Air France crash

[Joe Hernandez]

As most of you know a Airbus with 226 people on board from Rio to Paris dissapeared in the Atlantic. They are guessing this is because lightning hit the airplane and this caused the electronic circuit to fail and kicking off a chain of events that led to this dissaster. Because there is little to no radio contact above the ocean they are searching a large area of probally more then 1000 square mile.

I am not a technician but what I don't understand is that if the electronic system fails there is no way to locate the airplane fast.

I am not sure how this should work but I think it should be pretty easy to install a stand alone censor that sends its location every 1,5 or 10 minutes to a satalite. That way you can predict within a 100 mile radius where the airplane crashed.

With the huge presence of military bases and ships you should be able to start a small scale rescue operation.

P. S. I wonder if this topic can be here, but it seems to me it was the best place

[Member #4112]

According to reports they did receive a brief automated signal indicating an electrical system failure. Also according to experts, aircraft are designed to withstand lighting strikes in flight and no one can recall an incident where lighting brought down and aircraft in recent times.

It is possible the Air France flight encounter wind shear similar to that which caused an aircraft to crash short of the run way in I believe it was Dallas, Texas several years ago.

[Joe Hernandez]

According to reports they did receive a brief automated signal indicating an electrical system failure. Also according to experts, aircraft are designed to withstand lighting strikes in flight and no one can recall an incident where lighting brought down and aircraft in recent times.

It is possible the Air France flight encounter wind shear similar to that which caused an aircraft to crash short of the run way in I believe it was Dallas, Texas several years agoFrom what I heard it's possible that because of the electric failure they did not recive a SOS sign and because of that they don't know exactly to locate the airplane.

Its also supposed to be normal that an airplane also contacts flights control once every hour or hour and a half.

I don't know what the odds are that you can survive a crash in the ocean, but it seems to me that if you can locate the airplane fast it's always better

[Bobby Timz]

All over-water Aircraft carry at least one ELT (Emergency Locater Beacon) and larger ones 2, they are on a guarded frequency and Satellite capable. In addition the "Black Boxes" have water activated "Pingers" attached to them. With said, the antennas still on the ELT's need to bee seen, hard to be seen if your down several hundred feet in the ocean. Also calm waters would be the best for locating them,

I am a major airline wrench.

[Joe Hernandez]

All over water Aircraft carry at least one ELT (Emergency Locater Beacon) and larger ones 2, they are on a guarded frequency and Satellite capable. In addition the "Black Boxes" have water activated "Pingers" attached to them. With said, the antennas still on the ELT's need to bee seen, hard to be seen if your down several hundred feet in the ocean. Also calm waters would be the best for locating them,

I am An Major airline wrench.Thanks, but is it true that a airplane could go 1 to 2 hours without contact over the ocean?

Seems to be it's pretty easy to fix and by having a stand alone solution it should not matter which problems the airplane has.

A possible rescue mission or fact finding would be a lot easier if you know where the airplane went down. It seems to me that they have to cover 1000's of mile to find the airplane.

[Shane44]

Today's NY Times states the planes automated mechanical reporting system wired Air France's maintenance base in Paris that "its electrical system had malfunctioned and that cabin pressure had been lost." This report was not picked up by Air France for several hours after the crash may have occurred. Although as previous writers have stated, the plane is equipped with an ELT, the area over which the Brazilian Air Force has to conduct its search is vast and the depth the ELT may be transmitting from could also be a factor in its signal's degradation. I can think of two planes that went down in the 60's to 70's period due to lightening strikes. A USAF B-52 off the east coast of Spain which had nuclear bombs on board [all recovered], and when the Shah of iran was in power, Iran lost a C5A from a lightening hit.

[Joe Hernandez]

Thanks.

What I still don't understand why it can take up to 30 hours to find the crash site.

It must really suck that if you somehow survive a crash you still lose your life because help is not there in time.

I don't really know how you can do it but there should be a way that you can be found earlier then 30 hours.

[Member #4112]

Joe,.

You know those little yellow live vests they demo on the plane, thats probably the only thing that is floating about now and very hard to see from any altitude on the ocean and we are talking a lot of ocean here if you look at the possible track of the aircraft.

Over open water, they may never find it.

[Joe Hernandez]

Doppelganger,

I agree that the chances that there are survivors but you never know that in advance.

If I ever end up in a crash like that I hoping it won't take 30 hours to find the airplane. It should be fairly easy to make sure you know with a certain range where the aircrash took place.

If the reports are right the crash took place around 600 miles of the coast of Natal.

For me it's unacceptable that it took 30 hours to find some debris, that should have been possible in a couple of hours not 30.

I don't know what the chances are of surviving a crash like that but I guess it should be possible that if the airplane does not fall out of mid-air that you can survive a crash like that (Hudson River? But eitherway it should not take 30 hours to find the airplane and another 20 hours for the boats to arrive.

What should have happend if like 40 people survived the initial crash but died in the ocean?

[Joe Hernandez]

I have red somewhere that the FAA and a Canadian company NAV Canada are working on a new GPS tracking system.

Let's hope that due to this crash it can be inplented and that airplanes in similar situation can be found earlier and the crash site can determined more acurate

[BadMan]

The more I read the reports about what happened. The more I think there were some major mess up's with the response time. It appears the plane did send out some sort of automatic three minute alert confirming a failure of of all systems that wasn't actually looked at until many hours later.

The airline industry needs better standards and better technology and I am guessing, better financing.

Regards,

BM


If the reports are right the crash took place around 600 miles of the coast of Natal.

For me it's unacceptable that it took 30 hours to find some debris, that should have been possible in a couple of hours not 30.

I don't know what the chances are of surviving a crash like that but I guess it should be possible that if the airplane does not fall out of mid-air that you can survive a crash like that (Hudson River? But eitherway it should not take 30 hours to find the airplane and another 20 hours for the boats to arrive.

[Joe Hernandez]

Hey BM,

I think that it's unacceptable that it took more then 30 hours to find the crashsite and probally more then 72 hours to recover some the debris.

I don't know if there have been cases of survivors of a ocean crash but it should not take 30 hours to arrive at the crash site.

The crashsite was just 600 miles from the Brazilian coast, that shouldnt be a big problem.

[Member #4112]

Man I hate to tell you this but flying low and slow enough to see anything on the ocean for 600 miles takes a little time and you are not taking into consideration they have to fly some sort of grid to either side of the direct line.

Let's face it, falling for 35,000 feet to the ocean isn't pretty and the reason the guy who ditched in the Hudson was such a big deal is because folks usually don't survive a crash in the first place.

Face it, these poor folks were dead when they hit the water so 3 hours or 30 hours didn't make any difference to them. Last reports were they are doubtful they will recover the back boxes from the crash even if they can locate them which is also doubtful.

[Joe Hernandez]

Man I hate to tell you this but flying low and slow enough to see anything on the ocean for 600 miles takes a little time and you are not taking into consideration they have to fly some sort of grid to either side of the direct line.

Let's face it, falling for 35,000 feet to the ocean isn't pretty and the reason the guy who ditched in the Hudson was such a big deal is because folks usually don't survive a crash in the first place.

Face it, these poor folks were dead when they hit the water so 3 hours or 30 hours didn't make any difference to them. Last reports were they are doubtful they will recover the back boxes from the crash even if they can locate them which is also doubtful.I still believe that if you can locate the airplane with GPS, radar, satalite or whatever you can find the crashsite within a couple of hours.

I already said that its unlikely that anyone survived the initial crash but even if the chances are slim every effort should have been made to atleast try to start a search and rescue mission or atleast the recovery of the black box. The last part definitly is more likely after 3 hours then it is after 30.

If you look at airline crashes you will know that in many huge crashes still people survive. In the Brazilian press for example they are using the example of a Japanese airline where 650 people died and 4 survived, you will never be sure untill you actually have found (parts) of the plane

[Member #4112]

It is my understanding from the news accounts, the flight regulations regarding checking in and verification by radar is pretty lax for flights of this type. Maybe they will change maybe not.

[Joe Hernandez]

Lets hope so!

Does everybody remember where a airline crashed into the sea and people who were sitting on the bench saved most (or all) passengers?

[Daddy Rulz]

Full Throttle,

If you or any other guys with an ATR read this please feel free to correct or expand.

I was reading where this plane has had a few failures with the sensors that tell the computer about the it's orientation in flight and angle of attack (among other things). There are supposed to be three of them so that if one sends faulty readings the computer can disregard it and not take un-nessicary corrective measures. Apperantly on a Quantes flight the computer acted on the faulty one and threw the plane into a dive and pretty much hambergerized the passengers.

"As The Sydney Morning Herald explained:

In October, a Qantas Airbus A330-300 from Singapore to Perth dropped twice from a height of 37,000 feet, injuring 74 passengers.

The plunges — lasting 20 seconds and 16 seconds — sent passengers slamming into the cabin's ceiling and walls, causing serious injury in 14 people who were treated for broken bones, concussion and lacerations. The plane made an emergency landing at Learmonth air force base, north of Perth.

Air transport investigators said the incident was caused by a faulty computer component that sent "erratic and erroneous information" to the plane's flight control system. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau's director of aviation safety investigation, Julian Walsh, said analysis of flight data had revealed that the plane's air data inertial reference unit — the device responsible for supplying data on air pressure, temperature and acceleration — had failed.

As a result, wrong data was sent to the flight control system, which has a key role in flying the aircraft, even with pilots in control."

I really hope this wasn't due to a company (Airbus / AF) not replacing faulty parts due to cost.

As far as quickly locating a downed plane it's a big fucking ocean. Once a private plane crashed due to pilot error in fog at the Austin airport when I worked there. They couldn't find that fucker for hours and it was inside the fence. Over land (with out fog) it's not so hard but over ocean when there is no fire, no smoke, and 99% of the wreckage is underwater, with millions of square miles to search it will always take forever.

Sending out GPS signals sort of assumes that the GPS generator will survive the flight, sending out constant signals would be a lot of signals. Who tracks them over the ocean in international waters? I guess you could make a requirement that the operating company do it, that probably wouldn't be all that hard.

Again it's sad for the families but this is part of air travel. We do it so often that we kind of forget how fragil the bubble is at 30k feet moving at 400 mph in an aluminum tube made out of metal thinner than the steel in your car. As long as everything is cool great, but when shit fucks up, unless you have an Al Haynes on board and catch a WHOLE lot of luck, you're just pretty much fucked.

[Joe Hernandez]

Did anybody hear about a possible bomb-thread on a flight from Air France from BA to Paris a couple of days earlier?

Did the crashed airplane also fly from BA?

[Joe Hernandez]

Full Throttle if you or any other guys with an ATR read this please feel free to correct or expand.

I was reading where this plane has had a few failures with the sensors that tell the computer about the it's orientation in flight and angle of attack (among other things) There are supposed to be three of them so that if one sends faulty readings the computer can disregard it and not take un-nessicary corrective measures. Apperantly on a Quantes flight the computer acted on the faulty one and threw the plane into a dive and pretty much hambergerized the passengers.

"As The Sydney Morning Herald explained:

In October, a Qantas Airbus A330-300 from Singapore to Perth dropped twice from a height of 37,000 feet, injuring 74 passengers.

The plunges — lasting 20 seconds and 16 seconds — sent passengers slamming into the cabin's ceiling and walls, causing serious injury in 14 people who were treated for broken bones, concussion and lacerations. The plane made an emergency landing at Learmonth air force base, north of Perth.

Air transport investigators said the incident was caused by a faulty computer component that sent "erratic and erroneous information" to the plane's flight control system. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau's director of aviation safety investigation, Julian Walsh, said analysis of flight data had revealed that the plane's air data inertial reference unit — the device responsible for supplying data on air pressure, temperature and acceleration — had failed.

As a result, wrong data was sent to the flight control system, which has a key role in flying the aircraft, even with pilots in control."

I really hope this wasn't due to a company (Airbus / AF) not replacing faulty parts due to cost.

As far as quickly locating a downed plane it's a big fucking ocean. Once a private plane crashed due to pilot error in fog at the Austin airport when I worked there. They couldn't find that fucker for hours and it was inside the fence. Over land (with out fog) it's not so hard but over ocean when there is no fire, no smoke, and 99% of the wreckage is underwater, with millions of square miles to search it will always take forever.

Sending out GPS signals sort of assumes that the GPS generator will survive the flight, sending out constant signals would be a lot of signals. Who tracks them over the ocean in international waters? I guess you could make a requirement that the operating company do it, that probably wouldn't be all that hard.

Again it's sad for the families but this is part of air travel. We do it so often that we kind of forget how fragil the bubble is at 30k feet moving at 400 mph in an aluminum tube made out of metal thinner than the steel in your car. As long as everything is cool great, but when shit fucks up, unless you have an Al Haynes on board and catch a WHOLE lot of luck, you're just pretty much fucked.That's why I said it should be a stand alone solution, it give you a better option to track the airplane once it crashes and if it is not part of the electronic system I would think that it can't send wrong signals

[MataHari]

I would be curious to find out how much resources are being mobilised per head to find the bodies. I wouldnt be surprised the amount would reach at least half the financial compensation the families can expect, if not more. An armada of planes, submarines, boats, robots for the equivalent of a lost bomb over an afghan village.

Let them rest in peace, they couldnt dream of a more tranquil place to sleep forever.

[Kleinberg]

Did anybody hear about a possible bomb-thread on a flight from Air France from BA to Paris a couple of days earlier?

Did the crashed airplane also fly from BA?AF flights from EZE ara B777

[Kleinberg]

I wouldnt be surprised the amount would reach at least half the financial compensation the families can expect, if not more. An armada of planes, submarines, boats, robots for the equivalent of a lost bomb over an afghan village.As for US army, what ever happened our planes, our subs, our robot would have been doing something, sad to say that but it is only a great scale training for the french and the brasilian army.