View Full Version : Cablegate Wikileaks
Rockin Bob
11-28-10, 23:09
I tell you what, I can't wait for what they have to say about Cristina (apparently the State Department is concerned with "the state of her mental health," but meanwhile I highly recommend.)
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/28/world/20101128-cables-viewer.html#report/cables-06MOSCOW9533
Go to the NYTimes and you'll easily find it.
What is related and the fact that it is related by a diplomat combine to make this the funniest thing I have read in a very long time. And it's true.
I have never started a thread before but this one deserves its own. I'm really looking forward to everyone's comments!
"In a preview of what is to come in future days, as the news organizations reveal more of the contents of the leaked documents, the Spanish newspaper El País hints that the cables contain "judgments" on "the characters, hobbies and sins" of Latin American leaders, including Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, Argentina's president. According to El País, one cable it plans to publish on Monday indicates that questions were asked at the State Department's highest levels about the Argentine president's "mental health."
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/reaction-to-leaked-u-s-diplomatic-cables/?hp
Can't wait to read that.
IMHO, the leak is one example of why there should not be gays in the US miltary. Nothing against gay peoples' lifestyle, but there is an agenda and if they don't get their way, then stuff like this will keep happening.
Stinger
Stan Da Man
11-30-10, 19:47
IMHO, the leak is one example of why there should not be gays in the US miltary. Nothing against gay peoples' lifestyle, but there is an agenda and if they don't get their way, then stuff like this will keep happening.
StingerHuh? I'm not sure how you're tying those two trains of thought together. If you know who sent all of these cables and telegrams to Wikileaks, please let us know. Beyond that, I can't make sense of your anti-gay statements. I'm not for outed gays in the military, but I don't see how that relates to comments about Kirchner's mental state.
There is another account of the 'mental state' comments about Cristina Kirchner. They apparently were made by Hillary Clinton, of all people, although they are milder than they were made out to be. The Guardian has an article here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/29/hillary-clinton-cristina-kirchner-stress She likely would have been sending those comments to the US Ambassador under Obama, who also is a female former lawyer from a big law firm.
Anyone who has been with Latina chicas (I doubt Hillary Clinton has, but it's entirely possible) will understand how questions about a Latina's mental state could arise. They operate very differently than European or American chicas, in my opinion. Neither worse nor better, just different. If you're not familiar, then I could see how you could question their mental state. Notice that we didn't see any questions by Bill Clinton about Kirchner's mental state. He understands, especially after that wild night at Cocodrillo a few years back.
Sorry Stan,
I did not post about Cristina because the title of this thread is Cablegate Wikileaks, which I took to mean anything related to the Wikileaks.
As for Christina, it would be interesting to see what the US thinks of her, but IMHO would not make any difference to the US-Argentine relationship. If the US thinks she is unbalanced, it would confirm what some others think. Her power base doesn't like the US, and I would think her opposition has a better feeling about the US and would take a "See, I told you so" attitude to anything from the US that is not flattering to her.
Bradley Manning had posted to his Facebook page," Take me for who I am, or face the consequences" and that he was "beyond frustrated with people and society at large."
I work with quite a few gay people. My wife's best friend is a gay male- "her gay" in modern terminology. I was also in the US military for 12 years. IMHO, many gays have an agenda. Having a situation where a gay private had so much access to so much information was incredibly stupid because it made it possible for him to do what he did.
Like I said, if someone is gay, that is fine with me. I just do not think we should have gays in the US military.
Stinger
Wild Walleye
12-01-10, 14:01
This whole wiener-leaks episode proves that we have become a nation of pussies.
There was a day when this whole episode would have been handled in a much more direct manner. If you engage in or facilitate access to and the theft of classified material your are guilty of espionage. Further, if you use that purloined information for the purpose of damaging America, you are engaging in an act of war. In better times, when we actually had the balls to protect ourselves, there would have been a swift decision to determine the leaker's culpability and who it is attacking us. Both threats would then have been dispatched with extreme prejudice.
The perpetuation of the greatest and freest nation ever known to man requires standing up to threats and attacks. Just because the socio-emotional framework has changed to coddle those who want to kill us does not mean that we should in fact coddle them. Swift, brutal justice delivered with honor and integrity is what is called for. However, we lack the moral compass and intestinal fortitude to do what is right.
We bombed the hell out of civilian populations during World War II because that was the path to righteous victory. Yet today, we won't single out travelers with Yemeni stamps in their passports for greater scrutiny before boarding a commercial flight nor will we reach out and touch someone who is attacking us through these leaks.
As for Christina, it would be interesting to see what the US thinks of her, but IMHO would not make any difference to the US-Argentine relationship.Agreed. I think that Hilary was just fishing to see if Christina had better meds than she did. She probably also wanted to find out about what procedures she had done on those blowjob lips.
If the US thinks she is unbalanced, it would confirm what some others think. Her power base doesn't like the US, and I would think her opposition has a better feeling about the US and would take a "See, I told you so" attitude to anything from the US that is not flattering to her.I would suspect that any intel on meds, stress levels or other mental facets of the target are for background and contextual purposes. I didn't get the feeling that the author of the cable suspected that she was unbalanced, I think that they were probably trying to confirm what many of us suspect. That Nestor was the puppet master and Christina the marionette. Additionally, understanding how she ticks is helpful especially since the passing of el penguino. How will she hold together his coalition of banditos? What legally-permissible actions can we take to facilitate cracks in the coalition in order to help a more consistent, pro-American administration come to fruition.
Bradley Manning had posted to his Facebook page," Take me for who I am, or face the consequences" and that he was "beyond frustrated with people and society at large."If it is proven that Bradley Manning is responsible for these leaks, it will be he who shall "face the consequences." If true he is not a whistleblower, he is a traitor.
Unfortunately, as a nation of pussies, we will not take the appropriate measures in response to treason, sabotage and acts of war. I have not read much if anything about why he did it. I did see this passage, attributed to him:
'[I'm] regularly ignored except when I had something essential then it was back to 'bring me coffee, then sweep the floor', ' he told the former hacker, who asked what he would do if his cover was blown during an online chat shortly after he allegedly sent the files to WikiLeaks. '[I] Felt like I was an abused work horse. '
Boo hoo, why don't we go on over to mamby pamby land. Well of course, he was a 22 year old private that didn't know shit from shinola. What's more, he proved that in addition to being unworthy of any substantive work he was also unworthy to get their coffee or even be in the building. For the most part, the military is a meritocracy. The only thing he has merited is a swift hanging.
"Like an abused workhorse"
Give me a f*cking break. He had a desk job. Try being in the field breathing sand and getting shot at night and day.
I work with quite a few gay people. My wife's best friend is a gay male- "her gay" in modern terminology. I was also in the US military for 12 years. IMHO, many gays have an agenda. Having a situation where a gay private had so much access to so much information was incredibly stupid because it made it possible for him to do what he did.Many people have agendas. I suspect that on the whole, very few of those include damaging America in the way that Manning is accused of doing, for no apparent reason. I don't know that his gayness made him do it. However, I suspect that is actions were quite possibly an asymmetrical reaction to perceived wrongs that he may have endured throughout life. I also suspect that there was some external psychological manipulation going on which may have exploited his gayness as a vulnerability.
His gayness, or that of anyone else with access to classified information, would most prominently come into play is as a fulcrum against the individual to disclose information in exchange for keeping the secret. That is why most intelligence agencies avoid recruiting individuals whose personal proclivities could be used to compromise them. However, the vulnerability could also be exploited by someone who provides an understanding, nonjudgmental shoulder to cry on.
From the looks of this mess, I don't think that Manning conceived and executed this plan on his own. I suspect that he had allusions of grandeur of being a whistle blower on the helicopter story. Whoever was blowing smoke up his ass (and other things) took advantage of that and played him to download everything he could. Even if this was the case, he is a traitor. Unless there is value in being used as double agents or bait, the prescription for dealing with traitors is pretty clear. However, we'll mount a criminal case against him and get some sort of jail term out of it. This is a military and national security issue not one of street crime.
There is no question that the military should have weeded him out before this and there is clearly something wrong with him having access to this level of material across so many agencies.
Like I said, if someone is gay, that is fine with me. I just do not think we should have gays in the US military.We are a nation of pussies. We let political correctness compromise our national security and shred the constitution. If we want to continue as a great nation, we need to protect ourselves. That means making tough decisions and taking swift action.
On a personal level, in the private and public sectors, outside of the realm of national defense, I don't think people should be discriminated against for being gay. I am not sure where I stand on gays in the military but I would tend to support the rank and file military opinion over that of politicians. I would need to better understand the true effects on readiness and effectiveness. I would also need to get my arms around the actual incidence rate of leaks attributable to gay personnel relative to straight to see if there is in fact a greater vulnerability.
However, being in the military isn't any old job. If you can't hack the physical and emotional elements of basic training, you're going to get bounced. Why shouldn't the military be able to use other factors to disqualify individuals from serving? The military should not be subject to the all of the same workplace requirements as 'regular' businesses. They have a specific job to do which requires some practices that wouldn't fly in the private sector. Whatever the correct answer is, the politicians will f*ck it up.
We are a nation of pussies. What good is it if you have all the money, fast cars and hot women draped all over you if you don't have a dick with which to fuck them?
Wild Walleye
12-02-10, 02:13
If one more stupid muther f*cker says that this wiener-leaks thing is a 1st amendment issue, I am going to bust.
The materials in question are not the opinions, ideas or the intellectual property of the 'publisher' nor are they 'expressions' of thought exposed by the publisher, rather they are the publication of stolen, classified material with the expressed intent of damaging America. Therefore, they would never fall under the first amendment.
If that isn't good enough for you, Assange is not a US citizen and therefore he is not entitled to first amendment protection.
http://canuckjihad.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/crybaby.png
Imagine mr bad that all of your business strategies and impression were made public on even AP? How would that effect your ability to function. We both knew of an apartment rental agency owner who actually demanded that management remove all references to their agency so when the name was googled, there would be no ties to AP.
Imagine trying to exist in this modern world with all "brain storming" and internal thoughts or impressions leaked? All governments do the sorts of things in these cables. What is the leaks push a nation into armed aggression or end diplomatic diolog because of coments or question like those about the argentine president?
Not a pretty picture. The leaker most likely is a man who swore an oath to the military voluntarily and then intentionally did every thing within his power to injure his country.
There are no whistling blowing CIA plots in this set of documents documents. The young man is not Daniel Elsberg-who blew the whistle on Richard Nixon's lies and participation in criminal or quasi-criminal activities.
This man is a traitor. The rule of law will provide his punishment
I understand what is being implied. If I were a lawyer, I don't think I would want my sex tourism habits to become a well known fact among my clients. That is why I would do my best to be as discrete as possible. But if I were to get caught, there isn't much I could complain about since I was in fact guilty of said behavior.
It's always embarrassing when you get caught with your pants down. Anger is probably the first or second reaction. Whoever did this should be prosecuted for passing along state secrets and they will probably do some jail time. But that is it. No need for a witch hunt. The government since 9-11 has apparently been very careless with whom they are willing to share all this sensitive information with.
From a historical point of view, this is a treasure trove of information that will be valuable for future generations. This also exposed some serious holes in our information sharing protocols. Better now than later. And we were just lucky this wasn't an actual double agent that could have, if acting maliciously, kept passing along this information covertly to our real enemies. Not the New York Times and The Guardian.
I'm guessing The New York Times and The Guardian should be prosecuted as well since they also passed along state secrets.
Imagine Mr Bad that all of your business strategies and impression were made public on even AP? How would that effect your ability to function. We both knew of an apartment rental agency owner who actually demanded that management remove all references to their agency so when the name was googled, there would be no ties to AP.
Imagine trying to exist in this modern world with all "brain storming" and internal thoughts or impressions leaked? All governments do the sorts of things in these cables. What is the leaks push a nation into armed aggression or end diplomatic diolog because of coments or question like those about the argentine president?
Not a pretty picture. The leaker most likely is a man who swore an oath to the military voluntarily and then intentionally did every thing within his power to injure his country.
There are no whistling blowing CIA plots in this set of documents documents. The young man is not Daniel Elsberg-who blew the whistle on Richard Nixon's lies and participation in criminal or quasi-criminal activities.
This man is a traitor. The rule of law will provide his punishmentWho are you, and how did you get Miami Bob's login info?
I'm guessing The New York Times and The Guardian should be prosecuted as well since they also passed along state secrets.To their credit, the Wall Street Journal declined to publish any of this classified information.
At least one newspaper in the USA has some integrity.
Thanks,
Jackson
I'd hardly call any of this information classified if a 21 year old kid with a handle like " BRADASS87 " was privy to it.
Have you actually read any of the 250, 000+ cables? The long term historical value cannot be overstated.
I've only read a small portion of it so far and it's quite fascinating. It really gives ordinary people an insight they might not otherwise have on Realpolitik. Our governments don't think we as citizens are entitled to know what they are doing with our tax dollars behind our backs. But at the end of the day, we as citizens are the ones that have to live with their decisions and their after effects, good or bad. For once we have a glimpse.
I understand Hannity and Beck's endless rambling banter might be enough for some, but others would like to know whats really going on in the world.
Stan Da Man
12-02-10, 14:56
To their credit, the Wall Street Journal declined to publish any of this classified information.
At least one newspaper in the USA has some integrity.
Thanks,
JacksonContrast that with the New York Times. The WSJ had to take pleasure in this vivid display of left wing hypocrisy:
New York Times editors, as cited in James Taranto's Best of the Web Today column at WSJ. Com, Nov. 29:
"The documents appear to have been acquired illegally and contain all manner of private information and statements that were never intended for the public eye, so they won't be posted here."—New York Times, on the Climategate emails, Nov. 20, 2009.
"The articles published today and in coming days are based on thousands of United States embassy cables, the daily reports from the field intended for the eyes of senior policy makers in Washington. . . . The Times believes that the documents serve an important public interest, illuminating the goals, successes, compromises and frustrations of American diplomacy in a way that other accounts cannot match."—New York Times, on the WikiLeaks documents, Nov. 29, 2010.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704679204575646842370376212.html
Wild Walleye
12-02-10, 20:31
But you are woefully misinformed.
I'd hardly call any of this information classified if a 21 year old kid with a handle like " BRADASS87 " was privy to it.The fact that the govt mistakenly placed its trust in this individual by granting him clearance to access to classified material does not magically re-categorize the material as declassified.
Have you actually read any of the 250, 000+ cables?Yes.
The long term historical value cannot be overstated.Yes it can. In fact, all of this hoopla is overstating the material value and consequence of the data contained within the leaked documents. What cannot be overstated is the severity of the crimes involved here: the theft and illegal dissemination of classified information. What if the materials leaked included the names of all of our covert agents around the world? What it the info had all of our confidential informants helping us against Al Qaeda? Very few people possess the authority to declassify information. There are processes through which that can be achieved.
I've only read a small portion of it so far and it's quite fascinating. It really gives ordinary people an insight they might not otherwise have on Realpolitik.The leaked materials shed little light on our diplomacy or how things work that the astute citizen can and should learn on his own volition, without the 'benefit' of illegally disseminated documents.
Our governments don't think we as citizens are entitled to know what they are doing with our tax dollars behind our backs.I haven't come across too many cables that can be directly tied to wasting taxpayer dollars on a magnitude that would match what congress does daily. That said, if you are referring to greater government accountability to the taxpayers, I am with you all the way.
There are excellent reasons for the government restricting access to certain information (UFOs, Marilyn Monroe's murder, the CIA's plot to get Jim Morrison, etc) and there are few good arguments for individual citizens to possess such information.
But at the end of the day, we as citizens are the ones that have to live with their decisions and their after effects, good or bad. For once we have a glimpse.I'd rather have all of the illegal, backroom dealings of the house and senate, as they relate to the passage of Obamacare splashed all over the front page.
I understand Hannity and Beck's endless rambling banter might be enough for some, but others would like to know whats really going on in the world.I'm not sure what Beck or Hannity has to do with this issue. Were either of them implicated in leaking the information? I must have missed that.
What is going on in the world? Will China green-light a unified Korean Peninsula if they are assured US influence won't pass the 38th Parallel? Did the US mount the ddos attack on the wikileaks servers? Why do the good die young? Will steroids ruin baseball? There are so many unanswered questions. Are you going to sit around and wait for Julian Assange to answer them all for you?
No offense but.
TL. dR.
I don't subscribe to your narrow viewpoint so I will just agree to disagree.
Stan Da Man
12-02-10, 21:09
I spent a few hours reading a bunch of the cables from Ambassadors and others in Brazil and Argentina. Frankly, I was surprised at how little Useful information there was. Virtually everything I've seen was something that either could have been gleaned independently from the news if you were paying attention, that you would have known if you were even modestly informed of world events (e. G, the US doesn't like Chavez and will seek to ally with nations against him or steer non-allys away from him) or that you would have predicted if you had to guess.
There is the odd tidbit like comments and questions about Cristina's mental health or how a disgruntled former Kirchner aid characterized Nestor as a monster and a coward. But, that stuff adds up to next to nothing. The stuff I've read on Latin America, at least the two countries mentioned above, is anything but a treasure trove. It's a yawn-fest.
I saw a blog in Brazil that was recounting a bunch of the cables and saying that it was invaluable that this information came out because the United States government had been keeping its citizens in the dark for too long about how it was trying to stem the Pink Tide In Latin America, that is, Chavez and socialism in general. But, those comments are a perfect example of how misguided folks outside the USA are. These issues are well-publicized in the United States. Since well before Daniel Ortega, there has been extensive coverage of efforts to halt the spread of socialism / communism / Chavism or whatever you want to call it. It's just not news. No one's in the dark.
I agree that whoever leaked this stuff is a traitor, and ought to be caught and dealt with like a spy. But, I'd have a lot more sympathy for him / her if he / she had given us the "good" stuff. The best of the best so far wouldn't even outrank a dull Mexican telenovela.
Wild Walleye
12-02-10, 21:38
I spent a few hours reading a bunch of the cables from Ambassadors and others in Brazil and Argentina. Frankly, I was surprised at how little Useful information there was. Virtually everything I've seen was something that either could have been gleaned independently from the news if you were paying attention, that you would have known if you were even modestly informed of world events (e. G, the US doesn't like Chavez and will seek to ally with nations against him or steer non-allys away from him) or that you would have predicted if you had to guess.
There is the odd tidbit like comments and questions about Cristina's mental health or how a disgruntled former Kirchner aid characterized Nestor as a monster and a coward. But, that stuff adds up to next to nothing. The stuff I've read on Latin America, at least the two countries mentioned above, is anything but a treasure trove. It's a yawn-fest. You have to consider the source (State Department. For the State Department to function properly (as it relates to foreign policy) , that is to kiss lots of foreign ass and avoid stepping on anyone's toes, they need to know which asses to kiss and where the toes are that need to be avoided. The notion that gathering basic information about other countries constitutes espionage shows how little the public knows about what is espionage and what is not. Domestically, State serves as a refuge for left-leaning policy wonks who enjoy getting in the way of our national defense and to create legal problems for innocent WH staffers (a la Richard Armitage.
I agree that whoever leaked this stuff is a traitor, and ought to be caught and dealt with like a spy. But, I'd have a lot more sympathy for him / her if he / she had given us the "good" stuff.I think we all should be thankful that this scumbag didn't have clearance for and / or access to the 'good stuff'
The best of the best so far wouldn't even outrank a dull Mexican telenovela.I would have to say that it was better to discover these weaknesses in the protection of classified material via a dump of State Department soap operas than through the publication of sensitive material from a department or agency that actually does something for our national defense.
Bad, I believe that both you and Manning disagree with my position on classified information. In his case, that will likely result in 50+ years in Leavenworth.
I think 50 years in Leavenworth's is a little light in terms of sentencing. As STRONG message needs to be sent to all the asshats that would consider betraying their country to some douche of a website like wikileaks. They need the death penalty. Anyone even considering leaking something would think about it before passing state secrets to anyone if we actually followed through with the death penalty.
Now let me clarify something. I am all for open and honest transparency with the government (businesses can figure it out for themselves. Someone can get fired but big deal, but there are certain things within the government that needs to be kept out of the public purview, simply because most of the general public doesn't have enough common sense or intelligence to understand anything that's told to them, hence the need for other groups telling them how to vote.
The moment any single person dies as a result of the leaked information, blood is on the hands of the leaker, the website (screw Wikileaks first amendment rights, last time I checked he wasn't a citizen and not entitled to our constitutional rights, and the person that acts on that information.
Should the government do some of the things it does? No, but placing someone in harms way does not justify outting him or the government.
The sum of all parts equates to Bureaucratic Balderdash.
Jack.
Contrast that with the New York Times. The WSJ had to take pleasure in this vivid display of left wing hypocrisy:
New York Times editors, as cited in James Taranto's Best of the Web Today column at WSJ. Com, Nov. 29:
"The documents appear to have been acquired illegally and contain all manner of private information and statements that were never intended for the public eye, so they won't be posted here."—New York Times, on the Climategate emails, Nov. 20, 2009.
"The articles published today and in coming days are based on thousands of United States embassy cables, the daily reports from the field intended for the eyes of senior policy makers in Washington. . . . The Times believes that the documents serve an important public interest, illuminating the goals, successes, compromises and frustrations of American diplomacy in a way that other accounts cannot match."—New York Times, on the WikiLeaks documents, Nov. 29, 2010.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704679204575646842370376212.html
I think 50 years in Leavenworth's is a little light in terms of sentencing. As STRONG message needs to be sent to all the asshats that would consider betraying their country to some douche of a website like wikileaks. They need the death penalty. Anyone even considering leaking something would think about it before passing state secrets to anyone if we actually followed through with the death penalty.
Now let me clarify something. I am all for open and honest transparency with the government (businesses can figure it out for themselves. Someone can get fired but big deal, but there are certain things within the government that needs to be kept out of the public purview, simply because most of the general public doesn't have enough common sense or intelligence to understand anything that's told to them, hence the need for other groups telling them how to vote.
The moment any single person dies as a result of the leaked information, blood is on the hands of the leaker, the website (screw Wikileaks first amendment rights, last time I checked he wasn't a citizen and not entitled to our constitutional rights, and the person that acts on that information.
Should the government do some of the things it does? No, but placing someone in harms way does not justify outting him or the government. The guy's a "Hero" in my book and it takes huges "Ball's" to do what he did. He's risked his life and freedom to shine a light on the lie's our Government tell's us and the World. We as a Nation pay a price for it everyday.
40 years ago Daniel Ellsberg did something similar in publishing the Pentagon Papers, it was the start of the end of the Vietnam War. Hopefully these Wikileaks will be something similar.
It doesn't Take Any brains To Be Stupid
Exon
It doesn't Take Any brains To Be Stupid
ExonApparently it doesn't take any brains to post incoherent nonsense on a forum either.
Wild Walleye
12-03-10, 13:55
If we are to empower the individual, every individual, to decide which laws he will follow, we will quickly devolve into anarchy.
I think 50 years in Leavenworth's is a little light in terms of sentencing. As STRONG message needs to be sent to all the asshats that would consider betraying their country to some douche of a website like wikileaks. They need the death penalty. Anyone even considering leaking something would think about it before passing state secrets to anyone if we actually followed through with the death penalty.Thus, my statement that we are a nation of pussies.
The law is pretty clear as to the remedies for espionage, sedition and treason. In time of war, there are cases where it is acceptable to dispense with due process and remediate the problem on the sport (I. E. Put a bullet in the traitor's head) . It is pretty clear that if the charges are true, Manning willfully retained classified information for the purposes of unauthorized disclosure, which would make him guilty of violating the Espionage Act of 1917. Further, under the Act, the Postmaster General has the authority to refuse to mail or to impound publications that he determined to be in violation of its prohibitions. A modern-day extension of this notion would probably empower the US Govt to mount something like the huge and awesomely-prolonged ddos attack that has shut down the wiener-leaks URL. The Sedition ACT of 1918, is really a misnomer, in reality it isn't and Act rather just a series of amendments attached to the Espionage Act. FYI, In Schenck v. United States (adjudicated in 1919) the USA Supreme Court unanimously ruled that the Espionage Act of 1917 did not violate the free speech rights of those convicted under its provisions. With such a clear cut case (theoretically) he should be prosecuted under the ACT. So far he has only been charged with violation of articles 92 and 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The former is 'Failure to obey order or regulation' and the latter is a more general article that can be cited in multiple instances. Why isn't the administration directing one of the US attorneys to prosecute under the ACT? Espionage is a capital offense.
However, I believe that it is unlikely that the administration will nail Manning on treason, sedition or espionage they'd rather get him on lesser charges, thus avoiding the whole messy subject of truly holding someone accountable for their actions. Besides, Obama and the left hate our military and intelligence capabilities, so in private, they probably support the leaks. Bad and Manning are not alone in believing that it is perfectly appropriate to divulge national secrets if it suits your agenda or scratches your personal itch. Others like Sen. Pat Leahy (Dem-VT, Dick Durbin (Dem-Il) , Jay Rockefeller (Dem-WV, Harry Reid (Dem-NV) and Ron Wyden (Dem-OR) are no doubt in your club, too.
While the temptation to sell secrets for profit may entice individuals of any political leaning, leaking information that jeopardizes our national security for political gain or to hurt America is the domain of the Left. The left loves leakers, so long as the information divulged is harmful to our intelligence or military communities and capabilities or damages conservatives. Without a doubt, one of our gravest national security weaknesses is granting anyone on the Left with access to classified information.
Leahy is a notorious leaker who abused his position of power and was responsible for one of the most serious leaks ever from the Senate Intelligence Committee. In addition to Leaky Leahy, there is no shortage of examples of Lefties leaking and other lefties bleating that they should not be held responsible for their actions. In 2005, Senators Durbin, Rockefeller and Wyden leaked secret information regarding CIA black ops. Leaks that the defense Department claimed "may have seriously compromised national security'. Again in 2005, Reid divulged top secret information in a television interview. When in 2006, a Democrat congressional staffer was suspended for leaking the National Security Estimate (in an effort to damage Bush) the lefties on the Hill were screaming that the action, to deny the staffer continued access to classified information while the investigation was ongoing, was "appalling" and that the staffers clearances should be immediately reinstated. Why aren't they calling for Manning to be reinstated until his case is settled? Because he's just a leaker and not one of their leakers. Convicted leaker Samuel Loring Morison was pardoned by President Clinton. The State Department, which suffers from chronic leftism, is a perpetual leak-factory seeking to either damage Republic presidents or protect its turf from other federal agencies. Daniel Ellsberg and Lawrence Franklin also come to mind.
If it is OK for all these senators to leak information, far more sensitive than that Manning is accused of leaking, without consequences (they are all still Senators and not in Leavenworth, where they belong) how then can we mete out the appropriate sentence to Manning?
While the Obama administration has vowed zero tolerance for leaking, they have yet to hold anyone accountable. Further, it is unlikely that being held 'accountable' in Obama-speak will resemble what main stream Americans believe is justice.
LOL.
Jackson said it best. He has all the right people seething. He must be doing something right. .
WW. I think you and I are on the same page. Reid and his ilk need to be thrown in prison but that will never happen. I forget which assclown actually kicked off the whole bank crisis, but he let slip that multiple banks were underwater and unable to stay in business according to whatever test they use. Yet immediately prior to that report they were still operating and would have stayed in business but for the fact that people got scared and pulled their money out. This was the match that lit the fire, so to speak.
Exon. No, intelligent would have meant doing it and not getting caught. If you want to leak something fine, leak something, but take the responsibility to redact it and not put other people in harms way. Are there things our government shouldn't be doing? Hell yes. Should they be outted? Damn straight. But to put individuals in harms way to accomplish your goal is nothing but shit.
Wild Walleye
12-03-10, 18:52
LOL.
Jackson said it best. He has all the right people seething. He must be doing something right. . There is nothing in any of my post that would indicate a state of seething. While I am passionate about my country and the safety, well being and freedom of its people, my comments about the cable leaks, Assange, Manning and other leakers have been purely dispassionate. My strong feelings on how these criminals should be treated are based upon belief in the integrity of the Constitution and the rule of law, not emotion.
Julian Assange has done a Heroic thing and put his life in danger in doing so. As mentioned below he's "Pissed Off All the Right CockSuckers, So He Must Have Done Something Right". But the real hero is that little Army private that leaked the memos to Wikileaks, his life is over, for now anyway. He's your Spy and Espionage agent if you will, not Julian Assange.
Assange is not an American citizen if You remember, he's a "Auzze" and owe's nothing to the American Government. He's "Not" committed a treasonous act against the United States, he's simply published the "Truth". Anyone thats afraid of the "Truth" is one "Dumb MotherFucker", as said before,"The Truth Will Set You Free"
Nugget you go right on thinking the way you do and your beloved Government will have us all living in slavery. Keep believing in what those MotherFuckers tell You in the papers and T. V. Keep watching FOX television and lap up all that propaganda. Keep letting the United States of America Fuck everyone in the Ass. Its no wonder we're hated by half the world and they want to Kill us.
Exon
P.S. You too Wild Walleye
The guy's a "Hero" in my book and it takes huges "Ball's" to do what he did. He's risked his life and freedom to shine a light on the lie's our Government tell's us and the World. We as a Nation pay a price for it everyday.
40 years ago Daniel Ellsberg did something similar in publishing the Pentagon Papers, it was the start of the end of the Vietnam War. Hopefully these Wikileaks will be something similar.
It doesn't Take Any brains To Be Stupid
ExonI think it will be the beginning of something big, but it will probably result in less freedom and transparency.
The US Government, led by Jowels Lieberman, has already managed to strong arm US companies into refusing to provide DNS service to Wikileaks. Various politicos have called publicly for his assassination.
Ironic how when several thousands of pages of these same leaks were first published six months ago, which could have been embarrassing to Bush, no one in the administration seemed to have a problem with it. Now that the rest was put out that is embarrassing to O-Bam-a it's an outrage! Maybe if the worthless douche bag would have addressed the issue instead of politicizing it to his advantage when it first happened, we wouldn't be running around trying to cover our ass now.
Maybe if the worthless douche bag would have addressed the issue instead of politicizing it to his advantage when it first happened...Addressed what issue?
As mentioned below he's "Pissed Off All the Right CockSuckers, So He Must Have Done Something Right".More idiotic logic from the forum's class clown.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed "Pissed off" the same group (the American citizens) of people too. Would your say that he "Must Have Done Something Right" also?
Exon, you're a fucking idiot.
Thanks,
Jackson
LOL.
Jackson said it best. He has all the right people seething. He must be doing something right. I never made that statement about Julian Assange, and I'll thank you to retract your assertion that I did.
He's risked his life and freedom to shine a light on the lie's our Government tell's us and the World. We as a Nation pay a price for it everyday.
40 years ago Daniel Ellsberg did something similar in publishing the Pentagon Papers, it was the start of the end of the Vietnam War. Hopefully these Wikileaks will be something similar. Exon, you ignorant su*ut.
There's no comparison between Daniel Ellsberg and Julian Assange.
Daniel Ellsberg published documents that contravened the official accounts of the situation in Vietnam that the US Government was foisting on the American people. At the time, our government was lying to us, and he published the actual facts with the intent of exposing those lies.
Julian Assange published internal communications between US Government officials for the purpose of sabotaging our government's legitimate efforts to conduct our foreign policy. They were not published with the intent of righting some government coverup or exposing any government malfeasance.
Of course, some people are just too fucking stupid to understand the difference.
Thanks,
Jackson
Wild Walleye
12-03-10, 22:31
Julian Assange has done a Heroic thingOne man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. There are many people (not me) to whom the 911 high jackers are heros.
and put his life in danger in doing so.Yes. Actions have consequences.
Please don't kid yourself into thinking Assange is some sort of white night. He's been a self-aggrandizing dirtbag his entire life. He didn't do this to save the world or expose the lies of the great satan. This is all about personal agendas and personal gain. He would certainly publish something that exposed you and your family to certain death without a second thought, if it served his agenda.
As mentioned below he's "Pissed Off All the Right CockSuckers, So He Must Have Done Something Right".As pointed out below, that includes most of the US population.
But the real hero is that little Army private that leaked the memos to Wikileaks, his life is over, for now anyway. What was it you were saying about cocksuckers?
One man's hero is another man's terrorist.
He's your Spy and Espionage agent if you will, not Julian Assange.Of course. I have never stated that Assange was a spy. However, he certainly encourages individuals to break the law for his own personal gain, but he's no spy.
Assange is not an American citizen if You remember, he's a "Auzze" and owe's nothing to the American Government. He's "Not" committed a treasonous act against the United States,Clearly I recall that, since I made that point some time ago. I am not sure how he could "owe" anything to the US, unless he generates revenue, or purchases goods or services, on US soil, then he would most likely owe some sort of tax. I would be more than happy to facilitate him purchasing something on US soil. I'd even pay for his airline ticket. He is however, bound by the laws of many different countries, those where he is physically present and others where he is not.
The flip side of your argument is the point that I made earlier. He is not a US citizen. Therefore, he is not entitled to Constitutional protections. I'd vote for giving him an all expense paid trip to the islands. Diego Garcia or Gitmo would be my choices. I have heard that it is difficult to maintain a snooty disposition when upside down with a mouth, esophagus and nasal cavity full of water.
he's simply published the "Truth". Anyone thats afraid of the "Truth" is one "Dumb MotherFucker", as said before,"The Truth Will Set You Free" The "truth"? The "truth?" You can't handle the truth.
Nugget you go right on thinking the way you do and your beloved Government will have us all living in slavery. Keep believing in what those MotherFuckers tell You in the papers and T. V. Keep watching FOX television and lap up all that propaganda.Considering Obama and the left have driven us quite a way down the road to serfdom and Fox seems to oppose Obama, your statement appears counter intuitive.
Keep letting the United States of America Fuck everyone in the Ass. Its no wonder we're hated by half the world and they want to Kill us.But the other half loves us.
You too Wild WalleyeMe too what?
Exon, you ignorant su*ut.
There's no comparison between Daniel Ellsberg and Julian Assange.
Daniel Ellsberg published documents that contravened the official accounts of the situation in Vietnam that the US Government was foisting on the American people. At the time, our government was lying to us, and he published the actual facts with the intent of exposing those lies.
Julian Assange published internal communications between US Government officials for the purpose of sabotaging our government's legitimate efforts to conduct our foreign policy. They were not published with the intent of righting some government coverup or exposing any government malfeasance.
Of course, some people are just too fucking stupid to understand the difference.
Thanks,
JacksonWith apologies to buddy Exon, and turning my leftist ID card face down, I agree with Jackson. There is no comparison, though I am saving most of my ire for the scumbag who initially set the cables free. My guess is that Manning is some immature, disaffected, attention seeking idiot. He may, or may not have had, some misguided idea that he was engaged in some noble act. I don't know and it doesn't matter.
In the end, I think as regards the "damage" done, it will be pretty close to much ado about nothing. Much of the sensational stuff is just that,"sensational" near tabloid shit. This is what you get when you let loose a bunch of speculation and malarkey manufactured by "middle management" bureaucrats who got nothing better to do with their time.
This is boring horseshit compared to the Pentagon Papers.
Wild Walleye
12-03-10, 22:54
There is no comparison,While both Ellsberg and Manning committed (alleged in Manning's case) crimes against America that violate the Espionage Act of 1917, the similarities end there. If Manning had Ellsberg's clearance, we'd be dealing with much more serious scenarios.
though I am saving most of my ire for the scumbag who initially set the cables free. My guess is that Manning is some immature, disaffected, attention seeking idiot. He may, or may not have had, some misguided idea that he was engaged in some noble act.That is precisely why, I believe that there is more to the story. Someone played this dipshit. They preyed upon his vulnerabilities and played to his vanities. The how is a lot less important than the who. If the who was Assange, he is in deep doo doo (as we say down at the dog pound).
In the end, I think as regards the "damage" done, it will be pretty close to much ado about nothing. Much of the sensational stuff is just that,"sensational" near tabloid shit. This is what you get when you let loose a bunch of speculation and malarkey manufactured by "middle management" bureaucrats who got nothing better to do with their time.Yes it is. Conveniently for Obama, it got the naked body scanners and invasive searches off the front page. He is woefully silent on this issue.
This is boring horseshit compared to the Pentagon Papers.So far the difference in casualties is about 58K
Julian Assange has done a Heroic thing and put his life in danger in doing so. As mentioned below he's "Pissed Off All the Right CockSuckers, So He Must Have Done Something Right". Assange may or may not be a hero. I'll go with WW on this one, one man's hero is another man's terrorist. I think Assange is more narcissistic and attention seeking than the moralistic champion he claims to be. He was he would have done a better job redacting the names out of all the documents he posted. What he did was utterly irresponsible, and at the end of the day, any single person who dies as a result of the postings. Their blood is on his hands.
But the real hero is that little Army private that leaked the memos to Wikileaks, his life is over, for now anyway. He's your Spy and Espionage agent if you will, not Julian Assange.No, he's just your run of the mill gullible dumbass that someone talked into doing something that went against his own interest, his future interest, and the interest of his nation. If you do not support America, don't be in that type job.
Assange is not an American citizen if You remember, he's a "Auzze" and owe's nothing to the American Government. He's "Not" committed a treasonous act against the United States, he's simply published the "Truth". Anyone thats afraid of the "Truth" is one "Dumb MotherFucker", as said before,"The Truth Will Set You Free" The problem Exon is defining the truth. Are there things our government shouldn't be involved in? Absolutely! Is Odumbo better than Bush? Fuck no. He's probably even worse, if not for the simple fact that he campaigned on ending the wars and open and honest government. This government hasn't done anything openly or honestly and is only seeking to further usurp our freedoms.
Nugget you go right on thinking the way you do and your beloved Government will have us all living in slavery. Keep believing in what those MotherFuckers tell You in the papers and T. V. Keep watching FOX television and lap up all that propaganda. Keep letting the United States of America Fuck everyone in the Ass. Its no wonder we're hated by half the world and they want to Kill us.Fuck this government. I think the government should be MUCH smaller and should most certainly stay the fuck out of my life and everyone elses. Good luck with that. Too many dumbasses think bigger government is better. Bigger only means more legalese and red tape to keep people from getting shit accomplished. Do I watch Fox? Yes. I also watch and read CNN, MSNBC and several others on a regular basis because no one news source reports all of the news correctly.
At the end of the day the question boils down to this. Did the little Army private break the law? Yes. Should he be punished? Yes. We can't pick and choose the laws we want to enforce and not enforce. However, with that statement in mind, this administration is great at picking which laws to follow and not. Just look at Geithner and Rangel. Both committed crimes that should keep their out of their respective offices, but not a damn thing will be done to either of them; yet we will stick Snipes in jail. That's justice for ya.
You are correct, you made that statement about Palin. But the same principal applies here.
I never made that statement about Julian Assange, and I'll thank you to retract your assertion that I did.
The people who are pissed off are the people who have been embarrassed by the leak. The governments of many different countries, in other words, the powerful elite.
They are the ones that are angry as hell. And they are doing their best through the media to stir up a frenzy and you and others are simply buying into it.
These aren't nuclear launch codes or the names of covert agents that were releases, stop pretending that they were. These were simply truthful candid communications between our government and the governments of various different countries regarding current events.
The American citizens that are " pissed off " are actually reading the cables. Yeah, so pissed off about this security breach that they are helping themselves to the material.
Hypocrisy and feigned indignation? I think so.
More idiotic logic from the forum's class clown.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed "Pissed off" the same group (the American citizens) of people too. Would your say that he "Must Have Done Something Right" also?
Exon, you're a fucking idiot.
Thanks,
Jackson
The people who are pissed off are the people who have been embarrassed by the leak. The governments of many different countries, in other words, the powerful elite.
They are the ones that are angry as hell. And they are doing their best through the media to stir up a frenzy and you and others are simply buying into it.
These aren't nuclear launch codes or the names of covert agents that were releases, stop pretending that they were. These were simply truthful candid communications between our government and the governments of various different countries regarding current events.
The American citizens that are " pissed off " are actually reading the cables. Yeah, so pissed off about this security breach that they are helping themselves to the material.
Hypocrisy and feigned indignation? I think so. Like the title says, Epic Fail. This isn't the first of all the leaks, and easily won't be the last. The first batch of information released were mission reports, top secret intel reports, covert intel provided by informants, etc. The Cable leaks are just the lastest in a large release, and of which I don't think the private is responsible for. There are other leakers than need to have their dicks chopped off.
Like the title says, Epic Fail. This isn't the first of all the leaks, and easily won't be the last. The first batch of information released were mission reports, top secret intel reports, covert intel provided by informants, etc. The Cable leaks are just the lastest in a large release, and of which I don't think the private is responsible for. There are other leakers than need to have their dicks chopped off.We could do like Richard Nixon did and hire some "Plumbers" too fix the Leaks.
Exon
I just got to BA and I am going out to see if I can find some leaks to plug with my cable. Screw the Cable leaks.
Please tell me how a lonely private could possibly gain / have access to volumes of sensitive State Secrets? The whole Intelligence community in the USA is a Dog and Pony Show. Argentina Private probably has better computer security than the NSA. We are fucked.
Helmut Metzner admitted acting as a mole for the US embassy during negotiations to form a government.
Source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/03/wikileaks-first-scalp-german-aide)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/03/wikileaks-first-scalp-german-aide
The WikiLeaks revelations have claimed their first political scalp in Europe with the sacking of the German foreign minister's chief of staff, who acted as a mole for the Americans, keeping the US embassy in Berlin posted last year on the confidential negotiations to form Angela Merkel's new government.
Amid a mood of increasing anger in the German political class at the disparaging observations on the chancellor's cabinet from US officials, a liberal MP today demanded the withdrawal of the American ambassador in Berlin, Philip Murphy.
Guido Westerwelle, the German foreign minister and leader of the liberal Free Democrats, the junior partner in the Merkel coalition, is described unflatteringly in the US cables from Berlin as inexperienced,"exuberant" and "wild".
The cables relate how an FDP insider – "a fly on the wall, a young, up-and-coming party loyalist who was taking notes during the marathon talks" – delivered documents to the US embassy and kept US diplomats informed on the new government formation in October last year.
On Monday Westerwelle dismissed the reports as false and insisted there was no mole. But Helmut Metzner, his chief of staff, was sacked after admitting he was the source of the US intelligence.
"The staff member of the FDP's federal headquarters, who has admitted his contacts with the US embassy in Berlin, has been relieved of his duties as chief of staff for the FDP chairman," said a party statement.
Hans-Michael Goldmann, an FDP MP, told the Bildzeitung newspaper today that a German ambassador abroad behaving like Murphy would be promptly "called home". He added that Murphy had failed to apologise for the scandal.
Assange just became an even bigger asshat by releasing over 250,000 documents, unredacted and saying that if anyone takes his website offline he will release the code to open them. What a fucking narcissistic pole.
Assange just became an even bigger asshat by releasing over 250,000 documents, unredacted and saying that if anyone takes his website offline he will release the code to open them. What a fucking narcissistic pole.Welllll Nugget, so much for free speech and governments supposedly acting in the interests of its constituents. I take the view that transparency and directness are greatly lacking in today's world. That piece of shit, Kissinger, hated the people at large being privy to intergovernment diplomacy. Since he achieved exactly fuck-all for America while he was Secretary of State, maybe Assange's commitment to transparency might achieve more. And besides, Assange has broken no laws either in the USA or elsewhere that I am aware off. Three cheers if he pulls it off. His poison pill will focus a few of the minds of US State department officials.
Argento
Assange has broken no laws either in the USA or elsewhere that I am aware off.Huh?
How about Theft of classified US Government documents, for starters.
Assange just became an even bigger asshat by releasing over 250,000 documents, unredacted and saying that if anyone takes his website offline he will release the code to open them. What a fucking narcissistic pole.Just to keep things factual, Assange's "insurance file" that your speaking of was released back in July of this year.
For those of you who think that Private Manning and Julian Assange are heros, consider this analogy:
Some American citizens don't like their government. Okay, I get it. Fine. So criticize the coach, chastise the players, berate the management, advocate for a change in personnel, cancel your season tickets, stop attending the games, don't buy the merchandise, etc., etc., etc. But whatever you do, don't pretend to assuage your displeasure with their performance by giving their playbook to all the other teams, because all that does is hurt our team's chances of winning the game.
Unless, of course, you're actually rooting for the other team.
Get it?
Thanks,
Jackson
From some of the comments, they may be rooting against the USA.
Huh?
How about Theft of classified US Government documents, for starters. Assange didn't steal any documents. Private Manning copied documents that he was cleared to view and handed them off to Assange. Assange in turn handed them off to The New York Times, The Guardian, Derl Speigel etc. They all in turn disseminated the information to the rest of the media.
If Assange is guilty of a crime then so is The New York Times et al.
Wild Walleye
12-06-10, 13:38
Assange in turn handed them off to The New York Times, The Guardian, Derl Speigel etc. They all in turn disseminated the information to the rest of the media.
If Assange is guilty of a crime then so is The New York Times et al. Now you're getting the picture.
Assange didn't steal any documents. Private Manning copied documents that he was cleared to view and handed them off to Assange.There is considerable bouncing back and forth between emotion and the real world, on this subject. I will leave the emotional realm to those of you who think rouge actors should be allowed self-determination as to which legal code, if any, they should be held accountable.
As far as the real world, let's get a couple of things straight.
No one has said that Assange actually stole the documents. The fact that he personally didn't perpetrate the theft does not absolve him from complicity or guilt. If this were the case, Nixon would not have needed to resign (sticking with the Nixon reference).
The fact that Manning had access to the documents does not mean that he was cleared to view them. In fact, the case against Manning probably should include more than 250, 000 counts of illegally accessing files. Nine Ohio state workers were nailed for illegally accessing Obama's files and three US State Department workers / contractors wound up in deep shit for accessing files regarding the passport records of McCain, Clinton and Obama, during the last presidential election cycle. All of the aforementioned individuals had legal access to the systems, all broke the law when they accessed files not specifically germane to their tasks.
Knowing receipt of and benefit from the distribution of stolen property is a crime in some places, including the US. Otherwise, fencing stolen goods would be legal.
You don't have to physically be present in the US (or other nations) to run afoul of US law.
Assange is not a US citizen. All that means is that he is not entitled to Constitutional protections. That does not mean that he is free to act with impunity as it relates to US public and private interests.
Adding and abetting a crime is still against the law.
However, in my opinion, the 'insurance file' is the slam dunk on putting Assange in jail.
He has already admitted to knowingly accepted a stolen hard drive from Bank of America and that he intends to us private proprietary information contained within the stolen material, as well as stolen information from BP and other companies, for purposes of extortion. Extortion is illegal in the US and the UK.
Additionally, he has made it known that the 'insurance file' includes non-redacted military and intelligence information. If the material outs any US undercover agents or assets, he will be guilty of violating the Foreign Intelligence and Identities Act.
I am willing to bet that those of you who think Manning and Assange are heroes probably thought Scooter LIbby should have received the death penalty for 'outing' Valarie Plame (he did nothing of the sort).
Again, I miss the days of olde (pre-Church Commission) when we as a nation had the sack to remediate problems like this before they metastasized into major issues.
Lot of mud being stirred up here but related to completely different issues. So far Jackson thinks the releases are giving an advantage to America's enemies, Wild Walleye mixes everything from Nixon, Watergate et al and Miami Bob thinks that I ought not to have an opinion and more than likely, because I am not a US citizen, I am a fifth columnist acting against America's interests. What a crock of shit. The deceitfulness of US foreign policy for the past 30 years has underminded the esteem it was held in. A bit of transparency and light may be the catalyst to shake up the State Department to realize that the world has moved on and the issues are no longer things to be kept secret from the masses. Which of course is the whole purpose of WikiLeaks.
And for the record, I am on the side of the USA but that is not to say that at times I have to shake my head in disbelief at the cack-handed way they conduct foreign policy and go to physical war as a way to resolve political issues. I am just so glad that my children haven't had to die in a ditch over some piece of rock and sand that some faceless prick nominated as a 'must take' and 'must hold' Get used to it, the internet will increasingly make it impossible for governments to be 2 faced in their intergovernment dealings and the faceless pricks will be 'outed'.
Argento
Wild Walleye
12-06-10, 17:55
Lot of mud being stirred up here but related to completely different issues. So far Jackson thinks the releases are giving an advantage to America's enemies, Wild Walleye mixes everything from Nixon, Watergate et al I am not the one who originally brought up Nixon.
and Miami Bob thinks that I ought not to have an opinion and more than likely, because I am not a US citizen, I am a fifth columnist acting against America's interests. What a crock of shit.I don't think that was what Bob said. I think he was pointing out that not all commentators come from the same general perspective of US citizens.
The deceitfulness of US foreign policy for the past 30 years has underminded the esteem it was held in.Grow up. What do you think foreign policy is? Which country do you hold up as an example of really transparent and honest via foreign policy? Argentina? Cuba? Russia? Venezuela?
A bit of transparency and light may be the catalyst to shake up the State Department to realize that the world has moved on and the issues are no longer things to be kept secret from the masses.If there are to be no state secrets, could start with the details of Iran's and North Korea's nuclear programs?
Which of course is the whole purpose of WikiLeaks.That is what Assange would like you to think. In fact, it isn't.
And for the record, I am on the side of the USA but that is not to say that at times I have to shake my head in disbelief at the cack-handed way they conduct foreign policy and go to physical war as a way to resolve political issues.Me too. I shake my head wondering why we don't stand up to certain global dirtbags.
I am just so glad that my children haven't had to die in a ditch over some piece of rock and sand that some faceless prick nominated as a 'must take' and 'must hold' Who needs to let go of the outdated vietnam cliches?
Get used to it, the internet will increasingly make it impossible for governments to be 2 faced in their intergovernment dealings and the faceless pricks will be 'outed'.Modern electronic means of disseminating information make policing one's own data more difficult, not impossible. Nor will such distribution capabilities alter the longstanding legal and ethical premise that people entrusted with confidential information shall either keep it confidential or face the consequences.
Now you're getting the picture.
There is considerable bouncing back and forth between emotion and the real world, on this subject. I will leave the emotional realm to those of you who think rouge actors should be allowed self-determination as to which legal code, if any, they should be held accountable.
As far as the real world, let's get a couple of things straight.
No one has said that Assange actually stole the documents. The fact that he personally didn't perpetrate the theft does not absolve him from complicity or guilt. If this were the case, Nixon would not have needed to resign (sticking with the Nixon reference).
The fact that Manning had access to the documents does not mean that he was cleared to view them. In fact, the case against Manning probably should include more than 250, 000 counts of illegally accessing files. Nine Ohio state workers were nailed for illegally accessing Obama's files and three US State Department workers / contractors wound up in deep shit for accessing files regarding the passport records of McCain, Clinton and Obama, during the last presidential election cycle. All of the aforementioned individuals had legal access to the systems, all broke the law when they accessed files not specifically germane to their tasks.
Knowing receipt of and benefit from the distribution of stolen property is a crime in some places, including the US. Otherwise, fencing stolen goods would be legal.
You don't have to physically be present in the US (or other nations) to run afoul of US law.
Assange is not a US citizen. All that means is that he is not entitled to Constitutional protections. That does not mean that he is free to act with impunity as it relates to US public and private interests.
Adding and abetting a crime is still against the law.
However, in my opinion, the 'insurance file' is the slam dunk on putting Assange in jail.
He has already admitted to knowingly accepted a stolen hard drive from Bank of America and that he intends to us private proprietary information contained within the stolen material, as well as stolen information from BP and other companies, for purposes of extortion. Extortion is illegal in the US and the UK.
Additionally, he has made it known that the 'insurance file' includes non-redacted military and intelligence information. If the material outs any US undercover agents or assets, he will be guilty of violating the Foreign Intelligence and Identities Act.
I am willing to bet that those of you who think Manning and Assange are heroes probably thought Scooter LIbby should have received the death penalty for 'outing' Valarie Plame (he did nothing of the sort).
Again, I miss the days of olde (pre-Church Commission) when we as a nation had the sack to remediate problems like this before they metastasized into major issues.
I am not the one who originally brought up Nixon.
I don't think that was what Bob said. I think he was pointing out that not all commentators come from the same general perspective of US citizens.
Grow up. What do you think foreign policy is? Which country do you hold up as an example of really transparent and honest via foreign policy? Argentina? Cuba? Russia? Venezuela?
If there are to be no state secrets, could start with the details of Iran's and North Korea's nuclear programs?
That is what Assange would like you to think. In fact, it isn't.
Me too. I shake my head wondering why we don't stand up to certain global dirtbags.
Who needs to let go of the outdated vietnam cliches?
Modern electronic means of disseminating information make policing one's own data more difficult, not impossible. Nor will such distribution capabilities alter the longstanding legal and ethical premise that people entrusted with confidential information shall either keep it confidential or face the consequences. Once again, you use a machine-gun to prevent a point of view that is different from yours being discussed. I do think this forum can handle plurality of views without the insistent rat-a tat tat of your views. Another question, even though you haven't answered my question on what law has Assange broken. But an adenda to that question. In what jurisdiction? Since when did the laws of the USA mean that they apply anywhere else in the world to non-US citizens? Never, ever going to happen. For my own information, having followed your posts for the past few months, how come you are so great at knowing the real meaning of what other people post or say? Me, I take what is expressed as the intent of the statement.
My last word on this subject to you.
Argento
Once again, you use a machine-gun to prevent a point of view that is different from yours being discussed. I do think this forum can handle plurality of views without the insistent rat-a tat tat of your views. Another question, even though you haven't answered my question on what law has Assange broken. But an adenda to that question. In what jurisdiction? Since when did the laws of the USA mean that they apply anywhere else in the world to non-US citizens? Never, ever going to happen. For my own information, having followed your posts for the past few months, how come you are so great at knowing the real meaning of what other people post or say? Me, I take what is expressed as the intent of the statement.
My last word on this subject to you.
ArgentoI can answer that for you: "Es un sabe lo todo, pero en realidad, no sabe nada."
I can answer that for you: "Es un sabe lo todo, pero en realidad, no sabe nada."Nice one Schmoj
Wild Walleye
12-07-10, 21:43
Once again, you use a machine-gun to prevent a point of view that is different from yoursI haven't prevented anyone from saying anything. I don't have the administrator's tools at my disposal. Even if I did, I certainly wouldn't delete too many post. Why would I? If you were more observant, you'd notice that I do the exact opposite of what you claim by presenting (in most cases) the other posters' comments in their entirety and address them on a point by point basis.
Being discussed. I do think this forum can handle plurality of views without the insistent rat-a tat tat of your views.I don't. Besides, you like my posts.
Another question, even though you haven't answered my question on what law has Assange broken.For starters, he has knowingly received and distributed stolen property for profit. Some of the stolen property belongs to the the US Govt and bank of America. How did he get actually take possession of that stolen property? Was it via electronic transmission originating or terminating within the sovereign territory of the United States?
But an adenda to that question. In what jurisdiction? How about the US?
Since when did the laws of the USA mean that they apply anywhere else in the world to non-US citizens?I'm sorry, I thought that since you were posting on this site, it meant you could read. Since when did not being a US citizen grant individuals immunity to US laws?
Never, ever going to happen.I don't disagree. To the current US administration, Assange is probably a hero.
For my own information, having followed your posts for the past few months,I am certain that you have learned much, grasshopper.
how come you are so great at knowing the real meaning of what other people post or say?Because that is what I do. Some people paint, others sculpt. I mind fuck.
Me, I take what is expressed as the intent of the statement.I don't doubt that. It would explain quite a bit.
My last word on this subject to you. No it isn't
Wild Walleye
12-07-10, 23:42
Another question, even though you haven't answered my question on what law has Assange broken. But an adenda to that question. In what jurisdiction?While you may not have noticed, wienerleaks was under a massive, prolonged ddos attack that all but shut down their primary host, forcing them to rely on their back-up host which, and I have no idea why he would set it up this way, happens to be in the US. Publicly disseminating classified US Govt data via wire (that's where the internet falls in the some what outdated jargon) with the intent to do harm to the US. Further, as I stated earlier (directly pointing out what I believe to be the slam dunk charges) he knowingly received a stolen Band of America hard drive and is using the information that it contained in a massive extortion plot against the US and several other governments.
Like I have said many times, there once was a day when problems like this deftly handled by people we have never heard of.
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