the US is one of the few countries in the world, in my opinion, that actively acknowledges the problem and actively tries to fight it, instead of kind of hiding it and / or accepting it as a different way of looking at things (as I saw someone else make a comment on racism)
If racism were such a problem in the US, you would not be seeing a black presidential candidate with as much possibility as Obama in a million years, no matter WHAT the opposition did in the previous 8 years.
If racism were such a problem in the US, you would not be seeing a black presidential candidate with as much possibility as Obama in a million years, no matter WHAT the opposition did in the previous 8 years.And that's exactly the reason Obama will lose: racism.
In spite of, after the terrifying administration of Bush.
And that's exactly the reason Obama will lose: racism.
In spite of, after the terrifying administration of Bush, even a monkey with a mask of John Wayne will be choosed as president:DI love all of you bigots!
Has anyone considered that Obama was the only one to go up against Hilary Clinton and had the audacity to win? Obama will not lose because he is black.
He will not win, because as Geraldine Ferraro said, "If this guy was white you would be going who?" Obama won because Americans were willing to vote for him just because he is black. He is not qualified. He is a man who has not accomplished anything yet. He is less qualified than Palin. That is saying something! The Democratic party has fallen victim to their fear of what the Clintons can do to them and therefore given away an election that should just have been theirs because of the last eight years of George Bush. Way to go you certainly know how to fuck things up. Come to think of it this is proof again that the fundamentals that party has going for it, just like the Republicans, go out the window the second they come into power. This is one of the most treacherous times in our nations history not due to the war in Iraq, which is bad, but because of all the loose money that we Democrats helped create in forcing lending institutions to give loans to people who did not qualify. Any moron could see this coming and yet no one did anything to stop it. I got to fucking see it in the banking industry. Instead of gradually loosening the purse strings they let greed overcome them and they threw the money on the floor. It is just plain fucking insane.
Any moron could see this coming and yet no one did anything to stop it.Hi Snowbird,
Actually, that's not entirely correct, given that in 2006 John McCain tried (and failed) to get the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005 passed.
Obama brazenly blames John McCain and the GOP for the current Wall Street mess when it's clear none of it was due to Republican policies. The truth of the matter is that it was McCain and three GOP colleagues who sought to reform the government 's lending policies three long years ago after the Bush administration had failed two years earlier. On May 25, 2006, McCain spoke on behalf of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, and warned against the debacle we are now facing if it failed to pass.
He told the Senate that a report by the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight charged that "Fannie Mae employees deliberately and intentionally manipulated financial reports to hit earnings targets in order to trigger bonuses for senior executives. "
McCain warned, "If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole. "
McCain predicted the entire collapse we now are suffering through. He stressed the falsification of financial records to benefit executives, including Obama advisers Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson.
Now Obama has the nerve to try to pin the blame on McCain and the GOP when the facts show that the blame must be pinned on the Democratic donkey.
And that's exactly the reason Obama will lose: racism.
In spite of, after the terrifying administration of Bush.Yeah I know, and the conspiracy of the Behind-The-Scenes-Rulers in the States is strong enough to ensure that Obama makes a good standing in the race, but will actually cause the "good guy" WASP to win. The racist Rulers can then breathe a sigh of relief and know that the country is safe from the black menace once again, while fooling the American people into feeling that they have come one step closer to eliminating racism.
That's about the only thing that I can see that would explain Obama being ahead in the polls and that RACISM is what is going to make him lose.
That actually sounds a lot like my ex-wife and her less-than-cognitive way of explaining how the world works. One of the many reasons I divorced her.
Snowbird makes a very good point - if Obama loses it will be because he should have never been a serious candidate to being with.
Obama shows so strong because there are many, many people who are ready to vote for a black man (and / or a woman) The problem is, the democrats chose the wrong person period.
I don't give a rat's ass about race or gender. Give me the best person and I will vote for him / her (it? The english language has more problem with gender than it does race, I think)
But it isn't Obama. Just like I would never in a million years have voted for Jesse Jackson. Although admitedly that is a horse of a completely different color (I hope all can recognize the joke / pun and not think me a racist)
As El Queso's story illustrates, racism in Argentina is a bit more subtle, especially for gringos used to the whole black vs. white thing.
That owner will maybe lose some money (a month's rent? more?). But she's such a dumbass, she doesn't even realize it. Some consolation, though. I believe in letting the market punish idiots like that.
How racism in Argentina suddenly became a discussion about politics in the U. S. Is beyond me but IMHO saying that Obama is less qualified than Palin is TOTALLY FUCKING RIDICULOUS. Her nomination is all politics and she is a hypocrite totally lacking in substance. BTW I spent about half a year living in Alaska and the bustling metroplis of Juneau doesn't have as much going on as Fayetteville, Arkansas so how governing in this region prepares you for a career in international politics is beyond me. Also, I think that it is really funny that people are objecting to Obama on the grounds that he is a black man because he is BARELY black. He is, in fact, half white and was raised ALL OF HIS LIFE by a white family. He's only been black for about 10 years. Right about the time that he got serious about politics! Lol!!!! The great thing about living in a free country is freedom of choice. If you want to elect a fossil for president go right ahead. I nominate the T Rex exhibit in the lobby of the natural history museum in Chicago.
How racism in Argentina suddenly became a discussion about politics in the U. S. Is beyond me. Well, that's rpetty easy. It was started off by an argentino claiming that the US is so full of racism that Obama will lose the race, even after 8 years of Bush. A straight comparison between Argentino racism and US racism. Valid I think, as long as it doesn't go too far.
And that's exactly the reason Obama will lose: racism.
In spite of, after the terrifying administration of Bush.Well the election hasn't been held and Obama is currently (on average) ahead in the polls by three percent. I do find Bush problematic but remember that McCain is not Bush. I don't know if you are from the US but basically for the past 6 decades elections have been decided by 20% of the voters. The Republicans almost always net 40% of the vote and the Democrats almost always net 40% of the vote, it's the 20% of the electorate that are the swing vote that politicians aim for. I am sure that some Whites (and Asians and Latinos) may not vote for him because he is Black (really biracial) but I think the over riding concern is not whether he is Black but whether he is "Red". His mother and father and he himself in college and during his community organizing days were much further to the left than your average American. I actually think if he were White, that given his long association with Jeremiah Wright and his association with the unapologetic ex-Weatherman Bill Ayers among others, he wouldn't have made it this fair.
Whoever wins will very likely have to scrap whatever broad spending agendas they have because of severe monetary constraints. Our bankers (The Saudis, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, and other countries who have bought large amounts of US debt) are royally pissed off (as well they should be) and will have to be appeased to some degree. Dad is taking the credit card away.
DjFourMoney
09-27-08, 03:02
This is America's Litmus Test and race is a constant battle in America, because I would say fully 2/3'rds would tell you Black people think Racism is the Boogie Man actually and doesn't exist.
Obama will either get the "Tom Bradley Effect" or he'll crush McCain, we'll know soon enough.
I don't believe the polls, its soley for the media to use to get you to watch their programing.
Reality says in many states Obama is up by 3-4% points. The large Black turnout will cancel out the racist vote. The large Latino turnout will cancel the Indie vote which is totally overrated and lastly the media is not counting on the youth vote and that's where the difference will be made. Trust me
This is America's Litmus Test and race is a constant battle in America, because I would say fully 2/3'rds would tell you Black people think Racism is the Boogie Man actually and doesn't exist.
Obama will either get the "Tom Bradley Effect" or he'll crush McCain, we'll know soon enough.
I don't believe the polls, its soley for the media to use to get you to watch their programing.
Reality says in many states Obama is up by 3-4% points. The large Black turnout will cancel out the racist vote. The large Latino turnout will cancel the Indie vote which is totally overrated and lastly the media is not counting on the youth vote and that's where the difference will be made. Trust meSounds about right. It seems like forever that the "youth vote" has been anticipated to make a difference. It has yet to happen, so we will see this time around.
I believe in letting the market punish idiots like that.Like a kind of God's Punishment, no?
Pitiy Kant didn't knew about the Religion of the Market when he wrote the Metaphysics of Morals in 1797 :)
A few comments on racism from the suburbs of Buenos Aires since I've been here.
First, I don't know what the custom is here in Argentina, but where I come from, within a couple of days of moving in (often the day of or the day immediately after) people come over and introduce themselves, welcoming new neighbors to the neighborhood. We received none of that. Not one single person said a word to us for the first three weeks (exdept for the guards, who have been very nice for the most part, with one minor exception) My wife finally had a small conversation with one neighbor yesterday, planning how we are going to fix the mess of the plants that have grown wild between our two houses, left by the owner of the house we are renting.
It turns out that being married to a Paraguayan and having a Paraguayan working as a maid in the household allows one to see a little more closely into the behind-the-scenes goings-on in Argentina's suburbs.
I live in a relatively small, 50 lot closed neighborhood, in which most of the houses have maids, and to my knowledge, every one of them are Paraguayas. Paraguayans seek each other out fairly quickly when in new surroundings and my wife and our maid started making contacts fairly rapidly.
So within two days of moving in, although no one had bothered to welcome us to the neighborhood, I received news from our next door neighbor (not the one who talked to my wife about the plants, but the other side) that she was not pleased that Paraguayans had moved in next door.
In fact, we had been playing our stereo the day of and the day following our move-in. I had been careful to control the volume because I didn't want to have any problems with the neighbors, particularly on the first couple of days moving in.
The complaint was that "those damned [malditos] Paraguayans that moved in next door had better not cause a lot of problems and play their music loud or I will go to the administration and have them kicked out as soon as possible." The comment was from the lady of the house, to her PARAGUAYAN maid! According to Clara, the maid, her patrona was quite upset that she was going to have to put up with Paraguayans living next door and surely their entire family and all of their friends would come in a spill over into their yard, and all sorts of idiotic remarks. Of course, it's really telling that she doesn't even give pause to think to WHOM she is complaining.
That was shared in the first meeting of my wife, our maid, and Clara. Of course, both of them were very upset to hear this. When Clara the maid found out that the neighbor patron (I. E. Me) was actually estadounidense, she promptly returned to her patrona to give her the news. Upon which her patrona practically gushed with enthusiasm that at least there would be some control "over there."
Since then, we have learned some very interesting (read, "idiotic") things about our next door neighbor and her semi-missing husband that we would really rather not know about and don't need to be discussed in this thread (and others - it's a soap here, with the husbands and wives apparently floating around in a haze of inter-marital sex)
So, I'm thinking we're ok. I don't like the way things started out, but at least I can be a moderating influence.
That first weekend we had a houseful of Paraguayans that were over helping us move into our house. It's nice having family and they all turned out to help. I cooked asado and we had a little fiesta, nothing obnoxious.
The following weekend my wife invited her family out again for some asado and we swam in the pool. A good time was had by all.
The following Monday, one of the guards stopped the maid as she was leaving the neighborhood to go to the carniceria to buy some meat and actually asked her if we were running some sort of a brothel because they noticed how many Paraguayan women were coming in, mixed with some guys here and there. The maid had to assure the guards that this was not the case, that it was family coming to visit.
I talked to the guards at that point and told them that if they had any problems with what was going on in my household that they could certainly talk to me and not my employees. They fell all over themselves apologizing.
Last weekend I went into town to meet with my programmers over some accounting issues. My lead guy, who had originally put up one of his properties to help me with the guarantee that I needed said "man, I have something that I need to talk to you about, that you are not going to like."
He went on to tell me that the administrator called him and said she had to get some references from him related to me, because apparently there have been complaints that I have "too many Paraguayans" in my house and that we are surely up to something no good.
He told the lady that this is not the case, that I am above reproach, and furthermore, he would let me know about the government agency that deals with racism and unfair practices.
The thing that really gets me about this is that we have kept to our (private) backyard, kept the noise down, and have actually had MANY more ex-pats from the States and Argentinos over here than we have had Paraguayan family members.
Last weekend one of the Argentinos in the neighborhood had a 14 year old kid with a birthday. They used the clubhouse, which is about two blocks from my house, to have a party. It started about 8:00 pm Friday night and went on until after 1:00 am. They had the music turned up so loud I could hardly hear myself think.
We had a young lady (yes, a family member of my wife) who came to stay with us for a couple of days, and then found out that one of the families, whose neighboring maid we knew, was looking for a young Paraguaya to look after their children while they were at work. The two are lawyers and they are in the city from early in the morning until into the evening. The kids are 4 and 6. One of them in school.
I won't go into the rigamarole that she went through to actually get into the job here.
However, once in the position, she found out that they are not very thoughtful people.
She is allowed to eat lunch with the kids, but apparently dinner is not included. The first night the mother comes home from work and begins to prepare milanesa. The Paraguaya's mouth is watering because she's not had breakfast, and only had a small lunch with the kids that she had prepared earlier.
Imagine her surprise when the patrona put out four plates and four pieces of milanesa on the table and the family sat down to eat without a word to the poor girl who was quite hungry.
A few comments on racism from the suburbs of Buenos Aires since I've been here.
First, I don't know what the custom is here in Argentina, but where I come from, within a couple of days of moving in (often the day of or the day immediately after) people come over and introduce themselves, welcoming new neighbors to the neighborhood. We received none of that. Not one single person said a word to us for the first three weeks (exdept for the guards, who have been very nice for the most part, with one minor exception) My wife finally had a small conversation with one neighbor yesterday, planning how we are going to fix the mess of the plants that have grown wild between our two houses, left by the owner of the house we are renting.
It turns out that being married to a Paraguayan and having a Paraguayan working as a maid in the household allows one to see a little more closely into the behind-the-scenes goings-on in Argentina's suburbs.
I live in a relatively small, 50 lot closed neighborhood, in which most of the houses have maids, and to my knowledge, every one of them are Paraguayas. Paraguayans seek each other out fairly quickly when in new surroundings and my wife and our maid started making contacts fairly rapidly.
So within two days of moving in, although no one had bothered to welcome us to the neighborhood, I received news from our next door neighbor (not the one who talked to my wife about the plants, but the other side) that she was not pleased that Paraguayans had moved in next door.
In fact, we had been playing our stereo the day of and the day following our move-in. I had been careful to control the volume because I didn't want to have any problems with the neighbors, particularly on the first couple of days moving in.
The complaint was that "those damned [malditos] Paraguayans that moved in next door had better not cause a lot of problems and play their music loud or I will go to the administration and have them kicked out as soon as possible." The comment was from the lady of the house, to her PARAGUAYAN maid! According to Clara, the maid, her patrona was quite upset that she was going to have to put up with Paraguayans living next door and surely their entire family and all of their friends would come in a spill over into their yard, and all sorts of idiotic remarks. Of course, it's really telling that she doesn't even give pause to think to WHOM she is complaining.
That was shared in the first meeting of my wife, our maid, and Clara. Of course, both of them were very upset to hear this. When Clara the maid found out that the neighbor patron (I. E. Me) was actually estadounidense, she promptly returned to her patrona to give her the news. Upon which her patrona practically gushed with enthusiasm that at least there would be some control "over there."
Since then, we have learned some very interesting (read, "idiotic") things about our next door neighbor and her semi-missing husband that we would really rather not know about and don't need to be discussed in this thread (and others - it's a soap here, with the husbands and wives apparently floating around in a haze of inter-marital sex)
So, I'm thinking we're ok. I don't like the way things started out, but at least I can be a moderating influence.
That first weekend we had a houseful of Paraguayans that were over helping us move into our house. It's nice having family and they all turned out to help. I cooked asado and we had a little fiesta, nothing obnoxious.
The following weekend my wife invited her family out again for some asado and we swam in the pool. A good time was had by all.
The following Monday, one of the guards stopped the maid as she was leaving the neighborhood to go to the carniceria to buy some meat and actually asked her if we were running some sort of a brothel because they noticed how many Paraguayan women were coming in, mixed with some guys here and there. The maid had to assure the guards that this was not the case, that it was family coming to visit.
I talked to the guards at that point and told them that if they had any problems with what was going on in my household that they could certainly talk to me and not my employees. They fell all over themselves apologizing.
Last weekend I went into town to meet with my programmers over some accounting issues. My lead guy, who had originally put up one of his properties to help me with the guarantee that I needed said "man, I have something that I need to talk to you about, that you are not going to like."
He went on to tell me that the administrator called him and said she had to get some references from him related to me, because apparently there have been complaints that I have "too many Paraguayans" in my house and that we are surely up to something no good.
He told the lady that this is not the case, that I am above reproach, and furthermore, he would let me know about the government agency that deals with racism and unfair practices.
The thing that really gets me about this is that we have kept to our (private) backyard, kept the noise down, and have actually had MANY more ex-pats from the States and Argentinos over here than we have had Paraguayan family members.
Last weekend one of the Argentinos in the neighborhood had a 14 year old kid with a birthday. They used the clubhouse, which is about two blocks from my house, to have a party. It started about 8:00 pm Friday night and went on until after 1:00 am. They had the music turned up so loud I could hardly hear myself think.For those of us ex-patriates who actually live and work here, it is a no-brainer that the mass of our neighbors are inconsiderate and pathetic pieces of ignorant dog shit. In the 18th and 19th centuries, dogshit was used to tan the hides of kids (baby goats) and was called "pure". The resultant leather was the base for woman's gloves. It was not the greatest job in the world, but the lowest of the low, eaked out a living as collectors of "pure". It is a job ideally suited to the mass of my neighbors. The only time they talk is if they think they can con you out of money or take some advantage of you. Dogshit collection is the ideal job for them. There's plenty of it in the streets around me. Naturally deposited by their dogs. They take their dogs for a walk to shit on their neighbor's path and then act indignant when their neighbor's dog shits in front of their house. The problem of course is identifying the "pure" dog shit, and once identified, distinguishing it from the 2 legged pieces of dogshit with whom we share our suburbs. And of course there could still be a use for "pure" but there sure as hell is not much demand for the 2-legged variety, homo argentenis. Untrusted and reviled by all who need to have continuous dealings with them.
Argento
Daddy Rulz
11-20-08, 23:05
They take their dogs for a walk to shit on their neighbor's path and then act indignant when their neighbor's dog shits in front of their house.This sentence sums up everything that is wrong with the wealthy and semi wealthy in and around BsAs. It's not as bad in the north, which is closer to Paraguay of course, but even there they look down on Paraguayans. Strangely enough, most of the Paraguayans I have known (not JUST Daisy and Jess) are mostly sweet people.
This sentence sums up everything that is wrong with the wealthy and semi wealthy in and around BsAs. It's not as bad in the north, which is closer to Paraguay of course, but even there they look down on Paraguayans. Strangely enough, most of the Paraguayans I have known (not JUST Daisy and Jess) are mostly sweet people.I agree - Argento's statement is really very, very true.
On Paraguayans, I would agree Daddy, that the WOMEN (for the most part) are very nice, decent people, with huge hearts.
The men can be a very, very different animal though. Many Paraguayan men are useless asswipes who sit around their "house" (or whatever hovel they have managed to provide that they call home) and demand that their women get out and work because the poor guys can't find work, but their wives sure as hell can for a piddly U$S 50 a month as a maid (for example) or go to Argentina or Spain to work as whores to keep their family going.
There is some pathology there with these guys - it is a VERY common phenomenon. I think it has to do with the War of the Triple Alliance in the 1860s when so many Paraguayan men were killed.
From the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Triple_Alliance):
"The specific numbers of casualties are hotly disputed, but it has been estimated that 300,000 Paraguayans, mostly civilians, died; up to 90% of the male population may have been killed. According to one numerical estimation, the prewar population of approximately 525,000 Paraguayans was reduced to about 221,000 in 1871, of which only about 28,000 were men. Definitively accurate casualty numbers will probably never be determined."
Men became a precious commodity afterward and to this day the Paraguayan women go out of their way to make sure that even 20, 21, 22 year old men are taken care of like kids, who then go out afterward and insist that their woman provide for the family as well (remember, this is just my theory as to why they are so much the way they are - I'm sure there are other reasons that I'm not seeing, to go along)
So an ex-pat comes along and treats a Paraguayan woman humanely (even somewhat - there is a lot of room for variance there) and they are his for the taking! And they still remember who they are with and are very, very grateful for decent treatment, sometimes embarrassingly so.
The following Monday, one of the guards stopped the maid as she was leaving the neighborhood to go to the carniceria to buy some meat and actually asked her if we were running some sort of a brothel because they noticed how many Paraguayan women were coming in, mixed with some guys here and there. The maid had to assure the guards that this was not the case that it was family coming to visit.
I talked to the guards at that point and told them that if they had any problems with what was going on in my household that they could certainly talk to me and not my employees. They fell all over themselves apologizing.El Queso,
I think you were very polite and generous in your response. My experience with, prejudices, idiotic behaviors, comments to women friends walking by construction sites, is to jump in and confront directly. I would have told guards their comments were unacceptable, full of prejudice, idiotic, and if at the end of the day they still had their jobs they are to apologize to the maid and refrain from ever making such a stupid comment. These idiots basically called your wife and her guests prostitutes. Also, I would have told them I was going to talk to their boss and if at the end of the day I didn't talk to their boss and didn't file a complaint against them, it's only because I was feeling a little generous.
Confront this crap head on or they'll never respect you.
I haven't been following this thread closely, but I heard of some real bad behaviour towards black people here in Argentina. Today I was in a cafe and this very dark black girl came in and I realized she was possibly from US (the Spanish accent and all)
Young girl, quite nice loooking and fit actually, she sat next to me and we started talking. She is here now for 3 month (almost finished her stay) learning Spanish and so on. She was almost in tears regarding how men treat her here, absolutely appalled by the disrespect and abuse she was getting.
I was listening with interest as I realised she was a bit mixing up racism with how latin men behave towards women, of any colour. She was of course subjected to both in a bad way.
I didn't really get all of it until I saw almost every man or woman passing by including waiters in the cafe were staring at her really strangely, in two ways, first like something alien, second a bit of disrespect. Until then I really didn't realized what she was talking about. The latin relationship between men and women doesn't bother me as I'm almost fed up with all the pc bs in the west (going against all the million years of instinct and nature) but I was appalled about that extra layer of abuse she was receiving. It was all confirmed when the waiter came to get her credit card for payment, even with my broken Spanish I noticed he was very rude to her!
Just terrible if you ask me, what's wrong with these people.
Excellent post, Uniz. Unfortunately racism and antisemitism are alive and well in Argentina. Two nights ago in a cab going home, the driver asked me where I was from and when I told him the U. S. He asked me what I thought about Obama as president. The dialog went like this:
Me: I think he is just fine.
Driver: But he is black!
Me: Yes, and he is a good man.
Driver: Did you vote for him?
Me: Yes.
Driver: How could you vote for him, he is a black!
Me: I voted for him because I thought he was the best man.
(At this point he just shakes his head, he can't believe it.
Driver: Your white house is now your black house!
(Now I am at my destination and leave with relief)
Even the damm taxi drivers are REPUBLICANS!
From now on I am walking.
Excellent post, Uniz. Unfortunately racism and antisemitism are alive and well in Argentina. Two nights ago in a cab going home, the driver asked me where I was from and when I told him the U. S. He asked me what I thought about Obama as president. The dialog went like this:
Me: I think he is just fine.
Driver: But he is black!
Me: Yes, and he is a good man.
Driver: Did you vote for him?
Me: Yes.
Driver: How could you vote for him, he is a black!
Me: I voted for him because I thought he was the best man.
(At this point he just shakes his head, he can't believe it.
Driver: Your white house is now your black house!
(Now I am at my destination and leave with relief)
Wow. After 7 pages and 99 threads, I am getting a bad image of Argentina. I know it's all generalizations but some of the personal experiences witnessed and suffered by some of the fellow mongers leaves a rancid taste in my mouth after reading all of these stories. As an Asian guy, I don't think I would be welcome to this country. I have always found blond Argentinian women to be so exotic and appealing but this has put off any thoughts of traveling to Buenos Aires. Thanks to all of those who have put forth their honest and forthright opinions. Regards.
AllIWantIsLove
11-22-08, 03:08
... What's wrong with these people.Roughly two weeks ago seven American teenage thugs beat a Hispanic man to death on Long Island.
All I'm saying is that we've got our problems too.
Bob
Wow. After 7 pages and 99 threads, I am getting a bad image of Argentina. I know it's all generalizations but some of the personal experiences witnessed and suffered by some of the fellow mongers leaves a rancid taste in my mouth after reading all of these stories. As an Asian guy, I don't think I would be welcome to this country. I have always found blond Argentinian women to be so exotic and appealing but this has put off any thoughts of traveling to Buenos Aires. Thanks to all of those who have put forth their honest and forthright opinions. Regards.The funny thing is, for tourists, it's not that bad. Or one doesn't notice it. It depends really on how deep into the culture you get as to how bad it is.
Certainly most Argentines think they are better than everyone else, but the common person on the street will generally treat one well enough.
The truth is, it's the guys like me and some others I know who live here and see the full society, not just the hotels and the working girls and the kiosco employees, etc, who really see the racism.
The post below by Uzinuzin is kind of typical, but I don't think she was necessarily being singled out because she was black, but rather (from the sound of it) because she was beautiful.
Latin american men are absolute pigs of the most outrageous caliber when it comes to staring openly at other women, mouths hanging open like they've never seen a beautiful women before, even when they have their (often good-looking) girlfriend on the arm. Catcalls, hoots, VERY OPEN propositions ("hey baby, I can suck your pussy real good and put you in heaven", as one worker from a local labor crew shouted out to my wife a couple of days ago as she was passing by) and all manner of shitty-isms.
But I know a couple of guys of obvious Asian descent who have come here to party and have not made comments related to being any more poorly treated than any other gringo.
Roughly two weeks ago seven American teenage thugs beat a Hispanic man to death on Long Island.
All I'm saying is that we've got our problems too.
BobWell, there are pockets of idiocy in every part of the world. And while I agree that the US has its share of issues, there is a true pathology here that is much greater than the States imho. I lived in the south in the States for more than 30 years and I had never seen as much blatant racism and snobbery there as I have seen in Argentina.
Just today my wife told me that my (now) infamous next door neighbor told Clara, her nurse / maid, that it really was too bad that they didn't have Argentines living next door instead of that estadounidense with his Paraguayan menagerie. Remember that Clara is Paraguayan as well.
This is more like the US in the late 1800's / early 1900's, it seems to me.
As I have stated before, the argentines are the most [Deleted by Admin] people on the face of the earth. I have dealt with them all my life and I bash them whenever I get a chance.
Having a conversation with an argie is like having a conversation with a [Deleted by Admin] person when it comes to politics, religion, economy.
Or just about anything else.
Argies are not only racist to blacks but just about everyone else who is not born and raised in this [Deleted by Admin] country of Argentina.
They are mostly nasty to Americans, I have never seen people so envious of the US. Like these [Deleted by Admin].
They have no idea what the US. Is all about, and that is because most of them have never left thier birthsite for more than a 10 miles area.
I tell them whenever I get a chance that if it was not for the US, they would be starving.
Anyway, I have realized that no matter how you try to educate them they are just [Deleted by Admin] people who have never been read aA book or had any type of education.
I guess it comes from thier Spaniard blood who are the [Deleted by Admin] people on earth.
I will make it a point to insult as many argentine people I can.
A "white" friend, formerly married to an Argie, was just denied an AR Passport renewal! They told her to get a passport from one of her ''home'' countries of Cuba or the RD. She is now trapped in AR for months, until she gets a new passport. Meanwhile, her father is near death.Hey Sid - Just being married to an Argie doesn't entitle her to an Argentine passport so if she has one (which would seem so if she has tried to renew it) she must have Argentine nationality and has the right to renew it whenever she likes and no one can refuse it to her.
If she doesn't have Argentine nationality and she needs to renew her RD passport, she can do this at her embassy and from my experience with foreign embassies, this is done, if not in the day (I have seen the Irish embassy renew a stolen passport in less than an hour) in a day or two.
Something is not quite right with your story.
Tatshea Travel
12-03-08, 22:59
You are right Geo Eye. [Deleted by Admin] like I never saw in my life. The [Deleted by Admin]. Never knew an argie you can trust about. If you think they ever donne something disinterested is because they're waiting to take advantage some other side. Argentina is the [Deleted by Admin] country in the world.
Greetings everyone,
Let's tone down the Arge bashing here.
I have no desire to turn this into a hate website.
Thanks,
Jackson
Greetings everyone,
Let's tone down the Arge bashing here.
I have no desire to turn this into a hate website.
Thanks,
JacksonUnderstood
Sidney,
You're a pretty smart guy but, I agree with Aqua, something doesn't jive with your story.
If she is as you say from Cuba or the RD, all she needs to do is go to her embassy and ask for a Provisional Passport if there is a family emergency, which she can get in a day.
If she is an Argentinian Citizen, she cannot " under the law " be refused a passport renewal.
I think she might be pulling your chain on this one. Either that or she doesn't know her rights.
Maybe you should advise her of her rights or tell her to seek legal council.
Just a thought.
Regards,
BM.
A "white" friend, formerly married to an Argie, was just denied an AR Passport renewal! They told her to get a passport from one of her ''home'' countries of Cuba or the RD. She is now trapped in AR for months, until she gets a new passport. Meanwhile, her father is near death.
Where are the left-of-center Democrats on this board? Not a single one of you took issue with a fellow member equating Republicans with racists. Incredible!
Even the damm taxi drivers are REPUBLICANS!
From now on I am walking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormy.
Excellent post, Uniz. Unfortunately racism and antisemitism are alive and well in Argentina. Two nights ago in a cab going home, the driver asked me where I was from and when I told him the U. S. He asked me what I thought about Obama as president. The dialog went like this:
Me: I think he is just fine.
Driver: But he is black!
Me: Yes, and he is a good man.
Driver: Did you vote for him?
Me: Yes.
Driver: How could you vote for him, he is a black!
Me: I voted for him because I thought he was the best man.
(At this point he just shakes his head, he can't believe it.
Driver: Your white house is now your black house!
(Now I am at my destination and leave with relief)
Hi, Jackson:
After six years of working in the forum, I think I've got the right; at least, to say that GEO EYE's and TATSHEA TRAVEL's posts are OFFENSIVE AND DEROGATORY with MY COUNTRY AND MY PEOPLE.
But this is the least I can say about this kind of posters who think they're entitled to educate others when they're lack of any kind of education and it's easy for everybody to check their posts to realize that they are always derogatory to EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE and this only happens because this kind of posters are simply a frustrated, destructive, negative and hopeless entity.
I feel that this kind of posters are the kind that MAKES THE VAST MAJORITY OF FORUM READERS TO DECIDE NOT TO POST BECAUSE NOBODY LIKES TO BE PART OF A LOW QUALITY AND RUDE FORUM.
We've been talking about this: THE DAMAGE THAT THIS KIND OF POSTERS CAUSE TO THE FORUM, two days ago although we've been talking about this for years.
The forum is like the top of an iceberg. THERE'S A BIGGER AMOUNT OF EDUCATED PEOPLE BELOW THE SURFACE WAITING FOR A CLEAR SIGN TO START CONTRIBUTING WITH THIS FORUM IN A POSITIVE AND HIGH QUALITY WAY. I MEET THEM EVERYDAY AND I'VE RECEIVED THEIR EMAILS FOR THE LAST SIX YEARS.
Roxanne.
I think the readers of this forum need to hear differing opinions, good and bad, of Argentina.
Four years ago I started a business in Argentina. I wish I had known then that I would be dealing with the most corrupt, dishonest and incompetent people imagineable.
To know how Argentineans think about their own business practices go to the local escort forums. The Argentineans posting on those forums do not have words to adequately describe their disgust for the dishonesty and incompetenty of the privados of Buenos Aires.
You can close your eyes, hide your head in the sand, but at the end of the day Argentina will disappoint. It is better that the readers of this forum are introduced to the Argentina we know and love - it was a mess yesterday, it is a mess today and it will be a mess tomorrow.
One reason Argentineans might think extranjeros are being overly critical of Argentina is because Argentineans can not imagine a society of honest people rewarding honest business practices. That is an alien concept.
The idea of personal honesty and honest business practices undoubtedly exists somewhere in Argentina but right now I cannot pinpoint where that would be
I think the readers of this forum need to hear differing opinions, good and bad, of Argentina.
Four years ago I started a business in Argentina. I wish I had known then that I would be dealing the most corrupt, dishonest and incompetent people imagineable.
To know how Argentineans think about their own business practices go to the local escort forums. The Argentineans posting on those forums do not have words to adequately describe their disgust for the dishonesty and incompetenty of the privados of Buenos Aires.
You can close your eyes, hide your head in the sand, but at the end of the day Argentina will disappoint. It is better that the readers of this forum are introduced to the Argentina we know and love - it is a mess.
One reason Argentineans might think extranjeros are being overly critical of Argentina is because Argentineans can not imagine a society of honest people rewarding honest business practices. That is an alien concept.
The idea of personal honesty and honest business practices undoubtedly exists somewhere in Argentina but right now I cannot pinpoint where that would beI agree and that is after 19 years experience. Well may Roxanne bleat about how uneducated those of us who post negative reports of our experiences. I don't know El Alamo personally, but on his posts that I have read, he is obviously a university educated person. So am I for that matter. The experiences we recount and post are not those of the average forum members. Those that live and post here are in the main retirees and they really only interface with Argentinians in the process of consuming and so their experiences are strictly limited. Ask El Alamo, El Queso and me and unless you consider us liars, as Stan de Man does, we will give you the untarnished truth as we experienced it. Take it or leave it. I wasn't aware that the forum's objective was, for those of us who post, to gild the lily and tell lies.
The other interesting corollary to El Alamo's post, is that the experience continually repeats itself. No matter how you seek to avoid the pitfalls by carefull planning, the law of this jungle forces you to be caught up by the 'most corrupt, dishonest and incompetent people imaginable'.
So I guess we wish it would be different but it ain't.
Argento
Stan Da Man
12-05-08, 00:19
I agree and that is after 19 years experience. Well may Roxanne bleat about how uneducated those of us who post negative reports of our experiences. I don't know El Alamo personally, but on his posts that I have read, he is obviously a university educated person. So am I for that matter. The experiences we recount and post are not those of the average forum members. Those that live and post here are in the main retirees and they really only interface with Argentinians in the process of consuming and so their experiences are strictly limited. Ask El Alamo, El Queso and me and unless you consider us liars, as Stan de Man does, we will give you the untarnished truth as we experienced it. Take it or leave it. I wasn't aware that the forum's objective was, for those of us who post, to gild the lily and tell lies.
The other interesting corollary to El Alamo's post, is that the experience continually repeats itself. No matter how you seek to avoid the pitfalls by carefull planning, the law of this jungle forces you to be caught up by the 'most corrupt, dishonest and incompetent people imaginable'.
So I guess we wish it would be different but it ain't.
ArgentoI wouldn't call you a liar. I would just say you are a truth-varnishing-lily-gilder. Actually, I'd just say we had a difference of opinion and hope to leave it at that.
On something like this, it's a complete matter of opinion. I find it hard to believe that Argies are as corrupt and loathsome as you all paint them to be. Then again, you are living there and I am not, so you certainly have a much firmer foundation for an opinion than I do.
I've been there for six weeks in chunks of one week at a time and definitely have not interfaced with general members of society as one does when they live their day-to-day life there. So, take this for what it's worth. Probably not much, I'd agree. Nonetheless, here's my less-informed perspective.
The biggest difference between Argentines and folks from other countries that I've seen is this: Every Argie I've met seems to be of the opinion that every other Argie (except themselves) is a villain. When you ask them their opinion about their fellow countrymen, they are almost universally dour. I've never seen a country where everyone is so down on each other. Even citizens of really poor countries have more self-esteem -- they usually just blame all their problems on the government.
Again, I don't pretend to have any keen insight based on years of living amongst the local populace. I do find it surprising that several of you who work and do business there seem to share the same very negative opinion about Argentine citizens. It certainly lends some credence to what you say, but I also can't see how a society that is so corrupt, lazy and contemptible could get out of the stone age.
So, in all candor and without any pretext, let me ask this: Why do you three stay there? Are there no redeeming facets to life and / or business there? Have you sunk in roots that make it too difficult to leave? Was it a very different place a decade or two ago when you first arrived? Are you stuck now that you've invested funds in your businesses there and you're just looking for an exit path? Is it still profitable to have a business there, but only in spite of the local populace? Did you hold a different opinion of Argies before moving there and wish you hadn't done so now? Do you stay out of hope that things will change? What keeps you there if everyone is so utterly difficult?
Stan Da Man.
Thanks for your reply.
There are two sides to this coin. As Rock Harders always says, the reason we have $20 pussy in Buenos Aires is because Argentina is fucked.
We don't want Argentina to have an honest efficient government. There goes the $20 pussy.
In fact, in the last election, we were backing Christina because we knew that with Christina things would stay the same or become worse - if that is possible.
The last thing we wanted in the last election was Lavagna to become President. Lavagna was capable of shaping up the economy.
I think the jist of our posts is to give people who are not familiar with Argentina a heads up. Also, my direct advice to anyone thinking about doing business in Argentina is - Are you out of your fucking mind?
It is sort of like rooting for the Chicago Cubs. They might never get to the World Series but they are fun to watch.
The motto might be - Argentina - great for tourists/ bad for business
Again, I don't pretend to have any keen insight based on years of living amongst the local populace. I do find it surprising that several of you who work and do business there seem to share the same very negative opinion about Argentine citizens. It certainly lends some credence to what you say, but I also can't see how a society that is so corrupt, lazy and contemptible could get out of the stone age.They were never in the stone age. If we grab Charles Darwin's title, 'The Descent of Man', the Argentineans are descending from western European equivalents to poverty. Instead of voluntary foreign aid, they steal the money, firstly from each other and then from foreign lenders. In the last 'raid' of overseas money, they stole more than U$60 billion dollars. And that is 6 years ago. They currently owe more than U$120 billion dollars to overseas lenders and no one expects that to be repaid. From themselves the goverment has just stolen U$23 billion from people unwise enough to invest in superannuation. Now that is some "foreign aid package". I figure about U$750 per capita over 6 years. Or could it be U$75? (180 billion dollars divided by 6 years divided by 40 million people) No matter, but it is a massive subsidy and transfer of wealth from the first world to an undeserving third world nation.
Always remember that Argentina is the only nation that at the beginning of the 20th century, whose relative economic position compared with its 19th century peers such as the USA, Australia, Canada and South Africa, has not improved and now is beggaring annually somewhere around 5% of its population. Education, health, economy and political freedom indicators are in decline and have been for 20 years. The descent is into primitive society.
Argento
I know that many of my posts have been negative on certain aspects of life in Argentina. However, I don't want to come across as an "Argie hater" because that's not the case either.
Just so everyone knows. I'm not your "typical American" who complains all over the place because things are not "America." Put in your favorite ex-pat country in place of "America" to apply to anyone who thinks his homeland is the bomb and everyone else sucks.
I have traveled extensively, around the world, for the last 15 years or so. Mostly on business - I have seen some serious shitholes in the world, and really, Buenos Aires itself does not compare to most of them, as far as being as bad. In the sticks of Argentina, and much of the rest of South America, though, the poverty is almost unbelievable in this day and age, but that's another, though related, topic.
I have good reasons for some of the posts I make, but I don't hate Argentinos at all, in general. I hate some of the ways they think about things and how they act, and to tell the truth, my bitching is mostly a relief valve because without it, I would become a glum, dour-faced individual about to burst inside, much as I see many people walking through their city, faced with the same things I'm faced with.
Also, many of the things I'm posting should be read by potential immigrants - those of you who say "I'd love to come down here and live if I had the chance" but haven't really spent enough time here to know what you're getting into.
For visiting, Buenos Aires is a good place for the most part.
I was talking about this the other day with someone. When I first came to Buenos Aires more than two years ago, I was in love with the place. I brought business to Argentina and started working with a company that seemed interested in doing a good job for me. I met friends here, both ex-pats (from the US and other "first-world" countries as well from other Mercosur countries) and locals. I met my wife here.
But something happened over time. The longer you are here, the more things start happening to you that kind of bruise your spirit. It's starts with some simple things.
The food for the most part is very, very boring and usually not very well prepared. When you're a visitor, though, you're hardly here for the food. When you live here, it becomes a real issue because you are basically faced with options like milanesa, beef, pasta, empanadas or pizza every day if you want to go to a restaurant. Or you can go eat some local foods like guisos, but even those are not prepared very well.
You're a foreigner and therefore (for example) can't have something as simple as a cellular on an account but have to buy an expensive phone and feed it with cards all the time. You can't have a local bank account, so paying bills is a royal pain because you have to get your invoices together and go stand in line, bring your cash, and pay your bills at a RapiPago or a PagoFacil.
You find that you have to move often because you don't own property and the Argentine people so distrust each other that they actually require that one has property to back up a rental. You can't (easily) get into a rental situation here unless you are going to rent temporary, which is MUCH more expensive than a normal rent. And it's not your stuff, which you can't buy, because you're moving into temporary, furnished apartments.
You finally find a place where you can stay for more than a month or two. The apartment you're in is has some services that you want to upgrade (in my case it was DirectTV) So you put in a request, pay for it with your credit card, and wait PAST the 10 day period they gave you that it would be installed before you start complaining. When you call up to complain you find that the credit card with which you paid was not accepted because it is an international card. Of course, there is no way that the company would actually call you and let you know there was a problem. And since you are a foreigner with no bank account you have to go to the bank where the service does business, make a deposit directly into their account, and FAX the receipt to the company to prove you made the deposit. ON TOP OF THAT you still spend the next two and a half months trying to get that service that you actually paid for.
Meanwhile, the more you stay here, the more you have encounters with local people. People who step out of office buildings onto small, crowded sidewalks without even looking once. People in grocery stores who look neither to the left nor the right and simply push their way right through where you are to get where they want to go. Rude people who really don't give a rat's ass about anyone else. A number of things like this just startle you when you realize how crass and completely rude some can be.
Ah, it goes on and on. After awhile you get worn down. After awhile you just can't believe that people really treat each other like this. You see the way the locals treat you and your family of Paraguayans and it hurts. You try to be nice, but it really doesn't matter because they will take that niceness and rarely return it.
At the end of the day, I have a few Argentine friends. I have never been screwed by any of them. I have not been screwed purposefully, or in any big way (except a couple of taxi incidents) by Argentinos - it's just that they have a very lacsadaisical attitude toward completing things they have contracted and they often do not have the skills they represent.
My employees, everyone of them, want to move out of Argentina. Two have gone so far as to get nationality to other countries based on their ancestry. One was recently traveling through Europe and wants to go get a job in Ireland. The educated and younger people of Buenos Aires see things a lot differently than the older people who are more ensconsed, or the ignorant who think that the government will take care of them and get pissed off when it doesn't.
I should also state here that most of the attitudes discussed here may be mostly held to Portenos. I've been to Cordoba a couple of times and found the people there, in the short time I stayed, to be friendly. According to two of my programmers, who are Cordobese, the Portenos are looked down on in the rest of Argentina as being stuck up jackasses.
I have stated elsewhere that many of us have a love / hate relationship with Argentina. I am doing business here because they have a decent higher education system and are capable of producing expertise that I need, at a far cheaper price than I can find in the States.
HOWEVER, I find that I am considering moving out of Argentina altogether and finding another location for my business, because the entire Argentine system seems to be built to DISCOURAGE doing business. The amount of taxes and tripwires that you have to run to do things legal here are astounding at times.
However, where on Earth can you go where immigration policies are so lax and you cna basically stay without needing a visa?
People have a very relaxed attitude about many things. People here know, for the most part, how to relax, even if they don't have a lot of the things to do that many of us may be used to in other places to relax. In fact here, they work to live, not live to work, and that is good for the individuals who work here, but not so good for the people who try to make a go of it business-wise.
I don't hate Argentina nor Agentines. I do hate trying to do business here. I do not feel, as an estadounidense married to a Paraguayan, that I am truly welcome here.
There are things I like about living here though, just not enough to keep me here for much more than a year or two as I figure out how to grow my business in another location that is not so hard on entrepreneurs.
Very good report El Queso,
Its for those very reason's I always enjoy boarding my flight back home.
There was a time when I serriously considered planting my self deeper into Argentina by signing a long trem lease on an apartment, maybe two years or more. Leasing an unfurnished apartment, having it redecorated to my own taste's, possibly syndicating the deal with one or two other Mongers or puting the place in the short term rental pool making the place more cost efficent when I was not there to used it.
Not anymore, now days I enjoy handing the key's to the rental agent, collecting my deposit back and saying "goodby see you next time", boarding my flight without a care in the world or seconds thoughts worrying about a commitment I've made 7,000 miles from where I live.
I too have a love, hate relationship with Argentina.
It takes time to really figure out what goes on in Buenos Aires. You have to get into the culture and learn their throught process. And after time I have learned that Argentina is a great place to visit, buy "I really wouldn't want to live their".
If anyone has noticed, nothing seams to work in Argentina, well at least it doesn't work the way it was designed to work. The whole place always seams on the verge of breaking down and sometimes it does. All of Buenos Aires seams in dis-repair, broken sidewalks and the like. Natural gas shortages in the winter, Electricty shortages in the summer, the list goe's on forever.
In time I have discovered I really don't like the food either. It is bland, with really no flavior, its expensive now day's. As an example I can buy a double whopper with cheese 20% cheaper in my home town than it cost's on Santa Fe. The burger is of much better quality back here in the USA. Service from waiters will run hot or cold depending, sometimes you get what you want sometimes you don't.
Maybe part of my problem is 4 or 5 years ago it was really cheap to live or visit Argentina. Today, with their inflation its not the bargan it was, although that seams to be changing. This last trip I got 10% more on the exchange rate than I got in July. But there again, inflation ate up a good portion of that.
Frankly the Chica's don't seam to be as beautiful as they were 4 or 5 years ago. Oh, theres some beautiful girls in Madaho's or Black, but flying 14,000 miles round trip to fuck one for $200 USD, plus drinks is no bargan. And I'm not about to stay up all night to haggle with one of them at 3 or 4 in the morning on the chance she'll due me for $400 peso's.
Frankly I feal sorry for some of my Monger ex-pate buddies whom live their and have to deal with the day to day inefficiency's of Argentina. Waiting in line for an hour or better to pay some bill. And if you don't they'll cut off the service and then you have a real problem getting it turned back on again.
Nope, I love Argentina and I'll be back 3 or 4 times next year, but I'm not going to live there. I've timed myself, it takes me between 10 days and two weeks before I "Hit The Wall", and start longing for my return flight home. Eating American food, driving my own car, speaking English, dealing in a culture which maybe I don't agree with 100 % but at least I understand.
Exon
I don't know about the rest of you but I have a love / love relationship with Argentina. I also have a love / love relationship with Paraguay.
I enjoy every minute I am in Argentina or Paraguay.
If I had to critique the governments of Argentina and Paraguay I would say the government of Argentina is beyond stupid. Paraquay seems a little more on the ball. But that doesn't affect (effect) me very much.
Argentina and Paraguay are not exactly like the United States. However, not being exactly like the United States is probably one of the reasons we live here.
The ''Blessings include:
1. Great chicas (where else could I have 3 gfe's and many others available?)
2. Great cheap food (why ''whine''? Always you guys applaud the restaurants and variety with good male service, not the bimbos in the USA)
3. Best wine, cheap!
4. Safe.
5. No need for a car.
6. Cheap apartments.
7. Many friends and fun guys to ''hang'' with.
8. Much cheaper than the USA, and about to get much cheaper.
9. Alamo, Casa Bar, and cafes.
10. TV--Bloomberg, Fox, CNN, ESPN, movies, more
11. Acceptable internet.
12. BA Herald.
13. Good weather.
14. Culture, jazz scene.
15. Discos and clubs.
16. Buses, taxis, subway, ferries
17. Much more.
-------------------------------------------------
Not so good:
1. Ignore the rude, ignorant people.
2. No beaches.
3. Travel expensive.
4. No family.
5. The miserable K, but Bush was no perfecto!More good-great architecture and very little of the ugly american corporate influence, I. E.-few fast food restaurants, and retail chains of one type of garbage or another. Also, for sports fans, most of the athletes are not overpaid and if you are a fan, you can beat the shit out of each other, the opposition, and sometimes even the cops-and damn near never get arrested!
Tatshea Travel
12-05-08, 20:55
That's it. Dogboy. Sidney. It's what am saying. In addition to excellent relation pesos-dollar, great chicks, great wines, great food. Good place, save for the people.
Tatshea Travel
12-05-08, 20:57
For those of us ex-patriates who actually live and work here, it is a no-brainer that the mass of our neighbors are inconsiderate and pathetic pieces of ignorant dog shit. In the 18th and 19th centuries, dogshit was used to tan the hides of kids (baby goats) and was called "pure". The resultant leather was the base for woman's gloves. It was not the greatest job in the world, but the lowest of the low, eaked out a living as collectors of "pure". It is a job ideally suited to the mass of my neighbors. The only time they talk is if they think they can con you out of money or take some advantage of you. Dogshit collection is the ideal job for them. There's plenty of it in the streets around me. Naturally deposited by their dogs. They take their dogs for a walk to shit on their neighbor's path and then act indignant when their neighbor's dog shits in front of their house. The problem of course is identifying the "pure" dog shit, and once identified, distinguishing it from the 2 legged pieces of dogshit with whom we share our suburbs. And of course there could still be a use for "pure" but there sure as hell is not much demand for the 2-legged variety, homo argentenis. Untrusted and reviled by all who need to have continuous dealings with them.
ArgentoI agree with you 100 % Argento.
Rock Harders
12-05-08, 21:11
Mongers,
I have lived here full-time since August 2005 and I would not ever question the decision to move here. I did not move here because the cost of living was cheap. I moved here because I liked the lifestyle here; I liked the plethora of easily available hot pussy (I did not even know about the pro action at that point) I liked the fact that here anything is possible as long as you have a bit of cash. You can still do whatever you want in Argentina and get away with it; it is not a police state like the USA. I am still of the opinion that for expats earning cash in a hard currency, Buenos Aires is hard to beat as a place to live. Where else can you find cheap and hot pussy, passable food, numerous cultural activities, no security issues, reasonable access to modern technology, and no immigration control? If you are just living here as an expat, you should love the imcompetant government that keeps sinking the ship of state every 7-10 years; it keeps the pussy, food, rents, and everything else reasonably cheap.
However, for those who have been either brave or stupid enough (you decide) to attempt to do business in Argentina, myself included, the daily grind of dealing with the lying, cheating, stealing, and inefficiency can really start to wear you out. Doing business in a place where following the laws makes it actually impossible to make a profit is absurd. The labor laws, tax laws, corruption, and organized labor situation dictate that in the long run, profits cannot be made and retained by businesses operating completely legal in Argentina.
Suerte,
Rock Harders
Tatshea Travel
12-05-08, 21:40
That's it Rock. And I also heard you say at El Alamo that portenos are the [Deleted by Admin] fellows ever. As you point out you can't do business with them because they'll try immediately to rip you off. That's why I point out before: come to Argentina with money to spend, and you'll have european chics cheaper than anywhere. Also you can buy real estate (but not to live in! A buy-sell operation) But not confide in them. I consider here is the point what Geo Eye, Dogboy, Sidney, you and me keep saying. Stay here, but don't mess too much with this shit (Argento's saying), save the chicks, of course.
And one word about Roxanna's post: baby, you were left alone in your argumentation. Either this forum is only read by American people, or Argies are so [Deleted by Admin] to elaborate any answer. I'm inclined to the second possibility.
Mongers-
I have lived here full-time since August 2005 and I would not ever question the decision to move here. I did not move here because the cost of living was cheap. I moved here because I liked the lifestyle here; I liked the plethora of easily available hot pussy (I did not even know about the pro action at that point) I liked the fact that here anything is possible as long as you have a bit of cash. You can still do whatever you want in Argentina and get away with it; it is not a police state like the USA. I am still of the opinion that for expats earning cash in a hard currency, Buenos Aires is hard to beat as a place to live. Where else can you find cheap and hot pussy, passable food, numerous cultural activities, no security issues, reasonable access to modern technology, and no immigration control? If you are just living here as an expat, you should love the imcompetant government that keeps sinking the ship of state every 7-10 years; it keeps the pussy, food, rents, and everything else reasonably cheap.
However, for those who have been either brave or stupid enough (you decide) to attempt to do business in Argentina, myself included, the daily grind of dealing with the lying, cheating, stealing, and inefficiency can really start to wear you out. Doing business in a place where following the laws makes it actually impossible to make a profit is absurd. The labor laws, tax laws, corruption, and organized labor situation dictate that in the long run, profits cannot be made and retained by businesses operating completely legal in Argentina.
Suerte,
Rock HardersMan, you have said it best. You are correct. It is all about the hot pussy.
Just about no law. And plenty of freedom. I guess it is best said.
Make the great wealth where there is great opportunity and enjoy the cheap.
Life here in ba. Fucking, drinking decent wine and decent food.
And let the rest of the bastard fight each other.
That's it Rock. And I also heard you say at El Alamo that portenos are the stupiest dumbest fellows ever. As you point out you can't do business with them because they'll try inmediately to rip you off. That's why I point out before: come to Argentina with money to spend, and you'll have european chics cheaper than anywhere. Also you can buy real state (but not to live in! A buy-sell operation) But not confide in them. I consider here is the point what Geo Eye, Dogboy, Sidney, you and me keep saying. Stay here, but don't mess too much with this shit (Argento's saying) save the chicks, of course.
And one word about Roxanna's post: baby, you were left alone in your argumentation. Either this forum is only read by american people, or argies are so dumb (or stupid, R. H. Motto) to elaborate any answer. I'm inclined to the second possibility.Good point. Agreed. TT
Stan Da Man
12-06-08, 00:38
Great answers Argento, El Alamo, El Queso, Sidney and all the rest. I am very interested in the subject, and I appreciate the details. It seems like there are many different opinions about Argentina, and most folks like many things about the place. But, the business climate is universally condemned, and not many are willing to stand up for the "common man" Argies other than those who happen to be their close friends. The folks I've met down there have all seemed relatively decent but, again, I've had limited exposure and the only business I've done has been with clients in the country. I have not tried to set up my own business or operate there.
I guess it's not surprising that the economy appears headed for the rocks again. It's not like the rest of the world is all peaches and cream, but Argentina would appear to be a special case even under the circumstances. That's another subject that fascinates me: Why do the local citizenry continue to let governors like the Kirchners "pull the football away" like Lucy always does to Charlie Brown? Are there no semi-honest alternatives to the Kirchners, or does the system not admit of that possibility? When I've asked Argies this question, they all shrug and say that it has always been this way. Don't get me wrong, US politicians have engaged in their fair share of graft. But the Kirchners have raised it to the level of an art form.
I saw 20 video clips of "man on the street" interviews with average Argies after Ms. Kirchner announced the seizure of the pension funds. It was done by a CNN outlet down there about a month back and posted on their website. The question was whether they thought seizing the pensions was a good or bad idea. To my surprise, about 75% said they thought it was a good idea? Now, perhaps some felt that any other response could land them in hot water. That didn't seem to be the case, but I suppose it's plausible. If not, however, I can't fathom that 75% of the people are so trusting in THIS administration as to give it carte blanche authority with pension funds. Flushing the money down the toilet would be more cathartic and end up the same. At any rate, my point is that there still are many things that don't make sense to me about the reaction of the locals, but I'm admittedly a novice on the culture.
On Roxanne, I think she deserves a bit of credit. Some of the earlier comments were a bit caustic, and she was just sticking up for her country. Frankly, if more Argies shared her sentiments, the place might be in better shape. At least she seems to care. So many of the others seem to have lost faith in the place and, in particular, each other.
I'll add one last comment about a neighboring country: Brazil. Five years ago in a previous life, I and a partner had a bunch of business in Brazil. My partner had married a Brazilian gal -- Miss Rio de Janeiro from some year. He had been there much more than I and told me that there really isn't any racism in Brazil. It's such a big melting pot that they just don't have issue like that as they do in the United States. His wife said it was true, and that she couldn't believe how bad things were in the United States.
I was surprised but a bit skeptical. Then, on my second trip there, I was smoking cigs with a handful of clients in downtown Sao Paulo. A dark skinned girl passed, and they all started commenting about the fact that she must be a lazy, good for nothing Brazileira. They then began recounting stories about how all the dark skinned Brazilians are from up North; how they all just party and screw all day; how they're all worthless and will trick guys into getting them pregnant to collect child support so they can continue to sit on their asses all day; etc.; etc.
It went like that the rest of the trip (comments about good-for-nothing Jews, Persians, Asians, and especially snooty Argies) My partner was so red-faced by the end of the trip but he never did bring the subject up again. My point is only that it seems like there's a bit of racism everywhere, even where there isn't.
Well, the only way to understand the culture is through time spent. I'm plotting the next visit as I type. Good luck all, and have a great weekend.
Tatshea Travel
12-06-08, 00:54
On Roxanne, I think she deserves a bit of credit. Some of the earlier comments were a bit caustic, and she was just sticking up for her country. Frankly, if more Argies shared her sentiments, the place might be in better shape. At least she seems to care. So many of the others seem to have lost faith in the place and, in particular, each other. The answer is simple Stan Da Man: no argies supported Roxanne's comment because... They don't even know to write in english! They're so [Deleted by Admin] that they can't built a strong argument to oppose what all along here is written. Take a brief look at Argentine history and you'll find out this is true. Peron, Evita, Maradona, one idiot after the other carried the mob wherever they wanted. Falklands, one military government after the other. It's a so sad and frustrating history those [Deleted by Admin] have lived no one with enough guts to change their destiny. And not contented with this they blame and mock us American people every time they can, they bad mouth us when they can. Must I regret myself when I call them one more time the [Deleted by Admin]?
Stan Da Man
12-06-08, 01:39
Well, that's just not true. I correspond with several Argentines there on a daily basis. They work for the clients I work with when I'm there. They have great English skills. They just don't read this board. In a similar thread, Jackson himself has said that this board is primarily read by non-Argentines, so I'm not sure why there would be an expectation of a wellspring of civic pride when the board is almost exclusively the province of non-Argies or expats living there.
I take your main point as being that most Argies don't speak English. That may be so. I'm not suggesting that all Argies are well-educated and speak fluent English. I will, however, say that most Argies I've met speak better English than Americans speak Spanish. Would I be wrong to say that English is not your native tongue?
The answer is simple Stan Da Man: no argies supported Roxanne's comment because. They don't even know to write in english! They're so uncultured, rough, idiotic that they can't built a strong argument to oppose what all along here is written. Take a brief look at Argentine history and you'll find out this is true. Peron, Evita, Maradona, one idiot after the other carried the mob wherever they wanted. Falklands, one military government after the other. It's a so sad and frustrating history those stupids have lived no one with enough guts to change their destiny. And not contented with this they blame and mock us american people every time they can, they bad mouth us when they can. Must I regret myself when I call them one more time the shit of the world?
Tatshea Travel
12-06-08, 01:52
Would I be wrong to say that English is not your native tongue?You are right Stan Da Man. I'm cuban, though I spent my last 30 years in the United States. Communists make me sick.
You are right Stan Da Man. I'm cuban, though I spent my last 30 years in the United States. Communists make me sick.Are you only posting on this forum so you can badmouth Argentina? Don't you have anything better to do? If not, I would suggest you take a trip back to Havana and suck Fidel's cock. I lived in Miami for 11 years and there is one thing in this world I know I am sick of-dumb fucking cuban expats.
I concur.
Are you only posting on this forum so you can badmouth Argentina? Don't you have anything better to do? If not, I would suggest you take a trip back to Havana and suck Fidel's cock. I lived in Miami for 11 years and there is one thing in this world I know I am sick of-dumb fucking cuban expats.Regards,
BM.
Tatshea Travel
12-06-08, 10:25
Are you only posting on this forum so you can badmouth Argentina? Don't you have anything better to do? If not, I would suggest you take a trip back to Havana and suck Fidel's cock. I lived in Miami for 11 years and there is one thing in this world I know I am sick of-dumb fucking cuban expats.I'm sorry Dogboy. But why blaming only me what everybody, including you, is doing? I was many times in El Alamo even one afternoon get to know you, Rock Harder and other boys, and I heard you all laugh a lot about the [Deleted by Admin] Argentinos are. But if you tell me now the name of the game is badmouting argies in private but soften the critics when we write in this forum, I will have to do it, though I not agree. I like to say the same in public the same I say in private. That goes for every aspect of my life. As for the feeling you have for cubans, I'm sure you don't know us enough, most of our people is passing a very hard time under Fidel's dictatorship. But I'm sure one of these nights we'll have the chance to discuss it better in El Alamo.
Regards
I'm sorry Dogboy. But why blaming only me what everybody, including you, is doing? I was many times in El Alamo even one afternoon get to know you, Rock Harder and other boys, and I heard you all laugh a lot about the stupids argentinos are. But if you tell me now the name of the game is badmouting argies in private but soften the critics when we write in this forum, I will have to do it, though I not agree. I like to say the same in public the same I say in private. That goes for every aspect of my life. As for the feeling you have for cubans, I'm sure you don't know us enough, most of our people is passing a very hard time under Fidel's dictatorship. But I'm sure one of these nights we'll have the chance to discuss it better in El Alamo. Regards.TT-I don't recall ever meeting you, at the Alamo, or elsewhere. I could be wrong. I am rarely at the Alamo. As for badmouthing Argentinos, it takes alot to get me to go there, but it does happen. My beef is this-the Argentina bashing lately has been out of control. I have a particular problem with the idea that this bashing tends to attract posters who like to "pile on". That is mob mentality and fucking ugly. Anyway, kudos to you for not biting at my Castro's cock provocation. Impressive.
I will, however, say that most Argies I've met speak better English than Americans speak Spanish.That's a fact.
Tatshea Travel
12-06-08, 12:29
TT-I don't recall ever meeting you, at the Alamo, or elsewhere. I could be wrong. I am rarely at the Alamo. As for badmouthing Argentinos, it takes alot to get me to go there, but it does happen. My beef is this-the Argentina bashing lately has been out of control. I have a particular problem with the idea that this bashing tends to attract posters who like to "pile on". That is mob mentality and fucking ugly. Anyway, kudos to you for not biting at my Castro's cock provocation. Impressive.Is O. K. Dogboy. No resentment. Some we express it in one way or another, but I check most of you old members share the same feelin about these argies. Regards.
As I have stated before, the argentines are the most ignorant...
...they are just dumb, ignorant, stupid people who have never been read a book or had any type of education.That's patently false.
Stastically, the Argentines are the best educated people in South America.
Thanks,
Jackson
And not contented with this they blame and mock us American people every time they can, they bad mouth us when they can.That's not true either, unless you spend all your time listening to leftist college professors or college students hanging out at El Alamo.
From my personal experience, most Argentine professionals and business owners generally admire Americans and America, specifically for our business climate, the efficiency of our public institutions, and the integrity of our court system, among may other facets of our society.
If you're going to hang out in the gutters of Argentina society, then you're only going to hear the gutter's perspective.
Thanks,
Jackson
Tatshea Travel
12-06-08, 13:13
That's not true either, unless you spend all your time listening to leftist college professors or college students hanging out at El Alamo.
From my personal experience, most Argentine professionals and business owners generally admire Americans and America, specifically for our business climate, the efficiency of our public institutions, and the integrity of our court system, among may other facets of our society.
If you're going to hang out in the gutters of Argentina society, then you're only going to hear the gutter's perspective.
Thanks,
JacksonOh Hi Jackson. Well to speak true I don't hear much leftist talking at El Alamo, if you take the same interpretation the word "left" has in South America. On the contrary I heard a lot of praise our american way of living, and much despising the way in which argies live. I didn't invent the word depicting argentinos you have just erased me in a former post, but was Rock Harder himself who said it, and wrote it many times in this forum: "argentinos are so s. That they don't know they are s." That I read it and I heard it many times in El Alamo. Looks now I'm the only one who bashes on argentine people, and nobody here ever said something offensive to them.
As regarding to the other aspect of your comment, you are right. The educated people at argentina (not many) respect U. S. A. And its institution, but the rest of the country that's it almost all despise us and mock at our values. You only have to go outside Belgrano or Recoleta and you'll hear them.
Thanks Jackson for taking the time for your comments and excuse me if I said some time some words I should not say. Regards.
I just went back and read this thread from beginning to end.
I WANT THAT 20 MINUTES OF MY LIFE BACK!
I have no love of the Argentine way of life or its government. But I love vacationing in Argentina. How much more is necessary to say other than that?
As for a lack of Argentinos "defending" Rox on this thread - don't you think that Argentinos interested in pussy would be frequenting one of the very large, very active local boards? This size of this place is a fraction of Foro Escorts, for example. Why read a small board in a foreign language when you can read a huge board in your local language?
Tatshea, my Cuban friend, I am looking forward to visiting your country soon. The women are hot, and as I have discovered they are completely slutty. Now why don't you do us all a favor and post some useful information that mongers in Argentina would be interested in? We all gave up on Geo Eye a long time ago, but there is hope for you, I think.
That's patently false.
Stastically, the Argentines are the best educated people in South America.
Thanks,
JacksonBut that's not saying much.
And the quality and quantity has been in decline, along with other aspects of Argentinean standards of living for many years. Whereas Chile, Brazil, Peru etc are increasingly catching up and in many cases surpassing the declining Argentine statistics. The long-term standard of living here is in decline. It pays to remember that the international agencies and the catholic church estimated 5% of Argentineans left the working poor in the last 12 months and descended into the poverty stricken class. The previously quoted near neighbours are ascending the ladder of affluence. It is almost impossible to provide good education with-out public money and with-out public resources.
For better or worse, there is not one South American university in the top 100 in the world, whereas Argentina claims a spot in the G20 nations. Obviously education is not a priority even though there is a good base to develope and improve the standard.
Argento
Tatshea Travel
12-06-08, 14:28
But that's not saying much.
And the quality and quantity has been in decline, along with other aspects of Argentinean standards of living for many years. Whereas Chile, Brazil, Peru etc are increasingly catching up and in many cases surpassing the declining Argentine statistics. The long-term standard of living here is in decline. It pays to remember that the international agencies and the catholic church estimated 5% of Argentineans left the working poor in the last 12 months and descended into the poverty stricken class. The previously quoted near neighbours are ascending the ladder of affluence. It is almost impossible to provide good education with-out public money and with-out public resources.
For better or worse, there is not one South American university in the top 100 in the world, whereas Argentina claims a spot in the G20 nations. Obviously education is not a priority even though there is a good base to develope and improve the standard.
ArgentoAs always, is impossible not to agree with you. My regards.
Tatshea Travel
12-06-08, 14:33
Tatshea, my Cuban friend, I am looking forward to visiting your country soon. The women are hot, and as I have discovered they are completely slutty. Now why don't you do us all a favor and post some useful information that mongers in Argentina would be interested in? We all gave up on Geo Eye a long time ago, but there is hope for you, I think.O. K. Hunt99. I'm not much of nigh-time fellow, but tonight I planned a small trip to Recoleta so I compromise to post the results. On the other hand, all this I'm writting about argies is below a thread that is called "Racism in Argentina", no? So what else is supposed to be written here if not about the bad behave of argies? Don't lose hope on me. Ja, Ja! I like that comment, but on the other side don't fell too hard on Geo Eye, he's the boss. My regards.
All I can say to all you people engaging in Argentinian bashing is that none of you have had the utter pleasure to know the Argentinians that I know! I'm sure if you had you wouldn't be bashing Argentinians. Every country has people worthy of bashing and the US is no different. I think that generalizing is generally a very unfair practice because there are louses in every country and Argentina and the USA are no exceptions to the rule. I'm from the USA so I'm not saying this because I'm from some other country.
As for how the Argentinians do business, it may be true that Argentinian businessmen are cut-throat and are always trying to find ways of beating the system but that is only natural when you are trying to make money in a country with a system that is so terribly stacked against you at every turn due to a government that imposes usurious taxes on your profits that leave you with a miniscule fraction of your profits, to use one example. And how many US businessmen try to deduct expenses that they have no business deducting to circumvent our tax system? So in some respects we're no different than our Argentinian counterparts.
As hosts and hostesses I've not seen anything but Argentinians rolling out the red carpet for me, giving me the keys to their apartments and houses to come and go as I please and generally making me feel completely at home in their country!
Nobody will ever convince me that Argentinians aren't some of the most friendly, warm, lovable people on earth no matter how they bash Argentinians in this forum.
DownBA
All I can say to all you people engaging in Argentinian bashing is that none of you have had the utter pleasure to know the Argentinians that I know! I'm sure if you had you wouldn't be bashing Argentinians. Every country has people worthy of bashing and the US is no different. I think that generalizing is generally a very unfair practice because there are louses in every country and Argentina and the USA are no exceptions to the rule. I'm from the USA so I'm not saying this because I'm from some other country.
As for how the Argentinians do business, it may be true that Argentinian businessmen are cut-throat and are always trying to find ways of beating the system but that is only natural when you are trying to make money in a country with a system that is so terribly stacked against you at every turn due to a government that imposes usurious taxes on your profits that leave you with a miniscule fraction of your profits, to use one example. And how many US businessmen try to deduct expenses that they have no business deducting to circumvent our tax system? So in some respects we're no different than our Argentinian counterparts.
As hosts and hostesses I've not seen anything but Argentinians rolling out the red carpet for me, giving me the keys to their apartments and houses to come and go as I please and generally making me feel completely at home in their country!
Nobody will ever convince me that Argentinians aren't some of the most friendly, warm, lovable people on earth no matter how they bash Argentinians in this forum.
DownBAWell, Mary Poppins. What can I say? Your experiences are totally different from mine and all the other members who have posted pretty much along the same lines as me. But we are not liars. Maybe it is because we are in business. If so our experiences are similiar to most of the major USA companies who abandoned their normal modus operandi and either got out all together or segregated their operations in such a manner that the day to day operations are completely independent of their actual company. Bell South, most of the major miners and oil companies, plenty of mid-range firms and of course lots of little fish like us that get fucked over daily. As my wife used to say, you get out of the deal when the fucking you're getting isn't worth the fucking you're getting.
Methinks you are not in business here and haven't had to face the reality of life on the street. Good luck to you and next time you are down here, ask the coloured home help in the house that you are a guest in, how 'the most friendly, warm, lovable people on earth' treat her. You may be surprised.
Argento
All I can say to all you people engaging in Argentinian bashing is that none of you have had the utter pleasure to know the Argentinians that I know! I'm sure if you had you wouldn't be bashing Argentinians. Every country has people worthy of bashing and the US is no different. I think that generalizing is generally a very unfair practice because there are louses in every country and Argentina and the USA are no exceptions to the rule. I'm from the USA so I'm not saying this because I'm from some other country.
As for how the Argentinians do business, it may be true that Argentinian businessmen are cut-throat and are always trying to find ways of beating the system but that is only natural when you are trying to make money in a country with a system that is so terribly stacked against you at every turn due to a government that imposes usurious taxes on your profits that leave you with a miniscule fraction of your profits, to use one example. And how many US businessmen try to deduct expenses that they have no business deducting to circumvent our tax system? So in some respects we're no different than our Argentinian counterparts.
As hosts and hostesses I've not seen anything but Argentinians rolling out the red carpet for me, giving me the keys to their apartments and houses to come and go as I please and generally making me feel completely at home in their country!
Nobody will ever convince me that Argentinians aren't some of the most friendly, warm, lovable people on earth no matter how they bash Argentinians in this forum.
DownBAArgentinine are good people in what ways.
If at least you would tell me take are great patriots, but they are not.
They are out for themselfs only. There is no love of country here, I see.
Argies screw their own people whenever they get a chance and it is only.
Because they are out for there own selfishness.
As for "friendly, warm, lovable people" are you kidding me?
I have never seen this unless I have Ben franklin on hand.
Not to continue beating a dead horse, about how I feel about argies,
But you have to admit even there own countrymen do not trust each other.
Thier truly is no patriotism or anything even close to it.
All I can say to all you people engaging in Argentinian bashing is that none of you have had the utter pleasure to know the Argentinians that I know! I'm sure if you had you wouldn't be bashing Argentinians. Every country has people worthy of bashing and the US is no different. I think that generalizing is generally a very unfair practice because there are louses in every country and Argentina and the USA are no exceptions to the rule. I'm from the USA so I'm not saying this because I'm from some other country.
As for how the Argentinians do business, it may be true that Argentinian businessmen are cut-throat and are always trying to find ways of beating the system but that is only natural when you are trying to make money in a country with a system that is so terribly stacked against you at every turn due to a government that imposes usurious taxes on your profits that leave you with a miniscule fraction of your profits, to use one example. And how many US businessmen try to deduct expenses that they have no business deducting to circumvent our tax system? So in some respects we're no different than our Argentinian counterparts.
As hosts and hostesses I've not seen anything but Argentinians rolling out the red carpet for me, giving me the keys to their apartments and houses to come and go as I please and generally making me feel completely at home in their country!
Nobody will ever convince me that Argentinians aren't some of the most friendly, warm, lovable people on earth no matter how they bash Argentinians in this forum.
DownBAI particularly like the last paragraph. I can guarantee you that your so called Argentinean friends are setting you up for a fall.
As long as the Argentineans can find people as naive as you, they will do just fine
Nicely articulated point of view.
All I can say to all you people engaging in Argentinian bashing is that none of you have had the utter pleasure to know the Argentinians that I know! I'm sure if you had you wouldn't be bashing Argentinians. Every country has people worthy of bashing and the US is no different. I think that generalizing is generally a very unfair practice because there are louses in every country and Argentina and the USA are no exceptions to the rule. I'm from the USA so I'm not saying this because I'm from some other country.
As for how the Argentinians do business, it may be true that Argentinian businessmen are cut-throat and are always trying to find ways of beating the system but that is only natural when you are trying to make money in a country with a system that is so terribly stacked against you at every turn due to a government that imposes usurious taxes on your profits that leave you with a miniscule fraction of your profits, to use one example. And how many US businessmen try to deduct expenses that they have no business deducting to circumvent our tax system? So in some respects we're no different than our Argentinian counterparts.
As hosts and hostesses I've not seen anything but Argentinians rolling out the red carpet for me, giving me the keys to their apartments and houses to come and go as I please and generally making me feel completely at home in their country!
Nobody will ever convince me that Argentinians aren't some of the most friendly, warm, lovable people on earth no matter how they bash Argentinians in this forum.
DownBARegards,
BM.
Tatshea Travel
12-07-08, 21:59
As for "friendly, warm, lovable people" are you kidding me?
I have never seen this unless I have Ben franklin on hand.That's it Geo Eye. Argies won't do anything for you unless they can get profit from some other way.
El Alamo,
I've been coming down to Argentina now for 10 years and have been doing business with Argentinian companies for 14 years and I haven't taken the fall you talk about yet but then I am very careful about how I do business down here.
As for the domestic help I referred to, they're treated practically like family by the family I'm friends with that employs them.
Maybe I'm just the kind of guy that always tries to see the glass as half full instead of half empty.
I'm sticking with my idea that you can generalize all you want but not everybody is a bad apple in Argentina or anywhere else for that matter.
Finally, since this thread is really about racisim in Argentina, I have to admit that I've heard racisim coming from a particular Argentinian gal that I know that moved to the states that thinks Latinos with darker skin such as Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, etc. Are lower on the humanity scale than Argentinians let alone what she thinks of Black Americans! So I do think there is a point there about racisim in Argentina. Chau guys, you can all take your pot shots at me, Mr. Naivete from the states who's getting set up for a big fall, and I can assure you that this post is my last response.
I have also lived here for quite a few years - probably more than most members - and I have being doing business one way or another since the 70's - I agree that it is really difficult with the complicated tax laws and the idiotic labour laws but I never got fucked by an Argentine individual (yes, by the government more than once)
Keeping track of my business in the last 15 years I got fucked four times by clients and each time it was by an American. (I have bounced checks that I can show anyone that wants to see them) considering that almost 90% of my clients are Americans this is extremely low. I wouldn't dream of tagging Americans as corrupt but I'm only stating my personal experience!
As I said 90% of my clients are American but 100% of my staff or service providers are Latins (mostly Argentine) and except for the idiotic labour laws I haven't had any major problems I have many (very good) Argentine friends that go back 30 or more years and I know I can count on them if ever I need.
I have been robbed twice by chicas. One was an Uruguayan and the other a Cuban!
I have often come across dishonest Argentines especially in public offices but as I am careful to keep my business clean I have (and finally benefited from doing so) told them to fuck off - But you have to be 100% sure you know where you stand legally before doing this!
I can give hundreds or even thousands of examples of honesty amongst Argentine employees. But just to give one quick example that another member of this board can certify, a client of mine left almost US$5000 at the bar of a hotel before checking out and a week later the money was returned to him. And I'm only mentioning this case as someone on this board can certify to it being true and you don't have to just take my word for it.
And when you do come across corrupt officials if you fight for your rights almost every time you will win. Another client (and elderly couple) had a fishing rod "confiscated" by a security employee at the airport when they were leaving. They let me know and I went to see the security chief at the airport. We checked the videos for the date and time my clients were going through security and identified the employee. With the tape we went to the corresponding judge and he ordered a search warrant for the employee's home. The rod was found there together with many other goods the guy couldn't account for. Today he's in jail and my client has his rod!
I'm no Mary Poppins and I do business dayly in Argentina. I often get pissed off when things don't work as they should and I VERY often get pissed off with the stupidity I come across every day from local officials, labour laws etc but Argentina is still a place you can enjoy life in a way not many places allow.
But of all the post I have read here, the first prize goes to Geo Eye who, while absolutely buchering the English language, calls Argentines ignorants who never read a book! That is one classical post if there ever was one!
El Alamo,
I've been coming down to Argentina now for 10 years and have been doing business with Argentinian companies for 14 years and I haven't taken the fall you talk about yet but then I am very careful about how I do business down here.
As for the domestic help I referred to, they're treated practically like family by the family I'm friends with that employs them.
Maybe I'm just the kind of guy that always tries to see the glass as half full instead of half empty.
I'm sticking with my idea that you can generalize all you want but not everybody is a bad apple in Argentina or anywhere else for that matter.
Finally, since this thread is really about racisim in Argentina, I have to admit that I've heard racisim coming from a particular Argentinian gal that I know that moved to the states that thinks Latinos with darker skin such as Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, etc. Are lower on the humanity scale than Argentinians let alone what she thinks of Black Americans! So I do think there is a point there about racisim in Argentina. Chau guys, you can all take your pot shots at me, Mr. Naivete from the states who's getting set up for a big fall, and I can assure you that this post is my last response.Since you obviously have a strategy that works down here and are a North American, (Aqualung is not a candidate because to all intensive purposes, he is Argentinean by dint of not having worked anywhere else) I wonder if I can induce you into one more post on the current debate.
Could you tell me your secrets to achieve a warm, profitable and friendly relationship with Argentineans. That way I, the Club of Paris, the IMF, Bell South, Exxon, El Alamo and countless other companies and individuals would know where we went wrong in making a decision to invest in this country based apon normal western business practises. And also if you do post a reply, whether or not your business requires you to be responsible for the physical delivery of products and goods, together with the passing through that Chamber of Iniquity, the Argentine Customs house. And a further also, whether or not your business has capital invested here. Supplying goods on the security of irrevocable Letters of Credit offers you no exposure to the risks, (and really is not what I call being in resident business) that the afore mentioned group and NGO's must by definition undergo. I only have a tale of tears and grief, street robberies and fraud, combined with complete indifference to the fulfilment of contracted supply of goods and services. Almost, "What, you really expect us to give you what we contracted to supply?" And the local bureaocracy has been criticised by Argentinean and non-Argentinean posters alike. And yet you have sailed through without even a ruffled feather. O mighty one, tell us your secret.
Argento
Aqualung is not a candidate.
ArgentoThat kind of puts a lid on any of my post here!
That kind of puts a lid on any of my post here!:(No Aqualung. By your own admission to me personally, in your other career, you feasted at the trough. So your post has validity in so much as it relates to your own experience, provided the readers are made aware that the only way you could survive financially in that job was to become part of the system, that in our way of life, would have you convicted and gaoled. Which is precisely the point of this particular discussion. Might well you laud the locals as fine specimens of humanity, but from my experience in international business, the principles and ethics here are the worst ever. And I cut my international teeth in Indonesia during the first years of Soeharto, and I thought that was tough. But compared to here, it was a cakewalk.
Argento
No Aqualung. By your own admission to me personally, in your other career, you feasted at the trough. So your post has validity in so much as it relates to your own experience, provided the readers are made aware that the only way you could survive financially in that job was to become part of the system, that in our way of life, would have you convicted and gaoled. Which is precisely the point of this particular discussion. Might well you laud the locals as fine specimens of humanity, but from my experience in international business, the principles and ethics here are the worst ever. And I cut my international teeth in Indonesia during the first years of Soeharto, and I thought that was tough. But compared to here, it was a cakewalk.
ArgentoTrue, Argento, but I have worked mostly for American companies that do business here (as their local representative) and these companies have made and still are making good enough profits to keep on doing business after twelve or fifteen years and they have not had the bad experiences you have.
It does have a lot to do with the kind of business you are in which exposes you more or less to government corruption or to the fucked up system.
My point is that DownBA's experience in doing business here sounds similar to any of the companies I have worked with. They have been here for years, they have made money and they probably will keep on doing so for many more years to come.
And I can add, my wife, kids, grandkids are Argentine and they are as good people as any from any part of the World.
I find a lot of what I would call "classic racism" here, that is racism related to the color of your skin. As in other places skin color and class are closely related here, and if you say "villero" you almost certainly also mean "nativo". That is deplorable, that goes without saying.
As for Argentinians by and large I have never encountered any "racism" against people from Europe or the U. K.
A lot of Argentinians (and Latin American people in general) severely dislike the United States (and, sadly, by extension Americans) But the dislike is more linked to foreign policy in the past, jingoism and neo-colonialism than it is to race.
As to honesty, I would not put too much money on getting a lost wallet back in Buenos Aires. But if you have 50 ARS to last you the month, and you find 200 ARS in a wallet belonging to some fat cat tourist, I guess I can understand your reasons for taking the money.
I think there is a clear distinction between people who are outside your circle of friends and people who are inside that circle.
The argentine friends I have have never given me any reason what so ever to doubt about their honesty towards me, and in particular one of them have shown me great trust in my dealings with him, and I have returned the favor and never been disappointed.
A lot of Argentinians (and Latin American people in general) severely dislike the United States (and, sadly, by extension Americans) But the dislike is more linked to foreign policy in the past, jingoism and neo-colonialism than it is to race.Mr Vice,
With all due respect, that's complete bullshit.
Obviously, you've been hanging out with too many leftist college professors and their "skulls full of mush" students, and reading too many leftist media publications.
Try hanging out with some Argentine businessmen for a different perspective. You know, the kind of people who are actually involved in the creation of the wealth that the aforementioned groups leach off of for their sustenance.
Thanks,
Jackson
Gato Hunter
02-25-09, 18:04
A lot of Argentinians (and Latin American people in general) severely dislike the United States (and, sadly, by extension Americans) But the dislike is more linked to foreign policy in the past, jingoism and neo-colonialism than it is to race.I would say that is a rather educated well written statement that rings true throughout the world in many places I have traveled.
Besides Argentine businessmen are not world renowned for there wealth creation skills last time I checked.
I would say that is a rather educated well written statement that rings true throughout the world in many places I have traveled.
Besides Argentine businessmen are not world renowned for there wealth creation skills last time I checked.I didn't say that Argentine business men possessed great-wealth creation skills.
What I suggested was that people who wish to fantasize that Americans are hated throughout the world should instead talk to people who are actually in business and gain their prospective about America and Americans, instead of only listening to leftist college professors, leftists students, and the leftist media.
Let me say this more directly: Americans are respected and admired throughout the world for our creativity, our ingenuity and our business acumen.
Personally, I don't give a fuck what leftist college professors, leftists students, and the leftist media says or thinks about Americans. These groups are the leaches whose survival is totally dependent upon the wealth creation of the businessmen whom they despise.
Thanks,
Jackson
I didn't say that Argentine business men possessed great-wealth creation skills.
What I suggested was that people who wish to fantasize that Americans are hated throughout the world should instead talk to people who are actually in business and gain their prospective about America and Americans, instead of only listening to leftist college professors, leftists students, and the leftist media.
Let me say this more directly: Americans are respected and admired throughout the world for our creativity, our ingenuity and our business acumen.
Personally, I don't give a fuck what leftist college professors, leftists students, and the leftist media says or thinks about Americans. These groups are the leaches whose survival is totally dependent upon the wealth creation of the businessmen whom they despise.
Thanks,
JacksonI work with middle to upper-middle class Argentines who almost unvariably have distrust and in most cases disdain for the US government and its economic policies. Most also blame the US for the economic problems of 2001.
These 'left-leaning' folks are not philosophy students from UBA. All are graduates in business and related fields from Universidad Catolica and Universidad Austral.
Jackson, if you think that anti-American sentiments are only prevalent in left-leaning South Americans, I'd suggest you expand the group of people you talk to. Or, God forbid, maybe even learn Spanish.
IOr, God forbid, maybe even learn Spanish.Sir, you are misinformed, and given that there is only one source of that specific piece of dis-information, I now know whose company you keep.
And please don't confuse hatred with envy. The world does not hate Americans, they envy them, although these two emotions often manifest themselves in similar ways.
Thanks,
Jackson
PS: Remember "Gringo go home, and take me with you."?
I didn't say that Argentine business men possessed great-wealth creation skills.
What I suggested was that people who wish to fantasize that Americans are hated throughout the world should instead talk to people who are actually in business and gain their prospective about America and Americans, instead of only listening to leftist college professors, leftists students, and the leftist media.
Let me say this more directly: Americans are respected and admired throughout the world for our creativity, our ingenuity and our business acumen.
Personally, I don't give a fuck what leftist college professors, leftists students, and the leftist media says or thinks about Americans. These groups are the leaches whose survival is totally dependent upon the wealth creation of the businessmen whom they despise.
Thanks,
JacksonNot my experience here. I circulate amongst quite a few Argentine businessmen who have substantial resources and businesses turning over the tens of millions. I hesitate to call them friends because every time they have an opportunity to take advantage of me, they avail themselves of that opportunity. Most despise Americans and America simply because they don't understand how it works. They think it is a smoke and mirror trick. Ie; they think it is the same as Argentina but they can't see how it is done. They are successful only in Argentina because they bribe, steal, under-deliver, overcharge etc. You name every unprincipled act in business and that is how they have amassed their wealth. And they presume the USA is the same. Problem is they can't branch out to other places, even in Latin America, because their business model can't travel and their close neighbours trust them about as far as they can kick them. Their neighbours despise Argentinians more than Argentinians despise Americans. So Jax, my experience is that Argentina is an exception to your rules of respect.
Argento
Sir, you are misinformed, and given that there is only one source of that specific piece of dis-information, I now know whose company you keep.Ha ha, I know who you mean. But I only read that on a thread a long time ago. Actually, I am happy to hear that I am misinformed.
But I never used the term *hate.* Many of my coworkers have lived in the US and see it as useful and an opportunity. It's kind of hard to describe, but it's almost like they are envious.
PS: What happened to the 'dis-informer?'
Stan Da Man
02-25-09, 22:13
That's definitely my experience -- that they admire and enjoy Americans, and there's also some envy as well. I've done business there for a few years. My caveat is that the Argentine companies with which I deal all have substantial ties to the U. S. So it would hardly do them any good to outwardly despise those with whom they are dealing.
Perhaps they all harbor some secret hatred of America and Americans, but I doubt it. Usually, those sorts of emotions manifest themselves somewhere -- in actions if not words. I don't claim to have the extensive Argentina dealings that some here have had, but I've been there once a quarter on business for the past two years and definitely do not think most Argie businessmen hate Americans.
The distinction I would draw is between hatred of Americans and hatred of the American government. I have heard many people, in Argentina and other Latin American countries, express distrust and dislike for the American government. Heck, I express distrust and dislike for the American government quite frequently. But, that's completely different than a dislike by Argie businessmen of American people, or a general dislike by the Argie people of American people.
If you gave every Argie the opportunity to go to the U. S. But told them they couldn't take any of their assets (however meager) with them, how many do you think would take you up on it? A substantial percentage, I guarantee it, and this is regardless of whether they hate the U. S. Government or not.
I've found that many Argentinos really dislike (despise? US foreign policy under the Bush administration. They are very against what we are doing in the Middle East and see us as a bully. I have little doubt that they would be acting similarly here if they had the power over their neighbors, but that is something they don't like to see us doing for sure.
They are envious of estadounidenses to an extent. Some have been there and know a bit more than others who only see it from movies and local news that has its own outlook. Many of the comments here related to the envy are true, but not to an excess. The truth is, they see us as something to be marveled at or as a source of envy until they get to know us and realize that we aren't all that for the most part. Of course, in many Portenos views, I think some of them find us to be a bit on the crude / common side. Particularly the older ones.
I have misunderstood the envy and sometimes a deep-seated inferiority complex as Argentinos feeling superior and aloof. Some people are VERY MUCH that way here, but my next door neighbor, who I took for a snob and a racist, actually turns out to (possibly) be an ok person. Turns out that she was embarrassed to meet me and didn't know what to make of her new neighbors. She treats my wife very nicely now and we haven't heard any more anti-Paraguayan remarks come back to us through the maid.
Don't get me wrong - I still think there are some anti-American (and anti-Paraguayan) people in the neigborhood, although nothing has been overt, unless you count the couple of eggs that we've had thrown at the house - but that could just be kids being kids.
But do Argentinos hate Americans? No, I don't think so.
That's definitely my experience -- that they admire and enjoy Americans, and there's also some envy as well. I've done business there for a few years. My caveat is that the Argentine companies with which I deal all have substantial ties to the U. S. So it would hardly do them any good to outwardly despise those with whom they are dealing.
Perhaps they all harbor some secret hatred of America and Americans, but I doubt it. Usually, those sorts of emotions manifest themselves somewhere -- in actions if not words. I don't claim to have the extensive Argentina dealings that some here have had, but I've been there once a quarter on business for the past two years and definitely do not think most Argie businessmen hate Americans.
The distinction I would draw is between hatred of Americans and hatred of the American government. I have heard many people, in Argentina and other Latin American countries, express distrust and dislike for the American government. Heck, I express distrust and dislike for the American government quite frequently. But, that's completely different than a dislike by Argie businessmen of American people, or a general dislike by the Argie people of American people.
If you gave every Argie the opportunity to go to the U. S. But told them they couldn't take any of their assets (however meager) with them, how many do you think would take you up on it? A substantial percentage, I guarantee it, and this is regardless of whether they hate the U. S. Government or not.We are obviously talking about different animals. The one I'm referring to is his own man with his own business. I sort of feel that you are calling employees at some management level as businessmen. And also that the companies are American multinationals. For me one is a businessman and one is an employee.
Argento
I have misunderstood the envy and sometimes a deep-seated inferiority complex as Argentinos feeling superior and aloof. Some people are VERY MUCH that way here, but my next door neighbor, who I took for a snob and a racist, actually turns out to (possibly) be an ok person. Turns out that she was embarrassed to meet me and didn't know what to make of her new neighbors. She treats my wife very nicely now and we haven't heard any more anti-Paraguayan remarks come back to us through the maid.
Don't get me wrong - I still think there are some anti-American (and anti-Paraguayan) people in the neigborhood, although nothing has been overt, unless you count the couple of eggs that we've had thrown at the house - but that could just be kids being kids.
But do Argentinos hate Americans? No, I don't think so.And Wallace turned from a white supremist into a negro lover overnight!
Argento
Argentinos perception on Americans it's probably most influenced by the movies Hollywood produces. We all know the Hollywood movies do not reflect 100% the reality, for instance, people who smoke is not always MOB or killers, but in Hollywood that's the way it is.
In regards of the "envy" it might be also influenced by the movies, since in the US there is available CREDIT which is not present in risky countries such as Argentina. So a family can "buy" a house which looks nice but there is lack of knowledge the house is made on durlok. What they know it's about Homero Simpson and Family, which is similar to the Flingstons cartoons. A middle-lower class family who has access to things only the upper class have access in undeveloped countries. However, a middle class Argentino can easily access to several things that only upper class American can: University, Bulo, Lover, gym, restaurants, clubbing, valet laundry, etc.
From my point of view I don't consider there is "hate" against Americans in Argentina, in general Americans behave very well and in good manners, however, Argentinos have different perceptions on several philosophic views of the life, so they bond more towards Italians, Frenchs and Spaniards. In addition I would not consider the word "envy" or "hate" as appropriated because in the society lower levels there is no competition for jobs, like may happen in lower classes of USA towards Mexicans, or in Argentina towards Bolivians and Paraguayans in the construction industry. In cases like big corporations with overseas branches, such as MS, IBM, etc you'll find the Director is an American, so may be the "envy" surrounds by these offices, but that will happens anyway if the CEO is Argentino as well.
A construction worker from the US would not consider immigrating to AR, but probably an AR worker may do it if the compensation for his job is better in the US, however, due the immigration controls the compensation should be very attractive, or the person must be in a real trouble. In 2002 many immigrated to Spain and even Portugal.
Regarding international affairs of the US, AR people really doesn't cares about it, unless you are the president or the ambassador (which by the way used to be a Cuban, I don't know if the US ambassador stills in AR) EU have more hate in AR regarding intl affairs, for instance they own the power and light company, most of the telecommunications companies, the highways the water co, etc.
Another thing when traveling overseas it's about bonding with the right people. Perception you may get among the taxi drivers and waiters about Americans or whatever other nationality will be mostly based on the Hollywood movies, and TV series. Hollywood has been the best ambassador the US hired ever.
From my point of view the AR society in general is very open and very tolerant, the only thing that may irritate the Argies it's bad manners or problems in communications and strange behaviors, for instance Koreans / Chinese who own small grocery stores were recently instructed to say "gracias" (thank you) when you leave. Buyers were disappointed without the "gracias" but they worked it out, and suddenly all the cashiers says "gracias".
Argentinos perception on Americans it's probably most influenced by the movies Hollywood produces. We all know the Hollywood movies do not reflect 100% the reality, for instance, people who smoke is not always MOB or killers, but in Hollywood that's the way it is.
In regards of the "envy" it might be also influenced by the movies, since in the US there is available CREDIT which is not present in risky countries such as Argentina. So a family can "buy" a house which looks nice but there is lack of knowledge the house is made on durlok. What they know it's about Homero Simpson and Family, which is similar to the Flingstons cartoons. A middle-lower class family who has access to things only the upper class have access in undeveloped countries. However, a middle class Argentino can easily access to several things that only upper class American can: University, Bulo, Lover, gym, restaurants, clubbing, valet laundry, etc.
From my point of view I don't consider there is "hate" against Americans in Argentina, in general Americans behave very well and in good manners, however, Argentinos have different perceptions on several philosophic views of the life, so they bond more towards Italians, Frenchs and Spaniards. In addition I would not consider the word "envy" or "hate" as appropriated because in the society lower levels there is no competition for jobs, like may happen in lower classes of USA towards Mexicans, or in Argentina towards Bolivians and Paraguayans in the construction industry. In cases like big corporations with overseas branches, such as MS, IBM, etc you'll find the Director is an American, so may be the "envy" surrounds by these offices, but that will happens anyway if the CEO is Argentino as well.
A construction worker from the US would not consider immigrating to AR, but probably an AR worker may do it if the compensation for his job is better in the US, however, due the immigration controls the compensation should be very attractive, or the person must be in a real trouble. In 2002 many immigrated to Spain and even Portugal.
Regarding international affairs of the US, AR people really doesn't cares about it, unless you are the president or the ambassador (which by the way used to be a Cuban, I don't know if the US ambassador stills in AR) EU have more hate in AR regarding intl affairs, for instance they own the power and light company, most of the telecommunications companies, the highways the water co, etc.
Another thing when traveling overseas it's about bonding with the right people. Perception you may get among the taxi drivers and waiters about Americans or whatever other nationality will be mostly based on the Hollywood movies, and TV series. Hollywood has been the best ambassador the US hired ever.
From my point of view the AR society in general is very open and very tolerant, the only thing that may irritate the Argies it's bad manners or problems in communications and strange behaviors, for instance Koreans / Chinese who own small grocery stores were recently instructed to say "gracias" (thank you) when you leave. Buyers were disappointed without the "gracias" but they worked it out, and suddenly all the cashiers says "gracias".MCSE, you rambled around a little but for for those who understand the meaning behind what you are trying to say you are correct.;)
Argentinos perception on Americans it's probably most influenced by the movies Hollywood produces. We all know the Hollywood movies do not reflect 100% the reality, for instance, people who smoke is not always MOB or killers, but in Hollywood that's the way it is.
In regards of the "envy" it might be also influenced by the movies, since in the US there is available CREDIT which is not present in risky countries such as Argentina. So a family can "buy" a house which looks nice but there is lack of knowledge the house is made on durlok. What they know it's about Homero Simpson and Family, which is similar to the Flingstons cartoons. A middle-lower class family who has access to things only the upper class have access in undeveloped countries. However, a middle class Argentino can easily access to several things that only upper class American can: University, Bulo, Lover, gym, restaurants, clubbing, valet laundry, etc.
From my point of view I don't consider there is "hate" against Americans in Argentina, in general Americans behave very well and in good manners, however, Argentinos have different perceptions on several philosophic views of the life, so they bond more towards Italians, Frenchs and Spaniards. In addition I would not consider the word "envy" or "hate" as appropriated because in the society lower levels there is no competition for jobs, like may happen in lower classes of USA towards Mexicans, or in Argentina towards Bolivians and Paraguayans in the construction industry. In cases like big corporations with overseas branches, such as MS, IBM, etc you'll find the Director is an American, so may be the "envy" surrounds by these offices, but that will happens anyway if the CEO is Argentino as well.
A construction worker from the US would not consider immigrating to AR, but probably an AR worker may do it if the compensation for his job is better in the US, however, due the immigration controls the compensation should be very attractive, or the person must be in a real trouble. In 2002 many immigrated to Spain and even Portugal.
Regarding international affairs of the US, AR people really doesn't cares about it, unless you are the president or the ambassador (which by the way used to be a Cuban, I don't know if the US ambassador stills in AR) EU have more hate in AR regarding intl affairs, for instance they own the power and light company, most of the telecommunications companies, the highways the water co, etc.
Another thing when traveling overseas it's about bonding with the right people. Perception you may get among the taxi drivers and waiters about Americans or whatever other nationality will be mostly based on the Hollywood movies, and TV series. Hollywood has been the best ambassador the US hired ever.
From my point of view the AR society in general is very open and very tolerant, the only thing that may irritate the Argies it's bad manners or problems in communications and strange behaviors, for instance Koreans / Chinese who own small grocery stores were recently instructed to say "gracias" (thank you) when you leave. Buyers were disappointed without the "gracias" but they worked it out, and suddenly all the cashiers says "gracias".Your opinion, backed up by Aqualung, implies that middle-class Americans have relatively restricted access to the supposed trappings of middle-class life in Argentina. Simply not true. Aqualung I know, has not lived in the USA and you, MCSE, have a peculiarly subjective approach to reaching an opinion on how countries are, something you have confided to me. I don't know if you have lived in the States, but if you have, your subjective opinion is simply not true and demonstrately so.
On another tack. MCSE, Aqualung and El Queso have in the past day expended a great deal of effort in collective fellatio. This is on the point of Argentine good manners and how offended Argentinians are when what passes for good manners amongst them, is not reciprocated by other nationalities. What bullshit. If superficial kissy, kissy on meeting constitutes good manners, then all society is doomed. How about some reality. Ever tried to cross a road at a dedicated crossing? Try is what you will do because they will run you down. Driving on the roads in the Capital is an object lesson in lack of courtesy, selfishness and rudeness. Walking along a sidewalk they will atempt to force you off the sidewalk and into traffic. How about punctuality? The height of rudeness when I was growing up, was to be late for a set time. Here lateness is de rigeur. And no apology either. Return a telephone call. Only if it is to their immediate advantage. The absolute rudeness El Queso and family was subject to when he moved into his new neighbourhood, is now explained as simply shyness. He should re-read his post. His Argentine neighbor lied, slandered and spread bad rumours. For someone new in a neighborhood, not exactly what I would call polite.
And as for it being an open and tolerant society, forget it. The poor Chinese will be in danger of becoming what they are in Indonesia; the true backbone of the small-business economy and then being purged by riots and progroms when ever the natives are pissed off. Remember last year when the Argentine unions attempted to put an embargo on Chinese supermarkets for some imagined slight. If the Argentinians had this so-called tolerance, they would realize that different cultures have different habits. At least the Chinese have been intelligent enough to change their standards to conform to the superficiality of their customers. No need for the Argentinians to change, they have no international customers except by way of commodity exports. And the end clients are handled by the great trading consortiums such as Cargills. So they will never learn.
Argento
QuakHunter
02-27-09, 12:55
Your opinion, backed up by Aqualung, implies that middle-class Americans have relatively restricted access to the supposed trappings of middle-class life in Argentina. Simply not true. Aqualung I know, has not lived in the USA and you, MCSE, have a peculiarly subjective approach to reaching an opinion on how countries are, something you have confided to me. I don't know if you have lived in the States, but if you have, your subjective opinion is simply not true and demonstrately so.
On another tack. MCSE, Aqualung and El Queso have in the past day expended a great deal of effort in collective fellatio. This is on the point of Argentine good manners and how offended Argentinians are when what passes for good manners amongst them is not reciprocated by other nationalities. What bullshit. If superficial kiss, kiss on meeting constitutes good manners, then all society is doomed. How about some reality. Ever tried to cross a road at a dedicated crossing. Try is what you will do because they will run you down. Driving on the roads in the Capital is an object lesson in lack of courtesy, selfishness and rudeness. Walking along a sidewalk they will atempt to force you off the sidewalk and into traffic. How about punctuality? The height of rudeness when I was growing up was to be late for a set time. Here lateness is de rigeur. And no apology either. Return a telephone call. Only if it is to their immediate advantage. The absolute rudeness El Queso and family was subject to when he moved into his new neighbourhood, is now explained as simply shyness. He should re-read his post. His Argentine neighbor lied, slandered and spread bad rumours. For someone new in a neighborhood, not exactly what I would call polite.
And as for it being an open and tolerant, forget it. The poor Chinese will be in danger of becoming what they are in Indonesia; the backbone of the small-business economy and purged by riots and progroms when ever the natives are pissed off. Remember last year when the Argentine unions attempted to put an embargo on Chinese supermarkets for some imagined slight. If the Argentinians had this so-called tolerance, they would realize that different cultures have different habits. At least the Chinese have been intelligent enough to change their standard to conform to the superficiality of their customers. No need for the Argentinians to change, they have no international customers except by way of commodity exports. And the end clients are handled by the great trading consortiums such as Cargills. So they will never learn.
ArgentoVery insightful and fact based. My only experience with rudeness in Argentina is from a girl I met. She won't have sex with me unless I pay her. That is the epitome of rudeness.
But, I experience that in Canada, Ireland, Guatemala, Panama, DR, Cuba, Pakistan, Kuwait, Scotland, Luxembourg, Ukraine, Russia and Afghanistan. They are very rude too.
In Uzbekistan one girl didn't charge me. Very polite, but hairy.
Very insightful and fact based. My only experience with rudeness in Argentina is from a girl I met. She won't have sex with me unless I pay her. That is the epitome of rudeness.
But, I experience that in Canada, Ireland, Guatemala, Panama, DR, Cuba, Pakistan, Kuwait, Scotland, Luxembourg, Ukraine, Russia and Afghanistan. They are very rude too.
In Uzbekistan one girl didn't charge me. Very polite, but hairy.Touche!
Argento
QuakHunter
02-27-09, 15:15
Touche!
ArgentoOnly meant in good humour, my friend.
There are shreds of truth in both sides of this issue. I experience the exact same observations, feelings and arguments put forth in this thread in every country I travel. Canadians, Englishmen, Ukrainians, Central Americans, etc. All complain about this blue headed monster called the United States and are green with envy over our freedom, way of life and material wealth.
But, they mostly like us as individuals and absolutely, unequivocally love that green thing in our pockets. (No, not that Green Thing)
Argento's comments, "This is on the point of Argentine good manners and how offended Argentinians are when what passes for good manners amongst them is not reciprocated by other nationalities. What bullshit. If superficial kiss, kiss on meeting constitutes good manners, then all society is doomed. How about punctuality?
The height of rudeness when I was growing up was to be late for a set time. Here lateness is de rigeur. And no apology either. Return a telephone call. Only if it is to their immediate advantage." Resonates with me because it is representative of every business and personal contact I have made in Argentina. (As well as one unbelievably smokin' hot Chica)
But, that is where the criticism ends. My chosen group of friends and business contacts are the people I find the most pleasure to deal with in the necessary evil of local representation. They are also the people I choose to associate with outside of work and my Chica is the one I choose to dedicate all of my efforts to see, fornicate with and help with money to make things easier for her (The ROI is pretty good) She then takes the money for her son and herself, goes to la playa for a weekend (missing work) and then she cries about how hard she is working and that the money is always running out. (Same chick I wrote about before) Seems to be a pattern down there.
I understand the game with my business contacts and I know she is probably getting more finacial support from men in and outside of Argentina that the unions collectively get from CFK. But I know this and continue to make the choice to continue.
That being said, I choose to look at the positives about their behavior, culture and way of life than the collective dick constantly trying to be inserted up my own exit hole by the amateurs who take their one time hit.
In summary; I know it's a game and I always stay a little bit ahead each time. It's a marathon, not a sprint.
And I like it.
Suerte
QuakHunter
02-27-09, 17:16
After reading the twelve previous pages in the thread on this subject of Argentine Racism and their views towards the USA and Americans, I have commissioned Quakhunter Amalgamated Industries, S. A. Crack research department to provide objective data for the purpose of objectivity.
Here are the findings after years of effort and tens of thousands of dollars (As well as stealing it directly from the 2007 Pew Global Attitudes Survey)
The survey interviewed 45,239 people in 47 nations, including 800 face-to-face interviews with Argentines. The survey was carried out in both rural and urban areas in April of 2007.
It found:
"Global distrust of American leadership is reflected in increasing disapproval of the cornerstones of U. S. Foreign policy. Not only is there worldwide support for a withdrawal of U. S. Troops from Iraq, but there also is considerable opposition to U. S. And NATO operations in Afghanistan. Western European publics are at best divided about keeping troops there. In nearly every predominantly Muslim country, overwhelming majorities want U. S. And NATO troops withdrawn from Afghanistan as soon as possible. In addition, global support for the U. S.-led war on terrorism ebbs ever lower. And the United States is the nation blamed most often for hurting the world's environment, at a time of rising global concern about environmental issues."
Interestingly, however, the survey indicated that distrust runs high for almost all major powers, not just the U. S.
"There is little evidence that discontent with the major nations of the world and their leaders is resulting in greater confidence in those who have challenged the global status quo. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez inspires little public confidence, even in Latin America, and huge majorities in most countries also say they have little or no confidence in Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to do the right thing regarding world affairs."
Meanwhile, people in almost all countries are growing increasingly concerned about pollution and environmental degradation. Such concern has grown rapidly in Argentina. In 2002 about 28% of Argentines said environmental problems posed the "top threat" to the world. By 2007 that figure had risen 25 points to 53% , a faster increase than in any other country except Brazil, where it rose 29 points. To the extent that the U. S. Is widely seen as the world's leading polluter, this partly explains why Argentines don't like U. S. Policies, particularly President Bush's environmental policies.
The survey indicates that while Argentines are vociferously anti-American in many categories, their opposition to the U. S. Is surpassed by discontent in Turkey, Pakistan and France in at least some key categories. Around 67% of Argentines said they "most disliked American ideas about democracy" while 81% of Turks, 76% of French and 72% of Pakistanis also said this. Another 67% of Argentines said they "most disliked American ways of doing business" while 83% of Turks and 75% of French agreed.
The U. S. Has lost a lot of support in Latin America, not just in Argentina:
"The image of the United States has eroded since 2002 in all six Latin American countries for which trends are available. The decline has been especially steep in Venezuela (26 points) Argentina (18 points) and Bolivia (15 points) Nonetheless, majorities in four of the seven Latin American nations included in the survey – including Venezuela (56%) – have a positive opinion of the U. S. Both Brazilians (44% favorable, 51% unfavorable) and Bolivians (42% favorable, 52% unfavorable) are somewhat more likely to have a negative opinion of the U. S. Than a positive one. Five years ago, majorities in both nations felt favorably toward the U. S. Meanwhile, negative views of the U. S. In Argentina, which were clearly evident five years ago, have only intensified. Indeed, the balance of opinion toward the U. S. Among Argentines (16% favorable, 72% unfavorable) is worse than in any country surveyed outside the Middle East."
America versus Americans.
Do Argentines distinguish between the U. S. Government and American people? The answer is yes, but even here the results are not too encouraging. When asked to "rate the U. S. And its people," only 16% of Argentines said they had a favorable view of the U. S. Government. Only slightly more than that, 26% , said they favorably viewed the America people. Ouch! Those percentages are lower than in all countries except Turkey, Pakistan and the Palestinian territories.
Argentine Views on American Exports.
In one fascinating aspect of the survey, Argentines revealed themselves to be only moderately positive about American cultural and scientific exports. About 50% said they had positive views of U. S. movies, music and TV shows. Another 51% thought positively about U. S. Science and technological developments. I must admit, this latter data has left me a bit dumbfounded.
Argentine Views on American Exports.
I have heard countless Argentine friends complain about "Hollywood" and the "crass, commercial" nature of U. S. Films and TV shows. But it's hard to imagine why anyone would think negatively about contributions of the U. S. Scientific community. Can medical breakthroughs, Cystic Fibrosis research, telephones, television, microchips, cameras, computers, airplanes, the Internet, WiFi, Google Maps, GPS and iPods really be all that bad?
Finally, only 10% of Argentines said they positively view "the spread of U. S. Ideas" in the world. An interesting survey might look at what kind of ideas Argentines find attractive and which - if any - countries they hold in very high esteem. Could it be that the tendency of Argentines to complain - about everything, not just the U. S. - affected the views they expressed in the Pew survey?
SUMMARY OF FINDINGS: Any envy theory is supported by the data. It also can be argued the hate and distrust of prosperity and power is spread around the globe. PEOPLE ARE JUST PISSED OFF. There will be a quiz on the results later.
Here is a link to the survey results: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=256
What bullshit. If superficial kissy, kissy on meeting constitutes good manners, then all society is doomed. How about some reality. Ever tried to cross a road at a dedicated crossing? Try is what you will do because they will run you down. Driving on the roads in the Capital is an object lesson in lack of courtesy, selfishness and rudeness. Walking along a sidewalk they will atempt to force you off the sidewalk and into traffic. How about punctuality? The height of rudeness when I was growing up, was to be late for a set time. Here lateness is de rigeur. And no apology either. Return a telephone call. That's totally out of context, that's the argentinean culture / behavior and it's not racism against a particular nationality. We are discussing if there is a particular racism against Americans.
Dictionary. Com's standard definition of racism is as follows:
Rac ⋅ism [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA.
–noun.
1. A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. A policy, system of government, etc. Based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. Hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
As Americans are made up of a diverse group of various ethnic backrounds, it would be difficult to believe that the Argentinians would be "racist" against Americans.
They may be "classists," "elitists" or just plain old intolerant of other countries.
It would even be hard for the Argentinians to claim racism against the Paraguayans or any other residents of Argentina since they share common Hispanic bloodlines. Yes, I know that the Argentinians have other European origins.
Jack
Great post with objective premises.
And MCSE, my post that you dismiss as not relevant, was a direct reply to your post on courtesy and politeness; ie. I rebutted your nonsense post.
I think Quackhunter has the last and final say.
Argento
Great post with objective premises.
And MCSE, my post that you dismiss as not relevant, was a direct reply to your post on courtesy and politeness; ie. I rebutted your nonsense post.You rebbuted. Aha, I understand.
MCSE, Aqualung and El Queso have in the past day expended a great deal of effort in collective fellatio.I only can see a serial antagonist in here.
As Americans are made up of a diverse group of various ethnic backrounds, it would be difficult to believe that the Argentinians would be "racist" against AmericansThat's very accurated, however, in countries like Argentina and the USA, and Paraguay (among others) the Juris Solis determines a nationality. There is no word for "hate against a nationality" so in general the term used by the mainstream is "racism" (while in fact, the term "race" it's at least not polite) I agree 100% with the whole post you stated, but this late discussion was initiated by a member who said Argentines were racist towards Americans and based on what is exposed after that, you can see the statement (racism against Americans in Argentina) it's not only unreasonable, but impossible.
Re Quackhunters post of the Pew report. I woke up this morning and thought that perhaps when they did the survey, there may have been the other side of the coin. Ie. The world's attitude towards Argentina and Argentinians. Sadly no.
Another thought I had was how in the hell did they find 800 Argentinians that were considered competent to respond to the survey. The nature of the questions, particularly in regard to the environment I would have thought a tad beyond a representative 800 Argentinian's perceptions. Same too in regard to some of the geographically related questions. Most of the Portenos have never been beyond General Paz or the Riachiallo and apart from the small percentage of the tertiary educated population, are abysmally ignorant about the world in general. Their world and their knowledge of it is a very small pond. Ask a few where Canada is, or where England is in relation to Europe and you will be surprised at their ignorance. Not a criticism of them, but a damming indictment of their education system, poor 20 years ago but failing fast now.
Quackhunter's post of the Pew report and his comments needs to be commended. Bravo!
Argento
You rebbuted. Aha, I understand.
I only can see a serial antagonist in here.Pull your paw away from your prick and read Quackhunter's post on the Pew report. Your entire opinion on Argentinians and their attitude towards America and Americans is comprehensively proven not to be the case. And I guess you are not man enough to say that your opinion is not supported by the facts. Bullshit doesn't always baffle brains.
Argento
Another thought I had was how in the hell did they find 800 Argentinians that were considered competent to respond to the survey. I can see a lot of anger in here.
Most of the Portenos have never been beyond General Paz or the Riachiallo and apart from the small percentage of the tertiary educated population, are abysmally ignorant about the world in general. Their world and their knowledge of it is a very small pond. Ask a few where Canada is, or where England is in relation to Europe and you will be surprised at their ignorance. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. (Yoda)
I am a guy who can see both sides of things. There are many guys here who cannot.
A racist will never be friendly with someone who they truly think is inferior to them. They may tolerate them because they have no choice, but to offer friendly advances, I don't think so.
I was a bit taken aback when I read this from our friend Argento:
On another tack. MCSE, Aqualung and El Queso have in the past day expended a great deal of effort in collective fellatio. This is on the point of Argentine good manners and how offended Argentinians are when what passes for good manners amongst them, is not reciprocated by other nationalities. What bullshit. If superficial kissy, kissy on meeting constitutes good manners, then all society is doomed. How about some reality. Well, first of all, I don't remember talking about good manners in the post (of mine) that Argento was alluding to. In fact, trying to lump what the three of us were saying together is a bit of a straw man argument.
The fact is, we did encounter some pretty shitty stuff from some of our neighbors, as well in the process of trying to rent a house. I was probably a bit wrong to say our neighbor was an "ok" person, but I was trying to say that she was not the terrible person (relatively) she seemed when we moved in. Am I friends with her? No way. We have not asked them to come over and share in our life, although my wife has politely accepted her invitations to come over and visit.
Ignorance causes a lot of problems. Including mistrust, hate, conflict, etc. What I was stating is that a lot of how Argentines react to Americans (which my reply was responding to, not the myriad of ways that Argentine society may be deficient) is not necessarily the reaction of racism in all cases, but of ignorance shaped by one of the things they know most - the Bush administration's foreign policy, which is something that is very openly disliked here. I'm sure we've all seen the grafitti that say things like "Bush cobarde" and other things written on the city's walls.
Was I saying that I approved of Argentine society in general? Was I saying that I liked the idea of guys kissing and that because of that we live in a polite society?
Argento, I respect you and I know that you have a lot of experience here, but you really need to be careful on how you try to lump three separate views into one that you see as an antithesis to how you feel, just because (at least one of) those parts doesn't agree with your obviously open despisement of all Argentinos and all things Argentine in general.
I am actually capable of seeing that not every person in this city is an ass, that people behave in certain patterns due to ignorance and that occasionally they are capable of showing a positive human side.
What I stated in my previous post, or in this one, does not in any way take away from what I have said in the past. I am still frustrated on many levels living here. I am still frustrated many times by attitudes and actions here.
But it ain't all hell. If it was, what would be the point of staying here at all?
And before anyone else challenges anything I've said now or in the past - I do believe there is more racism here in Argentina than in the US by large factors. I do believe that Argentine society in general is full of ignorance and mis-applied ideas and outright rudeness and a lack of caring.
However, at the same time, individuals (as I've stated previously) can be very reliable and indeed make good friends. I just refuse to always focus on the negative, like I did for a time when I was going through a stressful move. What's the point? I'll blow off steam sometimes against stupid crap that happens, but I do not only see bad things here.
Tatshea Travel
03-14-09, 18:00
They were never in the stone age. If we grab Charles Darwin's title, 'The Descent of Man', the Argentineans are descending from western European equivalents to poverty. Instead of voluntary foreign aid, they steal the money, firstly from each other and then from foreign lenders. In the last 'raid' of overseas money, they stole more than U$60 billion dollars. And that is 6 years ago. They currently owe more than U$120 billion dollars to overseas lenders and no one expects that to be repaid. From themselves the goverment has just stolen U$23 billion from people unwise enough to invest in superannuation. Now that is some "foreign aid package". I figure about U$750 per capita over 6 years. Or could it be U$75? (180 billion dollars divided by 6 years divided by 40 million people) No matter, but it is a massive subsidy and transfer of wealth from the first world to an undeserving third world nation.
Always remember that Argentina is the only nation that at the beginning of the 20th century, whose relative economic position compared with its 19th century peers such as the USA, Australia, Canada and South Africa, has not improved and now is beggaring annually somewhere around 5% of its population. Education, health, economy and political freedom indicators are in decline and have been for 20 years. The descent is into primitive society.
ArgentoBest definition ever read.
MissSassBall7
05-15-13, 01:17
Hmm..
Well I'm just going to throw my two cents in.
I'm Asian.
With that said, I think there's a few things I can agree on and disagree on.
I've lived in about 3 different countries so far, and I'm one of the few multi-cultural Asians out there.
I don't really like my particular nationality, and I rarely associate with Asians in general.
I do however see what everyone says, and I think it's the same in every country.
Asians tend to associate among themselves rather than branching out.
You can blame that on a lot of things, religion, language, fear are just a few down the list.
I've been here as a pre-teen and I'm here now as a young adult.
And frankly, as a female Asian, I see few differences xD.
Guys here... Tend to be less racist and more less-developed.
The wolf-whistling, the checking out, and looking at you as if you were an escort.. They haven't and I doubt it will seize for any female staying in this country, honestly.
But the racism I have experienced was actually from the girls.
I have been called China, especially by groups of girls in the bus of walking who think that I won't understand.
And of course the insults follow, like where are her eyes, blah blah blah.
Me? I flipped them off and countered them in English.
I personally get a kick out of it, not going to lie. Because as a female, if they don't like you, you can at least ***** at them back.. And they won't expect it.
Guys? I've personally stopped. I've learned to ignore the whistling and the comments and sometimes the motions..
Would they ever try to get manners?
Not sure but here's to hoping...
But anyways yeah my view? Yeah they can be racist.
But I've seen worst, especially from my own race and you know, it is something that exist everywhere.
TejanoLibre
05-15-13, 04:39
Hmm..
Well I'm just going to throw my two cents in.
I'm Asian.
With that said, I think there's a few things I can agree on and disagree on.
I've lived in about 3 different countries so far, and I'm one of the few multi-cultural Asians out there.
I don't really like my particular nationality, and I rarely associate with Asians in general.
I do however see what everyone says, and I think it's the same in every country.
Asians tend to associate among themselves rather than branching out.
You can blame that on a lot of things, religion, language, fear are just a few down the list.
I've been here as a pre-teen and I'm here now as a young adult.
And frankly, as a female Asian, I see few differences xD.
Guys here... Tend to be less racist and more less-developed.
The wolf-whistling, the checking out, and looking at you as if you were an escort.. They haven't and I doubt it will seize for any female staying in this country, honestly.
But the racism I have experienced was actually from the girls.
I have been called China, especially by groups of girls in the bus of walking who think that I won't understand.
And of course the insults follow, like where are her eyes, blah blah blah.
Me? I flipped them off and countered them in English.
I personally get a kick out of it, not going to lie. Because as a female, if they don't like you, you can at least ***** at them back.. And they won't expect it.
Guys? I've personally stopped. I've learned to ignore the whistling and the comments and sometimes the motions..
Would they ever try to get manners?
Not sure but here's to hoping...
But anyways yeah my view? Yeah they can be racist.
But I've seen worst, especially from my own race and you know, it is something that exist everywhere.
Racism is Rampant in Argentina amongst what I call the educated "White" Argentines.
"White" being Italian, Spanish, German, etc descendants.
First of all I am considered a "White" Argentine by most people, especially my MOTHER!
Being half Italian and half Spanish; all the women in my family are Italians and all the men are Spanish.
I grew up in Texas which has now been reclaimed by the Mexicans but my mother never allowed me to date Mexican girls in Texas although they can be gorgeous.
They are still considered "Maids," or worse. Even Jennifer Lopez!
God, if she only knew what I have been doing or who I have been doing down here!
Enough said.
The term "Chino" down here is used to describe ALL Asians and it is more of an affectionate term and not meant as a derogatory term as far as I know.
You can be Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc and you are still a "Chino" in Argentina.
No offense intended that I know of. I lost a good friend one day because I said something like "Chino de Mierda" but I was not even talking about him!
The guys down here will love you because they have NEVER been with one and the girls are probably just jealous.
All Dominicans are viewed as prostitutes as are Paraguayans for the most part and yes, the girls are absolutely jealous because they know that the Paraguayans are the best in bed and that the Argie men are attracted to them for that reason, and many others!
Paraguayan women are in general very humble, non-smokers, not drug abusers and do not like men that drink too much alcohol! I know, believe me!
As for the outrageous propositions that you are likely to hear on the street there is nothing that you can do about it down here. The Argie men are the worst "Hard" dicks that I have ever encountered in my life.
I hear that the "Wops" are a lot worse!
So take it in stride if a guy says something like, "Hola China " or "Que Linda Chinita!
What a pretty Asian is all that they are saying unless it's a fucking Indian on the street that says something outrageous as if that's going to make you want to have sex with him!
Oops, sorry, there slipped out a little of my "Mother's" upbringing.
God, if I told you some of the things that I was told as a child!
So Argentines do not like Bolivians, Peruvians, Paraguayans, etc. Considered Indians, along with the indigenous Argentine Indian descendants.
Hell , the Argentines don't even like themselves !
An Argentine is an Italian that speaks Spanish but thinks he's British !
I apologize about writing such a long post but this is just one view about racism in Argentina, although somewhat distorted.
It's not my fault!
My mother just does not want a granddaughter with a mustache!
I for one have made up for lost time after being stuck with awful, albeit gorgeous American girlfriends my entire life.
You are correct though, the Asian girls do NOT mix down here. I've only seen it once.
If you wanted to be an Asian Escort you could rule this board Honey!
My in-box is always open as is my revolving bedroom door so please keep in touch!
"Linda Chinita! ".
TL.
Good Luck and Please don't go away ! We need you and your input here !
Racism is Rampant in Argentina amongst what I call the educated "White" Argentines.
"White" being Italian, Spanish, German, etc descendants.
First of all I am considered a "White" Argentine by most people, especially my MOTHER!
Being half Italian and half Spanish; all the women in my family are Italians and all the men are Spanish.
I grew up in Texas which has now been reclaimed by the Mexicans but my mother never allowed me to date Mexican girls in Texas although they can be gorgeous.
They are still considered "Maids," or worse. Even Jennifer Lopez!
God, if she only knew what I have been doing or who I have been doing down here!
Enough said.
The term "Chino" down here is used to describe ALL Asians and it is more of an affectionate term and not meant as a derogatory term as far as I know.
You can be Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc and you are still a "Chino" in Argentina.
No offense intended that I know of. I lost a good friend one day because I said something like "Chino de Mierda" but I was not even talking about him!
The guys down here will love you because they have NEVER been with one and the girls are probably just jealous.
All Dominicans are viewed as prostitutes as are Paraguayans for the most part and yes, the girls are absolutely jealous because they know that the Paraguayans are the best in bed and that the Argie men are attracted to them for that reason, and many others!
Paraguayan women are in general very humble, non-smokers, not drug abusers and do not like men that drink too much alcohol! I know, believe me!
As for the outrageous propositions that you are likely to hear on the street there is nothing that you can do about it down here. The Argie men are the worst "Hard" dicks that I have ever encountered in my life.
I hear that the "Wops" are a lot worse!
So take it in stride if a guy says something like, "Hola China " or "Que Linda Chinita!
What a pretty Asian is all that they are saying unless it's a fucking Indian on the street that says something outrageous as if that's going to make you want to have sex with him!
Oops, sorry, there slipped out a little of my "Mother's" upbringing.
God, if I told you some of the things that I was told as a child!
So Argentines do not like Bolivians, Peruvians, Paraguayans, etc. Considered Indians, along with the indigenous Argentine Indian descendants.
Hell , the Argentines don't even like themselves !
An Argentine is an Italian that speaks Spanish but thinks he's British !
I apologize about writing such a long post but this is just one view about racism in Argentina, although somewhat distorted.
It's not my fault!
My mother just does not want a granddaughter with a mustache!
I for one have made up for lost time after being stuck with awful, albeit gorgeous American girlfriends my entire life.
You are correct though, the Asian girls do NOT mix down here. I've only seen it once.
If you wanted to be an Asian Escort you could rule this board Honey!
My in-box is always open as is my revolving bedroom door so please keep in touch!
"Linda Chinita! ".
TL.
Good Luck and Please don't go away ! We need you and your input here !Of course you always talk shit about Argentinians. Now you are giving advices and telling people how racist Argentinians are when you are from Texas? Is this a joke? What do you know of Argentina and its people Sir?
MissSassBall7
05-15-13, 06:06
Of course you always talk shit about Argentinians. Now you are giving advices and telling people how racist Argentinians are when you are from Texas? Is this a joke? What do you know of Argentina and its people Sir?Woah.. XD Don't judge.. Not taking sides and I suppose I agree on the fact that not everyone's the same from both countries and it goes for any country really...
But... I have to say, stereotypes do exist for a reason.. And the very good reason being that more than most do follow it.
TejanoLibre
05-15-13, 09:35
Of course you always talk shit about Argentinians. Now you are giving advices and telling people how racist Argentinians are when you are from Texas? Is this a joke? What do you know of Argentina and its people Sir?How many times do I have to tell you that I was BORN in Belgrano, Buenos Aires, Argentina but I got to Texas as fast as I could?
I was 6 months old when I moved or when I was taken to Houston, Texas.
The best part of Houston too!
TL.
Born in Argentina but REARED in a typical Argentinian manner in Texas.
I am Fortunate enough to have had Argentinian grandmothers and Parents !
I never even saw myself in the mirror until I was 11 years old !
I had my breakfast brought to me in bed every morning with the TV already turned on .
All I had to do was stretch out my hands and legs so I could be dressed in bed , combed and taken to school by my hand !
Spoiled Rotten! To the Core!
Now I EXPECT my girlfriends to do the same ! I guess that's the problem .
Been called a Gentleman more often than an Asshole in my life!
I had the best of both upbringings, a Catholic School Boy and Altar boy too!
And a professional Nude Model but that's another thread!
Ja!
Come on Missy!
Please give me a more complete reply if you can!
Took me a while to post my opinion or thoughts on Argentine Racism.
Thanks Honey!
How many times do I have to tell you that I was BORN in Belgrano, Buenos Aires, Argentina but I got to Texas as fast as I could?
I was 6 months old when I moved or when I was taken to Houston, Texas.
The best part of Houston too!
TL.
Born in Argentina but REARED in a typical Argentinian manner in Texas.
I am Fortunate enough to have had Argentinian grandmothers and Parents !
I never even saw myself in the mirror until I was 11 years old !
I had my breakfast brought to me in bed every morning with the TV already turned on .
All I had to do was stretch out my hands and legs so I could be dressed in bed , combed and taken to school by my hand !
Spoiled Rotten! To the Core!
Now I EXPECT my girlfriends to do the same ! I guess that's the problem .
Been called a Gentleman more often than an Asshole in my life!
I had the best of both upbringings, a Catholic School Boy and Altar boy too!
And a professional Nude Model but that's another thread!
Ja!
Come on Missy!
Please give me a more complete reply if you can!
Took me a while to post my opinion or thoughts on Argentine Racism.
Thanks Honey!Based on your definition of Argentinians being racist, and if you consider yourself an Argentinian, you are a racist as well right?
You were telling to an "Asian girl" what? Why don't you disclose from what country she is from? Is she a tourist? Does she speak Spanish? If not, how does she know that Argentinians are racist? Reading your book?
Is that Asian a product of your own creation?
Is obvious that you have not "real Argentinian friends", other ways you wouldn't say the things you say about this country.
When I was 12 years old I lived in "Lanus Oeste" for two years, and two of my best friends were Japanese whose father owned a "tintoreria" (cleaners), and the whole family was very grateful in living in Argentina among all the Argentinians that welcome them after saving themselves from the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Please tell that to your (Asian friend!
Why don't you take all that hate out of your chest and start becoming friendly (not arrogant!) with the Argentinians? You will change your point of view about the country that you reside. You are suffering living in such a terrible place right? Can't wait to go home eh?
If you are nice to the Argentinians guest what? You may save a fortune no going to Exedra looking for "Gatos", and instead you could get a real Argentinian girl and start a nice relationship with her.
Open your mind! Don't be so negative! Would you like to "make love"(no fck...ing!) to a beautiful educate Argentinian girl that you don't find in the "puticlubs?' well... Change your attitude and don't play the Spiderman thing! It just doesn't impress anyone in Baires!
Based on your definition of Argentinians being racist, and if you consider yourself an Argentinian, you are a racist as well right?
You were telling to an "Asian girl" what? Why don't you disclose from what country she is from? Is she a tourist? Does she speak Spanish? If not, how does she know that Argentinians are racist? Reading your book?
Is that Asian a product of your own creation?
Is obvious that you have not "real Argentinian friends", other ways you wouldn't say the things you say about this country.
When I was 12 years old I lived in "Lanus Oeste" for two years, and two of my best friends were Japanese whose father owned a "tintoreria" (cleaners), and the whole family was very grateful in living in Argentina among all the Argentinians that welcome them after saving themselves from the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Please tell that to your (Asian friend!
Why don't you take all that hate out of your chest and start becoming friendly (not arrogant!) with the Argentinians? You will change your point of view about the country that you reside. You are suffering living in such a terrible place right? Can't wait to go home eh?
If you are nice to the Argentinians guest what? You may save a fortune no going to Exedra looking for "Gatos", and instead you could get a real Argentinian girl and start a nice relationship with her.
Open your mind! Don't be so negative! Would you like to "make love"(no fck...ing!) to a beautiful educate Argentinian girl that you don't find in the "puticlubs?' well... Change your attitude and don't play the Spiderman thing! It just doesn't impress anyone in Baires!I have to agree with most of what TL says. Obviously all Argentines are not racist, but a great many are. I live in a very mixed neighborhood. There is a very defined pecking order amongst the Argentines and those from Chile, Ecuador, Bolivia, Japan, Paraguay and the lone "Yankee" who live here. Of course this is a rural area where education has not reached any where near its full potential. Many are very arrogant, rude and with absolutely no respect for any one or anything. These are the people who are probably listening to our presidents bi weekly tirades informing us all that Argentina is the first in the world in almost all areas and that all is well. Its the rest of the world that is not doing well and that they are jealous. As for a "normal Argentina girlfriend"? I have had more then one tell me that men are only good for two things. One is to pay your bills. The other is that only a man can get them pregnant when they decide they want a child. Of course not all Argentine women are like this, but a great many are.
MissSassBall7
05-16-13, 07:26
Alright you.
I'm only going to say this once, so you better speak enough English to comprehend what I'm about to say and stop pissing me off.
First off, stop talking about me like I'm not here, because clearly unless you have mental retardation, I'm here writing and I exist.
Secondly, those questions should have been directed to me, no?
He knows me the same exact way that you do, from online.
You honestly think he knows more about me then you do?
I'm Korean. No I'm not a tourist, and I speak more Spanish than to just say I know it.
How do I know if Argentinians are racist?
Because I've lived here you fool.
I have lived here in this country for about 4 or 5 years combined all together.
I haven't lived in just one area either, I've lived in wealthy areas such as Belgrano all the way to Parque Chacabuco.
You still want to tell me that I don't know the types of people here?
Please, shut it, you're only lowering yourself by speaking.
I have friends in many different countries, including here.
Yes not everyone here is racist. I have some of my most loyal friends here so whatever hate you throw at people saying "OH YOU HATE EVERYONE" please, stuff it.
Hiroshima?
No offense but that was years ago.
That was around the time when Argentina was a wealthy country.
When they could afford to fill the streets with stones.
You think I don't know the history?
Let me just tell you, that you should really stop underestimating people.
You clearly don't know me, so you wouldn't know that I'm a history nut.
And if you want me to know something, maybe you should tell me yourself!
You're the one classifying me as his "Asian friend".
You can't even call me just plain friend? The Asian of course needs to come with it?
Come on, you're being a downright hypocrite here.
Maybe it's true, he lives here so he should learn to open up a bit more.
But you know, there are bound to be pros and cons about everyone in the whole freaking world.
And if you don't know this, I honestly don't know what to tell you besides the fact that you're a downright fool.
I think you meant to come across as intelligent and putting TL into his place, but all you've done is display your own anger and YOU aren't impressing anyone else here.
So please, shut it.
You're complaining about his negativity, but yet you're the one putting everyone down to display Argentinian patriotism.
Like really?
Daddy Rulz
05-16-13, 16:08
I also think it's funny that the boludo told somebody to be humble. Imagine an Argentine telling somebody to be less arrogant. JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA.
I like this chickI like her too.
I wonder if we can get her on the stripper pole at the house?
Okay, okay, I was just kidding!
I don't want to get in her line of fire.
Thanks,
Jackson.
Alright you.
I'm only going to say this once, so you better speak enough English to comprehend what I'm about to say and stop pissing me off.
First off, stop talking about me like I'm not here, because clearly unless you have mental retardation, I'm here writing and I exist.
Secondly, those questions should have been directed to me, no?
He knows me the same exact way that you do, from online.
You honestly think he knows more about me then you do?
I'm Korean. No I'm not a tourist, and I speak more Spanish than to just say I know it.
How do I know if Argentinians are racist?
Because I've lived here you fool.
I have lived here in this country for about 4 or 5 years combined all together.
I haven't lived in just one area either, I've lived in wealthy areas such as Belgrano all the way to Parque Chacabuco.
You still want to tell me that I don't know the types of people here?
Please, shut it, you're only lowering yourself by speaking.
I have friends in many different countries, including here.
Yes not everyone here is racist. I have some of my most loyal friends here so whatever hate you throw at people saying "OH YOU HATE EVERYONE" please, stuff it.
Hiroshima?
No offense but that was years ago.
That was around the time when Argentina was a wealthy country.
When they could afford to fill the streets with stones.
You think I don't know the history?
Let me just tell you, that you should really stop underestimating people.
You clearly don't know me, so you wouldn't know that I'm a history nut.
And if you want me to know something, maybe you should tell me yourself!
You're the one classifying me as his "Asian friend".
You can't even call me just plain friend? The Asian of course needs to come with it?
Come on, you're being a downright hypocrite here.
Maybe it's true, he lives here so he should learn to open up a bit more.
But you know, there are bound to be pros and cons about everyone in the whole freaking world.
And if you don't know this, I honestly don't know what to tell you besides the fact that you're a downright fool.
I think you meant to come across as intelligent and putting TL into his place, but all you've done is display your own anger and YOU aren't impressing anyone else here.
So please, shut it.
You're complaining about his negativity, but yet you're the one putting everyone down to display Argentinian patriotism.
Like really?I nominate this Lady for Queen of A. P. and respect her ferocity.
God damn right the Argies are prejudiced against ALL races (better yet, nationalities).
Tell it like it is Girl!
Jackpot.
Caricoso is a xenophobic ignoramus who tries to sound intelligent. He has a typical Argentine inferiority complex. Those who respond to his sensless rantings just lower themselves to his level. Just ignore him.
Tres3.
MissSassBall7
05-16-13, 19:46
I honestly wasn't expecting to come home to this... First of all.. Thank you, I'm flattered. No but like actually.. It made me laugh first thing when I got home (:
Secondly.. Haha stripper pole.. Doubt I'll ever end up going that way as a career choice as I'll stay here about 2 years at the very maximum but thank you for the offer?
And I mean I'm not taking sides and targeting anyone really but I mean you could have this argument about males and females and you can get nowhere with it. Everyone in life has their bad and good sides, and you can't ignore one and target the other whether it's positive or negative.
But damn.. Thanks xD Really, wasn't expecting this.
And about Caricoso, I don't doubt what you said.
Perhaps that's why they're stuck in this country from birth till death.
Whatever it is, I don't regret saying what I did, in my opinion he deserved it.
You can say whatever you want to, but if you play it like a game as if you're smart and not say it directly at me, then hell yeah I'm going to have problems.
And that's your problem if I do for going at me in the first place.
So whatever. :3.
I also think it's funny that the boludo told somebody to be humble. Imagine an Argentine telling somebody to be less arrogant. JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA.You don't think inventing the ballpoint pen gives them the right to be arrogant? Of course they have plenty of other achievements, like winning the World Cup by cheating. And, um, I guess that's about it.
Alright you.
I'm only going to say this once, so you better speak enough English to comprehend what I'm about to say and stop pissing me off.
First off, stop talking about me like I'm not here, because clearly unless you have mental retardation, I'm here writing and I exist.
Secondly, those questions should have been directed to me, no?
He knows me the same exact way that you do, from online.
You honestly think he knows more about me then you do?
I'm Korean. No I'm not a tourist, and I speak more Spanish than to just say I know it.
How do I know if Argentinians are racist?
Because I've lived here you fool.
I have lived here in this country for about 4 or 5 years combined all together.
I haven't lived in just one area either, I've lived in wealthy areas such as Belgrano all the way to Parque Chacabuco.
You still want to tell me that I don't know the types of people here?
Please, shut it, you're only lowering yourself by speaking.
I have friends in many different countries, including here.
Yes not everyone here is racist. I have some of my most loyal friends here so whatever hate you throw at people saying "OH YOU HATE EVERYONE" please, stuff it.
Hiroshima?
No offense but that was years ago.
That was around the time when Argentina was a wealthy country.
When they could afford to fill the streets with stones.
You think I don't know the history?
Let me just tell you, that you should really stop underestimating people.
You clearly don't know me, so you wouldn't know that I'm a history nut.
And if you want me to know something, maybe you should tell me yourself!
You're the one classifying me as his "Asian friend".
You can't even call me just plain friend? The Asian of course needs to come with it?
Come on, you're being a downright hypocrite here.
Maybe it's true, he lives here so he should learn to open up a bit more.
But you know, there are bound to be pros and cons about everyone in the whole freaking world.
And if you don't know this, I honestly don't know what to tell you besides the fact that you're a downright fool.
I think you meant to come across as intelligent and putting TL into his place, but all you've done is display your own anger and YOU aren't impressing anyone else here.
So please, shut it.
You're complaining about his negativity, but yet you're the one putting everyone down to display Argentinian patriotism.
Like really?I am sorry you can't integrate with the Argentinians. It must be really hard for you to live like that.
That is the reason when you are in another country you need to be polite, curious, and... Please don't use the type of language that sound ordinary.
Follow my advise! The nicer you are, the more friends you will get. Right?
Want a Argentinian boyfriend? If you're educated, good looking and fun, you can get one. Trust me! You'll have a totally different opinion about the Argentinians, it won't be a need to recur to A.P. And you will avoid having a bad experience of reading mi posts which by the way are written in a terrible English. (Perhaps you will like to post in Spanish. Let me know!
Kisses (The Argentinian way).
I also think it's funny that the boludo told somebody to be humble. Imagine an Argentine telling somebody to be less arrogant. JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA.Are you the typical gringo envious of the good looking Argentinian guys that get the chicks that you don't even dream to have? Don't worry. You too, if you are respectful, nice, and... Please have charisma, and personality.
Personality means that you think and act for yourself without joining others to make noise. That's the reason girls love Argentinian guys and you get overcharged!
Daddy Rulz. I like you anyway! Someday you will understand (if you are curious!) why we are so unique!
Ah! Thank you for the compliment calling me "Boludo" why you know what that really means! .
You don't think inventing the ballpoint pen gives them the right to be arrogant? Of course they have plenty of other achievements, like winning the World Cup by cheating. And, um, I guess that's about it.Where were you lately? I remember you as my English teacher! I learnt from you all the "bad" words in a single post. I thank you for that. I am open for more new ones as soon as you reply to my post!
About the World Cup? How did you like the second gol that the "Genius Maradona" scored (Mano de Dios) (Hand of God for you)? (Cheating right?) The best gold in the History of soccer! Now we have Messi He is cheating too right?
Thank you for all the good things you always say about Argentina and the Argentinians. Great supporter!
Caricoso is a xenophobic ignoramus who tries to sound intelligent. He has a typical Argentine inferiority complex. Those who respond to his sensless rantings just lower themselves to his level. Just ignore him.
Tres3.Mr. Tres3,
I propose to have a chat just of envious people like you of the Argentinians who can get the Argie girls (free), but you can only get someone for 45' with bad temperament from a puticlub and charging you gringo prices!
Thank you for defining me as a "xenophobic ignoramus" Cute! You are my Therapist! How do you do it so quick and accurate? Now I know I have a inferiority complex! Thank you Doc!
I have to agree with most of what TL says. Obviously all Argentines are not racist, but a great many are. I live in a very mixed neighborhood. There is a very defined pecking order amongst the Argentines and those from Chile, Ecuador, Bolivia, Japan, Paraguay and the lone "Yankee" who live here. Of course this is a rural area where education has not reached any where near its full potential. Many are very arrogant, rude and with absolutely no respect for any one or anything. These are the people who are probably listening to our presidents bi weekly tirades informing us all that Argentina is the first in the world in almost all areas and that all is well. Its the rest of the world that is not doing well and that they are jealous. As for a "normal Argentina girlfriend"? I have had more then one tell me that men are only good for two things. One is to pay your bills. The other is that only a man can get them pregnant when they decide they want a child. Of course not all Argentine women are like this, but a great many are.Do you know that I suffer from the same thing you do In other parts of the world?
You are smart enough to know that the people you are talking about although they are real, is just a sector of the population. How about the others?
Arrogance? Ask what a French think of an American! What a German thinks about a French! What an Spaniard thinks about an Italian and a Portuguese thinks about a Spaniard and a Ukrainian thinks about a Russian..and the list goes on and on!
They all think that the other ones are the arrogant!
For the un-integrated person in Argentina, the Argentinians seems to be arrogant because they compare them with the own culture. Make an effort being humble and you see that the Argentinians are the most wonderful people in the world willing to help you. History doesn't lie!
I appreciate you post since you seem to have ideas of you own without being conducted by other's PM.
MissSassBall7
05-18-13, 05:02
Let me start with this.
I guess I didn't make it clear.
I wanted you to understand me, but clearly you didn't.
I did say that I have some of my most loyal friends here.
As in.. I HAVE ARGENTINIAN FRIENDS YOU DUMBASS.
Do you understand now?
I was about 12 when I first got here.
I KNOW HOW TO MAKE FRIENDS.
I'VE DONE ENOUGH SOCIALIZING IN TEENAGE GROUPS AND ADULTS AND DINNER PARTIES TO KNOW HOW TO MAKE FRIENDS.
Enough to know that you're not someone worth getting knowing because you're the type of person that disregards everything that other people say and just get to their point. No. Maybe you're socializing wrong? Did that thought ever occur to you?
If not, ignorance isn't an excuse for your stupidity right now. It really isn't.
It's not like I hate Argentinians, I really don't. Trust me.
I just hate rude comments everywhere I walk.
Boyfriend? Honey, not all women want someone.
I turned down pro golfers and guys with families who has legacies in Ivy Leagues for a reason.
It's a personal issue. Not something you would know or even have to know.
If you know women that all want to date and settle down, you should really consider switching your friend group of more educated women.
You sound like my lengua teacher from a school here actually.
She hated English, hated people who spoke English, hated the thought of USA.
Told me to shut up and stop complaining in English and start learning Spanish.
I wonder what her son would have done if they suddenly moved to USA and was told that rudely to shut the hell up and learn the language. Oh wait, the stereotypical Argentinians wouldn't bother because they feel superior to everyone else right?
Just stop talking sweetheart.
I think I'm done lowering myself to you, you're not worth it.
Seriously, go back to your group of people who you are content with.
By the way, I will say I'm curious to where you grew up.
You speak English but not that well, yet display such arrogance.
I want to say Belgrano but I know so many nice people there that it would be an insult to them.
Don't bother replying, I hope you have a nice day. I really do. The type where you wake up, get out to wherever you're going and birds shit on you.
Ciao.
Daddy Rulz
05-18-13, 05:03
Are you the typical gringo envious of the good looking Argentinian guys that get the chicks that you don't even dream to have? Don't worry. You too, if you are respectful, nice, and... Please have charisma, and personality.
Personality means that you think and act for yourself without joining others to make noise. That's the reason girls love Argentinian guys and you get overcharged!
Daddy Rulz. I like you anyway! Someday you will understand (if you are curious!) why we are so unique!
Ah! Thank you for the compliment calling me "Boludo" why you know what that really means! .Yes I realize that the 30,000 sex workers in Buenos Aires are working for the 40 yankees on this board and that all Argentine men, who are the only real men that have ever lived are able to seduce any woman, anywhere in the world, at any time and would never, ever, under for any reason go to a privado or bar like Black.
Boludo literally means big balls, but is most often used between friends as a greeting, my usage here is the second kind meaning asshole. You're obviously not very smart and an asshole as well so I could have used pelotudo, but decided to temper my remarks somewhat because I don't like to be too mean to the mentally challenged.
Thanks for sharing.
MissSassBall7
05-18-13, 05:18
Do you know that I suffer from the same thing you do In other parts of the world?
You are smart enough to know that the people you are talking about although they are real, is just a sector of the population. How about the others?
Arrogance? Ask what a French think of an American! What a German thinks about a French! What an Spaniard thinks about an Italian and a Portuguese thinks about a Spaniard and a Ukrainian thinks about a Russian..and the list goes on and on!
They all think that the other ones are the arrogant!
For the un-integrated person in Argentina, the Argentinians seems to be arrogant because they compare them with the own culture. Make an effort being humble and you see that the Argentinians are the most wonderful people in the world willing to help you. History doesn't lie!
I appreciate you post since you seem to have ideas of you own without being conducted by other's PM.Oh and what about you?
You defend Argentinians like they're picture perfect!
You're the one that's telling everyone else off for even stating a minority and how that effects us.
Yeah, there are typical people that a certain country can hate.
But you want to know something really funny honey?
Ask people from Brasil about Argentinians. Ask people from Paraguay or Uruguay. Even Chile.
You guys are commonly described as white trash.
The type that nearly wiped out the Indians when the originals from Italy invaded in.
Your language? It's not fully Spanish, it's a mix between Spanish, Italian and even a bit of french.
"History doesn't lie!
Directly your quote hon.
What do you have to say to that?
You act like one of those annoying American bitches who are always like "I'm 100 percent Italian baby" or "I'm part German, British and Irish".
No, you're just a mutt. But honestly who isn't these days?
Who are you to be that much of a hypocrite?
And oh, because you seem to have trouble understanding English, a hypocrite is someone that criticizes other people for doing something wrong when they're doing the same thing. You in short.
Argentinians are arrogant too!
How fucking dare you say that other people from other countries are and exclude your own kind?
Who the hell do you think you are to put down other people?
Ladies and gentlemen, I think you've just seen exhibit A of Argentine racism.
Enough Said.
Cordoba Dan
05-18-13, 09:12
Well, I guess you weren't just shittin around when you selected your AP name. Welcome.
Ugh, sorry to chime into this as I am really new to this forum, but after reading this and as an Argentine I have to tell you Caricoso, that you are putting Argentine to shame iwith your idiotic comments. Stfu already.
Are you the typical gringo envious of the good looking Argentinian guys that get the chicks that you don't even dream to have? Don't worry. You too, if you are respectful, nice, and... Please have charisma, and personality.
Personality means that you think and act for yourself without joining others to make noise. That's the reason girls love Argentinian guys and you get overcharged!
Daddy Rulz. I like you anyway! Someday you will understand (if you are curious!) why we are so unique!
Ah! Thank you for the compliment calling me "Boludo" why you know what that really means! .
God was in the process of creating the world. He was chilling with St. Peter and he said, "You know, Pete, I think I will make a country and call it Argentina. It will be beautiful with mountains and rivers and waterfalls and fertile soil. It won't have any earthquakes or tornadoes or hurricanes." St. Peter says, "Gee, big guy, that sounds great but is that really fair to the rest of the world, to give one country so much?"
God says, "Don't worry, Pete; wait until you see the people I am going to put there."
That is a very old joke, still funny though.
God was in the process of creating the world. He was chilling with St. Peter and he said, "You know, Pete, I think I will make a country and call it Argentina. It will be beautiful with mountains and rivers and waterfalls and fertile soil. It won't have any earthquakes or tornadoes or hurricanes." St. Peter says, "Gee, big guy, that sounds great but is that really fair to the rest of the world, to give one country so much?"
God says, "Don't worry, Pete; wait until you see the people I am going to put there."
That is a very old joke, still funny though.Duh ... Let me guess, mmmm. Its not Japan or Sweden right?
Arguments in favor: Lived at home until he was thirty, never had a job, had 12 drinking buddies.
Arguments against: Where in Argentina could you find three wise men, or a virgin?
Ugh, sorry to chime into this as I am really new to this forum, but after reading this and as an Argentine I have to tell you Caricoso, that you are putting Argentine to shame iwith your idiotic comments. Stfu already.
Look who started and putting US to shame and insulting Argentina! He said... I also think it's funny that the boludo told somebody to be humble. Imagine an Argentine telling somebody to be less arrogant. JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA." Nice guy eh?
I get your point Caricoso, however I guess this forum is mainly for foreigners and I know first hand that they do not have many places to ***** and rant, and you know how they get the gringo treatment, it is very frustrating for sure. Just live and let live. It really is kinda bizarre getting all patriotic on a forum about mongering. Bare in mind, there are many cultural differences, you come out mean and rude.
Look who started and putting US to shame and insulting Argentina! He said... I also think it's funny that the boludo told somebody to be humble. Imagine an Argentine telling somebody to be less arrogant. JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA." Nice guy eh?
Daddy Rulz
05-20-13, 11:16
Look who started and putting US to shame and insulting Argentina! He said... I also think it's funny that the boludo told somebody to be humble. Imagine an Argentine telling somebody to be less arrogant. JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA." Nice guy eh?I love Argentina. I was insulting you, you clown. The only thing wrong with this country is under educated megalomaniacs just like you run it. We are not laughing with you Caricuture we are most certainly laughing at you.
Don't know if this was profiling, a no no in the PC US. Made a round trip to Yapeyu. On the way back the bus was boarded twice at checkpoints by police. I was sitting near the front on top so didn't see what was going on behind me. First time took up about 20 minutes, the second about an hour. The second time they took a black guy off for about twenty minutes then let him back on. Then the questioned another black guy at the front of the bus for about 10 minutes. Made a long bus ride a lot longer.
Don B.
This is really a tricky forum because to say: Argentines are... Is as racist as to say for example Afros are... Or Japanese are ... Or Jews are... Etc etc etc.
As a foreigner living here for decades I have found that not being Argentine, in general, has been more to my benefit than otherwise.
Now, are Argentines racists? NO! 100% NO! They are nationalists. And that can be worse than racism! They believe that the Argentine "NATION" is superior to any other nation in the World.
My assistant for many years was a Chinese / Indonesian. Not once in all the years she worked with me did she feel racially excluded. Yes, she was treated differently. Most of the time to her benefit.
I'm a Brit and yes, I haven't been treated as an Argentine. I have had doors opened that many Argies in my condition would never have seen open.
I live in a very quiet, excluded area quite near BsAs but I have a neighbour two houses away who is Paraguayan. Is it racism that I have an ongoing battle with him because on Sundays he has half of Paraguay at his home for asados listening to blaring Chamame music while I try to sleep my siesta?
Is it racism when 80% of all pick-pockets in Buenos Aires are Peruvian or Chilean? (Yes, I can prove that).
In all my years of doing business in this country I have had three rubber checks. All three from Americans! It has never occurred to me to say or even think, Americans are untrustworthy. I had THREE bad experiences. That's it!
One of the chicas that reports here in AP has been fucked out of well over a 1000 US by an American "client" who at one time was a regular poster. She's too embarrassed with the situation to allow me to report here her name or the "artist" who fucked her out of her well earned money.
So, does one or two bastards make a nation?
There are some very good Argies, there are some very bad yanks. There are some very bad Argies and there are some very good yanks. There are very few good or bad Welsh in the World. There are very few of us!
This is really a tricky forum because to say: Argentines are... Is as racist as to say for example Afros are... Or Japanese are ... Or Jews are... Etc etc etc.
As a foreigner living here for decades I have found that not being Argentine, in general, has been more to my benefit than otherwise.
Now, are Argentines racists? NO! 100% NO! They are nationalists. And that can be worse than racism! They believe that the Argentine "NATION" is superior to any other nation in the World.
My assistant for many years was a Chinese / Indonesian. Not once in all the years she worked with me did she feel racially excluded. Yes, she was treated differently. Most of the time to her benefit.
I'm a Brit and yes, I haven't been treated as an Argentine. I have had doors opened that many Argies in my condition would never have seen open.
I live in a very quiet, excluded area quite near BsAs but I have a neighbour two houses away who is Paraguayan. Is it racism that I have an ongoing battle with him because on Sundays he has half of Paraguay at his home for asados listening to blaring Chamame music while I try to sleep my siesta?
Is it racism when 80% of all pick-pockets in Buenos Aires are Peruvian or Chilean? (Yes, I can prove that).
In all my years of doing business in this country I have had three rubber checks. All three from Americans! It has never occurred to me to say or even think, Americans are untrustworthy. I had THREE bad experiences. That's it!
One of the chicas that reports here in AP has been fucked out of well over a 1000 US by an American "client" who at one time was a regular poster. She's too embarrassed with the situation to allow me to report here her name or the "artist" who fucked her out of her well earned money.
So, does one or two bastards make a nation?
There are some very good Argies, there are some very bad yanks. There are some very bad Argies and there are some very good yanks. There are very few good or bad Welsh in the World. There are very few of us!I absolutely agree with you, I would add that in large cities you tend to run into more scams. Even in the Us, some Americans living in more suburban areas are somewhat fearful when going into large cities like NY because they know they have to be much more alert. I guess it depends on where you are coming from and where you are going. However I personally don't like to generalize.
So when an Argie calls someone 'negra mierda' that is just nationalism and not racism?
So when an Argie calls someone 'negra mierda' that is just nationalism and not racism?Yes and no. It is like when in the US an African American calls another African American " Nigger ". I must also add that somethimes the expression " negra / o de mierda " that is derogatory is used towards white people too. It could have to do with skin color, but it also has to do with certain habits and attitudes.
I've lived in 5 different countries on 3 different continents (including 7 years in Saudi Arabia!) and I'm now trapped in Argentina and really don't like it very much, but I have to admit that it's probably the least racist country I've ever been in. Xenophobia on the other hand, is rife (as Aqualung says). The jingoistic, nationalistic fervour is ingrained from the moment that kids start pre-school. It's already making me uneasy that my 4 year old is involved in flag raising and striking ceremonies every day.
It is unfortunate that dark-skinned people are often referred to as 'negro' and orientals as 'chino' and it made me uncomfortable for years (actually, 'chino' still does, particularly when the person referred to is obviously not Chinese) but it's become pretty clear that there's not anything racially charged about the terms and there's not a horrendous history of suppression of peoples based on skin colour, so it's fair to conclude that those terms are rarely used pejoratively.
In fact the worst case of racism I've ever witnessed in my 6 years in Argentina is Tejano Libre on this very board. He can't even type the word 'Indian' without spitting and commenting that they're the lowest form of life, and I don't give a damn how much good he does for anybody, for that reason alone I want nothing to do with him.
Argentinos (in general of course) don't like indians or blacks. Call that what you may but I call it racism. You see it every day on the street and what they did to the indians in this country makes the US gov't look like angels (compared to what we did to our indians) . Another problem is that is similar (again in general) is the general lack of respect. They don't respect anything here. They throw trash everywhere, they drive like there are no rules of the road at all (a argentine friend describes it as other drivers or cars just don't exist so I can do what ever I want) Seven countries have travel advisory warnings on traveling to Argentina saying that you are not safe on the road or on the side walk! Interest rates are astronomical because it is so hard to collect from people that feel they don't need to pay. Most people don't pay their real estate taxes or the taxes on their cars. I could go on and on. This is why most foreigners get treated better (as pointed out in a previous post) , they trust in us more then in a fellow Argentiine. They feel that we are more likely to do the right thing. (compared to a Argentino) I have had this happen to me many times. I could go on and on but I am sure most people get the idea.
Argentinos (in general of course) don't like indians or blacks. Call that what you may but I call it racism. You see it every day on the street and what they did to the indians in this country makes the US gov't look like angels (compared to what we did to our indians) . Another problem is that is similar (again in general) is the general lack of respect. They don't respect anything here. They throw trash everywhere, they drive like there are no rules of the road at all (a argentine friend describes it as other drivers or cars just don't exist so I can do what ever I want) Seven countries have travel advisory warnings on traveling to Argentina saying that you are not safe on the road or on the side walk! Interest rates are astronomical because it is so hard to collect from people that feel they don't need to pay. Most people don't pay their real estate taxes or the taxes on their cars. I could go on and on. This is why most foreigners get treated better (as pointed out in a previous post) , they trust in us more then in a fellow Argentiine. They feel that we are more likely to do the right thing. (compared to a Argentino) I have had this happen to me many times. I could go on and on but I am sure most people get the idea.I have to disagree with a few points. Argentine are mainly dark skinned, the fact that in the city you see more white people means nothing. Also, it was not Argentine who exterminated natives here but Spanish! You are right about trash and driving. Most people do pay their taxes, it is the rich who don't, they are a minority and they think they can get away with anything. Most foreigners get treated better because yes, you are more likely to do the right thing, and also because they see a cow they can milk out of dollars.
Negro isn't the insult, mierda is the insult. One of my best friends is El Negro ... He is not black, just darker than usual. He has never felt insulted by anyone at being called El Negro. Argentines have a tendency for simplifying. Anyone that is a little darker is called Negro, a blonde is called Ruso (so are Jews), Arabs etc are all Turcos, a Polaco is anyone from Eastern Europe etc etc etc. The supermarkets run mostly by Koreans are officially known as Supermercado Chino. It's not due to ignorance as the majority are quite well instructed in geography. They seem to get a kick out of it. The gaucho's woman or wife is called a Chinita. I don't know where this term originates but I'll look into it.
While political correctness in the World in general has reached exaggerated proportions the Argentines live blissfully unaware that the word racism even exists. Argentina was the first country in America to abolish slavery and most Argentines are the first or at the most the second generation of a mixture of nationalities or races.
But don't get me going about their jingoism. Their flag is the most beautiful, their national anthem is the best, their country is the richest and the list can go on for ever.
It's not due to ignorance as the majority are quite well instructed in geography. They seem to get a kick out of it. The gaucho's woman or wife is called a Chinita. I don't know where this term originates but I'll look into it.
That is the point, they get a kick out of name calling and at times it is also a way to show affection (calling somebody negrito, gordito, rusito, etc).
The gaucho wife is called china. That is a quechua dialect voice that means female.
I have to disagree with a few points. Argentine are mainly dark skinned, the fact that in the city you see more white people means nothing. Also, it was not Argentine who exterminated natives here but Spanish! You are right about trash and driving. Most people do pay their taxes, it is the rich who don't, they are a minority and they think they can get away with anything. Most foreigners get treated better because yes, you are more likely to do the right thing, and also because they see a cow they can milk out of dollars.Where I live one in 20 pay their taxes. Every time I buy a piece of property they want you as the buyer to pay up the back taxes. Its a joke!
But the lack of respect thing is a whole other subject, and a proper can of worms! Having spent 7 years in Saudi and 6 years in Argentina I think I'm 'qualified' to make some comparisons and I'd say I'd trust a Saudi over an Argentinian in EVERY respect possible, in EVERY walk of life.
I could make a list of things that I find despicable in this culture that could go on forever, but racism isn't very high on that list (and that's the subject of this thread). The Argentinians don't have a very good history regarding the treatment of their indigenous people, but then nor does any other former colony of European origin. More important is how they treat them now and in my experience they have a lot more respect for them than they do of anyone who isn't Argentinian. Where you're getting the idea that foreigners are treated better I really can't fathom! In certain very specific situations maybe ie. If you're European / North American and trying to rent an apartment without a garantia, your chances are one in a thousand as opposed to zero. Besides these very specific finance related situations I've felt very much discriminated against for not being Argentinian in almost every aspect of life here.
Of course, we all have different life experiences. If you were lucky enough to find a partner here and put in the 10 years it takes to get accepted by her family / peer group, you probably think they're the warmest people on earth. But that's only because they look upon you as an honorary Argentinian!
Most foreigners get treated better because yes, you are more likely to do the right thing, and also because they see a cow they can milk out of dollars.You have got that right!
But the lack of respect thing is a whole other subject, and a proper can of worms! Having spent 7 years in Saudi and 6 years in Argentina I think I'm 'qualified' to make some comparisons and I'd say I'd trust a Saudi over an Argentinian in EVERY respect possible, in EVERY walk of life.
I could make a list of things that I find despicable in this culture that could go on forever, but racism isn't very high on that list (and that's the subject of this thread). The Argentinians don't have a very good history regarding the treatment of their indigenous people, but then nor does any other former colony of European origin. More important is how they treat them now and in my experience they have a lot more respect for them than they do of anyone who isn't Argentinian. Where you're getting the idea that foreigners are treated better I really can't fathom! In certain very specific situations maybe ie. If you're European / North American and trying to rent an apartment without a garantia, your chances are one in a thousand as opposed to zero. Besides these very specific finance related situations I've felt very much discriminated against for not being Argentinian in almost every aspect of life here.
Of course, we all have different life experiences. If you were lucky enough to find a partner here and put in the 10 years it takes to get accepted by her family / peer group, you probably think they're the warmest people on earth. But that's only because they look upon you as an honorary Argentinian!Sorry to hear you had such a tough time here. I always thought that we were very welcoming towards foreigners as a society. After talking to and living with expats for over a decade, I am giving that second thoughts at the very least. I hear how tough it becomes to make local friends, etc. Because of my curious nature, I have all kind of friends, locals, expats, etc. I think language is a very strong barrier. Especially when we are talking about being included within a family, etc. I think at first everybody understands that you struggle, then after a while, when you are not a novelty anymore, they just lose interest. If you can't communicate, they will just talk to whomever is sitting right next to you. Still comparing Saudi Arabia to Argentina is a bit too much, culturally we are very different. I think Argentine can be more easily compared to Italian and Spanish. Countries where you also find a high level of corruption, disregard for the law, trash, etc. We are not the same for sure, but maybe look more alike.
As for native Indians, most people think they are something from the past. History itself has neglected them here, so there is a lot of ignorance about them.
I think language is a very strong barrier..It's not a barrier for me. My Spanish was pretty good before I even got here.
And the only reason I made the comparison with Saudi is because that's a country world renowned for being xenophobic, distrusting and to not treat outsiders very well. In fact, I'd venture a guess that a lot of people would rate it as number 1 in the world for those traits. But only amongst those people who have never been to Argentina.
I'm sorry Nikki, but I can only speak from my own experience and I generally make friends pretty easily, but I can honestly say that I'm yet to meet a single Argentinian (outside of a few family members of a British friend who has been married to an Argentinian woman for 20 years) that I even like, let alone could trust. Paradoxically, that makes me the xenophobe, which I very much dislike, but for the sake of honesty I have to make that call! :
It's not a barrier for me. My Spanish was pretty good before I even got here.
And the only reason I made the comparison with Saudi is because that's a country world renowned for being xenophobic, distrusting and to not treat outsiders very well. In fact, I'd venture a guess that a lot of people would rate it as number 1 in the world for those traits. But only amongst those people who have never been to Argentina.
I'm sorry Nikki, but I can only speak from my own experience and I generally make friends pretty easily, but I can honestly say that I'm yet to meet a single Argentinian (outside of a few family members of a British friend who has been married to an Argentinian woman for 20 years) that I even like, let alone could trust. Paradoxically, that makes me the xenophobe, which I very much dislike, but for the sake of honesty I have to make that call! :That kinda sucks, again, sorry to hear you about your experience. Hope at least you are getting something out of this place that you like (even if it is just the chicas!) or a job, etc.
Daddy Rulz
05-24-13, 18:18
Most foreigners get treated better because yes, you are more likely to do the right thing, and also because they see a cow they can milk out of dollars.In my experience going back years most transactions with foreigners are viewed as a one time event and are seen as an opportunity to gouge. This is something many of us expats have commented on over the years. Apartments are a prime example. I could pay my landlord, in dollars, paid outside of Argentina and yet they don't want to rent to us and ALWAYS try and charge us 150-200% of what they would charge an Argentine.
Chicas are the same. I knew a guy that liked to put together more long time deals and it was almost always the same. A price was agreed on for a certain amount of days and times (he was always generous, most deals included a salary higher than a friend of mine that is a hospital doctor earns for 3 days a week with one overnight) and within two weeks the girl would try and double the price or cut the time in half. When he said no they would stop the deal rather than stick with what they had. The issue was always that they smelled more money.
Everywhere I go people try and charge me more because I'm an expat.
TejanoLibre
05-24-13, 18:24
That is the point, they get a kick out of name calling and at times it is also a way to show affection (calling somebody negrito, gordito, rusito, etc).
The gaucho wife is called china. That is a quechua dialect voice that means female.I remember telling the taxi driver that I was not "Negro" , "Gordo" , or "Flaco" one day!
The terms that they use down here are usually Affectionate by nature but when the context changes:
Negro de mierda. Can apply to a lily white Irishman if his actions or mentality are that of what they are being called.
Indio de mierda, etc. Cabeza!
Aqualung my old friend, is it true that you can be thrown in to jail for calling someone some of these things when they are not affectionate?
TL.
Tejano de Mierda!
But you got me wrong Daddy. I said most foreigners get treated better, that doesn't mean they won't try to rip you off if they can, but the approach is more courteous, that is what I meant And it sucks! Some think that because you can't speak the language, fast enough or with enough slang, you are some kind of retard. I always enjoy the shocker effect when being out with an expat friend, talking in English, then when somebody tries to rip us off (I do not look very Argentine) I wait, and wait, and then kaboom look back at them and go " te pensas que somos dos boludas nosotras? " or " este precio es el normal o para idiotas " Then just walk away. They do get the worst out of me. Only walking hand in hand with an expat you realize that it is not just a spare event (the scam) it can get pretty massive, depending on where you are and what you are doing. Pretty sad indeed.
In my experience going back years most transactions with foreigners are viewed as a one time event and are seen as an opportunity to gouge. This is something many of us expats have commented on over the years. Apartments are a prime example. I could pay my landlord, in dollars, paid outside of Argentina and yet they don't want to rent to us and ALWAYS try and charge us 150-200% of what they would charge an Argentine.
Chicas are the same. I knew a guy that liked to put together more long time deals and it was almost always the same. A price was agreed on for a certain amount of days and times (he was always generous, most deals included a salary higher than a friend of mine that is a hospital doctor earns for 3 days a week with one overnight) and within two weeks the girl would try and double the price or cut the time in half. When he said no they would stop the deal rather than stick with what they had. The issue was always that they smelled more money.
Everywhere I go people try and charge me more because I'm an expat.
I remember telling the taxi driver that I was not "Negro" , "Gordo" , or "Flaco" one day!
The terms that they use down here are usually Affectionate by nature but when the context changes:
Negro de mierda. Can apply to a lily white Irishman if his actions or mentality are that of what they are being called.
Indio de mierda, etc. Cabeza!
Aqualung my old friend, is it true that you can be thrown in to jail for calling someone some of these things when they are not affectionate?
TL.
Tejano de Mierda!Here is one interesting piece of slang: Cabeza I will write about it in the Spanish S.O.S thread just so I don't go off topic here.
Letñs just say that the addition of " cabeza " and " de mierda " is not affectionate.
TejanoLibre
05-24-13, 19:12
Here is one interesting piece of slang: Cabeza I will write about it in the Spanish S.O.S thread just so I don't go off topic here.
Letñs just say that the addition of " cabeza " and " de mierda " is not affectionate.I know that they are not affectionate and I would never say them in an affectionate manner.
Can you go to jail for calling someone a:
Negro.
Indio.
Judio.
Etc,
DE MIERDA?
TL.
I know that they are not affectionate and I would never say them in an affectionate manner.
Can you go to jail for calling someone a:
Negro.
Indio.
Judio.
Etc,
DE MIERDA?
TL.LOL good one! It can be friendly, sometimes among friends they would call each other que borracho de mierda que sos. It is all about the tone that you use and the situation.
I know that they are not affectionate and I would never say them in an affectionate manner.
Can you go to jail for calling someone a:
Negro.
Indio.
Judio.
Etc,
DE MIERDA?
TL.No you can't.
So when an Argie calls someone 'negra mierda' that is just nationalism and not racism?You need to live in Argentina for a long time to understand what that means!
Sorry!
I know that they are not affectionate and I would never say them in an affectionate manner.
Can you go to jail for calling someone a:
Negro.
Indio.
Judio.
Etc,
DE MIERDA?
TL.Do you here the government, the media, or other institutions in Argentina classifying people by races? Black, Asian etc.?
Do you see at lot of racism in Argentina? Where exactly and what form?
You claim yourself being and Argentina (6 month old) and saying that Argentinians are racist, do you consider yourself a racist or you are an exception?
LOL good one! It can be friendly, sometimes among friends they would call each other que borracho de mierda que sos. It is all about the tone that you use and the situation.I thought you say that this forum is mainly about mongering. ?
But the lack of respect thing is a whole other subject, and a proper can of worms! Having spent 7 years in Saudi and 6 years in Argentina I think I'm 'qualified' to make some comparisons and I'd say I'd trust a Saudi over an Argentinian in EVERY respect possible, in EVERY walk of life.
I could make a list of things that I find despicable in this culture that could go on forever, but racism isn't very high on that list (and that's the subject of this thread). The Argentinians don't have a very good history regarding the treatment of their indigenous people, but then nor does any other former colony of European origin. More important is how they treat them now and in my experience they have a lot more respect for them than they do of anyone who isn't Argentinian. Where you're getting the idea that foreigners are treated better I really can't fathom! In certain very specific situations maybe ie. If you're European / North American and trying to rent an apartment without a garantia, your chances are one in a thousand as opposed to zero. Besides these very specific finance related situations I've felt very much discriminated against for not being Argentinian in almost every aspect of life here.
Of course, we all have different life experiences. If you were lucky enough to find a partner here and put in the 10 years it takes to get accepted by her family / peer group, you probably think they're the warmest people on earth. But that's only because they look upon you as an honorary Argentinian!Davie, In Argentina we have tendency to trust Europeans than others because we are coming from there and we are familiar with them. You know...Soccer, religion, food, Latin base language, manners, etc.
It took me a long time in the US to get a "reputation" (although I am white Latino), because for the undereducated Latino means a race not a ethnicity!
In my experience going back years most transactions with foreigners are viewed as a one time event and are seen as an opportunity to gouge. This is something many of us expats have commented on over the years. Apartments are a prime example. I could pay my landlord, in dollars, paid outside of Argentina and yet they don't want to rent to us and ALWAYS try and charge us 150-200% of what they would charge an Argentine.
Chicas are the same. I knew a guy that liked to put together more long time deals and it was almost always the same. A price was agreed on for a certain amount of days and times (he was always generous, most deals included a salary higher than a friend of mine that is a hospital doctor earns for 3 days a week with one overnight) and within two weeks the girl would try and double the price or cut the time in half. When he said no they would stop the deal rather than stick with what they had. The issue was always that they smelled more money.
Everywhere I go people try and charge me more because I'm an expat.Was you the one who called me "Boludo" because you learn that word somewhere but don't know how to use it?
No you can't.It depends how you say it, when, to whom, in what part of a conversation etc.
Very complex! Advise: If you don't understand Argentinian culture don't say those words!
I can say to a girl the club "Dale boluda!" because I want a little discount, and it depends on the intonation of my voice and accentuation, if she goes out with me or send me to hell!
If I have a non porteno accent I shredded!
TejanoLibre
05-25-13, 21:53
Do you here the government, the media, or other institutions in Argentina classifying people by races? Black, Asian etc.?
Do you see at lot of racism in Argentina? Where exactly and what form?
You claim yourself being and Argentina (6 month old) and saying that Argentinians are racist, do you consider yourself a racist or you are an exception?Public Channel 9 Mon-Fri at 11 am on La Cocina del 9 con "El Chinito Loco!
Or the news talking about "un assesino negro en Estados Unidos" , o "un jugador negro " , etc, etc.
I see and hear all types of racism here in BA.
I even feel it when they look at me funny because I'm white in a darker spot at times.
I am an equal opportunity racist:
Give me a reason and anybody can be a real shit!
White, Black, etc. Never met a distasteful Asian.
Thanks,
TL.
And now back to the Chicas!
It depends how you say it, when, to whom, in what part of a conversation etc.
Very complex! Advise: If you don't understand Argentinian culture don't say those words!
I can say to a girl the club "Dale boluda!" because I want a little discount, and it depends on the intonation of my voice and accentuation, if she goes out with me or send me to hell!
If I have a non porteno accent I shredded!Whatever but you still won't go to jail for calling someone names.
Public Channel 9 Mon-Fri at 11 am on La Cocina del 9 con "El Chinito Loco!
Or the news talking about "un assesino negro en Estados Unidos" , o "un jugador negro " , etc, etc.
I see and hear all types of racism here in BA.
I even feel it when they look at me funny because I'm white in a darker spot at times.
I am an equal opportunity racist:
Give me a reason and anybody can be a real shit!
White, Black, etc. Never met a distasteful Asian.
Thanks,
TL.
And now back to the Chicas!El chinito loco is not a racist statement in Argentina. (Two of my friends from Korea) when we played Futbol (Soccer for you), we used to tell them Hey chino tirame la pelota!
In elementary school, secondary school, and university, I had at least one friend called "Gordo" another "Negro" other "Chino" (Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Thai) were called affectionately that way. I was called "flaco" and yes I was! Other were called "enano".
We are very sentimental, and you guys are probably surprise when you see two Argentinian men who greet each other with a hug and a kiss on the cheeks. "Were are not" a "Cool" society, we are a "Warm one" that like to integrate and be integrated. We detest to divide and be individualistic.
I did meet a distasteful Asian! The "fabricated one" who said that my English sucks, and when I asked to communicate with me in Spanish she disappeared! What a robot!
You may get more PM after this!
El chinito loco is not a racist statement in ArgentinaUnfortunately Caricoso, the phrase "in Argentina" is irrelevant in this statement. Differentiating somebody by the colour of their skin or their facial features is racist. It's irrelevant whether it's done in Argentina or Russia or the Falkland Islands. I was horrified when I first arrived here and heard football commentators on national television referring to players as "el negro Wright-Phillips" or "el chino David Silva". Just because your lack of a good education means that you don't see it as racist doesn't make it non-racist. And that's not an insult aimed at you. It's aimed at the Argentinian education system. You're just not taught what is or isn't racist, and being Argentinian, you're also taught that you're always right, so you'll never be able to accept it (in the same way that you're taught a false history of the Malvinas).
Despite this, I've been defending you and Argentina on the racism issue, simply because I believe that the racist language really is used in ignorance rather than pejoratively. The deficiencies in the education system here are not your fault. I've had massive arguments with my friends at home over this issue after the conviction of Luis Suarez for calling someone "negrito" during a football game. He got banned from playing for 8 games for using a word that people call my little boy (who's blonde with blue eyes). It's a difficult argument defending someone who has used such an obviously racist term and I've even lost friends because of it.
What's needed is an improvement in the education system here. Although there's really no excuse. With all the media (TV and internet) from more civilized countries that floods the airwaves here, people really should be taking some notice!
I think we could go on forever on this issue. Whether it is just empty words that mean no harm or if there is indeed a racist background. I believe this has been an issue worldwide, however in more developed countries they turned it back with education, campaigns, real integration, etc. This is the key, Argentina is a developing, or third world country. I am not particularly proud of it, but thinking otherwise is not being realistic.
Nikki. You really have lost your Argentinity.
Where did you learn rationality, logic and realism? Not in Argentina, that's for sure!
;-)
MissSassBall7
05-26-13, 23:53
My name's Ahyoung.
Honey, you don't fucking have the ability to fucking own me in English, and you have problems.
Why do I need to speak Spanish with you?
I'm done talking trash like you.
You're not worth it.
Whether you'd like to admit it or not, you're a racist little fucker, and I hope you rot in this country for the rest of your life.
For the rest of you, honestly forgive me.
I'm not regularly this mad, but he pisses me off.
I'm sure other Argentinians are nice, I know that for a fact actually. But you..
Just fuck off.
Not worth it.
Unfortunately Caricoso, the phrase "in Argentina" is irrelevant in this statement. Differentiating somebody by the colour of their skin or their facial features is racist. It's irrelevant whether it's done in Argentina or Russia or the Falkland Islands. I was horrified when I first arrived here and heard football commentators on national television referring to players as "el negro Wright-Phillips" or "el chino David Silva". Just because your lack of a good education means that you don't see it as racist doesn't make it non-racist. And that's not an insult aimed at you. It's aimed at the Argentinian education system. You're just not taught what is or isn't racist, and being Argentinian, you're also taught that you're always right, so you'll never be able to accept it (in the same way that you're taught a false history of the Malvinas).
Despite this, I've been defending you and Argentina on the racism issue, simply because I believe that the racist language really is used in ignorance rather than pejoratively. The deficiencies in the education system here are not your fault. I've had massive arguments with my friends at home over this issue after the conviction of Luis Suarez for calling someone "negrito" during a football game. He got banned from playing for 8 games for using a word that people call my little boy (who's blonde with blue eyes). It's a difficult argument defending someone who has used such an obviously racist term and I've even lost friends because of it.
What's needed is an improvement in the education system here. Although there's really no excuse. With all the media (TV and internet) from more civilized countries that floods the airwaves here, people really should be taking some notice!Coming from a "instant gratification system" there is no doubt you had been brain washed by that system when your were a kid, and now by the media to the point that you even think that the "Islas Malvinas' are "Yours'.
Another envious of Argentina and its people?
MissSassBall7
05-27-13, 00:05
Oh and just to prove a point..
Where are you from?
And what countries did you live in?
Anyone with logic would agree with the fact that if you're really that smart, you wouldn't come back to Argentina. Honestly? If you could actually live in other countries, why wouldn't you? Admit it, you're trash.
You never answered my questions and you know it.
And why would you?
I fucking owned your ass and you know it.
You're a hypocrite, nothing more and you can't deny it.
I want to go into law because of people like you, trash like you.
People with perhaps more cash than the normal but yet the ones that can't be fully treated as high class.
The ones that feel the need to flaunt what they have to try to overcompensate.
Koreans? I despise the stereotypical ones despite being one because of that.
People like you make me hate the human race.
Let's agree on the fact that perhaps it has nothing to do with race or nationality.
It has to do with ignorance and arrogance and its like a disease.
Do yourself a favor like I've asked you before and shut the hell up.
Because I can guarantee you, that if you were to step foot into UK or USA and spit out hate like this, there's a lot of people that wouldn't think twice before letting a bullet go through a bastard like you.
Now I'll say it again, you're really not worth it.
Hop. The. Fuck. Off.
MissSassBall7, sorry for the off topic, and hope you don't mind me being a bit motherly here, forgive the language but WTF on earth are you doing in a forum like this being 17 yo? You can get yourself and others in trouble here! Caricoso is a tool, but you should not be here being underage.
Fabricated?
My name's Ahyoung.
I'm 18.
I'm enrolling in St. Hilda's College this week, finishing school this December and applying to colleges in UK, top choices being LSE, Cambridge, Oxford along with Ivy Leagues in USA.
Me?
Honey, you don't fucking have the ability to fucking own me in English, and you have problems.
Why do I need to speak Spanish with you?
I'm done talking trash like you.
You're not worth it.
Whether you'd like to admit it or not, you're a racist little fucker, and I hope you rot in this country for the rest of your life.
For the rest of you, honestly forgive me.
I'm not regularly this mad, but he pisses me off.
I'm sure other Argentinians are nice, I know that for a fact actually. But you..
Just fuck off.
Not worth it.
MissSassBall7
05-27-13, 00:51
It's 3 months. And I was going to choose P.S.ych as a minor anyways so might as well as see how worse the human race can get right?
Actually the rules here are a bit unclear.
It says on the website that if you're under 13, you need parental permission implying that you can still get in under 13 in this forum.
The activation thing though, says 18 legally.
But seeing how the legal age for sex I believe in this country although I understand it's complicated is 13, does it really matter at the end of the day?
I don't mind, LOL thank you for worrying, but I can look after myself. Thank anyways though, appreciate it.
As for getting other people into trouble.. Seeing how prostitution in this country is technically illegal yet this forum is dedicated to it...
I'll let you form your own opinion on it.
I just honestly find it amusing to be honest, especially Caricoso.. Would love to know him in person. Something tells me he's less arrogant in person, or he wouldn't have survived this long. I do believe it's for a show, but he pisses me off.
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