Calling for serious and thoughtful insight

[Argentina2010]

I am asking for the opinions of Argentinean men. I am not here to judge. I was asked to help research the cultural differences between the US versus AR with respect to software piracy. The attitudes, thoughts, ease of piracy, restriction and laws that are, or are not, enforced, views on intellectual property, corruption and how it ties into it, and maybe the hierarchy of needs or priorities of people. Some statistics show, for Microsoft Windows and products, the rate of piracy in the US at 40% , and the rate here at 70%.

Please refrain from saying that "we are not stupid enough to pay for it when it's free" or other obvious answers like it's too expensive.

I am aware that you can go to a reputable business and purchase a computer with illegal software on it and it's no big deal. I understand enforcement may not take place because the police themselves probably have illegal copies or have other priorities.

Thanks in advance for intelligent commentary on this topic and I look forward to reading your posts.

Thanks,.

Here in Argentina till 2010

[El Queso]

I'm not Argentino, but I just wanted to post my two cents' worth here. I do develop software and am working on a couple of projects that I will eventually sell. I have to buy expensive tools to do my job (I'm a. Net guy, I don't like the other "stacks" as a friend of mine calls other tool paradigms) and the temptation is great to pirate at times (but I DO NOT do so)

In addition, I have had as many as 5 Argentinos programming for me. I KNOW they pirated most, if not all, of their tools, except for the few open-source things we use like SVN source control. And not just programming tools, but operating systems and Office as well.

There is a place nearby that sells, quite in the open, DVDs of movies that are currently displaying in the theater for about 10-15 pesos.

So, I don't think that your question really is asking if any of the above exists, because obviously it does. But the why is not really difficult to understand.

A typical worker (non- or semi-skilled) may make something like 1500 to 2500 pesos a month, depending on the job, seniority, location, etc. Rent for a decent place to live is going to be something like 600 - 1500 pesos a month, depending on WHERE you are and how big (or small) Out here in the 'burbs things are a bit cheaper, in the city approrpriately more so. Not-so-decent places in the city, pensiones (usually dank, musty, not well painted, sometimes no ventilation in the rooms, bathrooms and kitchens downt he halls) go for something like 500-1200 pesos a month. At the end of the day, that doesn't leave much room for entertainment.

Take the movies. It now costs 23 pesos to go to a movie. The first movie I went to here, about three years ago, cost me 12 pesos. If you have kids, entertainment is something that is almost necessary, at least at times. That 10-15 pesos movie watched on a 120 peso DVD player (maybe bought from a "friend" even cheaper) looks a whole lot better than, say four people going to the movies for 92 pesos, or even going to Musimundo and buying a recent release for 40-50 pesos, or even going to the local store and renting it for 15 pesos because they can play it over and over agan, over time.

Of course, that's probably the base of the market, but there are people with money who do the same thing. Maybe they make up the equivalent of half of the US pirates, people who simply disregard the law because it's available.

The fact is, there are an overwhelming amount of people whom we consider poor (but here are maybe "middle class") and then the truly poor, who are inundated with the same (or similar) consumer information that we get in the States, but who do not have access to the means of earning a decent salary to have even some little luxuries at times.

Put on top of the normal, relatively high (to people with little economic means) prices of an item (say, if they could buy directly from the States or China, Japan, Korea, etc) due to the import tariffs that the Argentina government puts on things and it exacerbates the situation even further.

They want to have the material things that they see all the time on TV and advertisements all over.

Intellectual property has a hard enough time nowadays in the States - a lot of these people see that there is an immense amount of wealth coming out of the first world. Couple that to a generally socialist-leaning South America, a relatively uneducated citizenry, and the idea of royalties being paid to generators of intellectual property, or even the understanding of how that works and why it's important to producing creative materials doesn't really rate very high on anyone's watch list.

I don't think it's a real mystery as to why they are willing to accept piracy to attain entertainment or necessities.

BTW - most movies I've bought at Musimundo (I like having a library) have a little skit at the beginning that shows something like a family sitting at dinner together, and the kid says he's done something like taken something that's not his, the mother gets upset and says "you've stolen something" and the kid throws it back in her face that she buys pirated movies. They are trying to equate it to theft, but there is not enough understanding behind it, really (I think) to truly explain to them why it's theft. After all, tehy did buy the movie, didn't they? And someone made some money off of it (the priate seller). And of course, on top of that, I doubt that even if most of them understood, it would make much difference. Because the "need" and the availability will still be there.

The poverty here, and in South America in general, is truly amazing. You don't see the tip of it in the city, as bad as it is, and most of the population lives outside the cities (in general)

[Argentina2010]

I'm not Argentino, but I just wanted to post my two cents' worth here. I do develop software and am working on a couple of projects that I will eventually sell. I have to buy expensive tools to do my job (I'm a. Net guy, I don't like the other "stacks" as a friend of mine calls other tool paradigms) and the temptation is great to pirate at times (but I DO NOT do so)

In addition, I have had as many as 5 Argentinos programming for me. I KNOW they pirated most, if not all, of their tools, except for the few open-source things we use like SVN source control. And not just programming tools, but operating systems and Office as well.

There is a place nearby that sells, quite in the open, DVDs of movies that are currently displaying in the theater for about 10-15 pesos.

So, I don't think that your question really is asking if any of the above exists, because obviously it does. But the why is not really difficult to understand.

A typical worker (non- or semi-skilled) may make something like 1500 to 2500 pesos a month, depending on the job, seniority, location, etc. Rent for a decent place to live is going to be something like 600 - 1500 pesos a month, depending on WHERE you are and how big (or small) Out here in the 'burbs things are a bit cheaper, in the city approrpriately more so. Not-so-decent places in the city, pensiones (usually dank, musty, not well painted, sometimes no ventilation in the rooms, bathrooms and kitchens downt he halls) go for something like 500-1200 pesos a month. At the end of the day, that doesn't leave much room for entertainment.

Take the movies. It now costs 23 pesos to go to a movie. The first movie I went to here, about three years ago, cost me 12 pesos. If you have kids, entertainment is something that is almost necessary, at least at times. That 10-15 pesos movie watched on a 120 peso DVD player (maybe bought from a "friend" even cheaper) looks a whole lot better than, say four people going to the movies for 92 pesos, or even going to Musimundo and buying a recent release for 40-50 pesos, or even going to the local store and renting it for 15 pesos because they can play it over and over agan, over time.

Of course, that's probably the base of the market, but there are people with money who do the same thing. Maybe they make up the equivalent of half of the US pirates, people who simply disregard the law because it's available.

The fact is, there are an overwhelming amount of people whom we consider poor (but here are maybe "middle class") and then the truly poor, who are inundated with the same (or similar) consumer information that we get in the States, but who do not have access to the means of earning a decent salary to have even some little luxuries at times.

Put on top of the normal, relatively high (to people with little economic means) prices of an item (say, if they could buy directly from the States or China, Japan, Korea, etc) due to the import tariffs that the Argentina government puts on things and it exacerbates the situation even further.

They want to have the material things that they see all the time on TV and advertisements all over.

Intellectual property has a hard enough time nowadays in the States - a lot of these people see that there is an immense amount of wealth coming out of the first world. Couple that to a generally socialist-leaning South America, a relatively uneducated citizenry, and the idea of royalties being paid to generators of intellectual property, or even the understanding of how that works and why it's important to producing creative materials doesn't really rate very high on anyone's watch list.

I don't think it's a real mystery as to why they are willing to accept piracy to attain entertainment or necessities.

BTW - most movies I've bought at Musimundo (I like having a library) have a little skit at the beginning that shows something like a family sitting at dinner together, and the kid says he's done something like taken something that's not his, the mother gets upset and says "you've stolen something" and the kid throws it back in her face that she buys pirated movies. They are trying to equate it to theft, but there is not enough understanding behind it, really (I think) to truly explain to them why it's theft. After all, tehy did buy the movie, didn't they? And someone made some money off of it (the priate seller) And of course, on top of that, I doubt that even if most of them understood, it would make much difference. Because the "need" and the availability will still be there.

The poverty here, and in South America in general, is truly amazing. You don't see the tip of it in the city, as bad as it is, and most of the population lives outside the cities (in general)Great Insight-I would love more by you or another reader. Maybe develop the idea about IP or if there is any cultural aspect surrounding tangible and intangible products. I'm stuck with tip-of-tongue thoughts. Or maybe it's that simple? There are poor people in the states that pay for it and rich people that steal it. How do values differ both here and there generally speaking? Maybe it's just that people know in AR there will be no consequence to them whereas in the US there could be?

Plagiarism consequences in schools are pushed hard now-a-days and its part of the US culture. Maybe this contributes?

[Joe Hernandez]

And are bad lovers, have pronto orgasmos, typically, short, with small feet and dicks, liars, and unfaithful. Hope that helps?What do they say about you?

Go to Parque Rivadavia (A line, estacion Agoyte) to see how it works.

[El Queso]

Great Insight-I would love more by you or another reader. Maybe develop the idea about IP or if there is any cultural aspect surrounding tangible and intangible products. I'm stuck with tip-of-tongue thoughts. Or maybe it's that simple? There are poor people in the states that pay for it and rich people that steal it. How do values differ both here and there generally speaking? Maybe it's just that people know in AR there will be no consequence to them whereas in the US there could be?

Plagiarism consequences in schools are pushed hard now-a-days and its part of the US culture. Maybe this contributes?I've written previously about what I think is a contributing root cause to many of the problems I see here, the behaviors, the attitudes, the bent toward socialism and many other things. Some disagree with my thoughts on this. I'm am just a programmer, no degree in athropology or history, yet who has studied some history and worked in places here and there for the last fifteen years where the poor and unfortunate abound. My wife is Paraguayan and I have spent time in her family's home on a much more personal note - their poverty is heartbreaking, and talking with them provides some key insights.

A key word in many things here is "verguenza". It translates as "shame", but it can be more than that, tied to social stigma (as in class distinction) and not just shame at something someone has done. I can't tell you how many times I have interacted with my wife's family (at first even my wife) where I would discover later that something crucial was hidden from me, something I could have helped with before it became a crisis, due to verguenza. They still see me as an AMERICANO (caps on purpose) who is nearly unapproachable and the thought of asking me for anything clams them up tighter than a drum.

In my opinion, much of this stems from what I call a twisted remnant of fuedal times. The times of landholders (who ran Argentina and many other countries in SA and still do in many cases) who were quite literally the lords of their domains, are not that far off. Extremely rich people who were dependent on keeping the poor as ignorant and dependent as possible, and themselves only beholden to higher-ranking royals.

When the most of the world began shrugging off this type of rule, at best it was a lot slower in ex-Spanish colonies. What you have now is a lot of poor people who don't really understand true freedom, who embrace concepts like socialism a lot easier, for example, because they don't have a personal responsibility as strong as what we once had in the States (I believe the States is on the road to losing this concept very quickly) and embrace the concept of a supposedly benevolent government, supposedly elected by the people, who will keep the big guys off their backs and make things better. Noblesse oblige was not as common in Spanish culture as others in Europe. What did exist of it in actual feudal times is about completely gone now. The poor still depend on a solution from the "landholders", or rulers, to solve their problems.

Of course, a lot of things in SA are based on who you know. The good jobs go to the people who know someone who can get them a job. The really good jobs are those where people can take advantage of other people to ask for bribes (coima) to make things go smoothly. It's still a very vertical society where there are a few rich people on top with a spreading base of people underneath, poorer the lower you go, trying to take advantage of what has basically been taken from other people. The concept of working together is not really very strong because everyone is in competition to take the spoils of what the rich allow to trickle down.

Given that, many are already used to the idea that things are not done in the open. There is little concept of progress to make things better - the rich enjoy a good life. It takes education and a personal reason for gain to drive improvement. The rich are not particularly interested in educating the poor who live all around them - but they are very interested in ensuring that their children are well-educated. The poor have little hope of overcoming the rich because that is their lot and verguenza keeps them in their place, though they may grumble and moan. Anything more, also, would require them to actually band together and do something.

Most people here have really no idea what the States is like and why some of us have a hard time accepting and "respecting" their culture. They know nothing else and can't imagine that people can work together instead of trying to take everything they can that isn't nailed down. This is also, I think, why many poor countries think the US in the world view is really like the rich in their own countries. They assume that although obviously the Iraq war had something to do with assuring a supply of oil to the US, they also assumed that we were (are) stealing every drop of oil the Iraqis can produce to pay for the war. That is a "known fact" here in Argentina. Not in Paraguay, where they love us.

It's inconceivable to most SA citizens that the goal was to stabilize the country and turn it into a democracy that would be beholden to us, yes, maybe even give us a discount (not steep) on oil for thanks for freeing them; but a real democracy and the possibility of producing other democracies in the region by rubbing off. BTW - I say this was probably the goal of the Iraq war, not that Bush (et al) had any real understanding how to actually do it, this is just an example. It's inconceivable because that's not how it operates here.

Given this whole theme of poverty and serfs, they still see that there are better things out there. At any level except the higher levels, this is true. There are exceptions, but the norm is that no one trusts anyone else, and they will get what they can by whatever means are at their disposal.

One of my wife's younger sisters lives with us and goes to school here. I could talk at long length about schools here, but this is already getting long enough:) But you mentioned plagiarism and how in the States it so strongly discouraged. Here, the schools often don't have books - many can't afford them. Seven, eight, maybe nine different books, anywhere from 40 pesos to 100 pesos, depending on how hard it is to find what's been assigned. 400 - 500 pesos maybe. They instead sell Xeroxed copies of books to the students for a much cheaper price, a couple of pesos. The schools themselves think nothing of copying copyrighted materials and passing them to their students. Often, the instructions for homework are "go to the web, do a search on this subject, and copy what is written. Paste a printed pitcure." For real. Never the words "tell me in your own words". Most of the kids have to go to a locutorio to do their homework.

The poverty, the lack of good education at most levels, and the way people treat each other really breaks my heart at times. I hear some of the most incredible stories about how people live and deal with their poverty. My wife's family is one of the best group of people I've ever known, and to listen to their story about how others do what they can to keep their family down the same way those around them are is just almost unbelievable until you see it for yourself.

Given all of this, relatively loose morals, competition to feed off the scraps left by the twisted remnants of the old fuedal system, verguenza, et al, gives them much less reason to think that pirating intellectual property is a bad thing. Particualry if it comes from the first world, whom they see (correctly in SOME cases, but not all, because I think their own people did more to them and the first world took advantage of that rather than causing it) with both awe and envy, wanting to emulate the aspects of the society that they see, but not understanding it completely because they don't have the proper frame of reference to know that it's not just the rich who enjoy (at least relatively to them) a good life too, in other places.

My fifty cents' worth, if that.

[Argentina2010]

I've written previously about what I think is a contributing root cause to many of the problems I see here, the behaviors, the attitudes, the bent toward socialism and many other things. Some disagree with my thoughts on this. I'm am just a programmer, no degree in athropology or history, yet who has studied some history and worked in places here and there for the last fifteen years where the poor and unfortunate abound. My wife is Paraguayan and I have spent time in her family's home on a much more personal note - their poverty is heartbreaking, and talking with them provides some key insights.

A key word in many things here is "verguenza". It translates as "shame", but it can be more than that, tied to social stigma (as in class distinction) and not just shame at something someone has done. I can't tell you how many times I have interacted with my wife's family (at first even my wife) where I would discover later that something crucial was hidden from me, something I could have helped with before it became a crisis, due to verguenza. They still see me as an AMERICANO (caps on purpose) who is nearly unapproachable and the thought of asking me for anything clams them up tighter than a drum.

In my opinion, much of this stems from what I call a twisted remnant of fuedal times. The times of landholders (who ran Argentina and many other countries in SA and still do in many cases) who were quite literally the lords of their domains, are not that far off. Extremely rich people who were dependent on keeping the poor as ignorant and dependent as possible, and themselves only beholden to higher-ranking royals.

When the most of the world began shrugging off this type of rule, at best it was a lot slower in ex-Spanish colonies. What you have now is a lot of poor people who don't really understand true freedom, who embrace concepts like socialism a lot easier, for example, because they don't have a personal responsibility as strong as what we once had in the States (I believe the States is on the road to losing this concept very quickly) and embrace the concept of a supposedly benevolent government, supposedly elected by the people, who will keep the big guys off their backs and make things better. Noblesse oblige was not as common in Spanish culture as others in Europe. What did exist of it in actual feudal times is about completely gone now. The poor still depend on a solution from the "landholders", or rulers, to solve their problems.

Of course, a lot of things in SA are based on who you know. The good jobs go to the people who know someone who can get them a job. The really good jobs are those where people can take advantage of other people to ask for bribes (coima) to make things go smoothly. It's still a very vertical society where there are a few rich people on top with a spreading base of people underneath, poorer the lower you go, trying to take advantage of what has basically been taken from other people. The concept of working together is not really very strong because everyone is in competition to take the spoils of what the rich allow to trickle down.

Given that, many are already used to the idea that things are not done in the open. There is little concept of progress to make things better - the rich enjoy a good life. It takes education and a personal reason for gain to drive improvement. The rich are not particularly interested in educating the poor who live all around them - but they are very interested in ensuring that their children are well-educated. The poor have little hope of overcoming the rich because that is their lot and verguenza keeps them in their place, though they may grumble and moan. Anything more, also, would require them to actually band together and do something.

Most people here have really no idea what the States is like and why some of us have a hard time accepting and "respecting" their culture. They know nothing else and can't imagine that people can work together instead of trying to take everything they can that isn't nailed down. This is also, I think, why many poor countries think the US in the world view is really like the rich in their own countries. They assume that although obviously the Iraq war had something to do with assuring a supply of oil to the US, they also assumed that we were (are) stealing every drop of oil the Iraqis can produce to pay for the war. That is a "known fact" here in Argentina. Not in Paraguay, where they love us.

It's inconceivable to most SA citizens that the goal was to stabilize the country and turn it into a democracy that would be beholden to us, yes, maybe even give us a discount (not steep) on oil for thanks for freeing them; but a real democracy and the possibility of producing other democracies in the region by rubbing off. BTW - I say this was probably the goal of the Iraq war, not that Bush (et al) had any real understanding how to actually do it, this is just an example. It's inconceivable because that's not how it operates here.

Given this whole theme of poverty and serfs, they still see that there are better things out there. At any level except the higher levels, this is true. There are exceptions, but the norm is that no one trusts anyone else, and they will get what they can by whatever means are at their disposal.

One of my wife's younger sisters lives with us and goes to school here. I could talk at long length about schools here, but this is already getting long enough:) But you mentioned plagiarism and how in the States it so strongly discouraged. Here, the schools often don't have books - many can't afford them. Seven, eight, maybe nine different books, anywhere from 40 pesos to 100 pesos, depending on how hard it is to find what's been assigned. 400 - 500 pesos maybe. They instead sell Xeroxed copies of books to the students for a much cheaper price, a couple of pesos. The schools themselves think nothing of copying copyrighted materials and passing them to their students. Often, the instructions for homework are "go to the web, do a search on this subject, and copy what is written. Paste a printed pitcure." For real. Never the words "tell me in your own words". Most of the kids have to go to a locutorio to do their homework.

The poverty, the lack of good education at most levels, and the way people treat each other really breaks my heart at times. I hear some of the most incredible stories about how people live and deal with their poverty. My wife's family is one of the best group of people I've ever known, and to listen to their story about how others do what they can to keep their family down the same way those around them are is just almost unbelievable until you see it for yourself.

Given all of this, relatively loose morals, competition to feed off the scraps left by the twisted remnants of the old fuedal system, verguenza, et al, gives them much less reason to think that pirating intellectual property is a bad thing. Particualry if it comes from the first world, whom they see (correctly in SOME cases, but not all, because I think their own people did more to them and the first world took advantage of that rather than causing it) with both awe and envy, wanting to emulate the aspects of the society that they see, but not understanding it completely because they don't have the proper frame of reference to know that it's not just the rich who enjoy (at least relatively to them) a good life too, in other places.

My fifty cents' worth, if that.Amazing post. So insightful. This gives me a lot to consider and a way to make sense of things. Thanks. I feel obligated to write more:) Probably later today.

[Joe Hernandez]

I have to see that going to the movies is cheaper then going out. 2 x entradas and popcorn and 2 cokes cost you about 60 peso. For that money you can't go out at a boliche or having dinner.

That's why at least in my opinion the movies are stil doing business on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday night most movies are full mostly with elder couples, younger couples and groups of friends.

I don't go to children-friendly movies but I assume there are not many families who go there with 4,5 persons.

I speak about Capital and zona Norte, the rest of the country I don't know well enough

[TejanoLibre]

I've written previously about what I think is a contributing root cause to many of the problems I see here, the behaviors, the attitudes, the bent toward socialism and many other things. Some disagree with my thoughts on this. I'm am just a programmer, no degree in athropology or history, yet who has studied some history and worked in places here and there for the last fifteen years where the poor and unfortunate abound. My wife is Paraguayan and I have spent time in her family's home on a much more personal note - their poverty is heartbreaking, and talking with them provides some key insights.

A key word in many things here is "verguenza". It translates as "shame", but it can be more than that, tied to social stigma (as in class distinction) and not just shame at something someone has done. I can't tell you how many times I have interacted with my wife's family (at first even my wife) where I would discover later that something crucial was hidden from me, something I could have helped with before it became a crisis, due to verguenza. They still see me as an AMERICANO (caps on purpose) who is nearly unapproachable and the thought of asking me for anything clams them up tighter than a drum.

In my opinion, much of this stems from what I call a twisted remnant of fuedal times. The times of landholders (who ran Argentina and many other countries in SA and still do in many cases) who were quite literally the lords of their domains, are not that far off. Extremely rich people who were dependent on keeping the poor as ignorant and dependent as possible, and themselves only beholden to higher-ranking royals.

When the most of the world began shrugging off this type of rule, at best it was a lot slower in ex-Spanish colonies. What you have now is a lot of poor people who don't really understand true freedom, who embrace concepts like socialism a lot easier, for example, because they don't have a personal responsibility as strong as what we once had in the States (I believe the States is on the road to losing this concept very quickly) and embrace the concept of a supposedly benevolent government, supposedly elected by the people, who will keep the big guys off their backs and make things better. Noblesse oblige was not as common in Spanish culture as others in Europe. What did exist of it in actual feudal times is about completely gone now. The poor still depend on a solution from the "landholders", or rulers, to solve their problems.

Of course, a lot of things in SA are based on who you know. The good jobs go to the people who know someone who can get them a job. The really good jobs are those where people can take advantage of other people to ask for bribes (coima) to make things go smoothly. It's still a very vertical society where there are a few rich people on top with a spreading base of people underneath, poorer the lower you go, trying to take advantage of what has basically been taken from other people. The concept of working together is not really very strong because everyone is in competition to take the spoils of what the rich allow to trickle down.

Given that, many are already used to the idea that things are not done in the open. There is little concept of progress to make things better - the rich enjoy a good life. It takes education and a personal reason for gain to drive improvement. The rich are not particularly interested in educating the poor who live all around them - but they are very interested in ensuring that their children are well-educated. The poor have little hope of overcoming the rich because that is their lot and verguenza keeps them in their place, though they may grumble and moan. Anything more, also, would require them to actually band together and do something.

Most people here have really no idea what the States is like and why some of us have a hard time accepting and "respecting" their culture. They know nothing else and can't imagine that people can work together instead of trying to take everything they can that isn't nailed down. This is also, I think, why many poor countries think the US in the world view is really like the rich in their own countries. They assume that although obviously the Iraq war had something to do with assuring a supply of oil to the US, they also assumed that we were (are) stealing every drop of oil the Iraqis can produce to pay for the war. That is a "known fact" here in Argentina. Not in Paraguay, where they love us.

It's inconceivable to most SA citizens that the goal was to stabilize the country and turn it into a democracy that would be beholden to us, yes, maybe even give us a discount (not steep) on oil for thanks for freeing them; but a real democracy and the possibility of producing other democracies in the region by rubbing off. BTW - I say this was probably the goal of the Iraq war, not that Bush (et al) had any real understanding how to actually do it, this is just an example. It's inconceivable because that's not how it operates here.

Given this whole theme of poverty and serfs, they still see that there are better things out there. At any level except the higher levels, this is true. There are exceptions, but the norm is that no one trusts anyone else, and they will get what they can by whatever means are at their disposal.

One of my wife's younger sisters lives with us and goes to school here. I could talk at long length about schools here, but this is already getting long enough:) But you mentioned plagiarism and how in the States it so strongly discouraged. Here, the schools often don't have books - many can't afford them. Seven, eight, maybe nine different books, anywhere from 40 pesos to 100 pesos, depending on how hard it is to find what's been assigned. 400 - 500 pesos maybe. They instead sell Xeroxed copies of books to the students for a much cheaper price, a couple of pesos. The schools themselves think nothing of copying copyrighted materials and passing them to their students. Often, the instructions for homework are "go to the web, do a search on this subject, and copy what is written. Paste a printed pitcure." For real. Never the words "tell me in your own words". Most of the kids have to go to a locutorio to do their homework.

The poverty, the lack of good education at most levels, and the way people treat each other really breaks my heart at times. I hear some of the most incredible stories about how people live and deal with their poverty. My wife's family is one of the best group of people I've ever known, and to listen to their story about how others do what they can to keep their family down the same way those around them are is just almost unbelievable until you see it for yourself.

Given all of this, relatively loose morals, competition to feed off the scraps left by the twisted remnants of the old fuedal system, verguenza, et al, gives them much less reason to think that pirating intellectual property is a bad thing. Particualry if it comes from the first world, whom they see (correctly in SOME cases, but not all, because I think their own people did more to them and the first world took advantage of that rather than causing it) with both awe and envy, wanting to emulate the aspects of the society that they see, but not understanding it completely because they don't have the proper frame of reference to know that it's not just the rich who enjoy (at least relatively to them) a good life too, in other places.

My fifty cents' worth, if that.Anything like East Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana, West Virginia, Alabama, Florida, etc?

[Gato Hunter]

Argentina has nothing on Taiwan, Hong Kong and if you know where to look China also when it comes to pirated software or movies. Some comes with a hidden surprise but 90% works as normal.

[Christopherd]

An old subject, I see by the dates, but one that is being revisited in Europe in light of music and movie piracy. (I am European, not Argentinian, but it seems probable that the original research has expired, so my nationality is not at issue on this point.)

I am not in favour of piracy. But many of the corporate arguments are flawed. For instance, they talk about X million $$$ "lost" through pirated sales. This ignores the fact that a large proportion of people that obtained pirated software did not and would not ever have the money to afford the legitimate article. The calculations are based on the idea that the same people would have spent money they did not have, which would have gone to the copyright owner. This is clearly false. The argument is based on moral outrage, not logic. But because it is based on a false (or severely compromised) premise, it is a less than valid moral argument against piracy.

One of the main purposes of copyright however. Perhaps the most important one, is to maintain integrity of the original. If it was impossible to tell if your copy of Windows7 was an original (because of the amount of pirated versions available) , then it could host many flaws, bugs, even viruses. Now Windows contains a lot of bugs anyway, but it is unfair to attribute bugs to Microsoft that did not originate with them. It is also inefficient (inabity to attribute flaws severely limits the ability to eradicate them.) This is a valid moral argument against piracy.

There is a further moral argument in favour of some piracy (or "music sharing" to give it its less discriminatory name) which is advanced by some musicians. It goes something like this. The big corporations control the industry to the benefit of themselves (which is fair enough) but to the disadvantage of genuine emerging talent. Small emerging bands see little benefit and little left of royalties. Their main interest is getting their music heard, and punitive copyright laws favour big artists but swap the market to the detriment of smaller artists. This works throughout the industry in various ways (Shows like The X-Factor, for instance, now have tremendous airplay clout).

So there are mixed arguments. It is not black and white. And it leads into the question of economic occupation (which, I would respectfully suggest to the long and thoughtful poster, is an important element of the dislike or whatever held by many Argentinians towards the USA. Do remember they are not all uneducated people that have never travelled! And much has been written on economic occupation).

With kind regards.

Christopherd