View Full Version : Racial Question
I have been recently offered a pretty good job in Argentina and I have a couple of questions. Are there any black people in Argentina? If so, how are they treated? I'm guessing I would be middle-upper class if I went there, so how do you imagine I would be treated?
Thanks for all of your responses.
You would be treated fine in BA.
You would be treated splendidly in Cordoba or Mendoza.Why the special treatment in Cordoba and Mendoza?
Member #3320
06-18-09, 21:30
Why the special treatment in Cordoba and Mendoza?I will send you a PM to explain the answer.
NewOrleans
06-19-09, 00:37
First let me admitt that I don't live in BA. However, in the last 3 years I have vistited 6 times and spent as much as 40 days at a time. I rented an apartment in the Recoletta and have never had a problem. I am black and have come with numerous black friends. We all love it, and are considering buying a place. Now I can't say that Argies aren't racist in there hearts, but when there no one ever seems to have a problem. I am constantly told that Argies are racist and they probably say things behind my back, but I have have any problems and would not hesitate moving if I had job offer which offered a substantial salary in BA. I have considered moving even without a job.
Member #3320
06-19-09, 00:58
First let me admitt that I don't live in BA. However, in the last 3 years I have vistited 6 times and spent as much as 40 days at a time. I rented an apartment in the Ricoletta and have never had a problem. I am black and have come with numerous black friends. We all love it, and are considering buying a place. Now I can't say that Argies aren't racist in there hearts, but when there no one ever seems to have a problem. I am constantly told that Argies are racist and they probably say things behind my back, but I have have any problems and would not hesitate moving if I had job offer which offered a substantial salary in BA. I have considered moving even without a job.I agree with you 100% on this.
I have absolutely similar views.
Joe Hernandez
06-19-09, 16:39
99% of RD girls in BA are hookers and they will treated for what they are, I have no doubt they are treated very badly.
Every Argentine girl however wants to fuck a black guy, so you should get some results.
Every Argentine girl however wants to fuck a black guy, so you should get some results.I know for a fact that's not true.
I know for a fact that's not true.What do you expect from Redondo?
How are Argentinians feelings towards middle easterners?
I feel I may have something to contribute to this discussion, particularly after the last couple of weeks and a particularly ugly event last night (which admittedly is pretty rare here.
First, you guys who come down here to visit have to realize something. The people that you interact with as tourists (even on fairly long or repeated stays) as Sidney mentions, are people that you will usually pay for one thing or another. Not all, you will bump into people on the street, in a store, etc. But money is a VERY important commodity here for people who work hard for a living, is very hard to come by for most, and as Sidney, Argento and myself have mentioned, many of those on the lower rungs of society here will go to great lengths to get as much of that money as they can. Even to tolerating people that they may think of as beneath them in one way or another.
And by the way - if you don't speak good Spanish and don't interact with a wide variety of locals in a wide variety of situations, you will probably never see what a lot of us see here.
And I should also preface that I AM NOT TALKING about ALL Argentinos. I am talking about a large enough percentage that life can be made uncomfortable at times.
But talking straight to racism, one has to ask oneself, "what exactly is racism?" We had a discussion about that last night after the afore-mentioned ugly incident (more about the particulars in a moment) Is racism where one says, for example, "you are a member of race X and therefore we think you're subhuman and will treat you like shit" or "you are not a member of my country and therefore even though we half-assed recognize that you are human, we spit on anyone not of our nationality."
Under the strictest sense, the second attitude may not be racism, but I submit that the end result is practically the same.
My wife and I brought her younger sister (she's thirteen) to Argentina from Paraguay to go to school. She's a very smart, very serious young lady and we felt that she deserved a chance to come here and study because the schools here are much better than Paraguay.
You have to understand - in Paraguay the teachers are so ignorant they tell their students things like mermaids are real (Paraguay doesn't actually border any ocean, so most of them have no idea what the ocean even looks like) and that when we get too populated on Earth, we can pick up and move to Mars because there is air and plants and trees. (I am not even exaggerating here)
So the young lady in question actually has one of the best grade point averages in this school (it's a private school) She studies her ass off every day and gives it her absolute best effort. She has a few friends there and she gets along very well with them.
But the other kids give her a hard time all the time. A boy comes up to her, for example, and asks to be her boyfriend (she really is a very, very pretty young lady) She tells him very nicely that she is here to study, she doesn't have time for a boyfriend, and besides, she is too young to date.
Well, the young "gentleman" promptly tells her "that's ok anyway, because my mom and dad tell me that Paraguayans are filthy and all of their women are whores with rotten pussies." Yeah. No exaggeration. Or many of her female schoolmates say "yeah, you wouldn't want to date, so many Paraguayans are homosexuals anyway. You are obviously lesbian."
One of her female classmates notes that she is doing well in school and always has her homework finished and ready to turn in on time. So this classmate asks her if she can copy her work. The young lady responds "no, that's not fair - I worked really hard to get this done, and I also don't want to get in trouble." At which point the Argentina senorita says "you dirty Paraguayans are good for nothing except working in our homes and doing the dirty work here in Argentina."
Wow. I'm telling the absolute truth here. I get stories like this from her at least once a week. Are all of her classmates bad? No way. As I said, she does have some friends, and I've met some of them, and they seem like very good kids.
I've written elsewhere about the treatment that my wife (a Paraguayan, obviously) has gotten around here. I even had a disagreement with Argento about the extent to which what we experience is racism versus just bad upbringing and general bad manners. Well, I am shifting my opinion back towards racism again.
Now, as for last night.
A group of us ex-pats (whom I shall not name, but are welcome to chime in on their own if they feel so inclined) went to dinner at a very nice place called Palacio Espaņo. It is about 3 blocks from Cafe Iberia, so we went to the cafe afterward for some coffee and to check out the chicas.
We went upstairs, sat down at two different places because the area wasn't so big and it was somewhat crowded. Two of the guys sat with me on two love-seat sized sofas while two other guys were at a table on the other side of the smallish room. It was noisy.
After a few moments of conversation, a crew-cut, semi burly (one buddy called him wirey, but I think was a bit bigger than that) guy at a table alongside our sofas, turns and says "hey, you are talking so loud in English I can't hear myself think. Can you shut up?" He said it in Spanish. I understood but the guy sitting next to me didn't, so he tried to understand what the guy was saying. I have say at this point, that my Spanish is pretty good, but this guy had a really thick accent (I don't think he was Porteņo, he sounded like he may have been from Cordoba, which has a VERY different accent) He may have also had a few too many to drink, or snorted a bit too much as well.
Well, we really didn't really want to cause a problem. We weren't talking any louder than anyone else, but we did try to be quieter. Of course, this yammerhead was talking so loud to the woman he was with that it was almost impossible for us to actually hear ourselves talk, although I could think just fine.
After about 15 minutes, this yahoo turns around again and starts talking to us. He has a very loud voice, very gruff, like he had been eating cigarette ashes for most of his adult life. He actually looks very much like a typical rugby player. This time when he talks, I'm having a very hard time understanding him because of his accent and he needs to repeat himself, tries to talk in English, etc. I finally understand him as I get somewhat used to his accent and see where he's going with his conversation.
He keeps pointing to a little ribbon on his shirt in the striped sky-blue and white colors of Argentina. He says "Mi Patria. Eso es mi Patria." My homeland, this is my homeland. He goes on to say that he is in his house. That we are in his house. I understand what he is saying, and at this point didn't really think anything bad of what he is saying because it certainly wasn't ugly.
Then he goes on to say that the US is shit. He says that we are murderers and that we think we are the best in the world and that we have no business being in his homeland, in his house.
At this point, I was not exactly sure everything he was saying because it turned so ugly so quickly. I am asking for clarification and he must think I don't speak Spanish, because he tries to switch to English. Not very good Enlgish and I have a tougher time understanding what he is saying.
Then his woman stands up and approaches us. She says in reasonable English "you are Americans and your country invades other countries at will and murders innocent people. We never do anything like that. We hate you Americans and want you out of our country. Yankee go home." Seriously.
At this point, I have to admit to being quite angry. You have to understand that we have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to encourage any kind of behavior of this type. I am a patron of this place and am trying to enjoy good conversation and decent coffe (although a little expensive there) and this jackass and his woman (not very good looking, chunky, short bobbed hair and a sneer for a smile) are really spoiling it by insulting me for no reason.
I stand up at this point, because I just don't have to take abuse like this. As far as I'm concerned when a supposed "host" (in relation to me being in his country, in his "house") acts like this, he is no longer a host but an asshole who doesn't deserve politeness.
I never once attacked his country (though ammunition abounds - just look at some of the beautiful architecture near Iberia, and then see the graffiti that is spary painted all over these buildings, scant blocks from their legislative house, for god's sake. I simply said to him and his woman that they were impolite, rude jerks, don't have he slightest idea of how to play host to a guest from another country, and could kiss my ass (literally nothing more than that) But know - I said this only after about ten minutes of harranging by this guy. I'm not very quick to be impolite.
By now, everyone in Iberia is looking at us. They are all laughing and maybe I was feeling self-concious due to the nature of the argument, but it felt like they were siding with the other guy and basically enjoying the browbeating that the Americans were getting.
After calling them both rude jackasses and telling them they could kiss my ass, I sat down and tried to ignore them. But yahoo kept shouting at us to go home, to get out of his country. I finally asked the waiter to come over so I could pay and leave - it was obvious this asswipe wasn't going to stop.
When the waiter comes over, this guy grabs him and starts telling him that they need to kick us out and never let Americans in again. When the waiter bent over the table between the sofas to give me the bill, I asked him if this guy comes in a lot and the waiter says he'd never seen him before.
But what gets me in all of this - none of the waiters, nor any of the patrons of the place tried to interfere to ask this guy, their fellow country man, to stop making an ass out of himself and by association, all of them. I did get a shame-faced apology from the waiter, but the guys working downstairs were all staring at us with stern expressions on their face as I walked out the door, as if the whole thing were our fault.
Here, you may not encounter prejudice because you are black specifically, although I think that on the level of working here and being here every day it's possible you may encounter a little more than I do. But you will definitely encounter racism in the forms that I have shown above. Even if you wouldn't call it racism, it is ugly and it abounds here in Buenos Aires at least.
Although I have been to Cordoba and spent a little bit of time there - the people are indeed more laid back and don't think quite so much of themselves.
I actually, mostly, enjoy living here. MOST of the people that I interact with on a regular basis are good people and I don't have many problems. There are good people here, for sure. Not every person is here is going to try to take you for whatever they can get, although there is a MUCH higher percentage than I have enountered than in just about any other place in the world I have traveled to (on business, not for pleasure) rivaling or even exceeding places like India, Angola and the Ivory Coast.
I am a very open-minded individual. In fact, I give EVERYONE I meet, no matter their nationality, race, religion, etc, an even chance to interact with me as a human being. I don't agree with many of the US policies of the last 8 years (and longer) nor do I agree with most of the policies in the new administration. I have had calm, rational discussions with a variety of Argentinos regarding US policy and I can understand some of what most of them think and feel, and none of the polite ones think of me as a murderer by association.
And maybe racism isn't the right word. Maybe it should be prejudice and / or discrimination (which is are ugly components of racism anyway) To me, the result is the same.
There is a much larger percentage of whatever you want to call it here, in Argentina, than in most places I've ever been. And that includes about 30 years of living in Texas. There is racism, prejudice, etc, in every place you will go, but in this modern day, it is mostly kept in check when out in the light. Here, it is barely held in check most of the time and it escapes fairly often.
So, as a black person, I really don't think you would face much more prejudice than the rest of us here to tell the truth. But you should know that it will happen, and working for an Argentino company directly could be very interesting, it just depends on the company and where their roots come from.
For example, the owners of the house we rent - the woman is a vice president for IBM in South America. She is one of the nicest, most helpful people I have ever known. (She's absolutely gorgeous too, a true MILF in every respect of the word)
The "patrona" (woman boss, or patron) of a maid we know here, whose husband is a landowner and owns several large farms somewhere in the province of Buenos Aires, is a complete ***** who treats the maid poorly, talks bad about Paraguayans to her maid's face, and talks about us foreigners in a bad light all of the time.
There are all kinds here and you just have to be prepared to understand (not necessarily respect) their culture and learn to deal with it.
TejanoLibre
06-19-09, 19:17
Every Argentine girl however wants to fuck a black guy, so you should get some results.We have gone back and forth with this several times now and I think I can explain it corectly.
1. WHITE Argentines:
Are racist against EVERYONE but mainly against the indigenous types.
South American Indians receive MOST of their racism. (Indios)
Blacks are more of a curiosity so they are treated better. (Negros)
Those two terms are interchangeable but ¨Mi Negro¨ is an affectionate term.
¨ Mi Indio ¨is not affectionate!
There are VERY few Blacks of any kind.
The population density in Buenos Aires proper was 13,680 inhabitants per square kilometer (34,800 per mi2) but only about 2,400 per km2 (6,100 per mi2) in the suburbs. The racial makeup of the city is 88.9% White, 7% Mestizo, 2.1% Asian and 2% Black.[8]
2. Indigenous Argentines and surrounding countries :
The ¨Indios¨ are mistreated and discriminated by eyeryone down here.
Paraguayans , Bolivians , Peruvians , etc. are really mistreated .
The White Argies hate everybody but you will be successful with certain girls.
There are no Black males except for a very few Black Columbians, Dominicans, Brazilians, Cubans, etc, etc.
There are more Black females than males.
The majority of the women are working girls.
Argi males may be racist but they like Black females!
The same goes for the females.
The rest is up to you.
I can only say that this place has to be better than ANY place in the USA so If they are offering you a job in BA that pays o. K then you should hop on the plane and get on down here!
TL
My two cents.
Don't worry about it, you'll see for yourself when you get here. 90% of what is being posted below is complete horse shit.
Most of this has alot to do with social structure and class. Something none of the posters on this board know about. They are all mainly outcasts as far as social strata goes.
As a short term tourist, you will be treated as such. No need worrying about things that will never affect you.
Regards,
BM
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Btw. Holy shit Queso.
That's a Loooong post my friend.
Lol
My two cents.
Don't worry about it, you'll see for yourself when you get here. 90% of what is being posted below is complete horse shit.
Most of this has alot to do with social structure and class. Something none of the posters on this board know about. They are all mainly outcasts as far as social strata goes.Dude, I know you have lived here as long as I have, but I can't agree with you that 90% of the below is bullshit. My own personal experiences, and those of people we both know, say otherwise. However, I do say that it is often overstated significantly. Everyone does not act like this, all of the time.
As a short term tourist, you will be treated as such. No need worrying about things that will never affect you.I agree with you too. However, he's not talking about coming down here as a short term toursit, and I think anyone talking about moving down here needs to understand what it feels like, on a daily basis, to live here. I know MANY people from the States who couldn't live here a month. In fact, I know Exon can take it for about a week!
Btw. Holy shit Queso.
That's a Loooong post my friend.Yeah I know. The problem is, it only took me about 5 minutes to write it - I type FAST. And I had a lot to say. Things that really bother me, particularly when so many people don't understand fundamentally what it means to make such a committment (not just come down here for pussy and a good time) and give advice to someone who is thinking about moving down here, but are only tourists themselves.
I've seen longer posts talking about pussy;) This is just as important to some whom it may impact.
Joe Hernandez
06-19-09, 20:52
I know for a fact that's not true.Almost everyone then.
Member #3320
06-19-09, 21:23
My two cents.
Don't worry about it, you'll see for yourself when you get here. 90% of what is being posted below is complete horse shit.
Most of this has alot to do with social structure and class. Something none of the posters on this board know about. They are all mainly outcasts as far as social strata goes.
As a short term tourist, you will be treated as such. No need worrying about things that will never affect you.
Regards,
BM.
We have gone back and forth with this several times now and I think I can explain it corectly.
1. WHITE Argentines:
Are racist against EVERYONE but mainly against the indigenous types.
South American Indians receive MOST of their racism. (Indios)
Blacks are more of a curiosity so they are treated better. (Negros)
Those two terms are interchangeable but ¨Mi Negro¨ is an affectionate term.
¨ Mi Indio ¨is not affectionate!
There are VERY few Blacks of any kind.
The population density in Buenos Aires proper was 13,680 inhabitants per square kilometer (34,800 per mi2) but only about 2,400 per km2 (6,100 per mi2) in the suburbs. The racial makeup of the city is 88.9% White, 7% Mestizo, 2.1% Asian and 2% Black.[8]
2. Indigenous Argentines and surrounding countries:
The ¨Indios¨ are mistreated and discriminated by eyeryone down here.
Paraguayans, Bolivians, Peruvians, etc. Are really mistreated.
The White Argies hate everybody but you will be successful with certain girls.
There are no Black males except for a very few Black Columbians, Dominicans, Brazilians, Cubans, etc, etc.
There are more Black females than males.
The majority of the women are working girls.
Argi males may be racist but they like Black females!
The same goes for the females.
The rest is up to you.
I can only say that this place has to be better than ANY place in the USA so If they are offering you a job in BA that pays o. K then you should hop on the plane and get on down here!
TLExcellent posts by TL & BM. Absolutely pertinent to the original query.
Thanks for a excellent insight to the matter. From what I figure out, your answers are absolutely true.
I would say to the person who put the query in the first place, come here and take on the employment offered. Don't fret. Don't be scared.
I feel I may have something to contribute to this discussion, particularly after the last couple of weeks and a particularly ugly event last night (which admittedly is pretty rare here.
First, you guys who come down here to visit have to realize something. The people that you interact with as tourists (even on fairly long or repeated stays) as Sidney mentions, are people that you will usually pay for one thing or another. Not all, you will bump into people on the street, in a store, etc. But money is a VERY important commodity here for people who work hard for a living, is very hard to come by for most, and as Sidney, Argento and myself have mentioned, many of those on the lower rungs of society here will go to great lengths to get as much of that money as they can. Even to tolerating people that they may think of as beneath them in one way or another.
And by the way - if you don't speak good Spanish and interact with a wide variety of locals in a wide variety of situations, you will probably never see what a lot of us see here.
And I should also preface that I AM NOT TALKING about ALL Argentinos. I am talking about a large enough percentage that life can be made uncomfortable at times.
But talking straight to racism, one has to ask oneself, "what exactly is racism?" We had a discussion about that last night after the afore-mentioned ugly incident (more about the particulars in a moment) Is racism where one says, for example, "you are a member of race X and therefore we think you're subhuman and will treat you like shit" or "you are not a member of my country and therefore even though we half-assed recognize that you are human, we spit on anyone not of our nationality."
Under the strictest sense, the second attitude may not be racism, but I submit that the end result is practically the same.
My wife and I brought her younger sister (she's thirteen) to Argentina from Paraguay to go to school. She's a very smart, very serious young lady and we felt that she deserved a chance to come here and study because the schools here are much better than Paraguay.
You have to understand - in Paraguay the teachers are so ignorant they tell their students things like mermaids are real (Paraguay doesn't actually border any ocean, so most of them have no idea what the ocean even looks like) and that when we get too populated on Earth, we can pick up and move to Mars because there is air and plants and trees. (I am not even exaggerating here)
So the young lady in question actually has one of the best grade point averages in this school (it's a private school) She studies her ass off every day and gives it her absolute best effort. She has a few friends there and she gets along very well with them.
But the other kids give her a hard time all the time. A boy comes up to her, for example, and asks to be her boyfriend (she really is a very, very pretty young lady) She tells him very nicely that she is here to study, she doesn't have time for a boyfriend, and besides, she is too young to date.
Well, the young "gentleman" promptly tells her "that's ok anyway, because my mom and dad tell me that Paraguayans are filthy and all of their women are whores with rotten pussies." Yeah. No exaggeration. Or many of her female schoolmates say "yeah, you wouldn't want to date, so many Paraguayans are homosexuals anyway. You are obviously lesbian."
One of her female classmates notes that she is doing well in school and always has her homework finished and ready to turn in on time. So this classmate asks her if she can copy her work. The young lady responds "no, that's not fair - I worked really hard to get this done, and I also don't want to get in trouble." At which point the Argentina senorita says "you dirty Paraguayans are good for nothing except working in our homes and doing the dirty work here in Argentina."
Wow. I'm telling the absolute truth here. I get stories like this from her at least once a week. Are all of her classmates bad? No way. As I said, she does have some friends, and I've met some of them, and they seem like very good kids.
I've written elsewhere about the treatment that my wife (a Paraguayan, obviously) has gotten around here. I even had a disagreement with Argento about the extent to which what we experience is racism versus just bad upbringing and general bad manners. Well, I am shifting my opinion back towards racism again.
Now, as for last night.
A group of us ex-pats (whom I shall not name, but are welcome to chime in on their own if they feel so inclined) went to dinner at a very nice place called Palacio Espaņo. It is about 3 blocks from Cafe Iberia, so we went to the cafe afterward for some coffee and to check out the chicas.
We went upstairs, sat down at two different places because the area wasn't so big and it was somewhat crowded. Two of the guys sat with me on two love-seat sized sofas while two other guys were at a table on the other side of the smallish room. It was noisy.
After a few moments of conversation, a crew-cut, semi burly (one buddy called him wirey, but I think was a bit bigger than that) guy at a table alongside our sofas, turns and says "hey, you are talking so loud in English I can't hear myself think. Can you shut up?" He said it in Spanish. I understood but the guy sitting next to me didn't, so he tried to understand what the guy was saying. I have say at this point, that my Spanish is pretty good, but this guy had a really thick accent (I don't think he was Porteņo, he sounded like he may have been from Cordoba, which has a VERY different accent) He may have also had a few too many to drink, or snorted a bit too much as well.
Well, we really didn't really want to cause a problem. We weren't talking any louder than anyone else, but we did try to be quieter. Of course, this yammerhead was talking so loud to the woman he was with that it was almost impossible for us to actually hear ourselves talk, although I could think just fine.
After about 15 minutes, this yahoo turns around again and starts talking to us. He has a very loud voice, very gruff, like he had been eating cigarette ashes for most of his adult life. He actually looks very much like a typical rugby player. This time when he talks, I'm having a very hard time understanding him because of his accent and he needs to repeat himself, tries to talk in English, etc. I finally understand him as I get somewhat used to his accent and see where he's going with his conversation.
He keeps pointing to a little ribbon on his shirt in the striped sky-blue and white colors of Argentina. He says "Mi Patria. Eso es mi Patria." My homeland, this is my homeland. He goes on to say that he is in his house. That we are in his house. I understand what he is saying, and at this point didn't really think anything bad of what he is saying because it certainly wasn't ugly.
Then he goes on to say that the US is shit. He says that we are murderers and that we think we are the best in the world and that we have no business being in his homeland, in his house.
At this point, I was not exactly sure everything he was saying because it turned so ugly so quickly. I am asking for clarification and he must think I don't speak Spanish, because he tries to switch to English. Not very good Enlgish and I have a tougher time understanding what he is saying.
Then his woman stands up and approaches us. She says in reasonable English "you are Americans and your country invades other countries at will and murders innocent people. We never do anything like that. We hate you Americans and want you out of our country. Yankee go home." Seriously.
At this point, I have to admit to being quite angry. You have to understand that we have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to encourage any kind of behavior of this type. I am a patron of this place and am trying to enjoy good conversation and decent coffe (although a little expensive there) and this jackass and his woman (not very good looking, chunky, short bobbed hair and a sneer for a smile) are really spoiling it by insulting me for no reason.
I stand up at this point, because I just don't have to take abuse like this. As far as I'm concerned when a supposed "host" (in relation to me being in his country, in his "house") acts like this, he is no longer a host but an asshole who doesn't deserve politeness.
I never once attacked his country (though ammunition abounds - just look at some of the beautiful architecture near Iberia, and then see the graffiti that is spary painted all over these buildings, scant blocks from their legislative house, for god's sake. I simply said to him and his woman that they were impolite, rude jerks, don't have he slightest idea of how to play host to a guest from another country, and could kiss my ass (literally nothing more than that) But know - I said this only after about ten minutes of harranging by this guy. I'm not very quick to be impolite.
By now, everyone in Iberia is looking at us. They are all laughing and maybe I was feeling self-concious due to the nature of the argument, but it felt like they were siding with the other guy and basically enjoying the browbeating that the Americans were getting.
After calling them both rude jackasses and telling them they could kiss my ass, I sat down and tried to ignore them. But yahoo kept shouting at us to go home, to get out of his country. I finally asked the waiter to come over so I could pay and leave - it was obvious this asswipe wasn't going to stop.
When the waiter comes over, this guy grabs him and starts telling him that they need to kick us out and never let Americans in again. When the waiter bent over the table between the sofas to give me the bill, I asked him if this guy comes in a lot and the waiter says he'd never seen him before.
But what gets me in all of this - none of the waiters, nor any of the patrons of the place tried to interfere to ask this guy, their fellow country man, to stop making an ass out of himself and by association, all of them. I did get a shame-faced apology from the waiter, but the guys working downstairs were all staring at us with stern expressions on their face as I walked out the door, as if the whole thing were our fault.
Here, you may not encounter prejudice because you are black specifically, although I think that on the level of working here and being here every day it's possible you may encounter a little more than I do. But you will definitely encounter racism in the forms that I have shown above. Even if you wouldn't call it racism, it is ugly and it abounds here in Buenos Aires at least.
Although I have been to Cordoba and spent a little bit of time there - the people are indeed more laid back and don't think quite so much of themselves.
I actually, mostly, enjoy living here. MOST of the people that I interact with on a regular basis are good people and I don't have many problems. There are good people here, for sure. Not every person is here is going to try to take you for whatever they can get, although there is a MUCH higher percentage than I have enountered than in just about any other place in the world I have traveled to (on business, not for pleasure) rivaling or even exceeding places like India, Angola and the Ivory Coast.
I am a very open-minded individual. In fact, I give EVERYONE I meet, no matter their nationality, race, religion, etc, an even chance to interact with me as a human being. I don't agree with many of the US policies of the last 8 years (and longer) nor do I agree with most of the policies in the new administration. I have had calm, rational discussions with a variety of Argentinos regarding US policy and I can understand some of what most of them think and feel, and none of the polite ones think of me as a murderer by association.
And maybe racism isn't the right word. Maybe it should be prejudice and / or discrimination (which is are ugly components of racism anyway) To me, the result is the same.
There is a much larger percentage of whatever you want to call it here, in Argentina, than in most places I've ever been. And that includes about 30 years of living in Texas. There is racism, prejudice, etc, in every place you will go, but in this modern day, it is mostly kept in check when out in the light. Here, it is barely held in check most of the time and it escapes fairly often.
So, as a black person, I really don't think you would face much more prejudice than the rest of us here to tell the truth. But you should know that it will happen, and working for an Argentino company directly could be very interesting, it just depends on the company and where their roots come from.
For example, the owners of the house we rent - the woman is a vice president for IBM in South America. She is one of the nicest, most helpful people I have ever known. (She's absolutely gorgeous too, a true MILF in every respect of the word)
The "patrona" (woman boss, or patron) of a maid we know here, whose husband is a landowner and owns several large farms somewhere in the province of Buenos Aires, is a complete ***** who treats the maid poorly, talks bad about Paraguayans to her maid's face, and talks about us foreigners in a bad light all of the time.
There are all kinds here and you just have to be prepared to understand (not necessarily respect) their culture and learn to deal with it.So what else is new?
I am very sorry that something like that happened and the schmuck at the resturant is just that a schmuck. But the global perception and fact that we Americans have since WW2 taken advantage of our position in the world without doing a really good job in our own economy and politics is starting to bite us in the ass. I have seen this and had this happen in as varied places as taiwan, brazil, argentina, and Mexico. The point is we as one of the most powerful nations in the world. When our govt act irresponsably either fiscal or political or militarily (we will pay for the second Bush invasion many ways for many years) there are times the world will show their anger at who they can. Us the american people. They certainly can not vent on our military. If any other country in the world had let their financial system get into so much debt the FMI and the US would have forced them to stop overspending. We on the other hand are going to do fix it by spending more. Anyway I know I went off a little sorry
Greetings El Queso, et al,
Finally, somebody has actually met the guy that some members have been referring to when they repeatedly state their opinion that "Americans are hated all over the world".
I've been waiting for 6 years to meet this guy! Of course it's more difficult for me because I don't hang around with "skulls full of mush" college students and their "can't get a job in the real world" leftist professors.
BTW, did you get his name and telephone number? Perhaps we should invite him to the 2009-2010 New Year's Eve party? It might make for some interesting entertainment.
Thanks,
Jackson
After a few moments of conversation, a crew-cut, semi burly (one buddy called him wirey, but I think was a bit bigger than that) guy at a table alongside our sofas, turns and says "hey, you are talking so loud in English I can't hear myself think. Can you shut up?" He said it in Spanish. I understood but the guy sitting next to me didn't, so he tried to understand what the guy was saying. I have say at this point, that my Spanish is pretty good, but this guy had a really thick accent (I don't think he was Porteņo, he sounded like he may have been from Cordoba, which has a VERY different accent) He may have also had a few too many to drink, or snorted a bit too much as well.
Well, we really didn't really want to cause a problem. We weren't talking any louder than anyone else, but we did try to be quieter. Of course, this yammerhead was talking so loud to the woman he was with that it was almost impossible for us to actually hear ourselves talk, although I could think just fine.
After about 15 minutes, this yahoo turns around again and starts talking to us. He has a very loud voice, very gruff, like he had been eating cigarette ashes for most of his adult life. He actually looks very much like a typical rugby player. This time when he talks, I'm having a very hard time understanding him because of his accent and he needs to repeat himself, tries to talk in English, etc. I finally understand him as I get somewhat used to his accent and see where he's going with his conversation.
He keeps pointing to a little ribbon on his shirt in the striped sky-blue and white colors of Argentina. He says "Mi Patria. Eso es mi Patria." My homeland, this is my homeland. He goes on to say that he is in his house. That we are in his house. I understand what he is saying, and at this point didn't really think anything bad of what he is saying because it certainly wasn't ugly.
Then he goes on to say that the US is shit. He says that we are murderers and that we think we are the best in the world and that we have no business being in his homeland, in his house.
At this point, I was not exactly sure everything he was saying because it turned so ugly so quickly. I am asking for clarification and he must think I don't speak Spanish, because he tries to switch to English. Not very good Enlgish and I have a tougher time understanding what he is saying.
Then his woman stands up and approaches us. She says in reasonable English "you are Americans and your country invades other countries at will and murders innocent people. We never do anything like that. We hate you Americans and want you out of our country. Yankee go home." Seriously.
At this point, I have to admit to being quite angry. You have to understand that we have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to encourage any kind of behavior of this type. I am a patron of this place and am trying to enjoy good conversation and decent coffe (although a little expensive there) and this jackass and his woman (not very good looking, chunky, short bobbed hair and a sneer for a smile) are really spoiling it by insulting me for no reason.
I stand up at this point, because I just don't have to take abuse like this. As far as I'm concerned when a supposed "host" (in relation to me being in his country, in his "house") acts like this, he is no longer a host but an asshole who doesn't deserve politeness.
I never once attacked his country (though ammunition abounds - just look at some of the beautiful architecture near Iberia, and then see the graffiti that is spary painted all over these buildings, scant blocks from their legislative house, for god's sake. I simply said to him and his woman that they were impolite, rude jerks, don't have he slightest idea of how to play host to a guest from another country, and could kiss my ass (literally nothing more than that) But know - I said this only after about ten minutes of harranging by this guy. I'm not very quick to be impolite.
By now, everyone in Iberia is looking at us. They are all laughing and maybe I was feeling self-concious due to the nature of the argument, but it felt like they were siding with the other guy and basically enjoying the browbeating that the Americans were getting.
After calling them both rude jackasses and telling them they could kiss my ass, I sat down and tried to ignore them. But yahoo kept shouting at us to go home, to get out of his country. I finally asked the waiter to come over so I could pay and leave - it was obvious this asswipe wasn't going to stop.
When the waiter comes over, this guy grabs him and starts telling him that they need to kick us out and never let Americans in again. When the waiter bent over the table between the sofas to give me the bill, I asked him if this guy comes in a lot and the waiter says he'd never seen him before.
BTW, did you get his name and telephone number? Perhaps we should invite him to the 2009-2010 New Year's Eve party? It might make for some interesting entertainment.Remember the rocket that got stuck in the ground and blew up practically in our faces (I think Seaman has a funny video of that one! We could have a repeat and make sure this ape is standing too close to it. Or like the Jackass 1 movie, stick it in his ass too deep to fly!
I have encountered a bit of anti-Americanism here, but not very much really, most of it good-natured discussion with cabbies or other locals who liked to beat on Bush with a genuine American, not someone who was looking to kick us out of his country.
I've heard Argentinos talk about EVERY country (that they talk about) in a bad light.
Daddy Rulz
06-23-09, 15:37
Greetings El Queso, et al,
Finally, somebody has actually met the guy that some members have been referring to when they repeatedly state their opinion that "Americans are hated all over the world".I've never said that Americans were hated, the policies of the previous administration (not trying to get something going just talking about my perception of the attitudes of others) were hated in a lot of places. I think for the majority us Americans are just people from a country they have a hard time understanding, as a matter of fact I think people from most other countries do a better job of seperating us from the policies of our country than we do of them.
With all the time I've spent in other countries I've only ever heard "fucking yanquis" once. Unless of course they were talking about the greatest baseball team in the history of the sport.
Just my opinion.
I must say I have been treated very well in buenos aires. Even the waiters are friendly this time around.
I have had many local people offer to help me in numerous ways and would not accept a penny for their help.
Porteņos live a stressed out life just like americans or europeans. It is not in their blood to be overly humble. They are just like any other western person.
What I do notice however is a kinder more civil approach in most social situations.
I can't believe that people let me use the bathroom without buying anything. Try that in new york and you will get some jamaican security guard yelling at you in patios.
We americans can act very crude with each other.
Forget about the upper class argentinians who travel to america. Get to know some local people and you will change your mind.
Member #3320
06-26-09, 01:10
I must say I have been treated very well in buenos aires. Even the waiters are friendly this time around.
I have had many local people offer to help me in numerous ways and would not accept a penny for their help.
Porteņos live a stressed out life just like americans or europeans. It is not in their blood to be overly humble. They are just like any other western person.
What I do notice however is a kinder more civil approach in most social situations.
I can't believe that people let me use the bathroom without buying anything. Try that in new york and you will get some jamaican security guard yelling at you in patios.
We americans can act very crude with each other.
Forget about the upper class argentinians who travel to america. Get to know some local people and you will change your mind.I agree with you 100%. V well said.
Fernando22
06-26-09, 12:06
I agree too with Captain, Artisttyp and many others in this blog who appreciate and enjoy living in this country.
I am from Holland and been almost three years I am living in Buenos Aires, and think of their people be one of the best of the world because of their warmth and sincerity and not so crazy about material things like I found nowadays in many european countries and USA.
But the saying said: you receive what you gave.
I have read also some of you talking very bad about argies here, calling them racist, idiots, corrupts and so on.
It would be fair the ones who write that here safe in the anonimity of this blog can have the oportunity of meet face to face with an argie like the bar iberia, and repeat what they think face to face.
I didn't for myself been through a situation like that.
Only crazy man I met was a italian in a pub in San Telmo, and he gets crazy about german people in general.
Never have a problem like that with an argie.
Member #3320
06-26-09, 16:07
I agree too with Captain, Artisttyp and many others in this blog who appreciate and enjoy living in this country.
I am from Holland and been almost three years I am living in Buenos Aires, and think of their people be one of the best of the world because of their warmth and sincerity and not so crazy about material things like I found nowadays in many european countries and USA.
But the saying said: you receive what you gave.
I have read also some of you talking very bad about argies here, calling them racist, idiots, corrupts and so on.
It would be fair the ones who write that here safe in the anonimity of this blog can have the oportunity of meet face to face with an argie like the bar iberia, and repeat what they think face to face.
I didn't for myself been through a situation like that.
Only crazy man I met was a italian in a pub in San Telmo, and he gets crazy about german people in general.
Never have a problem like that with an argie.Highly appreciate your comment, Fernando.
I have been traveling to Argentina and Chile since the late 80's and have never had a negative experience in 20 years. Though my stays have always been short and I have never lived full time, I can safely say that I can not go wrong in my observation about a country framed from visiting it for 20 years.
Like you correctly said, you get what you give.
I LOVE Argentina and its people.
Locos and Man
07-07-09, 15:57
I have a friend I call Mi Negro up here in the states the states and I was happy to find this board as I was a bit on the fence as to whether or not he would he'd have a good time because of his race.
What you guys have laid out has made it clearer that he ought to have a great time and that 'ymmv' is how things would go.
In my trips to Argentina I never had porteno call me anything negative. Maybe I'm lucky, but we're all subject to our own experiences. I like certain barrios, clubs, diners and I'm drawn to them for my own reasons so I'm heading down a road of people much different than anyone elses and that goes for anyone else.
I've always found Argentines to be class act, some are less than that, but you have some idea what you're getting into and what to expect when you put yourself in certain situations. That boorish idiot is a boorish idiot, an outlier compared to everyone else and everyone else has their own experiences and ideas that have been pressed upon them and that's their right. Unfortunately some do too much of something and stumble over a line.
It was actually kind of interesting being in Argentina for the first time because it was the first time I actually felt like a foreigner, but I met some really nice people, met their friends, bbq'd, went out to clubs, met more people, kept in touch with the ones who really blew me away and from then on it's just stellar. I wouldn't let one bad apple stop you from eating apples. Given the communal mentality it's far easier to make friends from scratch, but maybe it's because they're like 'wow an american, let's talk to it!'
The get what you give balance works well here in my opinion, that's one thing that's always brightened my impression of argies. Not all cases, but if you're somewhat savvy and when in rome it.
One bit of racism I experienced when I was just picking up spanish in Bs As was I said something only Mexicans say and I was stopped cold and told to 'Never say that, that's what Mexicans say.' That just blew me away, but the person I was talking to was otherwise a pretty laid back, open minded friend of mine.
Who'da'thunk it? Lol
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