In Argentina, the Customer is a Pussy Waiting to Get Fucked

[El Queso]

A very apt phrase that Jackson coined.

I went to a kiosco today. The young idiot who was "attending" the kiosco was standing outside talking to a buddy. Inside he had Black Sabbath grinding out at high volume. I didn't really want to be assaulted by that, but it was the closest to my apartment and it wouldn't take but a moment of toleration.

I entered and stood in front of the counter and waited. The idiot stood there talking to his buddy. Just as I was about to leave, he broke off and entered. I asked for some cigarettes. As he was getting them another man came in behind me.

The newcomer says nicely "could you turn the music down a little?"

The idiot responds "no!" very curtly.

The newcomer says "this is a kiosco, not a boliche."

The idiot answers "you're wrong, this is a boliche."

He then hands me the cigarettes and I hand him a five and two peso note. He asks me for a ten, which I do not have. The cigarettes are 6 pesos and he doesn't have ANY monedas. Supposedly. I offer him a fifty, but he doesn't have any small bills. I tell him to forget it. He laughs and says "bueno" with a smaile on his face.

I tell him, "you know, you're going to lose clients like that."

He says "excellent!" with that shit-eating smile on his face.

Of course, the newcomer sat there waiting patiently the whole time, a pussy waiting to get fucked.

The kiosco is on Esmeralda, between Juncal and Arenales. It's the only one on the block. If anyone remembers and has a desire to get something there - find another kiosco. Don't be a pussy. Heh.

[Schmoj]

That guy who as you say just stood like "a pussy waiting to get fucked," probably doesn't even remember the incident, while you are worked up enough about it to post about it here on AP.

Most porteños don't get worked up by dickish behavior because it happens daily and most of them tend to indulge in that themselves. This is a big city. In that respect, it's not that different from NY or Paris (other big cities where I have lived)

The true fucking comes when you get the incorrect change in a kiosk, or there's an extra desert on your bill. Many porteños I know will actually tally the bill themselves and compare it to the prices on the menu. Personally, I'm usually too lazy, but I know I'm probably getting ripped off because of it.

[El Queso]

Schmoj, everything you said is correct.

However, the point of the guy in line behind me forgetting the incident is actually part of exactly what I'm talking about. They are used to assholes and their behavior, but as a society they do nothing about it because they are used to not fighting back.

Of course, that is just one way to get fucked. The examples you provide are just as prevelant as well.

When one is a visitor here and can leave and come back at will, these sorts of things are easy to shrug off. After awhile, it pervades every aspect of life to the point where it can be frustrating and there's still not a dmaned thing you can do about it. It took me a year of living here before I realized that Buenos Aires was not the Eden it seemed when I was visiting.

There are still good things about living here, for sure. I'd still rather live here than the US, for personal reasons that I won't go into; but as well, I'm an estadounidense who just can't keep quiet about the little things that are so frustrating here at times.

[Wild Walleye]

However, the point of the guy in line behind me forgetting the incident is actually part of exactly what I'm talking about. They are used to assholes and their behavior, but as a society they do nothing about it because they are used to not fighting back.Argentine history rife with broader examples that are consistent with your thesis.

[Seismo]

It is unlikely that the owner of the kiosk is aware that his employee is chasing off customers. If you are still upset, you might consider contacting the owner. His name and contact information are displayed on the business licence hanging on the wall.

[Schmoj]

It took me a year of living here before I realized that Buenos Aires was not the Eden it seemed when I was visiting.Amen to that. I loved Argentina when I was here as a tourist. My first two years living here, I actually hated it, though work had a lot to do with that. I'm finally enjoying life more here, and that is probably in part due to the fact that I am used to the behavior of porteños. I rarely notice now when a car cuts me off in the middle of a crosswalk.

I understand what you were saying now, and this is behavior that pervades all aspects of life here: from crossing the street to paying for food in the line at Jumbo (just finished with that ordeal).

To contradict part of what I said earlier, even in Paris (if you make an effort to speak French) and New York people are relatively friendly and don't go out of your way to rip you off or run over you.

Why do I live here again?:-)

[Dccpa]

Schmoj.

Even though I have only been to BA once, I experienced the same thing at a grocery store in Recoleta. I was third in line at the checkout as a customer had just finished and was walking out. Suddenly the customer turns around and goes back to the clerk. 15 minutes later, they are still going over the list and I am still third in line. I ask the man in front of me, problema? And he replies no problema. I laid down my goods and walked out. During the entire time, the manager was strolling around. They may not value their time, but I do, especially my vacation time. For the very reasons you gentlemen have mentioned, I do not plan on retiring anywhere south of the US border or in Eastern Europe.

[El Queso]

It is unlikely that the owner of the kiosk is aware that his employee is chasing off customers. If you are still upset, you might consider contacting the owner. His name and contact information are displayed on the business licence hanging on the wall.Yeah, I was already planning on doing something like that. I think the idiot is the owner's son, actually. There is an older gentleman and lady who work the place most days, and I figure I will pop by one of these days and have a conversation.

BTW - to also contradict myself - I may have been a little harsh suggesting that everyone not go to that particular kiosco, but when I wrote to begin with, I was still fuming a bit.

[Wild Walleye]

A contributing factor in my opinion is that in Argentina, over much of the past 150 years intra-generational conveyance of wealth, dreams and hope has not been what it is in the US and other places.

For the most part, in the US, each successive generation is accompanied by the dreams and hopes of their parents and grand parents, for their individual and thus collective success. They (parents) worked their balls off to provide a better life for their children, sent them off to university, etc. When they died, they left what they had saved to their heirs. This cycle, particularly within the immigrant inflections throughout the 19th and 20th centuries repeats itself methodically and reliably in some places (such as the US) When a cycle like this occurs so reliably over a couple hundred years, successive generations come to expect it. In some cases this knowledge or expectation leads them to squander their talents and birthright while in many cases it enables them to achieve more.

In places where this cycle does not occur or where there are phenomenons occurring that tend to keep the people "down" or destroy what wealth they have accumulated, there tends to be a more pessimistic outlook imbued into the local DNA. This might manifest itself in the behavior described or in the attitude "it isn't "if" there will be a [crash, devaluation, etc], it is when." this might also lead one to say "Buen dia" rather than "Buenos Dias."

[Schmoj]

A contributing factor in my opinion is that in Argentina, over much of the past 150 years intra-generational conveyance of wealth, dreams and hope has not been what it is in the US and other places. The problem with this theory is that everything we've discussed in this thread is specific to Capital Federal, not Argentina as a whole nor most of the Provincia de Buenos Aires.

Sure, there are assholes everywhere, but this behavior is rare outside of Capital. Try going to Salta, Jujuy, Cordoba, Misiones, or even Mar del Plata.

[Wild Walleye]

The problem with this theory is that everything we've discussed in this thread is specific to Capital Federal, not Argentina as a whole nor most of the Provincia de Buenos Aires.

Sure, there are assholes everywhere, but this behavior is rare outside of Capital. Try going to Salta, Jujuy, Cordoba, Misiones, or even Mar del Plata.My experiences outside of the AMBA are limited. I was proposing one possibility as a contributing factor. My thought is that it might exacerbate the "I don't care if my customers go away" attitude rather than fully explain the phenomenon. I attribute the rudeness to certain people are just rude like some people are just assholes (me included, although my manners are pretty good)

Cities in general tend to be less personal than more sparsely populated locales.

While I have seen it, I haven't really had much of a problem with the aforementioned behavior. Contrary to my lack of patience for those who make poorly constructed (I. E. Unsupported) political posts a habit, my fuse is pretty long (although I am not immune to busting a gasket on something minor, every once in a while) It took me a little while to adjust to the pace in Bs As, however, I quickly learned that no amount of bile, backing up in my system will make it go faster (e. G. Buying a cell phone and activating service or paying bills in person) I either need a "work around" or go with the flow. The guy at one store pisses me off, it is an opportunity to stroll to another one and take in the sights.

Similarly, I have had plenty of experience in socialist and other non-incentive-based societies (before and after certain literal and figurative delineating structures fell) so I am not perplexed by such behavior. In certain places, I have offered very large tips to individuals and firms to essentially do their jobs (but to do them a little faster or maybe at night or over a weekend or a holiday) It is not uncommon for such largess to be refused. In a certain Scandinavian country, the service at restaurants almost always sucks. Why? Because whether the service is great or if it sucks, the server will get paid the exact same amount.

I must say, however, that many of Argentina's beautiful women have figured that the opposite is true (at least with many of us) in that fantastic services bring just rewards.

[Schmoj]

Cities in general tend to be less personal than more sparsely populated locales.This is true, but takes on a whole new meaning in Buenos Aires.


While I have seen it, I haven't really had much of a problem with the aforementioned behavior. Contrary to my lack of patience for those who make poorly constructed (I. E. Unsupported) political posts a habit, my fuse is pretty long (although I am not immune to busting a gasket on something minor, every once in a while) Porteños are known for their arrogance. Are you sure you aren't from here.:-)


It took me a little while to adjust to the pace in Bs As, however, I quickly learned that no amount of bile, backing up in my system will make it go faster (e. G. Buying a cell phone and activating service or paying bills in person) I either need a "work around" or go with the flow. The guy at one store pisses me off, it is an opportunity to stroll to another one and take in the sights.I agree and it is something that has taken a while for me to master. I just assume everything is going to take 5 times more than it should. Then when it doesn't, it's a pleasant surprise.


Similarly, I have had plenty of experience in socialist and other.

Non-incentive-based societies (before and after certain literal and figurative delineating structures fell) so I am not perplexed by such behavior. Not sure I follow you here. When is that last time you went to Target? My experiences in Target are as bad, if not worse, than any apathetic customer service in Argentina. Though, I would certainly consider minimum wage a non-incentive, so maybe you are right.


In certain places, I have offered very large tips to individuals and firms to essentially do their jobs (but to do them a little faster or maybe at night or over a weekend or a holiday) That's how things run here. I just renewed my visa. It took 2 days and required two hours of my time to deliver my passport, have my finger prints taken, and sign a form. It required 1700 USD from my employer.

Had I done this by myself, it would have cost approximately 1000 pesos, but would have taken me at least 1 month. This is not an exaggeration.


It is not uncommon for such largess to be refused. In a certain Scandinavian country, the service at restaurants almost always sucks. Why? Because whether the service is great or if it sucks, the server will get paid the exact same amount.If not receiving a tip based on "performance" was the cause of substandard performance, wouldn't this also be true of any salaried employee anywhere in the world? I don't do my job worse because I don't get a performance bonus.

The reality is, restaurant service is only good in the US because they are kissing your ass for a tip. Not vice versa.


I must say, however, that many of Argentina's beautiful women have figured that the opposite is true (at least with many of us) in that fantastic services bring just rewards.As they say: Hay de todo.

[Wild Walleye]

Porteños are known for their arrogance. Are you sure you aren't from here.:-)I like you more and more every day. However, my arrogance is one that was acquired rather than genetically handed down.


Not sure I follow you here. When is that last time you went to Target? My experiences in Target are as bad, if not worse, than any apathetic customer service in Argentina.There are good and bad employees at all the big box, low-cost shops (Target, Wal-Mart, etc) However, they make up for their employees' idiosyncrasies with super low prices. You are being compensated for the inconvenience. However, the poor service that I might encounter at my local Big Box is probably based upon genetic shortcomings rather than bad attitude.


Though, I would certainly consider minimum wage a non-incentive, so maybe you are right.Minimum wage in many states is over $8.00/ hr (AR$31.60) So that guy who greats you at Wal-Mart on your way in the door is getting $64.00 per day ($320 and $1,280 per week and month, respectively) to do that. If you have a choice of collecting unemployment for 2 years or greeting folks at Wal-Mart 40 hrs / week for the above sums, I guess sitting on the coach looks better (maybe they should look into whether or not giving too many unemployment benefits acts as a disincentive to find work.


If not receiving a tip based on "performance" was the cause of substandard performance, wouldn't this also be true of any salaried employee anywhere in the world? I don't do my job worse because I don't get a performance bonus.However, if you screw up, you get a bad-performance disincentive called fired.


The reality is, restaurant service is only good in the US because they are kissing your ass for a tip.I thought that they really liked me (like the chicas in Bs As)


Not vice versa.Here we can continue to disagree.


As they say: Hay de todo.Now we agree again, this is getting confusing.

[Schmoj]

There are good and bad employees at all the big box, low-cost shops (Target, Wal-Mart, etc) However, they make up for their employees' idiosyncrasies with super low prices. You are being compensated for the inconvenience. However, the poor service that I might encounter at my local Big Box is probably based upon genetic shortcomings rather than bad attitude. Sure, but I would say the same thing probably applies to Cheese's friend at the Kiosco. But rather than Everyday Low Prices, you are paying (not with money, but with your eardrums) for not having to walk half a block to the next one. Crazy as it may seems, that's probably what is running through that guys head.


Minimum wage in many states is over $8.00/ hr (AR$31.60) So that guy who greats you at Wal-Mart on your way in the door is getting $64.00 per day ($320 and $1,280 per week and month, respectively) to do that. If you have a choice of collecting unemployment for 2 years or greeting folks at Wal-Mart 40 hrs / week for the above sums, I guess sitting on the coach looks better (maybe they should look into whether or not giving too many unemployment benefits acts as a disincentive to find work.Shitfuck. My last minimum wage job in the early 90s was for a whopping 3.75. Maybe I should go back to washing dishes.


However, if you screw up, you get a bad-performance disincentive called fired.I wish. My professional experience (software industry) begs to differ. The only time I have seen people lose their job due to bad performance as a matter of policy is sales. Everyone else just gets worked around.


I thought that they really liked me (like the chicas in Bs As)I'm sure they do. What's not to like?


Here we can continue to disagree.Ok. Remind me again what it was.




Now we agree again, this is getting confusing.It's a full moon. That must be the explanation of all this agreeing.