2012 Elections in the USA

[Member #4112]

Esten, the link I provided uses the BLS's numbers to demonstrate how the numbers have been fudged to lower the number in the labor force and improve the unemployment number. No Esten, I provided the link, so since you don't like the author and you consider him not credible even though his analysis stands up, you go back and see if you can find anywhere in the years before Obama when this basic assumption has been changed. Sorry you will not find it because it was only changed since 2009. Guess you missed the CBO's predictions on unemployment as well.

Do you want the specific IDC-9 and CPT codes regarding Medicare? You seem to have missed the $500 Billion cut from Medicaid to be transfered to the debt and ObamaCare. I really love this one. They count it twice, once as a reduction then as income. Just exactly how do you spend the same money twice. Only in Washington. You think they are taking all this money out of Medicare and not cutting services? Guess you are blind to the manipulation of the Medicare Advantage program as well. Even the GAO called Obama on this one.

Your losing Esten and losing badly, even the governmental wonks are coming down on Obama.

[Member #4112]

Esten, I do some work in the oil patch, Obama chose a very outdated statistic to suit his needs not what is a commonly accepted FACT in the industry. Esten can you say horizontal drilling, hydraulic fracturing, better software analysis of seismographic data, just to name a few? When the folks who do the work tell me it's out there for another hundred years I tend to believe them, after all these are the folks that find, develop and deliver the product with private funds they put at risk. They know a lot more about it than the knot head in the White House.

Boy do I love your argument on Solar, without all the government subsidies the wind and solar industries would fold. Why did China cash in on our push for solar and bankrupt many American companies you failed to ask. I know this is an alien concept for you Esten. But they delivered an acceptable product at a lower cost even after shipping it half way around the world than American companies. Guess you missed the auto maker deciding to build cars in Mexico even though it has facilities in the US because their labor rate is about 25% of that in the US. It's about economics Esten, first last and always.

If you want it clean, forget the exotic stuff that can't survive in the real world without massive subsidies, go with natural gas or spend the money on clean coal research since we have some of the largest coal deposits in the world. But, NO, that is not sexy enough for liberals. Not cool to have a coffee table book about coal or nature gas, so much better to show pretty mirror arrays and slowing turning turbine blades – which by the way are killing eagles. Bet they didn't show that on their glossy photos!

[El Alamo]

Any nitwit knows that so called green, renewable energy is a hoax. Even Obama. It is possible that Obama is naive enough to believe this green energy baloney and waste trillions of our tax dollars on it. However, I think it is more likely that Obama has to pander to these green energy frauds because they are his voter base. Either way, this is not the type of change we baggained for when we put this birdbrain in the White house.

[Gato Hunter]

Any nitwit knows that so called green, renewable energy is a hoax. Even Obama. It is possible that Obama is naive enough to believe this green energy baloney and waste trillions of our tax dollars on it. However, I think it is more likely that Obama has to pander to these green energy frauds because they are his voter base. Either way, this is not the type of change we baggained for when we put this birdbrain in the White house.With that attitude in the 1900's we would still be riding horse drawn buggies and sailing on the titanic instead of airplanes. Also Obama himself did not waste "trillions", you may need to drop a few zeros.

[Member #4112]

Gato Hunter, I don't think you want to choose that era to compare to solar and wind. Back then the government did not hand out huge multi-million dollar subsidies to inventors. Back then folks with an idea secured private funds and if the inventions they came up with were commercially viable they succeeded if not they failed. Look at all the inventions which came about during that time, it was not the 'government' that brought those products to market but free enterprise and the now hated '1%'ers' who plowed the money into the products. No burdensome government entities and regulations or green weenies to get in the way of progress. I'm all for shrinking the federal and state governments back down to the size they were in the 1900's!

[Esten]

Doppel can't provide any credible evidence to back up his statements.

On the Affordable Care Act dropping covered tests, he's got nothing. He just asks if I want the codes, then segues into a different subject. Nothing. BTW did you notice Doppel sounded like a liberal, suggesting a drop in covered services was a bad thing.

On the unemployment rate calculation method changing, he refers again to his blogger link. The method used by BLS involves a ~60000 household telephone survey, asking a set of prescribed questions and recording the answers. A computer then classifies each person into buckets based on their answers. Nothing in the blogger's article proves that this method has changed. The LFPR is indeed influencing the U3 as previously discussed, but that doesn't mean BLS is "fudging" or changing definitions. You'd think if this were true the right wing media would be all over it.

Tonight Bill O'Reilly was talking about internet misinformation. I think he was referring to people who post stuff but can't back up their statements.

[Member #4112]

Esten, if you knew anything about medical billing you would have realized IDC-9 and CPT coding is how Medicare recognizes services and what they cover and do not cover. When they release information regarding services cut by Obama's raiding the fund is done using these identifiers, again showing you know nothing about this subject! I could send you a list and you would have no idea what you were looking at.

Want real world facts; try these two since they are family members I personally take to their appointments.

82 year old female with a diagnosed aneurism on a major artery near the heart, diagnostic imaging to monitor this condition has been removed from covered services – yes the physician knows she has it but if she wants it monitored even annually the physician has to order it but she has to pay as Medicare has cut this screening.

80 year old female diagnosed with a cancerous spot in the lung, a lifelong NON-Smoker, had surgery two years ago to remove upper lobe of one lung. The physician recommends annual imaging of the lungs to monitor any further activity, yes you guessed it, it's no longer paid for. Again the physician can order it but the patient now has to pay for it.

Remember the 'death panels' from the ObamaCare debate, here you begin to see one manifestation of it – your old, we know you have life threatening conditions but we won't pay to see if it progresses even though you paid Medicare Tax and your employer matched since the inception of the program. Nope we are going to spend it on Super Medicaid for folks who can afford cars, computers, smart phones, big screen TVs and all manner of other toys but not health insurance.

Stop whining about the unemployment numbers, the facts are there you just choose to ignore them since you don't like them. BLS even admits U-3 is only a limited view of unemployment and does not include all the folks in U-6 who are unemployed even after BLS changed the definition. Perhaps you can't add and that's the problem. I guess you are OK with the idea you drop folks who are long term unemployed since the BLS has decided they will never find a job – they are still unemployed and want a job but it's inconvenient for propaganda purposes to count them.

Even the CBO has higher unemployment numbers than those BLS are trying to push, not to mention CBO is predicting INCREASES in unemployment for at least another 3 years.

Esten, go look in the mirror, O'Reilly was talking about that guy looking back at you.

[Esten]

Doppel, I do know about CPT codes, you just didn't provide any, or even any test names. Remember, you don't have a clue what I do for a living.

Finally, you tell us the cuts are for medical imaging. No credible links though, just anecdotes. I don't doubt your story, or that PPACA may have cut reimbursement on some services (e.g, less cost-effective) while expanding coverage on others (e.g, preventive).

However:
- There are studies that have demonstrated no significant survival benefits among cancer-resection patients who received scans on a routine basis.
- It's not clear these Medicare imaging cuts are tied to PPACA as you claimed. These may be simply another round of cuts from CMS, which has cut reimbursement for imaging before under Bush. If you have a link, please share.
- It's not clear that CMS cut coverage altogether, vs. reduced reimbursement. Are you sure your family members are responsible for the entire cost, or just part of the cost?

I'll continue my research. In the meantime you may want to consider how PPACA may be helping reduce prescription drug costs for your family members, and how that will be affected if Republicans gut PPACA.

[WorldTravel69]

Do you guys really get OFF on this Shit?

Sad Life You RePublicos Have!

Oh, Yes!

Happy 6th anniversary to Romney Care.

[Punter 127]

Do you guys really get OFF on this Shit?

Sad Life You RePublicos Have!'If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen'.

[El Alamo]

I am continually amazed how effortlessly Obama can destroy an economy. Obama is a natural. Takes to this like ducks to water. Now, if he could only switch gears and try to improve the economy. Oh, I forgot, Obama wants everyone to be unemployed so they will be dependent on his handouts.

[Member #4112]

Esten, you have used the 'you don't have a clue what I do' so many times for so many fields it has become meaningless.

It is painfully evident you don't know anything about medical coding and how it relates to reimbursement or lack thereof from Medicare. It was obvious from your response, you just Googled the term and kicked back an answer. If you did know what you were talking about there would have been at least 2 and probably 3 other questions you would have asked. So save the BS for someone else.

Here is the link, I doubt you will understand what you are looking at or have the requisite knowledge to utilize it.

http://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Coding/OutpatientCodeEdit/downloads//SumofDataChngsV130.pdf

Enjoy

[Gato Hunter]

Do you guys really get OFF on this Shit?

Sad Life You RePublicos Have!

Oh, Yes!

Happy 6th anniversary to Romney Care.WT69, If the Olympics had "a pissing contest" AP would have the dream team.

[El Alamo]

Maybe the 'dream team' is pissing in an attempt to put out Obama's forest fire which is destroying the economy.

[Esten]

More dodging from Doppelganger.

I've known about CPT codes for a long time. That's beside the point. Focusing on what CPT codes are is a dodge. The current debate is all about the following claim:


Esten, perhaps you should revisit the changes in Medicare which are already coming on line due to ObamaCare. Now many tests have been dropped from the approved payment list and when physicians order these test it is now up to the patient to pay if the tests are preformed. I guess you missed the millions being cut from Medicare and shifted to Medicaid.This was news to me so I wanted to learn about it. After considerable chasing, we finally learn Doppel was referring to medical imaging. As I've pointed out, there are studies that have demonstrated no significant medical benefit from annual imaging in some cases. In fact, imaging reimbursements have been cut eight times in six years. Was there a recent cut attributable to the Affordable Care Act (PPACA)? Doppel still hasn't provided any evidence of this. The closest he came was referencing a "$500 Billion cut" in Medicare that is included in PPACA. I guess Doppel thinks annual medical imaging was part of this $500 Billion "cut".

Let's look at the facts:

No $500 billion in Medicare cuts
http://bismarcktribune.com/news/opinion/mailbag/article_8307e73a-de48-11df-80ad-001cc4c002e0.html
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jun/16/mitt-romney/500-billion-medicare-obamacare-romney-says/

The bill doesn't take money out of the current Medicare budget but, rather, attempts to slow the program's future growth, curtailing just over $500 billion in anticipated spending increases over the next 10 years. Medicare spending will still increase, however.You can read the links to see where the savings come from, but they aren't from cutting benefits. This explains how I searched for 2 hours and couldn't find anything linking PPACA with medical imaging cuts. What I did learn is that by reducing the future rate of growth in Medicare spending, PPACA delays a projected Medicare Part A shortfall from 2016 to 2024. Sounds like just the kind of thing conservatives have been telling us we need to do.

Go back and look at Doppel's original statement (quoted above). Then follow his series of responses. He started with deception and ended with dodging. Just another conservative spreading misinformation on the internet.

[Gato Hunter]

I think this whole thread is anti productive and reducing profits.

[Punter 127]

I think this whole thread is anti productive and reducing profits.Seems a bit odd that you didn't post similar feelings when Bush was POTU and being slammed on a daily basis???

[Rev BS]

I think this whole thread is anti productive and reducing profits.What we need is more information and real discussion, and less propanganda and finger-pointing. We already have that outside AP. Throw away the cliches, like "class warfare" and "socialism vs capitalism", that will be a good start. I shut my mouth about Iraq for many years, out of support for the Presidency. Universal health care in whatever form can only help. Whereas, people on the right side of the railroad tracks will always get better food, doctors, lawyers, colleges, etc. That is from the beginning of time.

[Member #4112]

Esten, the only dodging going on here is from you and your total lack of knowledge regarding procedure and diagnostic coding. You're making a fool of yourself here my friend.

You asked for specifics and I gave you two direct experiences with the cuts and clearly stated they involved imaging in answer to your post.

You asked for more and I gave you the direct link to the source Medicare coding provided by the program. If you will look at the information provided earlier via the link you will find what you are looking for regarding Medicare's failure to pay for specific items. Since you don't understand the material the effort is lost on you. It is not my job to provide instruction unless you wish to pay my base rate for consulting.

I guess you now consider a chest x-ray to be a non-essential test to follow up on lung cancer, providing in your words 'no significant benefit'? This was one of the 'imaging' examples given.

The bottom line here is the reduction in services to Medicare recipients to shift spending to Obama's Super Medicaid recipients. Simply put, taking health care funding from those who paid for years into the Medicare program through payroll taxes and giving it to those who paid nothing but will be rewarded for not taking responsibility for their own healthcare with OUR dollars via Obama's Super Medicaid program.

Here are some great true examples of how great Medicaid is:

A Chinese woman comes to the US on a visa. She speaks no English but is pregnant. She already has one child and China has a one child law which they enforce. She goes to an obstetrician with an interpreter and pays $3, 000 up front for total post-partum, delivery and anit.partum care. She tells the physician if it is a boy she will stay in and deliver in the US, but if it is a girl she will return to China and be aborted for free. Her next visit 30 days later she demands a refund and presents a Medicaid card!

A patient shows up with commercial insurance provided by the employer and has Medicaid as a SECONDARY Payer. How exactly do you get Medicaid when you have commerical insurance?

A patient shows up with commercial insurance provided by the employer and because there is a deductible which must be met for a scheduled procedure this person tells the employer to cancel the commercial insurance and then applies and receives Medicaid. The person is still employed!

Now you should know I can not provide names since it would be a violation of HIPAA.

Simple concept – those who paid are first in line and those who don't come last. In this case Medicaid should be totally shuttered and turned over to the States to administer as they see fit.

[Matt Psyche]

The 2nd Bush administration began with the unemployment rate 5. 3% and ended with 8 percent. The rate kept increasing and peaked around 10% in the 1st year of Obama, but now it is about 8. 2. Thanks.


I am continually amazed how effortlessly Obama can destroy an economy. Obama is a natural. Takes to this like ducks to water. Now, if he could only switch gears and try to improve the economy. Oh, I forgot, Obama wants everyone to be unemployed so they will be dependent on his handouts.

[Esten]

You asked for more and I gave you the direct link to the source Medicare coding provided by the program. If you will look at the information provided earlier via the link you will find what you are looking for regarding Medicare's failure to pay for specific items. Since you don't understand the material the effort is lost on you. It is not my job to provide instruction unless you wish to pay my base rate for consulting.

I guess you now consider a chest x-ray to be a non-essential test to follow up on lung cancer, providing in your words 'no significant benefit'? This was one of the 'imaging' examples given.Doppel, the link you provided is simply a listing of codes and descriptions, grouped into categories. The file does not provide any explanation or reason for the various changes. These codes undergo changes every year. I am indeed familiar with most of the terminology in the file. Presumably you are referring to the following line:


The following APC (s) were deleted from the IOCE, effective 01-01-12.
00307 Myocardial Positron Emission Tomography (PET) imagingPlease confirm this is the service you believe has been dropped by CMS. Do you have a single shred of evidence that imaging services for Medicare recipients have been dropped because of the Affordable Care Act?

[Member #4112]

Esten, I have to give you credit, you at least looked at the information, sort of. Again we are back at the point of you not understanding the material or medical coding.

I will make this simple so even a liberal can understand. Procedure codes which still appear must be linked with diagnostic codes. While a specific procedure code maybe paid when submitted with one diagnostic code it may not be when submitted with another diagnostic code. Understand? The cuts are made by removing procedure codes and / or diagnostic codes from what will be paid.

Now is there a specific listing from all the procedure and diagnostic codes which have been eliminated by ObamaCare? Of course not and if you don't know this you should. They are not about to publish a listing of specific care cuts, makes it too easy for people to target them and complain. What Medicare / CMS does is publish the revised lists each year and each specialty and / or healthcare service provider reviews what is or is not paid based on the scope of services provided and the associated diagnostic and procedure codes used to bill. Third parties usually ferret out the minutia and publish for specific providers.

If you think this is sneaky and convoluted, your right! This is how it works and how the shell game is played by Federal Healthcare.

Sorry your stab at the procedure regarding the heart condition was not very close and do you now understand the other half of the question you have not answered? I am disappointed you did not address the chest x-ray, it should have been very easy to located.

[Member #4112]

Have you noticed the new filings for unemployment are up again. Guess all those folks BLS dropped from the rolls are out looking again and pestering the government for payments.

BLS can erase them from being counted in the national unemployment rate but they can't stop them from showing up November 6th to vote the Blamer in Chief out of office

[Esten]

Now is there a specific listing from all the procedure and diagnostic codes which have been eliminated by ObamaCare? Of course notWell well. So you don't have any evidence.


If you think this is sneaky and convoluted, your right!The only thing sneaky and convoluted is your attempt to save face in being unable to support your original claim. You've offered no evidence that PPACA has dropped medical imaging coverage for Medicare recipients.

[Esten]

80 year old female diagnosed with a cancerous spot in the lung, a lifelong NON-Smoker, had surgery two years ago to remove upper lobe of one lung. The physician recommends annual imaging of the lungs to monitor any further activity, yes you guessed it, it's no longer paid for. Again the physician can order it but the patient now has to pay for it.Hmmm, blame it on "Obamacare"? Or maybe just a prudent measure to manage costs and allocate spending to maximize medical benefit?

Annual Screening With Chest X-Ray Does Not Reduce Rate of Lung Cancer Deaths, Study Finds
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111026143717.htm


In a trial that included more than 150,000 participants, those who underwent annual chest radiographic screening for up to 4 years did not have a significantly lower rate of death from lung cancer compared to participants who were not screened, according to a study in the November 2 issue of JAMA. The study is being published early online to coincide with its presentation at the annual meeting of the American College of Chest Physicians (CHEST 2011).Note the accompanying editorial:


In an accompanying editorial, Harold C. Sox, M. D, of Dartmouth Medical School, West Lebanon, N. H, comments on the findings of this study.

"The PLCO lung cancer study result provides convincing evidence that lung cancer screening with chest radiography is not effective. The study is important for putting this question to rest and providing strong empirical grounds for comparing low-dose computed tomography to a real-world alternative: usual care.

[Member #4112]

Smoke and mirrors again Esten.

If you took the time to read your cited study it deals with general population sampling and not with patients who have undergone surgical intervention and / or previous diagnosis of lung cancer. Pretty poor example of your reasoning but typical for a liberal.

[Esten]

Occurence vs. recurrence? Merely different by an additional risk factor. Yes perhaps the ideal study addressing your example would have focused on populations previously diagnosed and treated for lung cancer. However the study I cited is far from irrelevant to this population. It highlights the limitations of chest x-ray to visualize early cancers, including a high false positive rate.

Perhaps you'll find this more convincing:

Utility of screening procedures for detecting recurrence of disease after complete response in patients with small cell lung carcinoma
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9264350


CONCLUSIONS: These data, demonstrating that clinical histories and physical examinations are the most fruitful means of detecting evidence of recurrent lung carcinoma, are consistent with data regarding the follow-up of other curatively treated cancers, such as breast carcinoma and melanoma. Chest X-rays in asymptomatic patients detect recurrences in a small proportion of patients, whereas routine blood tests appear to be of little value.No medical organization recommends chest x-ray for lung cancer screening in asymptomatic persons, and several in fact recommend against it (Table 1):
http://www.dcmsonline.org/jax-medicine/2007journals/CancerScreening/lung_cancer_screening.pdf

Which really begs the question: Do you have any evidence Medicare has EVER covered annual chest x-ray for monitoring lung cancer recurrence ?

[Member #4112]

Esten, read what you post links to. Chest X-Rays for lung cancer screening does not reduce mortality when the cancer is found in it's late stages. Duh!

Chest X-Ray is still one of the primary tools used to diagnose the condition in its early stages when it is treatable. Chest-X Rays are also used to monitor as well as MRI for post surgical, radiation therapy and other treatment s used for lung cancer. Here is a link for you.

http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/pressreleases/2005/plcolungbaseline

If you want the last word in the conversation go to the MD Anderson site, after all they are one of the leading cancer research and treatment hospitals in the nation.

I guess the next thing you are going to tell me is ObamaCare is not gutting the Medicare Advantage program, which the Democrats passed additional funding for the Advantage program so cuts won't kink in during an election year.

This is all going to be a moot point in June when ObamaCare is struck down by the Supreme Court. Wonder how the Anointed One is going to handle the double whammy of the Court slapping down his healthcare grab and upholding Arizona's immigration law?

Monger on Dude!

[Jackson]

Wonder how the Anointed One is going to handle the double whammy of the Court slapping down his healthcare grab and upholding Arizona's immigration law?That's an easy one.

1. It's the Supreme Court's fault.

2. It's Congress' fault.

3. It's George Bush's fault.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Member #4112]

I love the way the BLS reports the new 'drop' in unemployment from 8. 2% to 8. 1, while the real rate is still over 14% The Wall Street Journal lays it out pretty simply, here is the link:

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2012/05/04/why-did-the-unemployment-rate-drop-7/

A good analogy of the BLS's reasoning when it comes to unemployment would be:

As the Titanic is sinking. 60% of the ship is underwater, but then the ship breaks in half and the portion under water slips away leaving the other half sill sinking but now more out of the water than under.

BLS would say we are no longer 60% under water we are only 10% under since we are not counting the half that just broke off!

Just as BLS is not counting the folks who are long term unemployed and ran out of benefits, but are still unemployed and wanting a job.

[Big Boss Man]

When I was forecasting in the early 2000s, the decline of the labor force was a major topic. We thought labor was going to have to be more productive to support a larger population that did not work. I think the rise of internet retailing for example has eliminated many of the unproductive jobs in the economy. Your former bookstore or retail video clerk is probably peddling coffee now."Anything to eat with that?" Active duty military has also increased by 100, 000 since 2000 and I do not think they are included in the labor force number. I surmise that in 2030 that labor force participation will be smaller than today's number no matter who is in charge just like we forecast in 2000. However, no forecaster I have ever read would have projected such a long recovery in 2000. Rogoff and Rinehart probably came closest in "This Time Is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly" but that was published in September 2009. The long recovery in my mind has hastened the decline in labor rate participation.

[El Alamo]

Saw Obama explaining how great the economy is. In about 6 months Obama will be looking for a job with his resume highlighting a GED / high school equivalency diploma. Undoubtedly. thanks to obama's great economy, Obama will join the ranks of the long term unemployed. A relatively new classification of workers gracias a Obama.

[Big Boss Man]

Long-term unemployed is just a statistician's term. In the old days we called them housewives.

Here's quote from a CNN article today."Jason Everett, for example, wouldn't be counted. Out of work for nearly three years now, Everett has given up his job search altogether. Instead, the unemployed plumber and Air Force veteran takes a few community college courses and looks after his two children while his wife is the primary breadwinner."

Oh BTW, according to this article these services are worth $60k to $115k.

http://moneyland.time.com/2012/04/30/a-moms-work-is-worth-113k-annually-or-maybe-about-half-that/

I think this number is high given average household income is around $50k but I think Mitt believes it.

Personally I think our choice is between Tweedledee and Tweedledum for President this year. So the best course is to vote your pocketbook. If you live in high tax and high real estate value state you vote Obama. Low tax and real estate value states vote Romney. Reason: Obama will cater to special interests. Romney will want to flatten tax rates but he will lower tax expenditures to accomplish it. Life is simple when you look at it from the standpoint of your wallet.

[El Alamo]

Personally I think our choice is between Tweedledee and Tweedledum for President this year.I sort of agree. Of course, I am retired and am not looking for a job. It won't bother me too much if Obama is re-elected. It is just that Obama appears so clueless about a free market economy and the benefits of a free market economy. Not surprising, might I add, considering Obama has never had a real job in his life.

[Esten]

There are many worthwhile discussion points in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA). The law has a big focus on disease prevention and early detection, essential to controlling health care costs. I suspect we'll be hearing more about the benefits of the law in the election campaign.

One of the things the law did was prohibit co-pays for preventive services recommended by an independent expert panel, the United States Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF). The law also makes proven preventive services free for most people on Medicare. Listed below are cancer screening services for which co-pays are prohibited (at defined ages). Chest x-ray screening for lung cancer isn't included, because it hasn't proven to be cost effective. There are significant costs associated with the high false positive rate.

- colonoscopy for colon cancer.
- Pap smears for cervical cancer
- mammograms for breast cancer.

In his zeal to attack the new health care law, Doppel claimed that Medicare chest x-ray screening for lung cancer recurrence had been dropped by PPACA, implying it was a victim of $500 Billion in Medicare "cuts" to help expand Medicaid. As I posted before, there are $500 Billion of savings in future Medicare spending in the next 10 years, but not from cutting benefits. But it gets better. Doppel couldn't even prove Medicare had EVER covered this service. It's probably because no medical organization (including the USPSTF) recommends it for asymptomatic people. If you don't have symptoms, it's a "waste of time" according to the American Cancer Society.

Doppel dug himself in with a great deal of deflection and bluster, but his original claim has been exposed as false.

[Member #4112]

Esten, you are so full of it. The original post indicated the patient in question had already had surgical intervention, removal of one lobe of the lung, and the chest x-ray was for follow up. Procedure code and matching diagnostic code were rejected for payment by Medicare. The physician was frustrated with his ability to follow up due to the denial forcing the patient to now pay for a follow up test which was covered 18 months ago. I would think a cancer specialist at MD Anderson might know what he is talking about.

So Esten, why are you always trying to change the discussion to general population screening? The only person unable to stay on topic here is you, as usual. Typical liberal B / S if you don't have the facts through everything but the kitchen sink in to obscure the discussion.

If anyone is in a fight to deny women access to healthcare it is Obama and ObamaCare. Two of the three tests you listed directly affect women, mamaograms and PAP smears. Obama is all for making sure women get free contraceptives but could care less about breast or cervical cancer. So who is waging the war on women?

Better go back and check with the American College of Obstetrics and Gyneclogy my friend, you will find a very different view!

[Member #4112]

Big Boss Man, some how I doubt we suddenly had a surge of 9 million housewives in 3 1/2 years! I do agree in the past that part of the population which did not work were either housewives, infirmed, or retired, doubt that accounts for the "shrinkage" your seeing the BLS claim now.

[Big Boss Man]

Doppelganger, quoting the WSJ article you submitted:

"When people leave the labor force it could be due to discouragement of the long-term unemployed or by choice over retirement or child care. The labor force has dropped dramatically over the course of recession and recovery, and concerns have been raised it was due to discouraged workers."

So here the author gave three reasons: discouragement, retirement and childcare but focused on discouragement.

Again I think there is a secular trend toward retirement that was identified ten years ago and it is definitely part of the number.

I think that people are now realizing the value of childcare. We are moving away from the Hillary Clinton view of "It Takes a Village." We are seeing the rise of home schooling like Rick Santorum did. Google home schooling finds a USA Today article claiming a rise of 400k students between 2003 and 2007. I think it is more popular now not less. Those mothers are probably dropping out of the labor force but engaged in gainful activity.

Then there is the cyclical issue of discouragement. How do you split the 9 million? If the ex-plumber that I cited is raising children is he discouraged or is he engaged in an activity worth $60k when he could only make $40k.

I think there are many free riders cashing checks on the lengthened unemployment benefits. According to the BLS unemployed mothers of children under the age of 18 has increased by a million since 2008. Obama and the Democrats should be blamed for that one. Anyone could have seen that coming. BTW by percent the levels are the same as in the 1980s.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-databook-2011.pdf

Until someone does the hard analysis we are in the world of "Could". That is why I reacted in the first place.

[Esten]

I am enjoying our discussion Doppel.

Yes you would think a specialist at MD Anderson would know what he's talking about. Why don't you ask him why he's recommending something his profession doesn't support? While you're at it, ask him about the risk-benefit ratio of the followup treatments the patient might have to endure from a false-positive x-ray. Maybe he's looking to generate more revenue for his practice.


So Esten, why are you always trying to change the discussion to general population screening?The point is asymptomatic populations. If the patient was successfully treated, and the symptoms gone, that patient is asymptomatic. No different from the general population, except for the additional risk factor of prior cancer. I explained this before. I also researched your claim many hours online, and found no exceptions for the detection of recurrent cancer. In fact I found (and posted) a study showing chest x-ray to be a poor test for recurrence in asymptomatic patients.

There may be some limited value, but Medicare has to make choices on how to spend limited dollars. If $10M to pay for "A" can save 100 lives, but for "B" can save 1000 lives, what's the best choice? Medicare can't pay for everything.


If anyone is in a fight to deny women access to healthcare it is Obama and ObamaCare. Two of the three tests you listed directly affect women, mamaograms and PAP smears. Obama is all for making sure women get free contraceptives but could care less about breast or cervical cancer. So who is waging the war on women?ROTFLMAO!! Go back and read what I wrote. Obama (via PPACA) has ensured screening for breast and cervical cancer WILL BE FREE. Co-pays are now prohibited. PPACA expands access for women, not only for these tests, but also the number of women who will be able to get them for free. Encouraging the use of these screening tests is a win-win for women's health and healthcare costs.

Doppel, I know you're all riled up against Obama, maybe you should take some time out and clear your head a little bit.

[Esten]

That's an easy one.

1. It's the Supreme Court's fault.

2. It's Congress' fault.

3. It's George Bush's fault.Even easier is guessing how Republicans will explain anything negative:

1. It's Obama's fault.

[Rocky2]

Even easier is guessing how Republicans will explain anything negative:

1. It's Obama's fault.It is easier because it is true.

[Member #4112]

LMAO Esten. Obama's Preventive Services Taskforce (aka death panel) decided they were not paying for mammograms due to in their estimation the false positives outweighed the benefits of the test for women 40-49 years of age. So it is the patient's choice to have the test done, if the patient is willing to pay for it. Now just exactly how is a test 'free' if it is not authorized for payment and the patient has to foot the bill? While the Preventive Services Taskforce did determine a mammogram once every two years was acceptable, I. E. Covered for payment, for women 50 to 75 years of age.

Check with the American Cancer Society and the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology both recommend screening for women to begin at 40 years of age and be performed annually. Well Esten, I guess these two outfits are talking out their ass and must hate Obama and ObamaCare.

Regarding the chest x-ray, you need to really look a little closer at the data. MD Anderson is one of the leading research institutes in the world when it comes to cancer. I would strongly suspect your 'studies' are much like those used by Obama's Preventive Services Taskforce – flawed!

Take a look at the leading study the Preventative Services Taskforce used to justify their position, it 'synthesized data from 66 other studies'. These folks selected the studies they wanted then willowed it down to what they wanted. Not new research that independently confirmed their hypothesis, just regurgitation of old material. The other used 'four computer models that simulate life histories for individual women'. Never dated a 'simulated' woman before but I'll bet you have.

So tell me Esten, how exactly is this 'free' if it's not approved or offered in the first place.


I am enjoying our discussion Doppel.

There may be some limited value, but Medicare has to make choices on how to spend limited dollars. If $10M to pay for "A" can save 100 lives, but for "B" can save 1000 lives, what's the best choice? Medicare can't pay for everything.You make my point about ObamaCare and the 'death panels' for me Esten. Just like Canada, England and other countries with this style of 'healthcare' system it all comes down to once you reach a certain age. 55 to 60 depending on the country, you no longer deserve care so go home and die quietly while we spend the money on younger people, like the 'occupy' crowd since they deserve it. Does not matter you old people paid Medicare payroll taxes you whole life and your employers matched it. Let's take care of the jackasses who won't work but are more 'worthy' because they are young.

[Member #4112]

BBM, the WSJ article centered on the folks dropping out of the work force due to being long term unemployed and discouraged. These folks are still unemployed and still want a job, just can not find one. The article does mention child care and retirement as having a MINOR affect on the drop with the central factor being discouragement.

Please don't tell me you think the majority of those 9 million plus folks retired or became Mr. Mom! Even the BLS is not trying to say they retired.

[Big Boss Man]

BBM, the WSJ article centered on the folks dropping out of the work force due to being long term unemployed and discouraged. These folks are still unemployed and still want a job, just can not find one. The article does mention child care and retirement as having a MINOR affect on the drop with the central factor being discouragement.

Please don't tell me you think the majority of those 9 million plus folks retired or became Mr. Mom! Even the BLS is not trying to say they retired.Yes, I will stick to my guns. I really do not believe, assuming this an argument against Obama's policy, it is the policy of the Republican Party to increase the size of the labor force. If elected, Republicans will be overjoyed if the labor force shrinks while jobs increase thereby lowering unemployment. Republicans are the party of the homemaker. Both Romney and Santorum's wives were stay at home mothers. Laura Bush left teaching to raise children.

The baby boomers will be retiring in the next 10 years me included. I am holding out because I think austerity is the only solution.

Stricter immigration enforcement has reduced the size of the labor force. Anecdotal evidence is that Mexican immigrants are returning to Mexico which is also reducing the labor force. It makes sense with the lack of construction jobs. From a sample of one, we offered a job to a student engineer that turned us down and went to work in Taiwan instead. Personally I just do not know any discouraged unemployed and I live in high unemployment county. I have a lead on a minimum wage graveyard shift job that can lead to $34k a year in 3 years. I have given the connection to 5 or 6 people and not one has followed through. I do not think that people are willing work at anything which takes them out of the ranks of the discouraged. Alabama has trouble finding crop workers now that the immigration laws are being enforced.

There are many reasons to vote Republican in November but the reason that Republicans will increase the labor force is BS. Here's a link to another article that is one-sided in it is assessment and follows your view. Notice these are all blogs and not in the reporting part of the WSJ or Weekly Standard.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/one-thing-clear-not-enough-new-jobs_643170.html

The article also implies that Republicans are happy that America is struggling which is more BS. I don't think Romney thinks that at all.

Enough politics, I am in BA next week and need to figure out places I want to visit. Skittenbrewer, can I buy you a meal?

[Member #4112]

Big Boss Man, with all due respect, I just find it very hard to believe 400,000+ folks decided to become Mr or Mrs Mom in April as that many people exited the job market. The BLS's statistics shows about 25% of the folks exiting the job market are baby boomers retiring so what about the other 75%

I'm with you on stricter immigration enforcement, but as you point out in the southern states as the illegals (I guess under political correctness I just committed a hate crime) are being pushed out of the fields, the farmers are having a hard time replacing the work force. I believe the reason for this is the government (Republican and Democrat) have made it too profitable to remain unemployed and on the government dole / plantation. Why go get a job and actually work when you can lay on your ass and get paid by Uncle Sugar?

There are many high paying jobs out there but few candidates with the qualifications to fill them. Not much call for French Revolutionary Literature Majors out there or other 'soft' degrees for that matter. All three engineering companies I have for clients are looking for mechanical engineers but are having a hard time finding them since the program is so difficult, ditto for electrical and system engineers. The jobs are there the people with the requisite training are not.

Today Welfare is so attractive and pays well enough through its myriad of sources that untrained and uneducated people would rather depend on Uncle Sugar than do the labor their grandparents and great grandparents did. Welfare has made them 'too good for that sort of work'.

[Member #4112]

With the populace of France becoming tired of the austerity policies of their current government they have elected a Socialist president who has taken up Obama's themes of soak the corporations and the rich to finance the social welfare system. We Americans can now watch these programs in action in France, the flight of capital from France accompanied by continued contraction of the economy as the businesses that drive it are taxed to death.

France will follow in the footsteps of Greece, Spain, and Italy. It won't take long for Europe / Euro Zone to begin to implode when Germany finally throws in the financial towel and lets the rest of Europe sink in their own social spending ocean of debt.

[Matt Psyche]

We need to explore, find, and build industries / services where we can have comparative advantage- meaning the ability to offer better products / services for lower prices. We do not have comparative advantages in blue collar jobs, and in some professional jobs. Education among the people and innovativeness among entrepreneurs are important.


Yes, I will stick to my guns. I really do not believe, assuming this an argument against Obama's policy, it is the policy of the Republican Party to increase the size of the labor force. If elected, Republicans will be overjoyed if the labor force shrinks while jobs increase thereby lowering unemployment. Republicans are the party of the homemaker. Both Romney and Santorum's wives were stay at home mothers. Laura Bush left teaching to raise children.

The baby boomers will be retiring in the next 10 years me included. I am holding out because I think austerity is the only solution.

Stricter immigration enforcement has reduced the size of the labor force. Anecdotal evidence is that Mexican immigrants are returning to Mexico which is also reducing the labor force. It makes sense with the lack of construction jobs. From a sample of one, we offered a job to a student engineer that turned us down and went to work in Taiwan instead. Personally I just do not know any discouraged unemployed and I live in high unemployment county. I have a lead on a minimum wage graveyard shift job that can lead to $34k a year in 3 years. I have given the connection to 5 or 6 people and not one has followed through. I do not think that people are willing work at anything which takes them out of the ranks of the discouraged. Alabama has trouble finding crop workers now that the immigration laws are being enforced.

There are many reasons to vote Republican in November but the reason that Republicans will increase the labor force is BS. Here's a link to another article that is one-sided in it is assessment and follows your view. Notice these are all blogs and not in the reporting part of the WSJ or Weekly Standard.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/one-thing-clear-not-enough-new-jobs_643170.html

The article also implies that Republicans are happy that America is struggling which is more BS. I don't think Romney thinks that at all.

Enough politics, I am in BA next week and need to figure out places I want to visit. Skittenbrewer, can I buy you a meal?

[Esten]

LMAO Esten. Obama's Preventive Services Taskforce (aka death panel) decided they were not paying for mammograms due to in their estimation the false positives outweighed the benefits of the test for women 40-49 years of age. So it is the patient's choice to have the test done, if the patient is willing to pay for it. Now just exactly how is a test 'free' if it is not authorized for payment and the patient has to foot the bill? While the Preventive Services Taskforce did determine a mammogram once every two years was acceptable, I. E. Covered for payment, for women 50 to 75 years of age.

Check with the American Cancer Society and the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology both recommend screening for women to begin at 40 years of age and be performed annually. Well Esten, I guess these two outfits are talking out their ass and must hate Obama and ObamaCare.Wrong again. The PPACA has a provision that defers to the USPSTF 2002 guidelines which recommends screening mammography every 1-2 years for women aged 40 and older. It doesn't follow the more recent USPSTF guidance in this case, so it's hard to make a case this is Obama's Taskforce, which was B/S anyways.

You're making a fool out of yourself with your constant lack of fact-checking.


Regarding the chest x-ray, you need to really look a little closer at the data. MD Anderson is one of the leading research institutes in the world when it comes to cancer. I would strongly suspect your 'studies' are much like those used by Obama's Preventive Services Taskforce – flawed!It's not Obama's Taskforce. The science is far less-disputed on lung cancer (vs. breast cancer) , even the American Cancer Society recommends against routine screening of asymptomatic patients. Your doctor is an outlier.


You make my point about ObamaCare and the 'death panels' for me Esten. Death panels.... you sound like Sarah Palin. LOL. Here's a news flash for you Doppel: no private or public health insurance system has or will ever have unlimited funds. Look into it. The best you can hope for is that dollars are spent wisely. And once again, PPACA does not cut Medicare benefits.

[Miami Bob]

Super packs will destroy the electorial process: the super pacts misrewpresent the truth and both side are not trustworthy.

The Mitt: the wallstreet crowd parades not half truths but maybe 25% truths:

http://factcheck.org/2012/05/stimulus-money-for-jobs-overseas/

In the Miami market the ads were on shows ranging from the Sunday morning news shows to the afternoon flintstones-you can see I have far ranging tastes.

-

The budget debates-both sides are telling lots of half truths, but Obama likely is more full of it than the Mitt.

http://factcheck.org/2012/04/fall-preview-obama-vs-romney-and-ryan/

Factchecker makes an interesting read after all the baloney spread by the spin masters on both sides. Actually read the factchecker article completely is you are going to discuss the buget debate.

-

The teaparty folks are even more full of it. Let's bring back the good old days-1919.

http://factcheck.org/2012/03/tea-partys-targets/

The moderate voices in both parties should be silenced so only the most extreme irrational loud mouths with minimal thought attached to reality prevail!

[Rev BS]

There you go. 42% of Americans will be obese by 2030. Unemployment and hunger should not be a major issue in the future.

[Matt Psyche]

Poor people are obese, and middle / upper class people are relatively in better shape.


There you go. 42% of Americans will be obese by 2030. Unemployment and hunger should not be a major issue in the future.

[Member #4112]

Esten, they did not reveret to the earlier finding only suggested they would consider it after the recommendation caused a firestorm of criticism.

I am sure you and the 'panel' know more about medicine and treatment than the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists or the American Cancer Institute, they are just dummies and don't know what they are talking about.

I love the way one post you put something out there then retract it in the next. I don't know when you have time to even post as you read the 2, 000+ pages of convoluted hyprocisy of the ObamaCare legislation, which will be a moot point come June.

On a separate note the 'panel' uses studies and 'models' of virtual patients to come to conclusions and don't seem terribly interested in listening to the folks with differing opinions in the medical profession who are actually PRACTING medicine not theorizing about it.

Looking weak Esten, looking very weak.

[Esten]

The teaparty folks are even more full of it. Let's bring back the good old days-1919.

Shut 'Er Down!

[Esten]

Doppel, when I read about the Socialist victory in France, I was reminded of you. Complaining at the slightest hint of cuts in government spending. If you're arguing the government should cover more in health care, not less, isn't that a Socialist position?

Here's a contrast for you. College student loans have been in the news recently. Both parties say they want to extend low interest rates on Stafford loans. Here's how each party wants to pay for the $6 Billion cost:

Republicans: By eliminating a preventive health program created by the Affordable Care Act.
Democrats: By collecting more payroll taxes from high-earning owners of some privately owned corporations.
http://www.lifehealthpro.com/2012/05/07/ppaca-senate-turns-to-partisan-fight-over-student

Sure looks like the Republican Party is more interested in protecting the rich, than funding preventive health care.

[Member #4112]

Esten, why do you have such a hard time staying on topic?

I have always advocated the reduction in the unfunded liabilities of Medicaid and Welfare Programs; the continuation of funded programs such as Medicare and Social Security. The Government made a bargain with these folks when they started taking their money via payroll taxes; it's time to keep that bargain at the expense of the unfunded giveaway programs. Check your facts; Medicaid is growing at a much faster pace than Medicare.

According to you George Bush, the Republican Party or both are responsible for every ill which arises in the world. Either individually or both want to kill, starve, and enslave the population to the 'rich' and you can pick whichever demographic you wish. While in reality it is the Democratic Ruling Elite who wish to do this as we individuals are too stupid to know what is good for us and need their divine guidance to live our lives. Total B / S.

Ok here we go on your miscellaneous B / S you throw up to cloud the issue.

French elections IMHO herald the beginning of the end of the Euro Zone, with the new French president taking the path of your beloved Obama: Tax the Rich, Tax the Corporations, Increase Social Spending. The problem is there will quickly be no place to go to borrow the money and Germany will quickly grow weary of paying for others reckless spending. First Greece, then Portugal or Spain, then Italy followed by France begin defaulting and collapsing. At least England did not join the Euro Zone. Check our markets, they are already reacting to this scenario.

Student loan debt is now greater than all combined credit card debt and Obama's answer is to forgive, restructure and reduce interest even further. I am shocked that after the Stimulus and other wonderful packages Obama has given the nation these students don't have jobs after graduation so they can pay back the loans. Gee what happened, guess it must be George Bush, the Republicans or both conspiring against them.

Esten, nobody held a gun to their heads and made them take the loans and don't give me the B / S they had to have the money to go to school. I and many others in my generation worked our way through college, taking any menial, disgusting job that was available in a college town to get through, see my earlier post about this generation being "too good" to lower themsleves to this level of labor.

Esten, if all you got is Class Warfare you need to pack it in because your kungfu is getting pretty weak on that front my friend.

[Gato Hunter]

The republicans love to spew the religious Jesus bullshit at any fucking moment. Then they turn around and want to cut healthcare for the poor and elderly. This is exactly the opposite of the Jesus bullshit that they ranted about just before. What a bunch of dipshits.

[Stan Da Man]

Super packs will destroy the electorial process: the super pacts misrewpresent the truth and both side are not trustworthy.

The Mitt: the wallstreet crowd parades not half truths but maybe 25% truths:

http://factcheck.org/2012/05/stimulus-money-for-jobs-overseas/

In the Miami market the ads were on shows ranging from the Sunday morning news shows to the afternoon flintstones-you can see I have far ranging tastes.

-

The budget debates-both sides are telling lots of half truths, but Obama likely is more full of it than the Mitt.

http://factcheck.org/2012/04/fall-preview-obama-vs-romney-and-ryan/

Factchecker makes an interesting read after all the baloney spread by the spin masters on both sides. Actually read the factchecker article completely is you are going to discuss the buget debate.

-

The teaparty folks are even more full of it. Let's bring back the good old days-1919.

http://factcheck.org/2012/03/tea-partys-targets/

The moderate voices in both parties should be silenced so only the most extreme irrational loud mouths with minimal thought attached to reality prevail!Hey Bob:

I hope you're well. I'm sure you don't get all your views based on what "Factcheck" supposedly decides is the truth. But, it might be worth your time to check out who's behind that organization. The Annenberg Center for Public Policy can hardly be described as "neutral" or "centrist." They are a left-leaning organization. Garbage in. Garbage out.

If you dig a bit deeper, you'll see a description of who their "fact checkers" are. The vast majority are journalists. Some are from respected publications; others are not. But, there's one thing that that the vast majority of journalists in this country have in common: They are liberal. So, it's not surprising that their "results" show a consistent left wing bias. They can't maintain any semblance of credibility if they simply claimed Democrats are right all the time. They know that. So, like NPR, you see them slant their conclusions most frequently by what they choose not to mention and by what they leave out.

Finally, who in their right mind would willingly trust a bunch of journalists to be the arbiters of truth? They are supposed to deliver the facts without bias or preconception, but we haven't been close to that standard in this country in my lifetime.

Just my two cents, but you'd be better off relying on the Flintstones for your political truths.

[WorldTravel69]

See the movie 1911. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1772230/

Some one said If you Do not remember your history you will repeat it.

The Rich screwing over the poor.

When asked after the European banks declined to give money to the ruling Dowager, if the rich would give money to fight the poor peoples revolution, same as is now, they would not depart with their money. And it is the same as Now we the working people have to pay for your wars.

While the Rich make money and we suffer.

Greed Is Good.

Shame on You!

[Miami Bob]

Fact-checker is the gold standard and writes detailed reports with footnotes to the original sources. Most hard right wingers use a ghetto site that is run by a couple with a backround in urban legends-snopes. The annenberg family at one time was one on the richest families in the USA. They endowed the place which is physically near the wharton school-all part of a lefty communist conspiracy. I guess we should rely on rush and fox new to report only the truth.

If you have what you believe is a consistently better source of information-please post a link. The point of the posting is that inaccurate half truths by the super pacts who favor both sides.

Are going to be spending massive amounts of $$ and neither side should be taken at face value. I suggest that you may wish to google factchecker and see what various people say about it. Carl rove-another lefty quotes factchecker.

Did you bother to read the analysis of the misrepresentations by both the left and the right taking you back to the original sources. I would be please to look at alternatives.

Please provide them. I like to see what the truth is rather than the cool aide poured out of the tv airwaves. Both sides are regularly fool of shit==that's what I get from factchecker.

[Miami Bob]

http://factcheck.org/about/

Dick chaney quotes it and the wallstreet journal calls in a reliable source-more lefty proproganda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FactCheck

Vs.

Snopes.

http://www.snopes.com/

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/technology/05snopes.htm

Stan-any suggestions? I always try to have an open mind

[Miami Bob]

Factchecker gives it good to Obama-naughty, naughty barak-your nose may grow like the little boy in the story. It is also interesting to note ryan's plan in 2012 is more generous to medicare recipients than in 2011. Yet we all know that ryan hasn't specified the other cuts required to be so generous with no specific increases in revenue. I wonder who gets the cuts and how. I wish I had a working crystal ball rather than factchecker.

Wouldn't it be nice to make everyone happy all the time. Have the bad guys in black hats and the good in white hats. All the hats seem to be varying shades of grey.

I wonder if reagan could be mainstream in today's republican party. Reading his diaries it is clear the reagan had personal concerns about the health of the middle class under his supply side economic policies.

[Esten]

FactCheck.org is an invaluable site IMO. Same for PolitiFact.org. I use them occasionally to check information on both sides. There are plenty of examples where these sites call out false information from the left, as well as from the right. I'm sure many people on both political sides use them.

Almost all the information we get is reported through the media; journalists are in the very best position to check who said what, and check what the sources were and their reliability.

Some conservatives have accused these sites of being biased to the left before, no doubt because these sites have helped expose the tremendous amount of misinformation on the right. It seems to me that a group that tries to discredit a fact-checking site, is a group that does not want the facts to be known.

[Member #4112]

Since you consider these two 'fact checking' sites to be without question the last word in unbiased unvarnished truth and then question anyone who doubts their veracity as not seeking the truth is about as rational as saying the main stream media, ABC CBS NBC MSNB CNN The New York Times et al, is not full of liberals who have slanted the news for years and amount to not much more than a cheerleading squad for Obama. Most of these folks have never been formally introduced to the truth and would not know it if it walked up and slapped them.

When you look at the number of positive and negative stories alone regarding the Anointed One vs any challenger the results speak for themselves.

[Miami Bob]

A financially independent public policy research institution which discloses it's funding, is generally preferable to a site with google ads all over the place.

There are always prejudices anywhere. Factchecker seems to be balanced and generally respected by folks on the left and right-a gold standard within the context of what is available. If you assume that Fox News is superior, I would respectfully disagree. They don't publish linked footnotes when they provide the backstory and clearly have a marketing plan with an audiance to please or they lose $$

I am looking for a balance checking of the tag lines in 30 to 60 second tv spots. These spots may play a real role in the political future of the USA and major policy decisions. Private industry has billions at stake and motivation to control public opinion for reasons of maximizing profit, not necessarily the public good.

If I was working for Mitt, I would push that I have a goal of non-regulation of Wall Street and raise hundreds of millions for super packs to hire the best pr people to sway public opinion. The left has players with simular goals of self-interest.

I want to formulate my opinions based on the truth or as close to what is easily available, not propaganda. The state of the propaganda is troublesome for the health of a free electorial process while the USA is at a cross roads. I dout that god has pre-ordained that the USA will retain it's economic and scientific atvantages for ever.

Empires and great nations raise and fall. I hope that the USA can continue it's great experiment for another hundred years or more. Corruption of the political process does not bode well for the future.

Mr. D, you seem to be saying we can't trust anyone but the sourses of info which tend to support each person's world view. The is nothing close to the truth because all journalists are completely corrupt fraudsters. Somehow only the journals who support your world view are truthful and everyone else called "journalist" is corrupt.

[Member #4112]

Mr B, the first casualty of a political campaign, regardless of the party, is the truth. I believe we can agree on at least this point. While I don't trust any politician as far as I can throw them; that said I will vote for Mitt as he is the only alternative to Obama. It is truly a shame when you have to vote 'against' a candidate rather than 'for' one, which is the case this year again.

The major media sources I listed are so enamored with Obama there remains very little objective reporting as they fawn over his every word. While the 'fact checking' sites you cited are quick, they still shows its liberal underpinnings with many of their 'facts'. Fox News must be filling some need for 'truth' out there the other major players are not meeting or they would not be so successful. Look at all the Liberal shows that have been rolled out and subsequently fail. I don't believe Fox is the be all and end all in the truth market but they seem to come closer than most or they would not be so successful as an alternative to the other networks.

A good example of 'faulty fact checking' IMHO from these sites was Obama's reference to American oil reserves. He selected a 'fact' generated in the late 40's / early 50's which fit his version of the 'truth'. The reality of American reserves is totally different – check with the oil companies who have much more invested in finding, developing and bringing the product to market than a politician who hates carbon based fuels.

If pushing gas prices to $10 / gallon would make green technology grow then Europe should be 10 years ahead of us but they are not for the simple reason those technologies are not economically feasible. While Capitalism may not be a totally fair or equitable system it is much better than anything else out there.

A good story about politicians my grandfather told me years ago is as follows, he was born at the turn of the century:

A farmer goes into his barn and puts a jug of white lighting, a $20 gold piece and a Bible on a bench.

He then goes out and calls over his 18 year old son and tells him, 'Son I want you to go in the barn and you take what you think you need off the bench. '

The son asks his father why.

The farmer tells his son, 'You are almost a man now and I will know what sort of man you will be by what you decide to take. '

The son goes in the barn and sees the jug, the money and the Bible. He puts the $20 gold piece in his pocket, uncorks the jug taking a big swig, tucks the Bible under one are and the jug under the other, and then walks out of the barn.

The farmer looks his son over and exclaims, 'Damn another politician'

Another antidote on politicians comes from a Texas Ranger years ago:

"Aint nothing lower than a child molester but a politician."

[Miami Bob]

I am perhaps more naive than you. I, myself, like to have some idea as to the policy choice and thier implications. I am seriously asking if the bis a better sourse than factchecker. I need to use something. In our day to day lives, friends and families disagree politaclly more often than not. Factchecky generally shows boths to me lacking in veracity. BUT many times one side is more full of it than the other.

This new world of super pacts in something that john mcCain has been talking about most of his career-the corruption of the entire process is a qualitatively different place.

In the past I generally voted democractic-I voted for ronald reagan and have always read most of the available stuff about him. The mitt who was the moderate governor of mass I would vote for any time and any place. The deals he is making now will likelky lead me to Obama. I am the other side of your coin.

[Matt Psyche]

Have you seen The Last Emperor? It was about the same time in China, and a good movie.

Thanks.


See the movie 1911.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1772230/

Some one said If you Do not remember your history you will repeat it.

The Rich screwing over the poor.

When asked after the European banks declined to give money to the ruling Dowager, if the rich would give money to fight the poor peoples revolution, same as is now, they would not depart with their money. And it is the same as Now we the working people have to pay for your wars.

While the Rich make money and we suffer.

Greed Is Good.

Shame on You!

[Rev BS]

Truth, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. We mongers know that. Yet, the beholden is often bound by circumstances often beyond his control or his ability even to understand himself. Uttering half-truths, rationalizing his behavior. Almost always, not guilty or insanity!

If nothing else, Obama's victory was a manifestation of new hopes / changes to an American political system that was / is broken, and McClain was just another tired retread of the old guard. Obama's victory was greeted joyously around the world (why? Think about that) , and history will show that it gave momentum to what we now call, the "Arab Spring". Most Americans were tuned out from that significance. The Wall St protests was an afterthought. Most polls show Americans wanted changes, but none that would affect them directly. Talk about dysfunctionality.

And so here we are in 2012. What do we have to show for it? Obama has not been the Messiah, he was not willing to be nailed to the cross. Yes, he was hijacked by the financial crisis, and from then on, his goal was relection. So, America will continue to stumble along, it's values and prestige decreasing everyday. But is Romney the answer? Well, he is if you believe in the status quo, and Big Business having the government in it's backpocket.

But life goes on, at least, I really have no complaints.

[WorldTravel69]

Let me start this off.

Why would you vote for either candidate?

I will start that the Republicans now think that Presidents Truman and Reagan are now too Socialistic?

Even though President Obama wants the same things as they did.

Watch MSNBC or HBO's Bill Mayer, and he is not a big fan of Obamas. As least watch hem for his jokes.
The best ones letely are about the Ex-Governor of Alaska. The quitter. They even made a movie about her on HBO. Watch it. I do feel sorry for Her. What a dummy.

And We All know that FOX is raceist.

Romney wants more money for his Morman (not Women) Cult. (His Rich friends, but not You!)

You Poor Mid Westerners.

And some dumb West Coast people that moved from their Mid Western Cities.

I have been in 71 countries trying to understand what other countries to really think about North American People.

What I am seeing on the AP site is that we are still playing and living parts in the old Movie."The Ugly Americans".

Come on Guys show that we are not as dumb! Speak up to these Republican Assholes they are!
Some dumb fuck has bumper stick for Romney, he has a nice BMW, but living in a shitty area and a dump, as I do.
How dumb can you be.
Romney is for the Rich, not you and Me.


Sorry Jackson YOU started This Thread!

[WorldTravel69]

Do you know what he said?

Bush said close the office on getting Ben Laden.

Obama said to reopen it and get him.

Check it on Google.

Everything Obama has done is within the law, which Bush did not do.

[Tiny12]

It's okay for WT69 to hate Republicans, Midwesterners, Mormons, Americans, and rich people. But people who watch Fox are racists.

When drones kill civilians and a Democrat is president he's a hero. If the same thing happens when a Republican is president then he and his buddies should go to jail.

WT69 should feel free to post whatever political drivel he wants on this board, but he believes that Republians and Libertarians should confine themselves to posting about poontang.

http://www.argentinaprivate.com/forum/showthread.php?5285-American-Politics-during-the-Obama-Administration&p=415924&viewfull=1#post415924

I see a pattern.

[WorldTravel69]

Bush and the Republicans would have killed more in the Wars, and just they voted for the more funds for the War.

The Republican southern land owners have always been Racist.

More slaves, so now since they can not use the blacks, they want to make you and me as their Slaves.

Are you so Blind?

Check the history of the United States.

The republicans Want Cheap Labor, in other words, NO UNIONS.

How about putting the Politicians on Social Security? Why do you and I have to pay for them.

I tried claiming them on my Tax Deductions. Why do they not count. I pay and you pay for these MotherFuckers as Exon would say.

Why do You Want to go back to the Same Bush Bullshit?

He put us in this Shit.

As ex Senator Bill Bradley said "Two Pit Bulls in One Ring gets Nowhere". It is not good for us people. But it looks the Republicans do not give a Shit about the People, only the Rich.


It's okay for WT69 to hate Republicans, Midwesterners, Mormons, Americans, and rich people. But people who watch Fox are racists.

When drones kill civilians and a Democrat is president he's a hero. If the same thing happens when a Republican is president then he and his buddies should go to jail.

WT69 should feel free to post whatever political drivel he wants on this board, but he believes that Republians and Libertarians should confine themselves to posting about poontang.

http://www.argentinaprivate.com/forum/showthread.php?5285-American-Politics-during-the-Obama-Administration&p=415924&viewfull=1#post415924

I see a pattern.

[El Alamo]

It appears we have the most racist administration in modern America's history. If Obama isn't flapping his mouth about Professor Gales and 'the police acted stupidly' he is injecting himself into the Zimmermann case without knowing one iota of what happened. Obama has a history of flapping his racist mouth before he can filter information through his peabrain mind. But what do you expect from someone who was spellbound by every word his racist pastor Jeremiah Wright uttered.

But we can understand Obama. He is a known quantity. What we cannot understand is how Obama's night of the living dead zombie supporters can suggest that non-supporters of Obama are racist.

[Esten]

Hey Tiny, hope you're doing well. There's no ban on posting here, post away.

The Obama campaign is now presenting to America Romney's "business experience". As they should. Romney thought all he had to do was refer to his business experience, and that people would believe he knows how to create jobs and is looking out for them. In fact the record shows he both created jobs and destroyed jobs, and in some cases cut pensions, whatever it took to maximize profit for Romney's equity firm. The GST Steel story is getting the most attention, it is worth a look to get some insight into this guy.

Romney Economics: Bankruptcy and Bailouts at GST Steel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMndjLIQUFw

[Toymann]

I have been in 71 countries trying to understand what other countries to really think about North American People.You have said this OVER and OVER Dude. Why would you assume that JUST BECAUSE you own a passport that makes you somehow in the know? At the end of the day, you are sadly just a UNION GUY that barely made it through high school. It shows in your political posts! As your union pension sadly isn't getting it done you now RAIL at the GOP. Isn't it Nancy and your crowd that should have provided you with a bettter LOT in life. Suggest YOU start railing at them. YOU don't KNOW WHAT YOU don't KNOW DUDE in spite of how many stamps ya have in your passport. Stupid is what stupid does. Toymann

[Jackson]

I have been in 71 countries trying to understand what other countries to really think about North American People.Yet another liberal myth: "The world doesn't like us!", accompanied by fervent hand-wringing and segueing into accusations that the USA is a "bad country".

Here's the reality:

Who gives a fuck about what other countries think about the "North American People"?

Do you think that other countries give a fuck about what we think about them?

Every country in the world makes their decisions regarding their own self-interests based upon what's best for their country, period.

Their decisions are never controlled by how well they are liked or disliked by the citizens of another country.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Member #4112]

Esten, don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

Team Obama is downright lying in their political ad about GST demise.

Sorry Charlie, Romney had been gone for about 2 years when GST went down the pipes, in case you have not noticed our steel industry is in pretty bad shape due to foreign countries subsidizing then dumping their steel here.

I just love it when liberals get all indignant when companies cut pensions, you guys are no different than those assholes in Greece who demand they get their welfare checks even though there is no money.

You can't hand out pension money when the company goes under. No company, no job and damn sure no pension payments, check with the guys at Solyndra about it. Another one of Obama's shining examples of business.

[Esten]

Romney was the chief executive of Bain Capital when they acquired the steel company, and certainly influenced the way the firm did business. They issued $125 million of bonds, and out of that they paid themselves almost $40 million. Then they went to the bankruptcy court, and sought elimination of the pension plan.

I guess you didn't watch the video Doppel. You should. It's the worker's own words.


John Wiseman, Steelworker: Bain Capital walked away with a lot of money that they made off of this plant because they took all of the money. We view Mitt Romney as a job destroyer.

Jack Cobb, Steelworker: To get up on national TV and brag about making jobs when he has destroyed thousands of people's careers, lifetimes, just destroying people.

David Foster, Lead negotiator: When it is a business model and when it is deliberate and when it is a thought out strategy on how to take the value out of a company in a reckless way and hurt others, and you then become a proponent of that strategy and talk about it as if it's the soul of capitalism and literally the soul of America, I think nothing could be more offensive.

[Jackson]

Sorry Charlie, Romney had been gone for about 2 years when GST went down the pipes, in case you have not noticed our steel industry is in pretty bad shape due to foreign countries subsidizing then dumping their steel here.Actually, 17 steel manufacturers went bankrupt that same year, including Bethlehem Steel, the largest steel maker in the country, all attributed to steel dumping by government subsidized foreign manufacturers.

Sorry to let the facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Member #4112]

Esten I have seen the ad and get real tired of the whining in it. The workers seem to think they are blameless in the demise of the firm.

Esten, GST issued the bonds and people bought them, so the people purchasing the bonds must have thought the company still had a chance to survive in the market place since no one forced them to by the bonds. Bain did not issue those bonds and as far as the pension plan, how many times do I have to say it, the company has to survive in the market place before there are jobs and pay checks much less pensions. Given the choice I am sure the workers would rather still have a job than a bankrupt pension plan due to the company folding. Why do liberals believe 'pensions' are a God given 'right'?

GST was not in good shape prior to Bain stepping in, so where is your ire for the prior owners who helped run the company into the ground in the first place? The lie serves Team Obama and your purposes to smear Romney who was long gone when GST went under, but never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

At least Bain used capital from willing participants who contributed their own money and not unwilling participates whose tax money was used to bail out GM, Chrysler to benefit Obama's allies in the UAW, or phony capitalism such as Solyndra and several others.

Industries in the US are constantly pricing themselves out of the market due to labor costs. This is not some socialist utopia where companies can produce products which cost more than they are sold for and remain in business.

[Esten]

The problem with the GST Steel story is the entire "profits before people" mentality it reeks of. Bain made a ton of money off the company. Before the bankruptcy they worked to undermine the union and cut corners on safety and maintenance. When the market went south, Bain sought to terminate agreements that had been previously negotiated with workers in the event of a plant closure. It's pension was underfunded by $44 million, and had to be bailed out by an agency of the federal government. All told, there was little regard for the workers who had helped create those profits.

It's understandable Republicans are trying to separate Romney from what happened at GST Steel. But it was his company, and his leadership determined how it operated.

More importantly, this is the brand of capitalism that Romney stands for. It's all about how much money the Wall Street firms can make. This mentality has damaged our country.

[El Alamo]

More importantly, this is the brand of capitalism that Romney stands for. It's all about how much money the Wall Street firms can make. This mentality has damaged our country.This mentality is what creates jobs and keeps us competitive in the world economy. Something that Obama and his night of the living dead zombie supporters are oblivious to.

[Member #4112]

Esten, you are right, profit before people! This is the problem with liberals; they want to put people before profit. I'm still waiting for your invective on the prior owners of GST who ran the company into the ditch, to use the Democrats favorite phrase, before Bain picked it up. Remember Bain took companies in trouble and tried to turn them around. Some were too far gone to be turned around.

Shining examples of this ideal, people before prfit, would be the USSR, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea and the entire mass of the old Eastern Block.

Without profit there would be no company to start with for the 'people' to benefit from. If you are trying to make the case for a break even scenario then there will be no funds for expansion much less for research and development to produce new products.

It does not do you any good to make the best buggy whip in the world when there are no more buggies!

[Member #4112]

Obama and the deficit

Esten, you are a great one for UTube, so let's try this one on for size.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzDySKW_BQ&sns=em

You can not complain about the source of the data since it comes from Obama's White House website.

The debt is staggering and continues to build. While Obama did not accumulate all the budget deficits but he has added over $5 trillion dollars to it in only 3 years and continues to advocate additional deficit spending.

The average person just can not wrap their mind around the how large the debt is and this video provides a great example of how they can relate to it on a personal basis.

With the impending default on its sovereign debt by Greece and either it's withdrawal or removal from the Euro Zone roiling the European markets as well as our own this make a potent commentary on our debt situation.

The waste in governmental agencies, while appalling, is but a side show to the real problem. Entitlement spending HAS TO BE CUT and Esten I am not talking about Medicare or Social Security, I'm talking about welfare and Medicaid and the myriad of other Federal feel good hand out programs out there! Medicare and Social Security will have to be adjusted to current actuarial projections and possibly means tested not to mention cleaning up the bureaucratic mess they are.

By the way, the author is a retired CPA.

[Esten]

Another Doppel dodge. We all know a company and jobs will not survive without profits. And if Bain had lost money on GST Steel it would be a different story. But that is not the case. Bain made big profits on GST Steel, then tried to shortchange the workers to maximize it's take in bankruptcy.

There are moral, ethical ways to run a business. And there are less moral, less ethical ways to run a business.

Even your boy Rick Perry understood this. He put Romney's Wall Street firm in the latter category.


“There is something inherently wrong when getting rich off failure and sticking it to someone else is how you do your business, and I happen to think that’s indefensible” — Rick Perry [National Journal, 1/10/12]

[Esten]

This mentality is what creates jobs and keeps us competitive in the world economy. Something that Obama and his night of the living dead zombie supporters are oblivious to.Statements like this exemplify how little some conservatives understand the economy.

You don't need to maximize profits for owners or Wall Street firms to create jobs. You just need profits. There is no guarantee that more profit motive/profit will create more jobs, or that less profit motive/profit will reduce jobs. If this were true, jobs would not have grown so much under the higher tax rates of the Clinton years, and jobs would not have stagnated under the lower tax rates of the Bush years. There's all the proof you need.

[El Alamo]

Statements like this exemplify how little some conservatives understand the economy.

You don't need to maximize Profits for owners or Wall Street firms to create jobs. You just need profits. There is no guarantee that more profit motive / profit will create more jobs, or that less profit motive / profit will reduce jobs. If this were true, jobs would not have grown so much under the higher tax rates of the Clinton years, and jobs would not have stagnated under the lower tax rates of the Bush years. There's all the proof you need.If this isn't the most birdbrain thinking I have ever heard I do not know what is. I think my dog Rocky has more intelligence than the above poster.

[Rev BS]

This mentality is what creates jobs and keeps us competitive in the world economy. Something that Obama and his night of the living dead zombie supporters are oblivious to.Is this the same mentality that imploded in 2008? One can have an enjoyable & satisfying life without winning the lottery or making $32+ million a year. However, I would not stop you from buying lottery tickets.

[El Alamo]

As far as I know business cycles are cyclical. There is nothing we can do about that. The last economic downturn was largely caused by barnie franks and friends allowing and then forcing lending institutions to write risky mortgages.

But that was the last economic cycle. We should be coming out of that economic downturn like a runaway train. Instead, thanks to Obama the economy is stagnant with no indication of a normal economic recovery.

[Member #4112]

The only dodging going on here is from my old friend Esten, you just can not stay on topic.

Esten, I was very clear, Profits before People or there is no company!

The only dodging going on now is from you with your nebulous B / S about different 'ethical' ways to run a business.

Of course you and Team Obama want to talk about venture capital and GST so you don't have to talk about Obama's dismissal record as President. I sure don't see Team Obama touting his greatest achievements, the Stimulus Package and ObamaCare not to mention his sterling performance on the economy and jobs. Obama is even back to blaming Bush again after over 3 years in office, so when does it become 'his'?

What no response on the YouTube post? I was ROFLMAO when I heard Obama claim he was spending at a lower rate during his first years in office than any president back to Reagan. Esten, even the White House web site graph shows he is spending more in 3. 4 years in office than Bush did in 8 years.

While we are on this topic Esten, where is the Anointed One's response to the Congressional Budget Office's projection of a recession if the Bush Tax Cuts expire and the automatic budget cuts go into effect? The silence is deafening.

Hell Esten, I'm not saying both sides aren't cherry picking numbers to make their points but when your own website makes a liar out of you and your own governmental agencies are shoving it up your ass, your boy is looking weak, very weak.

[Esten]

The only dodging going on here is from my old friend Esten, you just can not stay on topic.

Esten, I was very clear, Profits before People or there is no company!

The only dodging going on now is from you with your nebulous B / S about different 'ethical' ways to run a business.You're not fooling anyone with your dodging."Profits before people" is an expression for business greed. Typically when ownership does something to reward / enrich itself at the expense of workers or customers. For example, if a business had a good year and increased its profits from $100 million to $120 million, and the owners give themselves large bonuses, but tell the workers there will be no bonuses or merit increases because the company needs to grow faster. There are a bazillion examples. It's about fairness and ethics.

So once again you are wrong Doppel. Or rather, exposed for trying to dodge from the real issue of greed. If a company is profitable, it doesn't need to stiff workers or customers for the sake of even more profits. In fact if done too overtly that can harm a company. Though that's a moot point when a company is going out of business, which explains Bain's "profits before people" conduct when GST Steel went bankrupt.

[Member #4112]

Esten, your squirming around more than a $20 working girl in church with a trick waiting outside.

Let's start with dodging – none here just on your side.

I've always been very clear, I am an unrepentant capitalist.

Those who can, do. They are called EMPLOYERS.

Those who can't, don't. They are called EMPLOYEES.

Of course those who can't and don't, I. E. Employees, have Liberals to whine, *****, moan and groan about how 'unfair' it is that those who build enterprises to profit from building those enterprises. For some strange reason Liberals believe by virtue of being given a job that employee is now 'entitled' to share in the profits of those who started the business which gave them the job in the first place.

Your arguments about short changing employees and shoddy products or services to boost profits are equally without merit. Any firm who practices such will soon find it's best and most productive employees gone and the clients leaving as well. Such a business can not long exist unless of course it does so in your liberal utopian dream world.

Back to Bain Capital and GST Steel, still not a word about the folks who ran the company in the ditch in the first place. Regarding the funds you allege Bain 'stole', what about the funds Bain invested in the company in the first place? Bain picked up FAILING companies and tried to turn them around. Check their record. 22% of their acquisitions still went into bankruptcy but 78% become profitable. I would say that's a hell of a lot better record than Obama's crony capitalism by funding those who contribute to his campaign.

In my shop, the floggings will cease when moral improves.

[WorldTravel69]

The story as reported by Hitlers Secretary.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/ An Academy Award Nominee.

Sounds very Republican to me in today's World.

Watch it and give us your real opinions?

He said Fuck the people, his power is the right!
Bush, aka Romney.
Same politics.

[Punter 127]

He said Fuck the people, his power is the right! [snip]Obamacare???

[WorldTravel69]

Same thing. But it is Okay, because he is a Republican.


Obamacare???

[Jackson]

Same thing. But it is Okay, because he is a Republican.No, not the same thing.

Obamacare was rammed up America's ass by an incredibly narrow vote of 50.3% of Congress, and without a single vote from any congressional representatives outside the Democratic party. The voting was so narrow that Democratic Party leaders couldn't even risk sending their own bill back to the Senate where it would have been voted down, and instead they passed the old version passed by the Senate just prior to Scott Brown's election.

On the other hand...

The health care law passed in Massachusetts was supported overwhelmingly in the MA legislature with 198 house reps supporting the bill and only 2 voting against it – 99% voting in favor of the plan! The bill also passed through the state senate without a single dissenting vote.

The difference is that Gov. Romney and the Massachusetts legislature worked together and crafted a health bill that had the support of an overwhelming majority of the people of Massachusetts.

I believe that Obama and the Democrats should have done the same thing for the American people by working to create a bill that more Americans could have supported, but that would have required real leadership, something that Obama is completely lacking.

Once again, I apologize for letting the facts destroy a common liberal rant.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Esten]

I believe that Obama and the Democrats should have done the same thing for the American people by working to create a bill that more Americans could have supported, but that would have required real leadership, something that Obama is completely lacking.More right-wing propaganda.

Obama tried to work with Republicans, but all they did was stonewall Obama for political purposes. Remember what they said, if they could defeat the healthcare bill it would be Obama's Waterloo. The individual mandate was actually a Republican idea back in the 1990s. Republicans were for the individual mandate before they were against it. They said it promoted personal responsibility, and discouraged freeloaders.

It's 100% politics with the Republicans. It is too bad they refused to work with Democrats on health care reform, an important issue for most Americans. Instead, all Republicans have done is divided America.

[Esten]

Doppel really wants me to say something nice about private equity. Sure, I can indulge. Private equity can be a very good thing. It can create jobs, and profits, and prosperity. And yes, Bain Capital did this in many cases. How workers were treated and prosperity shared are separate questions.

However, PE can also be exploitative. Just as we saw with some aspects of Bain and GST Steel. Can Doppel stop dodging and just admit that?

Listening to Romney try to convince us we need to coddle Wall Street even more, is laughable. All such policies do is steer prosperity to the top, increasing economic inequality.

Obama summed it up well:


"If your main argument for how to grow the economy is `I knew how to make a lot of money for investors,' then you're missing what this job is about." "It doesn't mean you weren't good at private equity, but that's not what my job is as president. My job is to take into account everybody, not just some. My job is to make sure that the country is growing not just now, but 10 years from now and 20 years from now."

[Tiny12]

It's 100% politics with the Republicans. It is too bad they refused to work with Democrats on health care reform, an important issue for most Americans. Instead, all Republicans have done is divided America.Esten, Jackson's got a point. If Romney was able to get health care reform passed with 99% support and Obama couldn't get the support of a single Republican, that would indicate Romney has a much better chance of bringing the country together. Obama has very little consideration for the 46% of the population that didn't vote for him. He's constantly looking to score political points. He doesn't give a crap if his positions provide "0" benefit to the country and disadvantage or antagonize citizens, as long as the positions result in a net gain of votes.

For example, I agree with a woman's right to choose and availability of birth control for all, as do most Americans, and I've contributed to Planned Parenthood. But when government provides funding for abortions and forces religious institutions to pay for birth control, you're forcing a segment of the population to pay for practices that it views as abhorrent. Rightly or wrongly (wrongly in my opinion) there are certain Baptists and Catholics out there that believe it's equivalent to their tax dollars paying for SS death squads to kill Jews. But what's the point? To divide the country and get more votes? The consumer and charities will pay for this anyway. When Texas passed a law to stop providing the state's money to abortion clinics, the Obama administration elected to cut off funding to the Texas Women's Health Program for low income women. Why not? That was a no brainer for Obama. More votes from his base, and he's not going to win Texas in this year's election anyway.

Another example is the centerpiece of his campaign, to tax the shit out of the top 1%, leave taxes at current levels on everyone else, and continue to spend like a drunken sailor. This plays well to the electorate, but, as he well knows, it's not going to balance the budget.

[Big Boss Man]

What's strange on Obamacare is that he did extract concessions from his base the unions. I work for a utility and get almost the same as the union guys in health benefits. Because I have high medical bills, especially dental and vision, I lost $7500 in income write off this year compared to last year. Of course this came out as raising healthcare costs for families with special needs children. But it really affects everyone making 6 figures who have high medical bills. Of course if you making 50k to 60k like the median household in America you get less tax write off and it was less of a hit. If I can get past my medical issues than of course it is not a lost benefit.

[Punter 127]

Comparing Track Records: Mitt Romney's Private Equity vs Barack Obama's Public Equity

By now everyone is well aware what the main tension involving this year's presidential campaign as far as Mitt Romney is concerned, will be his professional past, namely his experience at, and exposure to, Bain Capital. By now most have also gotten a sense of the angle of attack that the incumbent will rely on in order to discredit his GOP challenger, and if they haven't, they will soon enough: after all in Obama's own words "Mitt Romney's record at Bain Capital is what this campaign is going to be about." In other words, Romney's history with managing private (emphasis added) equity. Yet at Marc Thiessen at the WaPo points out, the logical retort from the Romney camp would be to shift attention to something potentially more embarrassing: Obama's record with public equity. Because, frankly, it is deplorable. And while one may debate the number of job losses at the companies that Bain took private, the driving prerogative for Romney was to generate value for his investors and shareholders. This in itself will hardly be debated by Obama. In other words, for any and all of his other failings, Romney succeeded at his primary task. The question then is: did Obama do the same? Did he succeed in investing public equity, I. E, the taxpayer capital that the US financial mechanism has afforded him. Sadly, the answer appears to be a resounding no.

As Thiessen notes:

Since taking office, Obama has invested billions of taxpayer dollars in private businesses, including as part of his stimulus spending bill. Many of those investments have turned out to be unmitigated disasters — leaving in their wake bankruptcies, layoffs, criminal investigations and taxpayers on the hook for billions.

One could just utter the world Solyndra here, and all would be made clear. However, that is just the beginning. Here are some other notable public equity failings of the administration:

Raser Technologies. In 2010, the Obama administration gave Raser a $33 million taxpayer-funded grant to build a power plant in Beaver Creek, Utah. According to the Wall Street Journal, after burning through our tax dollars, the company filed for bankruptcy protection in 2012. The plant now has fewer than 10 employees, and Raser owes $1. 5 million in back taxes.

ECOtality. The Obama administration gave ECOtality $126. 2 million in taxpayer money in 2009 for, among other things, the installation of 14, 000 electric car chargers in five states. Obama even hosted the company's president, Don Karner, in the first lady's box during the 2010 State of the Union address as an example of a stimulus success story. According to ECOtality's own SEC filings, the company has since incurred more than $45 million in losses and has told the federal government, 'We may not achieve or sustain profitability on a quarterly or annual basis in the future. ' Worse, according to CBS News the company is 'under investigation for insider trading, ' and Karner has been subpoenaed 'for any and all documentation surrounding the public announcement of the first Department of Energy grant to the company. '

Nevada Geothermal Power (NGP). The Obama administration gave NGP a $98. 5 million taxpayer loan guarantee in 2010. The New York Times reported last October that the company is in 'financial turmoil' and that '[a]fter a series of technical missteps that are draining Nevada Geothermal's cash reserves, its own auditor concluded in a filing released last week that there was 'significant doubt about the company's ability to continue as a going concern. '&8201; '

First Solar. The Obama administration provided First Solar with more than $3 billion in loan guarantees for power plants in Arizona and California. According to a Bloomberg Businessweek report last week, the company 'fell to a record low in Nasdaq Stock Market trading May 4 after reporting $401 million in restructuring costs tied to firing 30 percent of its workforce. '

Abound Solar, Inc. The Obama administration gave Abound Solar a $400 million loan guarantee to build photovoltaic panel factories. According to Forbes, in February the company halted production and laid off 180 employees.

Beacon Power. The Obama administration gave Beacon — a green-energy storage company — a $43 million loan guarantee. According to CBS News, at the time of the loan, 'Standard and Poor's had confidentially given the project a dismal outlook of 'CCC-plus. ' ' In the fall of 2011, Beacon received a delisting notice from Nasdaq and filed for bankruptcy.

It gets worse:

A company called SunPower got a $1. 2 billion loan guarantee from the Obama administration, and as of January, the company owed more than it was worth. Brightsource got a $1. 6 billion loan guarantee and posted a string of net losses totaling $177 million. And, of course, let's not forget Solyndra — the solar panel manufacturer that received $535 million in taxpayer-funded loan guarantees and went bankrupt, leaving taxpayers on the hook.

Yet if it was merely pure incompetence from a president without any real business background, that would at least explain it, if not justify it. However, it appears that inexcusable crony capitalism Plays a far greater role in Obama's public equity failings:

Obama has declared that all the projects received funding 'based solely on their merits. ' But as Hoover Institution scholar Peter Schweizer reported in his book, 'Throw Them All Out, ' fully 71 percent of the Obama Energy Department's grants and loans went to 'individuals who were bundlers, members of Obama's National Finance Committee, or large donors to the Democratic Party. ' Collectively, these Obama cronies raised $457, 834 for his campaign, and they were in turn approved for grants or loans of nearly $11. 35 billion. Obama said this week it's not the president's job 'to make a lot of money for investors. ' Well, he sure seems to have made a lot of (taxpayer) money for investors in his political machine.

All that cronyism and corruption is catching up with the administration. According to Politico, 'The Energy Department's inspector general has launched more than 100 criminal investigations' related to the department's green-energy programs.

So while attacking Romney for his beliefs, views, and outlook on life may be one thing, Obama may be wise to redirect his current strategy of attacking Romney's professional background, unless the tables are turned, and his own track record of gross public capital missalocation ends up under the prime time microscope.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/comparing-track-records-mitt-romneys-private-equity-vs-barack-obamas-public-equityI'm not convinced Romney will make a good president, but I am convince Obama is a bad one, possibly the worst ever.

[El Alamo]

I'm not convinced Romney will make a good president, but I am convince Obama is a bad one, possibly the worst ever.I could not agree more. I don't know who is the bigger disappointment. Obama or his night of the living dead zombie supporters.

Basically Obama is a shallow intellect who somehow strikes a chord with underachievers who have no plans, no ideas and no dreams.

[Damman]

Romney: This piece of shit is the most despicable excuse for a Presidential candidate ever created. Supported the draft in 1965 while he was immune from service on some BS Mormon missionary deferment. Give me a break. Flag waving chicken-hawk fuck.

Now that I have that off my chest, hope everyone is doing good.

[Jackson]

Romney: This piece of shit is the most despicable excuse for a Presidential candidate ever created. Supported the draft in 1965 while he was immune from service on some BS Mormon missionary deferment. Give me a break. Flag waving chicken-hawk fuck.I have no idea how the Republicans will be able to defend Romney's lack of military service, especially in comparison to Obama's stellar military career.

[Rev BS]

The last economic downturn was largely caused by barnie franks and friends allowing and then forcing lending institutions to write risky mortgages.I think you must be a ping-pong player, I get so dizzy, the spin is so extreme. You check out your tongue lately?

Not that the liberals do not have their extreme spin. But the fact is that Obama has lean more to the right and central so much that he has pissed off a large percentage of his support. But he will do more for them in his 2nd term, relection is the primary goal.

[Jackson]

Obama tried to work with Republicans, but all they did was stonewall Obama for political purposes.How exactly was Obamacare "stonewalled" by the Republicans? The Dems passed the bill, remember?

Anyway, to refute the claim that "Obama tried to work with Republicans", please cite just one Republican idea that was accepted by the Dems and subsequently included in the ObamaCare bill.

The fact is that the Republicans had dozens of ideas, all of which were in reality "stonewalled" by the Dems who refused even to allow any Republican amendments to be debated in the House committees or on the House floor.

My point is that "working with" means compromising with the other party, not merely listening to and then subsequently dismissing their ideas. If the Dems had actually compromised with the Republicans (tort reform, buying insurance across state lines, portability, i.e.) then ObamaCare would have enjoyed something more than zero bi-partisan support.

We have every right to expect our politicians to work together and compromise in fashioning legislation that more of us could have supported. Unfortunately, that takes real leadership, a talent that Obama sorely lacks.

Sorry, but another liberal myth bites the dust.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Punter 127]

Not that the liberals do not have their extreme spin. But the fact is that Obama has lean more to the right and central so much that he has pissed off a large percentage of his support. But he will do more for them in his 2nd term, relection is the primary goal. [snip]Anyone on the fence between Obama and Romney should heed this warning.

Thanks for exposing Obamas true goals.

[Matt Psyche]

1) Last summer, John Boehner did not support the compromised, Senate version of the debt extension bill, which was supported by the Senate Republicans as well. As a result, Obama signed the House Republican version with few modifications in order to avoid default. Immediately, this brinksmanship politics caused the sharp stock market downturn. I am sure many guys here remember this.

2) As for compromise in politics, the electoral districts in the US are single member districts, unlike some other countries using proportional representation system. Plus, increasing number of districts in the US are getting dominantly Republican or dominantly Democratic districts. So, for politicians, a compromise would dangerously upset a great majority of voters in their districts while uncompromising and causing a stalemate would enhance / keep their popularity within, if not across, their districts.

3) Before Clinton, there were more bipartisan legislation. But it was largely because the Southern Democrats were conservative- defacto GOP with the Demo name. The SDs became Republicans in the 90s.


How exactly was Obamacare "stonewalled" By the Republicans? The Dems passed the bill, remember?

Anyway, to refute the claim that "Obama tried to work with Republicans", please cite just one Republican idea that was accepted by the Dems and subsequently included in the ObamaCare bill.

The fact is that the Republicans had dozens of ideas, all of which were in reality "stonewalled" By the Dems who refused even to allow any Republican amendments to be debated in the House committees or on the House floor.

My point is that "working with" Means compromising with the other party, not merely listening to and then subsequently dismissing their ideas. If the Dems had actually compromised with the Republicans (tort reform, buying insurance across state lines, portability, I. E.) then ObamaCare would have enjoyed something more than zero bi-partisan support.

We have every right to expect our politicians to work together and compromise in fashioning legislation that more of us could have supported. Unfortunately, that takes real leadership, a talent that Obama sorely lacks.

Sorry, but another liberal myth bites the dust.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Matt Psyche]

Indicators seems to suggest that Republicans selected the most intelligent and competent guy for their p. Candidate just as they did four years ago.


Romney: This piece of shit is the most despicable excuse for a Presidential candidate ever created. Supported the draft in 1965 while he was immune from service on some BS Mormon missionary deferment. Give me a break. Flag waving chicken-hawk fuck.

Now that I have that off my chest, hope everyone is doing good.

[WorldTravel69]

On Governor Romney's bill the Republicans and the Democrats worked together on it.

But, on the Health Care bill President Obama purposed, the Republicans sat on their collected thumbs.

Maybe if they got off their thumbs, and worked together on it the Country would have gotten the Health Care bill that is needed for All.

Also, Job bills have been proposed and the Republicans still sit on their thumbs. This has to be the worse congress that the Country has had.


No, not the same thing.

Obamacare was rammed up America's ass by an incredibly narrow vote of 50. 3% of Congress, and without a single vote from any congressional representatives outside the Democratic party. The voting was so narrow that Democratic Party leaders couldn't even risk sending their own bill back to the Senate where it would have been voted down, and instead they passed the old version passed by the Senate just prior to Scott Brown's election.

On the other hand.

The health care law passed in Massachusetts was supported overwhelmingly in the MA legislature with 198 house reps supporting the bill and only 2 voting against it – 99% voting in favor of the plan! The bill also passed through the state senate without a single dissenting vote.

The difference is that Gov. Romney and the Massachusetts legislature worked together and crafted a health bill that had the support of an overwhelming majority of the people of Massachusetts.

I believe that Obama and the Democrats should have done the same thing for the American people by working to create a bill that more Americans could have supported, but that would have required real leadership, something that Obama is completely lacking.

Once again, I apologize for letting the facts destroy a common liberal rant.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Jackson]

On Governor Romney's bill the Republicans and the Democrats worked together on it.

But, on the Health Care bill President Obama purposed, the Republicans sat on their collected thumbs.This is like shooting ducks in a shooting gallery, except that these ducks are too stupid to stay down after they've been shot.

Anyway, here's the response to your liberal lie myth that "Republicans sat on their collected thumbs':


Anyway, to refute the claim that "Obama tried to work with Republicans", please cite just one Republican idea that was accepted by the Dems and subsequently included in the ObamaCare bill.

The fact is that the Republicans had dozens of ideas, all of which were in reality "stonewalled" by the Dems who refused even to allow any Republican amendments to be debated in the House committees or on the House floor.Thanks,

Jackson

[Jackson]

Also, Job bills have been proposed and the Republicans still sit on their thumbs. This has to be the worse congress that the Country has had.Those weren't jobs bills, they were tax-borrow-spend bills.

When will liberals ever learn that we cannot tax, borrow and spend our way to prosperity?

The answer is: They don't care, because borrowing money today allows them to payoff their supporters today while handing the bill to the taxpayers of tomorrow, all of which is an indirect method of redistributing wealth.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Esten]

Wow, Romney passing bipartisan healthcare reform in Massachusetts. Ted Kennedy's state! LMAO! Give me a break. That's like Obama working with Republicans on a tax cut. Furthermore, only 8% of Massachusetts residents were uninsured. It wasn't a monumental achievement.

On the other hand, Obama has faced the most obstructionist (Republican) party that perhaps this country has ever witnessed. They wanted to bring him down on healthcare to make it his "Waterloo", and have proclaimed their #1 goal is to defeat him. Rather difficult to get bipartisan support when that is what you're up against.

The Affordable Care Act has at least 2 Republican ideas: the individual mandate, and a private sector focus (no public option). Those are 2 core elements of the new law, and should have provided enough common ground to gain some bipartisan support. Of course Obama wanted bipartisan support on health care reform, it looks good when you do get it. But when (finally) he realized Republicans were against him, he and Dems forged ahead alone rather than not fulfill their campaign promise.

Real leadership means sometimes doing things that are unpopular, but the right thing to do.

I agree it is important that our elected officials be able to compromise. Unfortunately, Republicans signed a pledge to an outside interest group never to compromise on taxes.

[Member #4112]

Yes Esten, ObamaCare was so popular it lead to the Democratic slaughter in 2010. I think we need another one of those Democratic "success" stories again in 2012 as well.

ObamaCare was so well crafted it is about to be over turned in the Supreme Court. It is not a matter of if it will be over turned it is only a matter of if only the mandate or the entire piece of crap is going to be over turned.

If obstruction is what you want to talk about, how about the Democrat control Senate. For a Democrat it is compromise only if the Republicans surrender and go along, if not then it's obstruction. So what do you call a Senate which will not even bring up bills for debate on the floor after they have been passed by the publicly elected represenatives of the people in the House of Represenatives, to use the phrase so often thrown out there by Obama.

[Matt Psyche]

A majority party does not "control" Senate. Any senators can impede a bill they do not like through filibuster, which can be stopped by 60 senators. So. 41 senators of a minority party can stop legislation. Today, threats, rather than exercise, of filibuster are frequently used, and they are effective enough to stop or modify legislation.


If obstruction is what you want to talk about, how about the Democrat control Senate. For a Democrat it is compromise only if the Republicans surrender and go along, if not then it's obstruction. So what do you call a Senate which will not even bring up bills for debate on the floor after they have been passed by the publicly elected represenatives of the people in the House of Represenatives, to use the phrase so often thrown out there by Obama.

[WorldTravel69]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/republican-ideas


How exactly was Obamacare "stonewalled" By the Republicans? The Dems passed the bill, remember?

Anyway, to refute the claim that "Obama tried to work with Republicans", please cite just one Republican idea that was accepted by the Dems and subsequently included in the ObamaCare bill.

The fact is that the Republicans had dozens of ideas, all of which were in reality "stonewalled" By the Dems who refused even to allow any Republican amendments to be debated in the House committees or on the House floor.

My point is that "working with" Means compromising with the other party, not merely listening to and then subsequently dismissing their ideas. If the Dems had actually compromised with the Republicans (tort reform, buying insurance across state lines, portability, I. E.) then ObamaCare would have enjoyed something more than zero bi-partisan support.

We have every right to expect our politicians to work together and compromise in fashioning legislation that more of us could have supported. Unfortunately, that takes real leadership, a talent that Obama sorely lacks.

Sorry, but another liberal myth bites the dust.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Member #4112]

WT69 that is not quite true when Harry Reed, who controls what goes to floor for debate, will not even put the House bills before the Senate for debate. So you are being disingenuous when you mention the 60 vote requirement.

[Matt Psyche]

Senators can talk about anything and any bills at any time. Doesn't matter if Reid or minority leader stops particular agenda. Probably Reid did not bring the bill to the floor because there were no more than 60 supporters for the bill. Again, more than 41 senators, which include majority party members and leader as well as minority members, can stop any legislation. Senate is different from the House. Plus, I am not WT69.


WT69 that is not quite true when Harry Reed, who controls what goes to floor for debate, will not even put the House bills before the Senate for debate. So you are being disingenuous when you mention the 60 vote requirement.

[Esten]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-care-meeting/republican-ideasCheckmate for WT69! Plenty of Republican ideas in the Affordable Care Act.

Sorry Jax.

[Esten]

Those who can, do. They are called EMPLOYERS.

Those who can't, don't. They are called EMPLOYEES.This seems like an appropriate time to introduce a term that has sometimes occured to me when reading this thread. A new term never coined before, introduced right here on AP:

Golden Businessman Syndrome

Just like Golden Pussy Syndrome, but for a businessman. Now just like not all chicas have GPS, not all businessmen have GBS. Just some, typically right-wing businessmen. It's an attitude that they are superior and beyond reproach, no matter what they may say or do.

Most businesses depend on the labor of others. Many businesses also depend on skills that the owners do not posess. The company wouldn't exist without those workers and their skills, just like the workers wouldn't have jobs without the owners. It's a mutual relationship. Each group benefits the other. It's also sound economic policy to ensure workers share in prosperity, vs. letting owners simply maximize their take. You don't have a strong economy without a strong middle class.

Clearly Doppel, you're an elitist like Romney. Why don't you repeat your quote above to your employees.

[Silver Star]

This seems like an appropriate time to introduce a term that has sometimes occured to me when reading this thread. A new term never coined before, introduced right here on AP:

Golden Businessman Syndrome

Just like Golden Pussy Syndrome, but for a businessman. Now just like not all chicas have GPS, not all businessmen have GBS. Just some, typically right-wing businessmen. It's an attitude that they are superior and beyond reproach, no matter what they may say or do.

Most businesses depend on the labor of others. Many businesses also depend on skills that the owners do not posess. The company wouldn't exist without those workers and their skills, just like the workers wouldn't have jobs without the owners. It's a mutual relationship. Each group benefits the other. It's also sound economic policy to ensure workers share in prosperity, vs. Letting owners simply maximize their take. You don't have a strong economy without a strong middle class.

Clearly Doppel, you're an elitist like Romney. Why don't you repeat your quote above to your employees.Anybody like Gary Johnson (Libertarian) for President 2012?

www.garyjohnson2012.com

Bullet Points.

Balance Budget Now.

Out of Afghanistan Now.

Pro Pot Legalization.

Pro Same Sex Marriage.

Pro Business and Pro Civil Liberties.

Fred

[TejanoLibre]

Anybody like Gary Johnson (Libertarian) for President 2012?

www.garyjohnson2012.com

Bullet Points.

Balance Budget Now.

Out of Afghanistan Now.

Pro Pot Legalization.

Pro Same Sex Marriage.

Pro Business and Pro Civil Liberties.

FredYou guys got what you wanted!

Now live with it!

TL

[Jackson]

Checkmate for WT69! Plenty of Republican ideas in the Affordable Care Act.

Sorry Jax.Yea, like I'm going to accept Obama's propaganda website as evidence.

Here's the real evidence: Not one single non-Democratic congressman could be convinced or persuaded to vote for the ObamaCare bill.

Everything else is just a smokescreen.

Thanks,

Jax

[Silver Star]

Yea, like I'm going to accept Obama's propaganda website as evidence.

Here's the real evidence: Not one single non-Democratic congressman could be convinced or persuaded to vote for the ObamaCare bill.

Everything else is just a smokescreen.

Thankshttp://cdn.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV?id=%7BE8C60B03-8F6B-43E8-93C9-1DF15A79AE0D%7D&title=2009%20Romney%20Says%20Obama%20Plan%20Is%20Following%20RomenyCare%20Model
Romney in 2009 on RomneyCare and Obama Care.

The 2 plans are much the same (individual mandate) so Romney has basically Flip Flopped again for political gain.

More Romney flipflops at mittromneyflipflops.com

Gov Gary Johnson (Libertarian) was against Obama Care from the start, no flip flop. (Principled)

(need help on how to hotlink)

Fred

[WorldTravel69]

Something we don't hear about in mainstream media is what happened in Iceland. The people revolted. They kicked out the entire government and kicked out the banksters. It started because the "women" had enough and weren't going to take it anymore.

The women started the "Pots and Pan Brigade."

They got together and banged pots and pans with metal spoons, etc. And made a enough noise loud enough that everyone in the government and everywhere else could hear it. They apparently stood outside government buildings and did this. Politicians were left cowering in their offices. After they took down their entire government, they jailed politicians and government officials.

Essentially they took their country back. The women inspired other women, then they inspired men.

There is going to be a "worldwide pots and pan brigade" on Thursday May 31, 2012.

From a News Story:

THE LADIES STEPPED UP AND RECOVERED THEIR COUNTRY'S ECONOMY.

The government of Iceland has forgiven the mortgage debt for much of its population. This nation chose a very different way of stopping the crisis from the rest of European countries. It decided to hear the requests of the population and to put politicians and bankers on the bench of the accused three years after their financial excesses would sank one of the most prosperous economies in 2008.

[Member #4112]

Is this best that you can do Esten? How pathetic.

One the last bastions of those who have run out of arguments and ideas is to start name calling.

When I left Arthur Anderson and started my own practice I left hundreds of other CPAs behind. Over time my practice continued to grow and I hired others to work for me. Any of the CPAs working for me can do the same this very minute. Just as any of the CPAs I left behind at AA could have left as well and started practices, but they don't. They prefer to work for others and not take the risk.

It is the few who 'do' and the many who 'don't'. I have no problem with those who 'don't' and CHOOSE to be employees. I have no syndrome what so ever beyond the willingness to take the risk associated with starting a business and producing a product the market will purchase. I take the risks and reap rewards. I have made both stupid and brilliant decisions from which only I lose or profit.

It is unrepentant capitalism which made this country great, offering the ability to make the better mouse trap and prosper. It is the qusi-socialist, everyone has to share, 'it's not fair' mentality which will destroy this great country.

When I see the 'Occupy' people out there with their 99% vs 1% signs it makes me ill.

As I saw my son-in-law off to his first deployment to Afghanistan yesterday, I saw another family member holding a sign with the photo of a soldier at the top of a hill at sunrise. The caption read 99% of Americans will wake up this morning and enjoy freedom. 1% of Americans will wake up this morning and defend it. My friend, those are the true 1%ers

[Toymann]

As I saw my son-in-law off to his first deployment to Afghanistan yesterday, I saw another family member holding a sign with the photo of a soldier at the top of a hill at sunrise. The caption read 99% of Americans will wake up this morning and enjoy freedom. 1% of Americans will wake up this morning and defend it. My friend, those are the true 1%ersSadly WT69, Esten and the like have neither the education or intelligence to understand such an eloquent arguement dude. They are too busy howling at the moon.

By the way, as I predicted long ago on this board Romney is now the GOP presidential candidate. In November, the other half of my long ago prediction will come true. Tick. Tick. Tick, Monger on Dude. Toymann

[Toymann]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/report-gop-outside-groups-plan-spend-more-1-142453576.html

Interesting article on Yahoo today. What happened to the great Obama fund raising machine. You mean the "occupy people" aren't opening their wallets to support their great leader. IALOTFLMAO! Tick! Tick! Tick! And you all thought the 2010 democrat slaughter was impressive. Just wait till November! Happy Mongering All. Toymann.

Ps. One thing about Obamanation. He sure knows how to fire up the republican base! And he thinks Romney is "out of touch". Give me a friggin break!

[Esten]

First Doppel said employees are people who "can't". Now he says they "can".

Pure backpeddling. If it were an isolated occurence I might be inclined to cut him some slack. However this attitude of superiority has reared it's ugly head before, and is a theme that runs through his entire discourse on business and the economy. He may not like the name, but IMO Doppel is an elitist. Just a statement of fact as I see it.

What does military service have to do with this discussion? Nothing. I gather he segued into that as a play for sympathy or respect, after what he said. Well he's played that card now, and will need a new ploy next time. Maybe next time his true colors become too obvious, he'll tell us how as a kid his puppy got sick, or how he once helped an old lady cross the street.

Right wing businessmen seem to forget how the Golden Age of Capitalism (~ 1945-1975) coincided with significant government initiatives and investments, and the highest tax rates in the past century. It was balanced capitalism. Again we are reminded that business success does not teach one how to build a strong economy.

[WorldTravel69]

Watch this.

http://www.history.com/shows/hatfields-and-mccoys

North against the South or as now Republicans against Democrats.

Same war different times.

They were families against each other.

What has changed?

Only Money!

[Jackson]

Something we don't hear about in mainstream media is what happened in Iceland. The people revolted. They kicked out the entire government and kicked out the banksters. It started because the "women" had enough and weren't going to take it anymore.

The women started the "Pots and Pan Brigade."

They got together and banged pots and pans with metal spoons, etc. And made a enough noise loud enough that everyone in the government and everywhere else could hear it. They apparently stood outside government buildings and did this. Politicians were left cowering in their offices. After they took down their entire government, they jailed politicians and government officials.

Essentially they took their country back. The women inspired other women, then they inspired men.

There is going to be a "worldwide pots and pan brigade" on Thursday May 31, 2012.

From a News Story:

THE LADIES STEPPED UP AND RECOVERED THEIR COUNTRY'S ECONOMY.

The government of Iceland has forgiven the mortgage debt for much of its population. This nation chose a very different way of stopping the crisis from the rest of European countries. It decided to hear the requests of the population and to put politicians and bankers on the bench of the accused three years after their financial excesses would sank one of the most prosperous economies in 2008.Hey WT,

Is this what you want for America? A country run by it's women?

Then why did you post this bullshit?

Of course, by many measures the USA is already a gynocracy.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Jackson]

.business success does not teach one how to build a strong economy.Esten,

Do you ever read some of the things you write?

So exactly what experience does "teach one how to build a strong economy"?

A few years as a college law professor?

Lifetime employment as a government bureaucrat?

A professional career as a liberal politician?

ROTFLMAO!

Thanks,

Jackson

[Member #4112]

Esten, the only conclusion I can arrive at is you are blind, deaf and dumb when it comes to this discussion and anyone who disagrees with your point of view.

Esten do you even read the post before you start your response? You follow the great tradition of all liberals by taking "can" completely out of context. The only time I referred to "can" is when I pointed out those who CHOOSE to remain employees have the same opportunity to start a business but do not and prefer to not take the risk. Again, those who can, do; those who can't, don't. How can you even argue the point?

Again read the post, the "Occupy" movement always refers to the 99%, are you so inarticulate you are unable to make the connection between the 'Occupy' 99% and the 99% in the following sentence?

The 'Golden Age' you referred to was marked by much less regulation by the Federal Government and its subsequent interference with business, making my point of less not more Government intrusion into business for me.

Esten, for your edification here is the definition of elite or elitist: A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status.

The only one I see here who believes his views are superior to all others and anyone who disagrees with his views are barbarians would be you.

I see you are back to name calling again. Please be a bit more original. Surely you can do better than those on MSNBC

[El Alamo]

Many people are qualified to build a strong economy.

I can tell you the qualifications of someone who is completely unqualified to build a strong economy.

A few years as a college law professor.

Lifetime employment as a government bureaucrat.

A professional career as a liberal politician.

Expecting Obama to build a strong economy is similar to expecting a midget to be MVP in the NBA

[WorldTravel69]

Their Government took off all the regulations. They Privatized the banks.

"The people revolted. They kicked out the entire government and kicked out the banksters."

And we did nothing to our crooks!

http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/


Hey WT,

Is this what you want for America? A country run by it's women?

Then why did you post this bullshit?

Of course, by many measures the USA is already a gynocracy.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Rev BS]

Really, it was not that long ago, so how did we get to this stage? Yes, it is all about money. Not that money is evil, we need it to put food on the table and a roof over our head. America, the richest country with the highest standard of living is beyond this point. It is the next stage that get us in trouble, the allure of over consumption and spending, and the prestige and status that the comes along with material goods. Human greed, nothing new.

Personal responsiblity vs corporate responsiblity. At one time, Las Vegas was where you could fulfill your fantasies once or twice a year. I lost my ass many-a-time, but the fun was memorable and was inexpensive compared to the table losses. As with the financial institutions of today, you had to be wary of the easy credit suggested by the ever-present pit boss. Yes, America today is one giant Las Vegas. The Mafia is still alive and doing even better. We are wading in the swamp with housing mortgages, credit cards and student loans all in crisis. On the sideline, education and healthcare costs are spiraling. Like the free / cheap buffets / shows of yesteryear Las Vegas, they are long gone. Las Vegas has gone corporate.

So, for the drill-baby-drill crowd, pause, and try to suck in some fresh air (if you can find it). At some point, more does not mean better. We know any addiction is hard to break. I am still over spending in Bangkok.

[Jackson]

Their Government took off all the regulations. They Privatized the banks.

"The people revolted. They kicked out the entire government and kicked out the banksters."

And we did nothing to our crooks!

http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/No, no, no, you don't get to pretend that you didn't post what you actually posted.

Here's what you posted:


It started because the "women" had enough and weren't going to take it anymore.

The women started the "Pots and Pan Brigade."

They got together and banged pots and pans with metal spoons, etc. And made a enough noise loud enough that everyone in the government and everywhere else could hear it. They apparently stood outside government buildings and did this. Politicians were left cowering in their offices. After they took down their entire government, they jailed politicians and government officials.

Essentially they took their country back. The women inspired other women, then they inspired men.So I'm going to ask you again:

Is this what you want?

Do you advocate a country run by women?

Do you want to be governed by women?

If not, then why did you post this?

Please explain.

Thanks,

Jackson

[WorldTravel69]

The women started the protest.

Just like us ex-long hairs did protesting the Vietnam War. We protesters in the streets started the ball rolling.

We banged pots and beat on drums. We made noise.

You asked if I wanted a country run by women?

That is not what was said.

Where did you pick that up from?

http://www.hermes-press.com/iceland_index.htm


No, no, no, you don't get to pretend that you didn't post what you actually posted.

Here's what you posted:

So I'm going to ask you again:

Is this what you want?

Do you advocate a country run by women?

Do you want to be governed by women?

If not, then why did you post this?

Please explain.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Esten]

Here's some more definitions for you Doppel:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=elitist


One the last bastions of those who have run out of arguments and ideas is to start name calling.
Esten, the only conclusion I can arrive at is you are blind, deaf and dumb when it comes to this discussion LMAO !!

[Member #4112]

Here's some more definitions for you Doppel:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=elitist

LMAO!Esten, you have just provided the description of yourself to a "T".

Do you even read what others post before responding or what you quote from their post? From your responses it does not appear you do.

Still calling those who do not agree with you names, very sad.

[El Alamo]

Wow! Exactly as some on this board predicted. Obama will destroy a normal economic recovery. If it isn't increased taxes, runaway debt or trillions of taxpayer $$$$$ wasted on Obama's birdbrain business ventures it is unnecessary regulations. And Obama's night of the living dead zombie supporters want 4 more years of this???? I think even Obama wants to be defeated in November. Obama wants out. Obama is tired of being way over his head without a clue how a free market economy functions.

[Rev BS]

To be fair, name calling happens all the time in this forum. It does not matter who started first. As long as you are having fun, it does not matter.

[Canitasguy]

Do you advocate a country run by women? Do you want to be governed by women?

Please explain.

JacksonYour comment raises the obvious question. Why do you remain in a country run by a woman?

Over the years your views on women and what their place is has been manifested over and over again.

It's a wonder how you have avoided to fate of Loretta Bobbit's hubby? Can we assume you sleep with one eye open when a chica stays over? If not, you probably should!

Or more likely at your age one quick pop and send her packin' is the rule?

[Jackson]

You asked if I wanted a country run by women?

That is not what was said.

Where did you pick that up from?

http://www.hermes-press.com/iceland_index.htmWhere did I pick it up from? Your post was in open admiration of the women in Iceland who "took down their entire government", "jailed politicians and government officials", "women inspired other women" and "took their country back".

It seems to me that you are admiring that the country of Iceland is now run by wonen after they "took their country back".

Here's what you posted:


It started because the "women" had enough and weren't going to take it anymore.

The women Started the "Pots and Pan Brigade."

They got together and banged pots and pans with metal spoons, etc. And made a enough noise loud enough that everyone in the government and everywhere else could hear it. They apparently stood outside government buildings and did this. Politicians were left cowering in their offices. After they took down their entire government, they jailed politicians and government officials.

Essentially they took their country back. The women inspired other women, then they inspired men.What do you think this says?

[WorldTravel69]

It did not say they were running the Country, just started the ball rolling.


Where did I pick it up from? Your post was in open admiration of the women in Iceland who "took down their entire government","jailed politicians and government officials","women Inspired other women" and "took their country back".

It seems to me that you are admiring that the country of Iceland is now run by women after they "took their country back".

Here's what you posted:

What do you think this says?

[WorldTravel69]

Here a little bit of information I'm sure you missed.

[Silver Star]

Here a little bit of information I'm sure you missed.Fine, but Barak Obama / Bush2 and Congress increased the debt to unsustainable levels. We need to balance the budget now, the only candidate for President saying that is Gary Johnson (Libertarian)

And by the way, we have Romney dead to rights on flip flops, just about every issue you can imagine, especially the individual mandate, tarp, gun control, abortion, on and on. Romney says whatever it takes to get elected and has no backbone.

www.garyjohnson2012.com

Fred

[WorldTravel69]

It's not just the Flip Flops, but his Lies.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/12/1082975/-EVERY-Romney-Lie-In-One-Place-UPDATED-


Fine, but Barak Obama / Bush2 and Congress increased the debt to unsustainable levels. We need to balance the budget now, the only candidate for President saying that is Gary Johnson (Libertarian)

And by the way, we have Romney dead to rights on flip flops, just about every issue you can imagine, especially the individual mandate, tarp, gun control, abortion, on and on. Romney says whatever it takes to get elected and has no backbone.

www.garyjohnson2012.com

Fred

[Silver Star]

It's not just the Flip Flops, but his Lies.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/12/1082975/-EVERY-Romney-Lie-In-One-Place-UPDATED-Wow! That list was a mile long! Thanks for posting that one. I can't see how those that consider themselves fiscal conservatives and pro gun rights backing Romney. There is an alternative, the

Libertarian Party.

Fred

[WorldTravel69]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ9w_g9BpPA

This what happening now.

The power brokers control your pay check.

If you make under 1 mil. You mean jack shit to Romney.

KEEP Watching the mis-leading Fox TV shows.

If you think I am Wrong call Romney and see he if calls you Back. Send him an email or tritter (?) him. Bietter yet send him a few hundred dollars and see what his reply will be?

We Want To Know?

You Dummies know his answers to you will be to fuck off.

Fuck off you poor small time employers, because you are not a part of Romney billionaires club. You want the jobs to go up, but will not support a new tax increase.

Ask him and his rich friends to invest in Building the jobs.

They are making billions.

When Obama took office the market was in 700s, now it is in the 1200s.

Obama requests a new job program and you say it is a tax or budget increases.

That does not make sense?

Where are the accountants?

Corporations are making billions and still the people suffer.

They are the ones that should be hiring, they are the rich employers, that have just made millions of dollars from cheap labor.

But they don't Help You or Us!

Stay tuned, more real facts to come.


Wow! That list was a mile long! Thanks for posting that one. I can't see how those that consider themselves fiscal conservatives and pro gun rights backing Romney. There is an alternative, the

Libertarian Party.

Fred

[Esten]

Here a little bit of information I'm sure you missed.Another good post WT.

Aside from the Stimulus (which was part-spending and part-tax breaks), I wondered, where was this massive increase in federal spending that Republicans kept claiming Obama had caused.

Not surprising, it's not entirely true.

Under Obama, federal spending has grown at the slowest rate in decades. In fact this was reported by a journalist affiliated with the Wall Street Journal, which has the same owner as Fox News. Good for him. As WT's chart shows, this is true even counting the Stimulus under Obama. The Republican counter-argument that spending is up as a % of GDP, is smoke and mirrors. That's largely due to the retraction in the economy, not just increased spending.

It's true Obama has kept spending at the higher levels where Bush left it. But growth beyond that has been minimal. It's an exageration and a distortion when Republicans say Obama has greatly increased spending. Especially when Romney says there has been a "spending inferno".

[Toymann]

Wow! That list was a mile long! Thanks for posting that one. I can't see how those that consider themselves fiscal conservatives and pro gun rights backing Romney. There is an alternative, the

Libertarian Party.

FredI always wondered about your IQ dude based on your goofy airport shuttle rates. Do you really think that WT69's link has any credibility what so ever? Wow! Have you read the crazy stuff WT69 puts on this thread. I guese at the end of the day "stupid follows stupid"! Suggest you look into the validity of this link using snopes, fact checker or whatever source checker you prefer. Just because the list of bullshit is long doesn't mean it's credible. Please read back in the thread and get a feel for where WT69 is coming from. WT69 was a long-hair turned union clown who stood at the airport calling returning Vietnam Vets baby killers and monsters. Any basic understanding of US history reveals that this behavior was one the worst moments in american history. To blame the troops for stupid government decisions was total idiocy that almost tore the country to pieces. WT69 is a total political idiot with a grade school education that thinks Iceland is some sort of world role model. Your comments clearly show me that you are not much different. Such a shame really, but at least you're out of the closet. LOL. Monger On Taxi Driver. Toymann

[Toymann]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ9w_g9BpPA

This what happening now.

The power brokers control your pay check.

If you make under 1 mil. You mean jack shit to Romney.

Stay tuned, more real facts to come.

Watch the mis-leading TV show Fox shows.

If you think I am Wrong call Romney and see he if calls you Back. Send him an email or tritter (?) him. Bietter yet send him a few hundred dollars and see what his repley will be?

We Want To Know?

You Dummies know his answers to you will be to fuck off.

Fuck off you poor small time employers, because you are not a part of Romney billionaires club. You want the jobs to go up, but will not support a new tax increase.

Ask him and his rich friends to invest in Building the jobs.

They are making billions.

Since O'Bama took office the market was in 700s, now it is the 1200s.

O'bama requests a new job program and you say it is a tax or budget increases.

That does make sense?

Where are the accountants?

Corporations are making billions and still the people suffer.

They are the ones to hire for new jobs, they are the rich employers, that have just made millions of dollars from cheap labor.

But they don't Help You or us!You have totally outdone yourself with this one dude. I thought the Iceland stuff was the low water mark! I stand corrected. For a guy that wanted this thread closed may I ask why you post this stuff NOW! I am assuming you are never coming back to BA again. It would be tough to show your face in public! LOL. Say Hi to nancy for me. Toymann

[El Alamo]

Obama claiming that he is the poster child for fiscal responsibility makes perfect sense to me. Of course, anybody believing this baloney would be required to have an IQ less than their shoe size. Oops, I forgot, that more or less describes the typical Obama supporter.

[El Alamo]

Wow! I knew there was some reason I liked Clinton. Even Bill cannot stomach Obama's criticims of Romney's business sucesses. Criticizing romney because of his successes is like criticizing Montana or Terry Bradshaw because they won every Super Bowl they were in.

But, then again, someone who has never had a real job and is clueless how an economy functions might think criticizing Montana or Terry Bradshaw for winning super bowls make sense. Of course, to buy into this birdbrain thinking you must be an Obama supporter i.e. a zombie from the origional night of the living dead movie.

[Silver Star]

I always wondered about your IQ dude based on your goofy airport shuttle rates. Do you really think that WT69's link has any credibility what so ever? Wow! Have you read the crazy stuff WT69 puts on this thread. I guese at the end of the day "stupid follows stupid"! Suggest you look into the validity of this link using snopes, fact checker or whatever source checker you prefer. Just because the list of bullshit is long doesn't mean it's credible. Please read back in the thread and get a feel for where WT69 is coming from. WT69 was a long-hair turned union clown who stood at the airport calling returning Vietnam Vets baby killers and monsters. Any basic understanding of US history reveals that this behavior was one the worst moments in american history. To blame the troops for stupid government decisions was total idiocy that almost tore the country to pieces. WT69 is a total political idiot with a grade school education that thinks Iceland is some sort of world role model. Your comments clearly show me that you are not much different. Such a shame really, but at least you're out of the closet. LOL. Monger On Taxi Driver. ToymannToyman, we have Romney dead to rights on at least 14 flip flops (dug up by McCain) he does not believe in small government at all and we have a better alternative to Obama than Romney, which is Gov Gary Johnson.

[Silver Star]

Wow! I knew there was some reason I liked Clinton. Even Bill cannot stomach Obama's criticims of Romney's business sucesses. Criticizing romney because of his successes is like criticizing Montana or Terry Bradshaw because they won every Super Bowl they were in.

But, then again, someone who has never had a real job and is clueless how an economy functions might think criticizing Montana or Terry Bradshaw for winning super bowls make sense. Of course, to buy into this birdbrain thinking you must be an Obama supporter I. E. A zombie from the origional night of the living dead movie.It is great that Romney was a business success, too bad as a politician he just tells whatever group he is talking to what they want to hear, and this is well documented. Gary Johnson is a successful businessman too, was reelected Gov in NM, and turned his state around. If you want free markets, balanced budgets, and smaller, less intrusive govt and more social freedoms, check out Gary Johnson and unlike Romney, didn't raise taxes. Romney will basically more of the same big government policies as Bush.

The mother of all of Romney's numerous flip flops is the individual mandate, this alone should tell us he is not for small government.

Fred

[El Alamo]

Silver star.

I agree. I am for ABO. Anybody but Obama

[Jackson]

Toyman, we have Romney dead to rights on at least 14 flip flops (dug up by McCain) he does not believe in small government at all and we have a better alternative to Obama than Romney, which is Gov Gary Johnson.Hi Silver Star,

I love this: Republicans flip-flop, but Democrats "evolve".

Anyway, I like Gary Johnson and I'd prefer to see him in the Presidency (or Mitch Daniels) , but he's not a viable candidate, period.


...too bad as a politician he just tells whatever group he is talking to what they want to hear.Thank god Obama never does anything like that.


The mother of all of Romney's numerous flip flops is the individual mandate, this alone should tell us he is not for small government.As it has been stated a dozen times on this website, Romney did what the people and the legislators of his state wanted, he signed the health care legislation that was approved in the MA legislature with 198 house reps supporting the bill and only 2 voting against it (99% voting in favor of the plan). The bill also passed through the state senate without a single dissenting vote.

I personally want a President who does what the people and the legislators of the country overwhelming tell him they want done, regardless of whether he personally is in favor of it or not.

Thanks,

Jackson

[WorldTravel69]

I need a bail out. Send me the money! And I'll be there.


You have totally outdone yourself with this one dude. I thought the Iceland stuff was the low water mark! I stand corrected. For a guy that wanted this thread closed may I ask why you post this stuff NOW! I am assuming you are never coming back to BA again. It would be tough to show your face in public! LOL. Say Hi to nancy for me. Toymann

[El Alamo]

I think the American people feel a lot like Casey Stengal after the 7th game of the world series when he accidentally pencilled Pee Wee Herman into the starting lineup instead of Mickey Mantle.

Well, guess what, we accidentally pencilled in Pee Wee Herman to be president and we are paying the price

[Gato Hunter]

I can not believe that a bunch of guys that read and talk about fucking and eating pussy, or worse almost every day would even think about voting for a fucking Mormon!

Have any of you ever been to Utah? Weak beer, no pussy, can't buy a double in a bar, need a membership to even get into a bar, not to mention the cult like Mormons.

Whats next? Asking Tom Cruise to be VP so we get all of the Scientology asshats on board also?

[Silver Star]

Hi Silver Star,

I love this: Republicans flip-flop, but Democrats "evolve".

Anyway, I like Gary Johnson and I'd prefer to see him in the Presidency (or Mitch Daniels) , but he's not a viable candidate, period.

Thank god Obama never does anything like that.

As it has been stated a dozen times on this website, Romney did what the people and the legislators of his state wanted, he signed the health care legislation that was approved in the MA legislature with 198 house reps supporting the bill and only 2 voting against it (99% voting in favor of the plan). The bill also passed through the state senate without a single dissenting vote.

I personally want a President who does what the people and the legislators of the country overwhelming tell him they want done, regardless of whether he personally is in favor of it or not.

Thanks,

JacksonHi Jax.

I am glad you realize that Gary Johnson is better than Obama and Mitt Romney. Voting for the lesser of 2 evils is still evil.

As far as a president doing what the majority wants, I can tell you that democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Romney has been on both sides of just about every issue, it is beyond belief.

Democrats and Republicans have put us in this mess together, it is time for something new, Libertarian.

If we get Romney the transition will be so smooth, we won't even notice!

Fred

[Silver Star]

I think the American people feel a lot like Casey Stengal after the 7th game of the world series when he accidentally pencilled Pee Wee Herman into the starting lineup instead of Mickey Mantle.

Well, guess what, we accidentally pencilled in Pee Wee Herman to be president and we are paying the priceAnd who has the opposition penciled in Romney. Mr Establishment and waffler extrodinare. Flop Flop City

Here's another Romney mini flip, he flipped on releasing his own tax returns 1st no, then yes. We should send him a spatula for his flipping prowess. More Romney Flip Flops to come (I can understand evolving on a few items in your life, but MR has flipped on everything!) Just panders to his current audience Massachusettes is one Audience, Republican National Primary another.

[El Alamo]

At least romney released his tax information, even though he didn't have to. Of course, Obama could release his tax information but who is interested in tax returns that only report income from welfare checks.

Maybe Obama should release his college transcripts, something no other president has had a problem doing.

And just for good measure Obama could release his birth certificate from Kenya / Indonesia.

[Rev BS]

At least romney released his tax information, even though he didn't have to. Of course, Obama could release his tax information but who is interested in tax returns that only report income from welfare checks.

Maybe Obama should release his college transcripts, something no other president has had a problem doing.

And just for good measure Obama could release his birth certificate from Kenya / Indonesia.I have to give you credit, your press releases are just as good as Saddam Hussein"s press officer when he continually boasts of the Iraqi's army great successes against the invading Americans.

[Esten]

El Alamo is not working for anyone, however, he is auditioning for Dennis Miller's spot on Fox News.

[Esten]

So exactly what experience does "teach one how to build a strong economy"?

A few years as a college law professor?

Lifetime employment as a government bureaucrat?

A professional career as a liberal politician?Nope, none of them. The best experience or training is probably a broad-based education in economics. One can acquire this knowledge without becoming an economist.

Today I listened to another speech by Romney touting his business experience. He said that the economy is simply the collection of all the businesses in the country. However some people would argue that the economy is more complex than this, that it includes both businesses and consumers. Buyers and sellers.

Jackson, do you agree with Romney's description of the economy?

[Member #4112]

While I generally don't like to post long quotes on the site, this is one which clearly defines Liberal and Conservative. Makes me pround to be an Aggie! Enjoy.


Texas A&M Commencement Address. The students gave a standing ovation; the faculty were deathly silent!

Neal Boortz is a Texan, a lawyer, a Texas Aggie (Texas A&M) graduate, and now a nationally syndicated talk show host from Atlanta. His commencement address to the graduates of a recent Texas A&M class is far different from what either the students or the faculty expected. Whether you agree or disagree, his views are certainly thought provoking.

"I am honored by the invitation to address you on this august occasion. It's about time. Be warned, however, that I am not here to impress you; you'll have enough smoke blown up your bloomers today. And you can bet your tassels I'm not here to impress the faculty and administration. You may not like much of what I have to say, and that's fine. You will remember it though. Especially after about 10 years out there in the real world. This, it goes without saying, does not apply to those of you who will seek your careers and your fortunes as government employees.

This gowned gaggle behind me is your faculty. You've heard the old saying that those who can. Do. Those who can't. Teach. That sounds deliciously insensitive. But there is often raw truth in insensitivity, just as you often find feel-good falsehoods and lies in compassion. Say good-bye to your faculty because now you are getting ready to go out there and do. These folks behind me are going to stay right here and teach.

By the way, just because you are leaving this place with a diploma doesn't mean the learning is over. When an FAA flight examiner handed me my private pilot's license many years ago, he said, 'Here, this is your ticket to learn. ' The same can be said for your diploma. Believe me, the learning has just begun.

Now, I realize that most of you consider yourselves Liberals. In fact, you are probably very proud of your liberal views. You care so much. You feel so much. You want to help so much. After all, you're a compassionate and caring person, aren't you now? Well, isn't that just so extraordinarily special. Now, at this age, is as good a time as any to be a liberal; as good a time as any to know absolutely everything. You have plenty of time, starting tomorrow, for the truth to set in.

Over the next few years, as you begin to feel the cold breath of reality down your neck, things are going to start changing pretty fast. Including your own assessment of just how much you really know.

So here are the first assignments for your initial class in reality: Pay attention to the news, read newspapers, and listen to the words and phrases that proud Liberals use to promote their causes. Then, compare the words of the left to the words and phrases you hear from those evil, heartless, greedy conservatives. From the Left you will hear "I feel." From the Right you will hear "I think." From the Liberals you will hear references to groups. The Blacks, the Poor, the Rich, the Disadvantaged, the Less Fortunate. From the Right you will hear references to individuals. On the Left you hear talk of group rights; on the Right, individual rights.

That about sums it up, really: Liberals feel. Liberals care. They are pack animals whose identity is tied up in group dynamics. Conservatives think. And, setting aside the theocracy crowd, their identity is centered on the individual.

Liberals feel that their favored groups have enforceable rights to the property and services of productive individuals. Conservatives, I among them I might add, think that individuals have the right to protect their lives and their property from the plunder of the masses.

In college you developed a group mentality, but if you look closely at your diplomas you will see that they have your individual names on them. Not the name of your school mascot, or of your fraternity or sorority, but your name. Your group identity is going away. Your recognition and appreciation of your individual identity starts now.

If, by the time you reach the age of 30, you do not consider yourself to be a conservative, rush right back here as quickly as you can and apply for a faculty position. These people will welcome you with open arms. They will welcome you, that is, so long as you haven't developed an individual identity. Once again you will have to be willing to sign on to the group mentality you embraced during the past four years.

Something is going to happen soon that is going to really open your eyes. You're going to actually get a full time job!

You're also going to get a lifelong work partner. This partner isn't going to help you do your job. This partner is just going to sit back and wait for payday. This partner doesn't want to share in your effort, but in your earnings.

Your new lifelong partner is actually an agent; an agent representing a strange and diverse group of people; an agent for every teenager with an illegitimate child; an agent for a research scientist who wanted to make some cash answering the age-old question of why monkeys grind their teeth. An agent for some poor demented hippie who considers herself to be a meaningful and talented artist, but who just can't manage to sell any of her artwork on the open market.

Your new partner is an agent for every person with limited, if any, job skills, but who wanted a job at City Hall. An agent for tin-horn dictators in fancy military uniforms grasping for American foreign aid. An agent for multi-million dollar companies who want someone else to pay for their overseas advertising. An agent for everybody who wants to use the unimaginable power of this agent's for their personal enrichment and benefit.

That agent is our wonderful, caring, compassionate, oppressive government. Believe me, you will be awed by the unimaginable power this agent has. Power that you do not have. A power that no individual has, or will have. This agent has the legal power to use force, deadly force to accomplish its goals.

You have no choice here. Your new friend is just going to walk up to you, introduce itself rather gruffly, hand you a few forms to fill out, and move right on in. Say Hello, to your own personal one ton gorilla. It will sleep anywhere it wants to.

Now, let me tell you, this agent is not cheap. As you become successful it will seize about 40% of everything you earn. And no, I'm sorry, there just isn't any way you can fire this agent of plunder, and you can't decrease its share of your income. That power rests with him, not you.

So, here I am saying negative things to you about government. Well, be clear on this: It is not wrong to distrust government. It is not wrong to fear government. In certain cases it is not even wrong to despise government for government is inherently evil. Yes, a necessary evil, but dangerous nonetheless, somewhat like a drug. Just as a drug that in the proper dosage can save your life, an overdose of government can be fatal.

Now let's address a few things that have been crammed into your minds at this university. There are some ideas you need to expunge as soon as possible. These ideas may work well in academic environment, but they fail miserably out there in the real world.

First is that favorite buzz word of the media and academia: Diversity! You have been taught that the real value of any group of people. Be it a social group, an employee group, a management group, whatever. Is based on diversity. This is a favored liberal ideal because diversity is based not on an individuals abilities or character, but on a person's identity and status as a member of a group. Yes, it's that liberal group identity thing again.

Within the great diversity movement group identification. Be it racial, gender based, or some other minority status. Means more than the individuals integrity, character or other qualifications.

Brace yourself. You are about to move from this academic atmosphere where diversity rules, to a workplace and a culture where individual achievement and excellence actually count. No matter what your professors have taught you over the last four years, you are about to learn that diversity is absolutely no replacement for excellence, ability, and individual hard work. From this day on every single time you hear the word "diversity" you can rest assured that there is someone close by who is determined to rob you of every vestige of individuality you possess.

We also need to address this thing you seem to have about "rights." We have witnessed an obscene explosion of so-called "rights" in the last few decades, usually emanating from college campuses.

You know the mantra: You have the right to a job. The right to a place to live. The right to a living wage. The right to health care. The right to an education. You probably even have your own pet right. The right to a Beemer for instance, or the right to have someone else provide for that child you plan on downloading in a year or so.

Forget it. Forget those rights! I'll tell you what your rights are. You have a right to live free, and to the results of 60%.75% of your labor. I'll also tell you have no right to any portion of the life or labor of another.

You may, for instance, think that you have a right to health care. After all, President Obama said so, didn't he? But you cannot receive health-care unless some doctor or health practitioner surrenders some of his time. His life. To you. He may be willing to do this for compensation, but that's his choice. You have no "right" to his time or property. You have no right to his or any other person's life or to any portion thereof.

You may also think you have some "right" to a job; a job with a living wage, whatever that is. Do you mean to tell me that you have a right to force your services on another person, and then the right to demand that this person compensate you with their money? Sorry, forget it. I am sure you would scream if some urban outdoors men (that would be "homeless person" for those of you who don't want to give these less fortunate people a romantic and adventurous title) came to you and demanded his job and your money.

The people who have been telling you about all the rights you have are simply exercising one of theirs. The right to be imbeciles. Their being imbeciles didn't cost anyone else either property or time. It's their right, and they exercise it brilliantly.

By the way, did you catch my use of the phrase "less fortunate" a bit ago when I was talking about the urban outdoors men? That phrase is a favorite of the Left. Think about it, and you'll understand why.

To imply that one person is homeless, destitute, dirty, drunk, spaced out on drugs, unemployable, and generally miserable because he is "less fortunate" is to imply that a successful person. One with a job, a home and a future. Is in that position because he or she was "fortunate." The dictionary says that fortunate means "having derived good from an unexpected place." There is nothing unexpected about deriving good from hard work. There is also nothing unexpected about deriving misery from choosing drugs, alcohol, and the street.

If the Liberal Left can create the common perception that success and failure are simple matters of "fortune" or "luck," then it is easy to promote and justify their various income redistribution schemes. After all, we are just evening out the odds a little bit. This "success equals luck" idea the liberals like to push is seen everywhere. Former Democratic presidential candidate Richard Gephardt refers to high-achievers as "people who have won life's lottery." He wants you to believe they are making the big bucks because they are lucky. It's not luck, my friends. It's choice. One of the greatest lessons I ever learned was in a book by Og Mandino, entitled,"The Greatest Secret in the World." The lesson? Very simple: "Use wisely your power of choice."

That bum sitting on a heating grate, smelling like a wharf rat? He's there by choice. He is there because of the sum total of the choices he has made in his life. This truism is absolutely the hardest thing for some people to accept, especially those who consider themselves to be victims of something or other. Victims of discrimination, bad luck, the system, capitalism, whatever. After all, nobody really wants to accept the blame for his or her position in life. Not when it is so much easier to point and say,"Look! He did this to me!" than it is to look into a mirror and say,"You S. O. B! You did this to me!"

The key to accepting responsibility for your life is to accept the fact that your choices, every one of them, are leading you inexorably to either success or failure, however you define those terms.

Some of the choices are obvious: Whether or not to stay in school. Whether or not to get pregnant. Whether or not to hit the bottle. Whether or not to keep this job you hate until you get another better-paying job. Whether or not to save some of your money, or saddle yourself with huge payments for that new car.

Some of the choices are seemingly insignificant: Whom to go to the movies with. Whose car to ride home in. Whether to watch the tube tonight, or read a book on investing. But, and you can be sure of this, each choice counts. Each choice is a building block. Some large, some small. But each one is a part of the structure of your life. If you make the right choices, or if you make more right choices than wrong ones, something absolutely terrible may happen to you. Something unthinkable. You, my friend, could become one of the hated, the evil, the ugly, the feared, the filthy, the successful, the rich.

The rich basically serve two purposes in this country. First, they provide the investments, the investment capital, and the brains for the formation of new businesses. Businesses that hire people. Businesses that send millions of paychecks home each week to the un-rich.

Second, the rich are a wonderful object of ridicule, distrust, and hatred. Few things are more valuable to a politician than the envy most Americans feel for the evil rich.

Envy is a powerful emotion. Even more powerful than the emotional minefield that surrounded Bill Clinton when he reviewed his last batch of White House interns. Politicians use envy to get votes and power. And they keep that power by promising the envious that the envied will be punished: "The rich will pay their fair share of taxes if I have anything to do with it." The truth is that the top 10% of income earners in this country pays almost 50% of all income taxes collected. I shudder to think what these job producers would be paying if our tax system were any more "fair."

You have heard, no doubt, that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Interestingly enough, our government's own numbers show that many of the poor actually get richer, and that quite a few of the rich actually get poorer. But for the rich who do actually get richer, and the poor who remain poor. There's an explanation. A reason. The rich, you see, keep doing the things that make them rich; while the poor keep doing the things that make them poor.

Speaking of the poor, during your adult life you are going to hear an endless string of politicians bemoaning the plight of the poor. So, you need to know that under our government's definition of "poor" you can have a $5 million net worth, a $300, 000 home and a new $90, 000 Mercedes, all completely paid for. You can also have a maid, cook, and valet, and a million in your checking account, and you can still be officially defined by our government as "living in poverty." Now there's something you haven't seen on the evening news.

How does the government pull this one off? Very simple, really. To determine whether or not some poor soul is "living in poverty," the government measures one thing. Just one thing. Income.

It doesn't matter one bit how much you have, how much you own, how many cars you drive or how big they are, whether or not your pool is heated, whether you winter in Aspen and spend the summers in the Bahamas, or how much is in your savings account. It only matters how much income you claim in that particular year. This means that if you take a one-year leave of absence from your high-paying job and decide to live off the money in your savings and checking accounts while you write the next great American novel, the government says you are living in poverty."

This isn't exactly what you had in mind when you heard these gloomy statistics, is it? Do you need more convincing? Try this. The government's own statistics show that people who are said to be "living in poverty" spend more than $1. 50 for each dollar of income they claim. Something is a bit fishy here. Just remember all this the next time Charles Gibson tells you about some hideous new poverty statistics.

Why has the government concocted this phony poverty scam? Because the government needs an excuse to grow and to expand its social welfare programs, which translates into an expansion of its power. If the government can convince you, in all your compassion, that the number of "poor" is increasing, it will have all the excuse it needs to sway an electorate suffering from the advanced stages of Obsessive-Compulsive Compassion Disorder.

I'm about to be stoned by the faculty here. They've already changed their minds about that honorary degree I was going to get. That's OK, though. I still have my PhD. In Insensitivity from the Neal Boortz Institute for Insensitivity Training. I learned that, in short, sensitivity sucks. It's a trap. Think about it. The truth knows no sensitivity. Life can be insensitive. Wallow too much in sensitivity and you'll be unable to deal with life, or the truth, so get over it.

Now, before the dean has me shackled and hauled off, I have a few random thoughts.

* You need to register to vote, unless you are on welfare. If you are living off the efforts of others, please do us the favor of sitting down and shutting up until you are on your own again.

* When you do vote, your votes for the House and the Senate are more important than your vote for President. The House controls the purse strings, so concentrate your awareness there.

* Liars cannot be trusted, even when the liar is the President of the country. If someone can't deal honestly with you, send them packing.

* Don't bow to the temptation to use the government as an instrument of plunder. If it is wrong for you to take money from someone else who earned it. To take their money by force for your own needs. Then it is certainly just as wrong for you to demand that the government step forward and do this dirty work for you.

* Don't look in other people's pockets. You have no business there. What they earn is theirs. What you earn is yours. Keep it that way. Nobody owes you anything, except to respect your privacy and your rights, and leave you the hell alone.

* Speaking of earning, the revered 40-hour workweek is for losers. Forty hours should be considered the minimum, not the maximum. You don't see highly successful people clocking out of the office every afternoon at five. The losers are the ones caught up in that afternoon rush hour. The winners drive home in the dark.

* Free speech is meant to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech, by definition, needs no protection.

* Finally (and aren't you glad to hear that word) , as Og Mandino wrote,

1. Proclaim your rarity. Each of you is a rare and unique human being.

2. Use wisely your power of choice.

3. Go the extra mile, drive home in the dark.

Oh, and put off buying a television set as long as you can. Now, if you have any idea at all what's good for you, you will get out of here and never come back. Class dismissed"

[Rocky2]

While I generally don't like to post long quotes on the site, this is one which clearly defines Liberal and Conservative. Makes me pround to be an Aggie! Enjoy.What he said.

[Silver Star]

What he said.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D61tYkQ2cEM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Click on link for another Romney Flip Flop Whopper, this one is on campaign finance, he says one thing while running in MASS, then another when running in front of another group.

If you have any questions on what Romney stands for the answer is. Whatever it takes to get elected.

Many many more Romney flip flops to come, if you want a real fiscally conservative and pro civil liberty President you need to take a look at Libertarian Gary Johnson. Great track record in NM too!

Romney = Flip Flopper / Gary Johnson (Libertarian) = principled and consistent

[Esten]

While I generally don't like to post long quotes on the site, this is one which clearly defines Liberal and Conservative. Makes me pround to be an Aggie! Enjoy.Looks like Texas college graduates are easily fooled by urban legends.

Not again Doppel!

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/boortz.asp

[Toymann]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D61tYkQ2cEM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Click on link for another Romney Flip Flop Whopper, this one is on campaign finance, he says one thing while running in MASS, then another when running in front of another group.

If you have any questions on what Romney stands for the answer is. Whatever it takes to get elected.

Many many more Romney flip flops to come, if you want a real fiscally conservative and pro civil liberty President you need to take a look at Libertarian Gary Johnson. Great track record in NM too!

Romney = Flip Flopper / Gary Johnson (Libertarian) = principled and consistentThe last time I checked Gary Johnson wasn't running for president Fred. So your point is? Furthermore, who gives a sweet rats ass about who's more conservative than who. Romney was an extremely sucessful businessman at Bain TWICE leading the company to the top. He did a good job running Mass, and a great job rescuing the Olympics (for which he recieved no compensation I might add). Are you starting to GET IT yet Fred. Romney's a closer that knows how to get the job done when handed a shitty deal. THATS HIS TRACK RECORD at the end of the day. The country is currently a mess! Are you getting it yet Fred. It's not about the silly who's more conservative than who or more principled than who arguement. It's time for a guy that can get the job done! PERIOD! I'm guessing we won't get a second chance at this dude, so better get it right this time. You are caught in a time warp from the past Fred, suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. Now that said, I checked out your flip flop spam. What a joke! IALOTFLMAO! It's nothing more than a collection of distortions and mis-quotes for the weak minded. You need to do a bit of fact checking before you post your next liberal spam site Fred. You claim to be a libertarian Fred, but strangley you're in love with wild-ass liberal websites pursuing Obamanation's agenda. Hmmmmmm. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck. What is it Fred. Monger on Taxi Driver. Toymann

[Rocky2]

Looks like Texas college graduates are easily fooled by urban legends.

Not again Doppel!

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/boortz.aspSo what. The content stands.

[Silver Star]

The last time I checked Gary Johnson wasn't running for president Fred. So your point is? Furthermore, who gives a sweet rats ass about who's more conservative than who. Romney was an extremely sucessful businessman at Bain TWICE leading the company to the top. He did a good job running Mass, and a great job rescuing the Olympics (for which he recieved no compensation I might add). Are you starting to GET IT yet Fred. Romney's a closer that knows how to get the job done when handed a shitty deal. THATS HIS TRACK RECORD at the end of the day. The country is currently a mess! Are you getting it yet Fred. It's not about the silly who's more conservative than who or more principled than who arguement. It's time for a guy that can get the job done! PERIOD! I'm guessing we won't get a second chance at this dude, so better get it right this time. You are caught in a time warp from the past Fred, suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. Now that said, I checked out your flip flop spam. What a joke! IALOTFLMAO! It's nothing more than a collection of distortions and mis-quotes for the weak minded. You need to do a bit of fact checking before you post your next liberal spam site Fred. You claim to be a libertarian Fred, but strangley you're in love with wild-ass liberal websites pursuing Obamanation's agenda. Hmmmmmm. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck. What is it Fred. Monger on Taxi Driver. ToymannLast I checked Gary Johnson is running for President! www.garyjohnson2012.com Will be on ballot in close to or all 50 States. The facts are clear, Romney has been on both sides of every issue, he says he is for campaign finance and pacs, then does the exact opposite. He couldn't even run for reelection in MA, unlike GJ who was reelected in NM with a wider margin than being elected. Beware, Romney supported some form of TARP (just like Obama) and his biggest contributors are the big banks.

Romney raised taxes many times in MA, gary Johnson cut Taxes 14 times and left the state with a surplus!

And the flip flops we have come from John McCain, who dug up so many good ones in 2008. Mitt Romney-The essence of a spineless, pure politician. If you think Romney is a real conservative, please watch his campaign videos from 94 when he ran against Kennedy. The country is a mess because we have had Democrats and Republicans running it for so long, it is time for real change, Libertarians. Mitt Romney won't submit a balanced budget, Gary Johnson will. Mitt Romney? On both sides of every issue!

Romney Flip Flopped Big Time on healthcare and the individual mandate, abortion, releasing his tax returns, climate change, campaign finance, on and on and on. I'm glad that Romney did a great job at Bain and the Olympics, but we can do better with Gary Johnson. Bush and Obama together have doubled the debt, so both parties should be fired and replaced with Libertarians. Do you really think we are going to get smaller, less intrusive government with Romney? I don't think so!

Fred

[Silver Star]

Last I checked Gary Johnson is running for President!

www.garyjohnson2012.com

Will be on ballot in close to or all 50 States. The facts are clear, Romney has been on both sides of every issue, he says he is for campaign finance and pacs, then does the exact opposite. He couldn't even run for reelection in MA, unlike GJ who was reelected in NM with a wider margin than being elected. Beware, Romney supported some form of TARP (just like Obama) and his biggest contributors are the big banks.

Romney raised taxes many times in MA, gary Johnson cut Taxes 14 times and left the state with a surplus!

And the flip flops we have come from John McCain, who dug up so many good ones in 2008. Mitt Romney-The essence of a spineless, pure politician. If you think Romney is a real conservative, please watch his campaign videos from 94 when he ran against Kennedy. The country is a mess because we have had Democrats and Republicans running it for so long, it is time for real change, Libertarians. Mitt Romney won't submit a balanced budget, Gary Johnson will. Mitt Romney? On both sides of every issue!

Romney Flip Flopped Big Time on healthcare and the individual mandate, abortion, releasing his tax returns, climate change, campaign finance, on and on and on. I'm glad that Romney did a great job at Bain and the Olympics, but we can do better with Gary Johnson. Bush and Obama together have doubled the debt, so both parties should be fired and replaced with Libertarians. Do you really think we are going to get smaller, less intrusive government with Romney? I don't think so!

Fredhttp://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/may/18/politifacts-guide-mitt-romneys-flip-flops/

Above is an award winning non partisan look at Romney's flip flops, sad thing is that on many of his consistent positions, he is wrong, like supporting TARP.

Mitt Romney=Fake Conservative (Country Club Crony Capitalist)

[Punter 127]

A vote for Gary Johnson (in a swing state) is the same as a vote for Obummer, end of story.

[Member #4112]

Esten, only liberals are easily amused.

It is a great definition and contrast regarding Liberals and Conservatives. Perhaps it hits to close to home for you, so it's back to name calling and ridiculing those who disagree with your 'world view'.

All hail Esten the magnificent, we poor humble rabble of humanity who know no better and must be shown the light. Typical liberal clap trap about suborning the individual for the good of the masses, the last thing any liberal wants is for people to think for themselves. Liberals are only happy when they control YOUR wallet.

Watch Wisconsin today. After all the money the Democrats and Unions have poured into the state to recall then defeat Walker he will win with a greater margin of victory than his original election. People are tired of the B / S and want results. Walker delivered and his policies are working.

November is coming and Obama is looking more desperate every day. Now Sara Jessica Parker has to go on TV to advertise a party at her house for the Anointed One and guess what she will even raffle off a seat at the table of the Ruling Elite to one of the unwashed rabble. How nice.

Esten, your boy looks weaker every day. World leaders tell him to stuff it, Iran laughs in his face regarding the nukes, the economy is tanking again and unemployment is going up again. I know, it's all George Bush's fault.

[Member #4112]

Silver Star, Gary Johnson may have some good ideas but no one from his party or any other third party will be elected to the presidency in our lifetime.

Third parties only serve as spoilers and foils for the other two parties, remember Ross?

Do you really want someone in the presidency who both parties hate and have no reason to work with, take a look at Jessie Ventura's term in office. What a mess.

Do you really want the type of disarray we see in Europe with multiple parties? You think two is bad try four or more for not getting anything done. Take a real hard look at Greece, after the new election on June 17 nothing will get done because there will be no coalition government again. Greece defaults on its sovereign debt, Europe goes in a tail spin and we follow to a lesser extent.

[El Alamo]

Another spoiler would be Ralph Nader, bless his little heart. We might be referring to Al Gore as President Al Gore instead of Fatso Al Gore had Nader not collected enough votes to give the presidency to Bush.

I don't think fringe parties are going to have much impact in this years election because I don't think this election will be that close. At some level I think a lot of voters have disgarded the idea that Obama is a brillant intellect who operates a higher level than most of us. Obama appears to be a shallow intellect and if he would release his college transcripts filled with failing grades, dropping out of classes and being put on probation for lack of academic achievement this would be obvious. If I had a cumulative GPA of 1.55 I would not want to release my transcripts either.

[Silver Star]

Silver Star, Gary Johnson may have some good ideas but no one from his party or any other third party will be elected to the presidency in our lifetime.

Third parties only serve as spoilers and foils for the other two parties, remember Ross?

Do you really want someone in the presidency who both parties hate and have no reason to work with, take a look at Jessie Ventura's term in office. What a mess.

Do you really want the type of disarray we see in Europe with multiple parties? You think two is bad try four or more for not getting anything done. Take a real hard look at Greece, after the new election on June 17 nothing will get done because there will be no coalition government again. Greece defaults on its sovereign debt, Europe goes in a tail spin and we follow to a lesser extent.I just want Libertarian ideals in action, balanced budgets, civil liberties, end of the welfare state, no more unneeded foreign wars, free markets, and an end to the failed war on drugs. We will have a Greece situation soon with Democrats and Republicans who take us for granted. Bush / Obama have doubled the debt, increased welfare, and have reduced civil liberties, and started unneeded foreign wars.

Isn't is time for something new? With Obama / Romney we are basically going to have more of the same big government programs and control, with some window dressing to make it look like there is a real choice. And many voters this cycle are looking for something new, and are not happy with the 2 choices. Gary Johnson is that perfect alternative, and is not a kook like Perot. He has actually served and did an awesome job in NM. It is time to break the cycle of the 2 party political abuse system that is going on and have given us the mess we are in.

[Silver Star]

Silver Star, Gary Johnson may have some good ideas but no one from his party or any other third party will be elected to the presidency in our lifetime.

Third parties only serve as spoilers and foils for the other two parties, remember Ross?

Do you really want someone in the presidency who both parties hate and have no reason to work with, take a look at Jessie Ventura's term in office. What a mess.

Do you really want the type of disarray we see in Europe with multiple parties? You think two is bad try four or more for not getting anything done. Take a real hard look at Greece, after the new election on June 17 nothing will get done because there will be no coalition government again. Greece defaults on its sovereign debt, Europe goes in a tail spin and we follow to a lesser extent.It is not multiple parties that is taking Europe down, it is socialism.

Fred

[Member #4112]

Bravo for standing up for what you think is the right course, but you can do it till the cows come home and it just aint happen.

I'm not arguing with many of the Libertarian ideas, I agree with many of them but not all. I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation. Because you want it to be so does not make it possible.

I would argue it is both multiple parties and the European style of socialism, which Obama admires, that have them in this pickle.

[Silver Star]

Bravo for standing up for what you think is the right course, but you can do it till the cows come home and it just aint happen.

I'm not arguing with many of the Libertarian ideas, I agree with many of them but not all. I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation. Because you want it to be so does not make it possible.

I would argue it is both multiple parties and the European style of socialism, which Obama admires, that have them in this pickle.The sad thing is with Romney he is socialist too like Obama. (ex RomneyCare, Pro Gun Control and tax increases in Mass and pro TARP)

It's crazy because everyone I talk to that wants an alternative to Obama admits that Gary Johnson and Libertarians are better, but are not viable, so they are going to vote for what they perceive as less evil, but still evil.

I don't think we can afford to have another big government Republican in the White House again, Bush 2 gave us Medicare Part D (socialist) with no way to pay for it.

I'm wondering how happy real conservatives are with Romney when they look at his record as Gov, and his 94 campaign for Senate vs T Kennedy.

Isn't is clear that Romney is just another country club RINO Republican?

And yes, I have uncovered a lot of Obama flip flops too, like GITMO for starters.

[El Alamo]

I think it is time for esteemed comrade Esten to get on the winning side and join the Romney socialist bandwagon.

[Silver Star]

I think it is time for comrade Esten to get on the winning side and join the Romney socialist bandwagon.We all lose with Romney bandwagon. 4 more years of basically the same Bush / Obama big government, tax and spend policies.

[Esten]

Don't forget about the terrible "Socialist" economy of Germany.

[Esten]

There was no name-calling Doppel, only ridicule that you bring upon yourself by the endless stream of false information you post. It stretches the imagination that a graduating college class would give a standing ovation to a talk radio host who had just insulted their faculty and called government "evil". LOL. Some people just believe what they want to, whether true or not.

I also noticed a bunch of lies about liberals in that fake speech. That's a pattern among conservatives, to lie about liberals. Just a few I've heard in the past 24 hours:

Fake commencement speech lie (June 4) : "Liberals feel that their favored groups have enforceable rights to the property and services of productive individuals."

Doppel lie (June 5) : "The last thing any liberal wants is for people to think for themselves. Liberals are only happy when they control YOUR wallet."

Bill O'Reilly lie (June 5) : "Liberals want the government to supply almost unlimited funds to the folks. Conservatives want fiscal responsibility, in order to stabilize the economy and promote self-reliance. That's what it's all about."

What does it say about an ideology, that depends so much on mis-representing it's competing ideology?

I went looking for a definition of "liberal", not so easy to find. The following quote from JFK seemed appropriate (though perhaps not complete) :


If by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people — their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties — someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

- John F. Kennedy, September 14, 1960

[WorldTravel69]

In Reality, yes they are upholding up the World Economy.


Don't forget about the terrible "Socialist" economy of Germany.

[Member #4112]

Esten, I hope you are not trying to compare Kennedy from 1960 to day's Democrats, because if you that is where you are going then Kennedy would be called a Republican by today's Democrat standards.

While Germany may be slanted to the socialist side of the scale, that did not stop them from instituting sound economic policies of cutting back on spending, going the austerity route early and getting their economy going again while scorning Obama's stimulus ideas.

You just can not stand to be called out when it comes to what liberals are. The post makes a clear and IMHO fair definition of liberal value systems and conservative value systems. So what is your problem here or are you ashamed of what liberals stand for?

By the way my prediction came to pass. Walker won by a larger margin in the recall than in his original election in 2010. After all the demonstrations and money poured in by the DNC and the unions they lost. Government sector unions are about to start having to live with the same reality as everyone else.

We don't have to wait for the financial implosion Greece is experiencing to see the riots by those demanding more when the bank is broke; we have it now with the 'Occupy' folks and the Unions in Wisconsin demanding ther "rights".

I have to agree that the Republicans were wrong when they originally called Obama a 'typical tax and send Democrat', no Obama is a Tax, Borrow More and Spend Democrat who is putting this country in the poor house with unsustainable borrowing.

[Member #4112]

While Wisconsin was a slap in the face for Obama and Democrats in general, the last several weeks have served up nothing but disappointment for the Anoited One, who is "too big to fail", from unemployment numbers, which now seem to be being manipulated for political purposes – you queue to start arguing Esten, to a bad market and stalled recovery.

I just can not wait for the Supreme Court to slap him down again at the end of June when the ObamaCare and the Arizona immigration decisions are announced. You know it's coming since he jumped on the Supreme Court right after one of his little bird appointees, probably Kagan, told him he had lost.

It looks as if Holder is about to cause Obama still more headaches with the Fast and Furious debacle coming to a head with the new wire tap transcripts turning up from an unnamed source in the Justice Department. The folks over there at Justice are smelling blood in the water and are snitching off Holder left and right.

[Silver Star]

[QUOTE=Doppelganger; 422993]Silver Star, Gary Johnson may have some good ideas but no one from his party or any other third party will be elected to the presidency in our lifetime.

Third parties only serve as spoilers and foils for the other two parties, remember Ross?

Do you really want someone in the presidency who both parties hate and have no reason to work with, take a look at Jessie Ventura's term in office. What a mess.

Concerning the above, Gary Johnson is way better than Ventura, and Gary Johnson has an awesome track record as Governor, please check it out, and he is liked by both Democrats and Republicans, he was reelected by a wider margin than his initial election. I am sure if you are a fiscal conservative, but want civil liberties too, you will see that Gary Johnson is the best choice this cycle.

It doesn't make sense to keep electing the same parties to fix the problems they created themselves. And the big myth is that under Republicans, government gets smaller, the reality is under Republicans Government only gets bigger (no child left behind and.

Medicare Part D for Starters)

[Member #4112]

I don't disagree with you that Johnson maybe the best candidate, but it does not alter the fact a 3rd party candidate is unelectable in this race.

[Silver Star]

I don't disagree with you that Johnson maybe the best candidate, but it does not alter the fact a 3rd party candidate is unelectable in this race.Would you vote for GJ if he had critical mass, last poll I saw he was at 6%, many Americans, have said they want something new this cycle. Most of the like minded people I talk to agree that GJ is the best choice, but they say they don't want to waste their vote. I would say you are wasting your vote by voting for the same parties over and over again that have created the problem in the 1st place, and expect them to fix it.


Barak Obama was adamantly against debt limit increases while Senator, then raised the debt several times while President.

Hopefully America will realize there really isn't much of a difference between Bush / Romney / Obama and step outside the box and send a clear message that we want (and most Americans do) a balanced budget now by voting Libertarian.

www.garyjohnson2012.com

[El Alamo]

I sort of agree with Silver Star that it might not make much difference who is elected President provided you are not concerned about runaway debt, spending trillions on birdbrain business ventures, having a stagnant economy and inciting class and racial demagoguery.

Obama is to politics what Labron James is to basketball. Great political talent but he is not going to bring home many NBA titles. Definitely not a Bill Russell who was in almost every NBA final during his career and won every NBA final he was in except one. It would be easier to tolerate Obama's supporters if they would take off their blinders and evaluate Obama rationally. Basically Obama is way over his head and borders on being incompetent. Just ask Bill Clinton.

[Punter 127]

Zogby: Obama Facing 'Serious Crack' in His Youth Base

'The fly in the ointment for Barack Obama is young people. 18 to 29 years old. He won massively among that group. This is a completely different group this time around. [There has been] three and a half, almost four years of recession for this group, a lot of hopeless. Watch a battleground play out in the fall, not between Romney and Obama on college campuses but between Obama and Gary Johnson, the libertarian, who I think speaks to a lot of frustration of young people. ' [snip] 'Johnson could be a threat to Obama's campaign. [snip] 'He got 67 percent of 18-to-29-year-olds in 2008. I have him polling around 45, 46 percent of that group. It's going to be very hard for him to win. Every young person that does not turn out to vote for Obama or votes for Gary Johnson is a problem for Obama. '[snip]

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/zogby-obama-youth-base/2012/06/06/id/441409Perhaps Gary Johnson will play a productive role after all by pulling young votes away from Obummer. Maybe I should vote for Johnson as a protest vote?

[SnakeOilSales]

The US Economy is in the midst of a major structural adjustment that will require massive amounts of job re-training and changes to the way people are educated and prepared for entering the job market. This structural change in the labor market is a major reason for the high unemployment numbers (overabundance of construction industry labor as a result of the massive oversupply of housing, former factory and basic IT workers losing their positions to cheaper overseas labor, proliferation of college graduates with worthless college degrees). Workers with the correct skills ARE in demand and able to find high paying jobs; highly skilled technical and engineering jobs, not necessarily requiring a college degree in the high tech and energy industries.

The US government, of course, is a bloated albatross that has organized and legislated itself into being a wasteful burden upon the economy and the citizens it is supposed to serve. Entire executive branch departments should be de-commissioned (Energy, Education, Commerce, Labor for starters). In addition, the US military is entirely too large and should be trimmed down to provide the maximum service to the taxpayer at the minimum cost. The US Congress is totally broken as an institution and is in need of complete reform including term limits and an end to gerrymandering.

It is clear that Obama is NOT going to do anything to address the budget deficit and / or get the national debt under control as seems to prefer to just keep kicking the can down the road, as did his predecessor GW Bush. Obama's Health Care reform was ill timed and is terribly executed. In Obama's defense, he did inherit a very difficult set of circumstances that were entirely created by his predecessor, he has done a good job in foreign affairs (killing OBL and many other top Al-Queda types, not getting too deeply involved in the Arab Spring conflicts, getting out of Iraq and preparing to get out of Afghanistan) , and did carry through with TARP which prevented AIG and the automakers from being liquidated (and actually will not net much of a loss, if any for the USG).

If I actually believed that Romney was going to address the issues that Obama has failed to address and was going to carry out any of the reforms that I suggested I would vote for him in an instant. Unfortunately I see him pissing even more money away on the military and useless foreign wars and wasting too much time with stupid social issues that the right wing jesus freaks he panders to care about.

[Esten]

Republicans are whistling dixie if they think they don't bear a large share of responsibility for the debt:

- Unfunded Medicare Part D (vs. PPACA paid for)
- Unfunded wars
- Bush Tax Cuts
- Loss of revenues from recession mostly driven by conservative free-market policies

On the debt deal last summer, remember Obama was pushing for a combination of spending cuts and tax increases. A balanced approach that most Americans supported. A larger $4 Trillion deal could have been possible. But Repubs were constrained by a pledge they signed to an outside interest group, and opposed a balanced appoach, against the will of the American people. As a result we had a much smaller debt deal.

Republicans need to step up, demonstrate some accountability, and some willingness to compromise. Their ideology and actions are hurting the country, not helping.

[Texas Tornado]

Republicans are whistling dixie if they think they don't bear a large share of responsibility for the debt:

- Unfunded Medicare Part D (vs. PPACA paid for)

- Unfunded wars.

- Bush Tax Cuts.

- Loss of revenues from recession mostly driven by conservative free-market policies.

On the debt deal last summer, remember Obama was pushing for a combination of spending cuts and tax increases. A balanced approach that most Americans supported. A larger $4 Trillion deal could have been possible. But Repubs were constrained by a pledge they signed to an outside interest group, and opposed a balanced appoach, against the will of the American people. As a result we had a much smaller debt deal.

Republicans need to step up, demonstrate some accountability, and some willingness to compromise. Their ideology and actions are hurting the country, not helping.You are so full of shit.

[Jackson]

Republicans are whistling dixie if they think they don't bear a large share of responsibility for the debt:

- Unfunded Medicare Part D (vs. PPACA paid for)

- Unfunded wars.

- Bush Tax Cuts.

- Loss of revenues from recession mostly driven by conservative free-market policies.

On the debt deal last summer, remember Obama was pushing for a combination of spending cuts and tax increases. A balanced approach that most Americans supported. A larger $4 Trillion deal could have been possible. But Repubs were constrained by a pledge they signed to an outside interest group, and opposed a balanced appoach, against the will of the American people. As a result we had a much smaller debt deal.

Republicans need to step up, demonstrate some accountability, and some willingness to compromise. Their ideology and actions are hurting the country, not helping.Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha...

ROTFLMAO!

Stop it Esten, you're killing me...

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha...

[TejanoLibre]

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

ROTFLMAO!

Stop it Esten, you're killing me.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.That took a lot of key strokes to write!

Think about it!

I can hear you from here!

By the way, I think it's bare, not bear!

One is wooly and mean as shit and the other one bares a burden or such.

TL.

Honest mistake when you are livid and pissed!

[Rev BS]

I think Greece is ripe for the taking. Romney, with his experience from Bain, is the right man for this takeover of the decade. A natural ally from Word War I, Greece would welcome us with open arms. It would give us a strategic location for our bases, right under the weak chin of Russia, and hovering over the top of Ayotollah Iran and our oil fields in the Middle East. Obviously, he has to keep all this under wraps. The tip-off would be names like Chaney & Paulson being hinted as advisors or cabinet appointees. Another rumor is that Donald Trump is lobbying for the position of US Ambassador to the United Nations. But Romney has to put a quota how many press interviews he can give in one day. Trump has indicated that 10 is a nice round number.

I welcome this new acquisition, the food is good, the islands are paradise, and the women have the heat. The last is only hear-say, I don't have first hand experience, unless greek-american counts.

[Punter 127]

You didn't see it in the mainstream financial media Wednesday morning. But stocks loved Gov. Scott Walker's spanking of public-sector unions and Democrats in Wisconsin.

The Dow jumped about 165 points right at the opening on Wednesday, and closed ahead 234. There really was no other news. There was some speculation about central bank stimulus in Europe and the United States. Blah, blah, blah. But there was nothing specific or concrete.

So it's an easy point to make: Markets love the Scott Walker landslide.

Tuesday night on "The Kudlow Report," two investment gurus predicted a bullish market if Walker won. Art Hogan of Lazard Capital and Mike Ozanian of Forbes both forecasted a Walker rally. And that's just what we got Wednesday.

The logic? Well, mainly, a big Walker win opens the door to a Wisconsin victory for Mitt Romney this fall. Think of Walker as the leading indicator for November.

http://news.investors.com/article/613921/201206061815/markets-investors-like-governor-scott-walker-landslide.htmLeading indicator for November indeed, and the beginning of the end for public sector unions, and that's a win, win, win for America.

[Esten]

Sorry TL, seems "bear" is correct: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bear

Also google "bear the burden" or "right to bear arms"...... far more hits than with the "bare" spelling. You do realize when you call out incorrect spelling, you are supposed to check you are correct first? Tsk Tsk...

[TejanoLibre]

Sorry TL, seems "bear" is correct:

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bear

Also google "bear the burden" or "right to bear arms". Far more hits than with the "bare" spelling. You do realize when you call out incorrect spelling, you are supposed to check you are correct first? Tsk Tsk.Thanks Buddy!

Must have been a drunk keyboard or something!

There's a lot of those in the English language and that's why it is so difficult for foreigners.

Know, no. New, knew, etc, etc.

My last 2 American Sperm Banks where English Teachers and they would correct my e-mails!

I'm thankful for that, if only that!

American Sperm Banks do accept deposits though!

TL

[WorldTravel69]

Without the republicans help. It is not great, but better than before.


Those weren't jobs bills, they were tax-borrow-spend bills.

When will liberals ever learn that we cannot tax, borrow and spend our way to prosperity?

The answer is: They don't care, because borrowing money today allows them to payoff their supporters today while handing the bill to the taxpayers of tomorrow, all of which is an indirect method of redistributing wealth.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Silver Star]

Without the republicans help. It is not great, but better than before.Romney basically supported "some kind" of stimulus package himself, so there is not much difference between the two, except for some window dressing. If there was ever a time to vote for something different, and for what you believe in, now is the time.

That choice is Gary Johnson. Help break the stranglehold the 2 ruling parties have given us.

Also there are a lot of dissafected Liberals that may go Libertarian too, so Gary Johnson is viable. (Awesome track record too)

[WorldTravel69]

No Help from you dumb Republicans.

Well the Market has gone Up.

This chart is a couple days behind.

But the Market does not lie, Like Romney does, it is Going Up, Read it and Cry you selfcentered Republicans (Bastards).

What is your Bullshit Story as to the market report?

What I can say is that You did not Do Jack Shit to Help the People of the United States.

Read the US Constitution!

You non caring Republicans.

[Member #4112]

This is exactly what I am talking about, liberals choose a set of figures that they like regardless of if it has anything to do with current facts. WT69 the only lie I see here is yours. The graph you posted is from 2009 to 2010, take a look at 2009 to 2012 my friend and you get a much different story. Be prepared for recession II when Greece goes under after the June 17th elections and defaults, followed by the next debt ceiling debacle in August when the fight starts again on raising it or holding firm and cutting services. Since the Democrats are in the White House they will choose cuts what most adversely affect the people and not the ones that make the most sense

[Jackson]

What I can say is that You did not Do Jack Shit to Help the People of the United States.

Read the US Constitution!

You non caring Republicans."Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Do you know what self-centered, uncaring motherfucker said this to the American people in a national address?

Here's another one I like:

"The normal must take care of themselves"

WT, you'll never get it: People must take care of themselves, period.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Jackson]

But Romney has to put a quota how many press interviews he can give in one day. Trump has indicated that 10 is a nice round number.I'd accept that if Obama will accept a quota on the number of fundraisers he can give in one day.

10 sounds like a reasonable number for both men.

Oh, wait, it's now irrelevant how many fundraisers Obama gives, because last month Romney became the first Obama opponent in any election to raise more money than Obama.

I think the Obama boat is starting to take on water.

Isn't that when the rats start to jump off the ship?

Thanks,

Jackson

[Member #4112]

Obama's claims of lower Federal spending under his watch are not just lies, but damn lies! If you want to see Democrat propaganda at work check out this story which debunks the claim some dumbass report came up with by juggling the numbers and back loading spending passed by a lame duck congress and signed by Obama.

http://m.spokesman.com/stories/2012/jun/05/obamas-claim-unfounded/

PolitiFact called Obama's spending claim 'mostly true', so they show their true colors as just another liberal flunky.

By the way Esten, are you still claiming as Obama did how much oil the US has verses the rest of the world. If so, check out the US Geological Services estimates of the Eagle Ford and Bakken reserves. If you can't read I'll make it easy for you, at an estimated 50% recovery rate with today's technology we now have more reserves than Saudi Arabia. Couple that with what we can get from the Canada oil sand deposits and there is no reason to import oil when it's developed here! Our oil and American jobs!

But that does not work for the environmental types who want the pipe dream of wind and solar.

[Rev BS]

But that does not work for the environmental types who want the pipe dream of wind and solar.There will always be extremists on the enviroment issue, but I think that all of us have enjoyed the grandeur and beauty of the US national parks, so there is appreciation for nature in all of us. So the fight is enviroment vs profits (in the name of progress)

Our automobile & petroleum industry were developed in an era of cheap & plentiful gas. There is no denying that they are responsible for our incredble high standard of liviing, the era of plenty. As a result, other types of land transportation systems were ignored or otherwise undeveloped. The automobile is also part of the American psyche, it invokes freedom, independence & wealth. Often, all you need to get a chick was 6-pack and a car. And the sperm spiralling in the back seat at the drive-ins! Now that gas prices have skyrocked, we are in a state of shock and anger. So the question is at what level do we have to consume to find contentment, be it driving across town to work or play, or how many colories we consume whilst watching tv, or 30 minutes in the jacuzzi. What do we have to give up? Sorry, it's that old addiction theory again, that damn marketing stategy that have ensnared into us into believing that we don't have to save for tomorrow.

To be continued, I kind of forgot what I really wanted to say.

[Member #4112]

You must have seen the same documentary I did about the American love affair with the car. Man you are showing you age if you can remember all those things, as I do.

The thing about capitalism is when someone builds the better mouse trap all us rats beat a path to their door. Until someone comes up with that better mouse trap we are stuck with oil. Maybe one thing the automakers could have done is what Brazil did years ago, make cars that run on gas, natural gas or alcohol. But we are geared for gas and the EPA would have field day with fueling points trying to offer multipe types of fuel. The environment impact studies would last a life time alone

[Tiny12]

No Help from you dumb Republicans.

Well the Market has gone Up.

This chart is a couple days behind.

But the Market does not lie, Like Romney does, it is Going Up, Read it and Cry you selfcentered Republicans (Bastards).

What is your Bullshit Story as to the market report?

What I can say is that You did not Do Jack Shit to Help the People of the United States.

Read the US Constitution!

You non caring Republicans.Although much of it was wasted on foolish government spending, the billions of dollars that Romney and other wealthy Republicans have paid in taxes have done a lot to Help the People of the United States.

Maybe you should read the Constitution. It was written by people who whose beliefs were a hell of a lot closer to Gary Johnson's and Mitt Romney's than Barrack Obama's.

Selfcentered Democrat Bastards. Always looking for a handout.

Have you considered moving to Cuba? It has everything you're looking for -- equality, equal pay for equal work, an economy run by caring government bureaucrats instead of greedy corporations and small businesses, and lots of cheap poontang. Oh yeah, I forgot, they figured out that didn't work and they're changing it. Well, there's always North Korea.

[WorldTravel69]

I am confused, Why isn't Romney and his rich cronies creating jobs. If Obama tries to create jobs the Republicans say he is adding more to the high Deficit, that Bush started.

If Romney gets elected, then this country will be closer to Cuba standard of living. The Rich running the country; same as Bush, with no regard for the workers, other than exploiting them.

Cut Schools, Police and workers wages, etc.

Get rid of Family Planning (Family Planning, not abortion clinics). I know, Let the Women go back to using Coat Hangers. The first Bush signed the Family Planning Bill into law.

The Supreme Court is under question. They are supposed to decide the cases, judging them on their Merits, not their Political Parties beliefs.


Although much of it was wasted on foolish government spending, the billions of dollars that Romney and other wealthy Republicans have paid in taxes have done a lot to Help the People of the United States.

Maybe you should read the Constitution. It was written by people who whose beliefs were a hell of a lot closer to Gary Johnson's and Mitt Romney's than Barrack Obama's.

Selfcentered Democrat Bastards. Always looking for a handout.

Have you considered moving to Cuba? It has everything you're looking for. Equality, equal pay for equal work, an economy run by caring government bureaucrats instead of greedy corporations and small businesses, and lots of cheap poontang. Oh yeah, I forgot, they figured out that didn't work and they're changing it. Well, there's always North Korea.

[Member #4112]

WT 69, what about all that Hope and Change, transparency in government, and my personal favorite cutting the deficit by HALF not doubling it in three and a half years? Why do you liberals complain when Team Obama had bulletproof majorities in both the House and the Senate, passing every liberal wet dream you guys had?

When people lost faith in the 'Hope & Change' president in 2010 delivering a shellacking to the liberals all you guys do is piss and moan about how the Republicans stonewall you, blaming everything for the last three and a half years on them even though liberals ran wild for the first two? Was this not the president who told the Republicans we won you lost sit down and shut up in 2008, totally shutting them out of the legislative process?

As conservatives are poised to hold the House and win both the Senate and the White House remember that revenge is a dish best served cold, just as liberals served it to the conservatives in 2008. So break out the crying towels for both the government unions and the liberals!

[Esten]

People must take care of themselves, period.Tell that to the person who needs medical attention due to an illness or accident.

Once again conservatives want to boil it down to a false choice: either you do it yourself, or someone else does it for you.

That is not the debate.

It is a question of odds. Whether we want a society where the odds are 1 in 10 that you can move up the ladder. Or where the odds are say 3 in 10, or better. Liberal policies are not about giving people a free ticket to the middle class. They are aimed at giving people a better shot, increasing their odds. Hard work and self-effort are still central and essential.

[Esten]

Maybe you should read the Constitution. It was written by people who whose beliefs were a hell of a lot closer to Gary Johnson's and Mitt Romney's than Barrack Obama's.Somehow I doubt those people ever envisioned a society where 5% of the population controls 80% of the wealth.

They did not anticipate the rise of Wall Street and Corporatism.

[Member #4112]

See Esten, you are back to "groups" not "individuals", again the defining difference between liberals and conservatives. This is exactly what the argument is about.

If conservatives wish to help those less fortunate they wish to be free to so by choice, fee to determine when, how and how much they wish to help, not have the government telling them not only when and how they should be compassionate but how much they are forced to pay.

[Jackson]

People must take care of themselves, period.Tell that to the person who needs medical attention due to an illness or accident.

Once again conservatives want to boil it down to a false choice: either you do it yourself, or someone else does it for you.

That is not the debate.

It is a question of odds. Whether we want a society where the odds are 1 in 10 that you can move up the ladder. Or where the odds are say 3 in 10, or better. Liberal policies are not about giving people a free ticket to the middle class. They are aimed at giving people a better shot, increasing their odds. Hard work and self-effort are still central and essential.Hey Esten,

You mis-quoted me, but then that is a favorite liberal tactic.

What I wrote was "The normal must take care of themselves.", and to continue your example, Yes, I would tell the normal "person who needs medical attention due to an illness or accident" that he or she is responsible for purchasing medical insurance for themselves specifically to safeguard themselves from exactly this calamity.

We call this phenomenon "personal responsibility".

Thanks,

Jackson

[Jackson]

Somehow I doubt those people ever envisioned a society where 5% of the population controls 80% of the wealth.

They did not anticipate the rise of Wall Street and Corporatism.They also probably never envisioned a society where 40% of the citizens would be sitting on their ass waiting for the government to give them money.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Tiny12]

They also probably never envisioned a society where 40% of the citizens would be sitting on their ass waiting for the government to give them money.

Thanks,

Jackson

Scenario 1.

A castaway on a ship washes up on an island with 4 bushels of barley. He's hungry. He eats a bushel and plants the rest. Some months later he ends up with 60 bushels of barley, from what he planted. He starts trading with the natives, who benefit from an additional steady food source.

Scenario 2.

Someone washes up on an island with 4 bushels of barley. The local chief takes 3 bushels and distributes it to his subjects, who eat it. The shipwrecked castaway eats the remaining bushel. The natives don't have the motivation to fish or hunt, because they have the barley. A few months later everyone is hungry.

[WorldTravel69]

There was some hope with this bill, but the Republicans said screw the Women.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s3220/show

According to the constitution it passed by the simple majority. But because we a Black President it now take 60 votes. Filibuster my ass.

What crock of shit.


WT 69, what about all that Hope and Change, transparency in government, and my personal favorite cutting the deficit by HALF not doubling it in three and a half years? Why do you liberals complain when Team Obama had bulletproof majorities in both the House and the Senate, passing every liberal wet dream you guys had?

When people lost faith in the 'Hope & Change' president in 2010 delivering a shellacking to the liberals all you guys do is piss and moan about how the Republicans stonewall you, blaming everything for the last three and a half years on them even though liberals ran wild for the first two? Was this not the president who told the Republicans we won you lost sit down and shut up in 2008, totally shutting them out of the legislative process?

As conservatives are poised to hold the House and win both the Senate and the White House remember that revenge is a dish best served cold, just as liberals served it to the conservatives in 2008. So break out the crying towels for both the government unions and the liberals!

[Tiny12]

There was some hope with this bill, but the Republicans said screw the Women.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s3220/show

According to the constitution it passed by the simple majority. But because we a Black President it now take 60 votes. Filibuster my ass.

What crock of shit.Passed my ass. It never received majority approval in the House of Representatives. Did you actually read the Constitution or are you just telling other people to do it?

There are already laws on the books for sex discrimination, like the Equal Pay Act. This is a gift to the plaintiff's attorneys, some of the biggest donors to Obama's campaign and the Democrat Party. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

[Member #4112]

WT69, if liberals were so worried about women, why didn't they pass it when they had a super majority in both the House and the Senate the first two years of Obama's presidency? I'll tell you why, they don't really give a damn about women or anyone else for that matter, they only care about themselves. So why are you now crying about the 60 vote rule to bring a measure to the floor for debate in the Senate, a rule put in place years ago.

[Member #4112]

WT69, if you are so committed to women's rights, why don't you pay all the working girls in the third world countries you visit the same rate as the top hookers in Vegas? I mean fair is fair, right?

Better yet why haven't you joined with Christina to abolish the trade all together if you are so concerned?

[Matt Psyche]

You need a support from the majority of the House members and "60" out of 100 senators. So, most bills passed by Congress, regardless of unified or divided government, are bipartisan bills. Two years ago, Democrats had a narrow super majority in the Senate (59 or 60 votes I guess) , some of whom were Southern Democrats, who often differ from other Democrats.


WT69, if liberals were so worried about women, why didn't they pass it when they had a super majority in both the House and the Senate the first two years of Obama's presidency? .

[Rev BS]

I wish Obama would force our adopted child, Israel, to sent in a team to assasinate Assad. I know it can be done. Why is Israel sitting on their hands? Assad is an old hated enemy. Why is everyone so quiet about this. Too far away or no oil fields? It should have been done months ago, the mafia way.

[El Alamo]

The local school here had their students write essays on what a Obama's second term would look like if he is reelected. Recurring themes were.

1) rising unemployment.

2) stagnant economy becoming a full fledged depression.

3) Obama's wife taking innumerable taxpayer funded luxury vacations while the common people have trouble paying for a 99 cent McDonalds hamburger. Don't even think about a Big Mac.

4) Obama clinging to his birdbrain idea that public sector jobs are equivalent to private sector jobs.

5) riots in the streets policed by Black Panthers.

6) adminstration orchestrated security leaks.

7) Obama sounding like a retard without a telepromptor.

8) Obama being forced to admit that he was born in Kenya / Indonesia.

9) elections decided by dead and nonexistant voters.

10) attorney general Holder forced to take an IQ test which reveals an IQ between a moron and imbecile.

11) Obama admitting that he read Economics for Dummies but found it way over his head.

12) Obama seeking marriage counseling from ex senator John Edwards

13) Obama taking career preparation courses to be a drug dealer for life after the White House

14) Obama researching what number comes after trillion in order to discuss the national debt

On the upside.

1) daily golfing outings improve Obamas golf game.

2) Obama might predict the March Madness basketball winner again.

3) Obama tries out as a free agent point guard for the Miami Heat

4) Geroge Clooney and Barbara Streisand move into the White House

Who said our kids have lost their edge?

[WorldTravel69]

Your right it does look better than when Bush was in office, with the complete info.


This is exactly what I am talking about, liberals choose a set of figures that they like regardless of if it has anything to do with current facts. WT69 the only lie I see here is yours. The graph you posted is from 2009 to 2010, take a look at 2009 to 2012 my friend and you get a much different story. Be prepared for recession II when Greece goes under after the June 17th elections and defaults, followed by the next debt ceiling debacle in August when the fight starts again on raising it or holding firm and cutting services. Since the Democrats are in the White House they will choose cuts what most adversely affect the people and not the ones that make the most sense

[WorldTravel69]

First, the bill was going to give equal pay for women doing the same work as men. As they do with most Union wages. It is the Non-Union places that the employers Exploit the women giving them less than equal pay.

Second, you got off the point bringing up the working girls in Vegas (Not just Vegas, but all of Nevada).

I remember 40+ years ago that their hourly charges with higher than what I made in an Hour. Now they are through the roof.

Most of the Argentine working girls are making more per hour than what I was making at the time of my retirement in 05.

So, you 1%ers need to pay more of your fair share!

I paid more than I made!


WT69, if you are so committed to women's rights, why don't you pay all the working girls in the third world countries you visit the same rate as the top hookers in Vegas? I mean fair is fair, right?

Better yet why haven't you joined with Christina to abolish the trade all together if you are so concerned?

[WorldTravel69]

No Solar Panels.

[WorldTravel69]

Transparency. Let's see, he has made over 900 speeches since he was first in office. That does not sound like he is hiding anything.

Off course you will not hear about those speeches on Conservative Radio and TV.


WT 69, what about all that Hope and Change, transparency in government,

[Member #4112]

WT69 if making speechs = transparency then bullshit = truth. Since your boy is full of both bullshit and speeches then I guess you could say that's transparency.

From my point I would just say your boy is transparent. It is obvious he is in over his head, has no idea what he is doing, and is on a super ego trip.

Only liberals want to punish the productive to reward the non-productive.

As far as solar is concerned, even with the massive subsidies provided by the government neither wind nor solar are economically viable sources of energy.

We have already had one “Fair Pay” bill pass, why do you need another. Just political dressing for the democrats. Read the bill there is a lot more in there than that. Unions in the private sector only account for 7 – 9% of the work force, the only place unions exist in any numbers is in government which is now experiencing the same restrictions placed on private sector years ago. Welcome to reality

WT69 I don’t want to hear you crying about your retirement, all I want to know is as a champion of women’s rights are you paying your third world chica’s the same wage as hookers in Vegas TODAY.

WT69 why aren’t you out there on the lines with Christina demanding an end to this practice which so degrades women, or are you only a capitalist when it come to cuz?

[Jackson]

So, you 1%ers need to pay more of your fair share!Hey WT,

To the rest of the world, every American is a 1%er.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Rev BS]

Hey WT,

To the rest of the world, every American is a 1%er.

Thanks,

JacksonI agree, but.

Too many Americans may be overweight couch potatoes, but a new study from North Carolona finds that people in 4 other countries are just out of shape and sedentary as we are. The UK, China, India, Brazil joins the US to represent about 1/2 of the world"s population. By 2020, the study predicts, the average American will not expand a whole lot more energy in a typical day than someone who slept all day long.

Scaring, since I already am known as the world's most well-rested guy. But the thought of doing it 3 times a day is scaring, too.

[Member #4112]

I wouldn't be too concerned Black Shirt. I know you are a postive dynamo when in country, so your recouping while home could only be considered recharging the battery before your next trip! I can bet they are not measuring Monger energy expenditures in these studies! Even Esten and WT69 are doing their part to expend energy while mongering to dispell the sedentary stigma!

[WorldTravel69]

Judging by your posts, you have not traveled much.

Most of your posts on this site are political. I do not find any posts of yours on the International site.

Only a few on this site are about women.

So, how do you know so much about women? You have been to Argentina how many times? For a week or two?

You talk about Christina. Your party views are the same as hers. GREED and NO SEX. (Santorum)

You're stuck in that Republican Bubble. Your Conservative stations sensor information from you, about what is really going on in the USA, otherwise you would have known that he has made 900+ and knew what he said.

In other words you do not know Jack.


WT69 if making speechs = transparency then bullshit = truth. Since your boy is full of both bullshit and speeches then I guess you could say that's transparency.

From my point I would just say your boy is transparent. It is obvious he is in over his head, has no idea what he is doing, and is on a super ego trip.

Only liberals want to punish the productive to reward the non-productive.

As far as solar is concerned, even with the massive subsidies provided by the government neither wind nor solar are economically viable sources of energy.

We have already had one 'Fair Pay' bill pass, why do you need another. Just political dressing for the democrats. Read the bill there is a lot more in there than that. Unions in the private sector only account for 7 – 9% of the work force, the only place unions exist in any numbers is in government which is now experiencing the same restrictions placed on private sector years ago. Welcome to reality.

WT69 I don't want to hear you crying about your retirement, all I want to know is as a champion of women's rights are you paying your third world chica's the same wage as hookers in Vegas TODAY.

WT69 why aren't you out there on the lines with Christina demanding an end to this practice which so degrades women, or are you only a capitalist when it come to because?

[Jackson]

So, you 1%ers need to pay more of your fair share!Hey WT,

Now that we've established that as an American citizen you are also a 1%er, are you now going to "pay more of your fair share"?

Thanks,

Jackson

[Dccpa]

Transparency. Let's see, he has made over 900 speeches since he was first in office. That does not sound like he is hiding anything.

Off course you will not hear about those speeches on Conservative Radio and TV.WT,

If you take out the fundraisers, you are down about 3-400 speeches. Then you also have to offset / subtract the speeches where he took one side of an issue in one speech and then the other side of the issue in a separate speech. Then you have to subtract the speeches where he put all those qualifiers / conditions on his statements. Like the famous speech that he would pull troops out of Iraq within 16-18 (?) months , subject to conditions on the ground at that time.

Now can you really say he isn't hiding anything when he has only given 13 speeches in 3 & 1/2 years? .

[Member #4112]

Well WT69 I see you have run out of ideas and now have resorted to personal attacks. What a shame.

I have traveled extensively in South America for many years as well as other parts of the world, such as Russia and the Ukraine. Regarding Argentina, you can check my bona fides with Jackson since I've known him for many years during my travels to BsAs, you could also check with Stranger for recent trips. So like very thing else you post your just plain wrong again.

I posted when I first started to come down here years ago but got out of the habit, my bad.

Christina is so close to the Obamanation they could be brother and sister. She is not interested in the Republican point of view only the socialist / US style democrat type of steal from the productive to give to the unproductive.

You are correct about one thing, she is like all her Democratic brothers and sisters in the USA when it comes to screwing everyone to gather wealth for themselves.

I see the Obamanation is now so concerned with illegal immigrants and he now wishes to lift the cloud or deportation from their brows, the "dream act" by presidential fait. My only question is why is he concerned about the welfare of NON-CITIZENS when the unemployment rate of AMERICAN CITIZENS in the same age bracket is around 15+% Shouldn't the president be more concerned for the citizens he is sworn to protect and defend?

I am really going to enjoy waving good bye to Obama in January 2013.

[WorldTravel69]

I Apologize about your wisdom on traveling.

But not about you being still stuck in the Republican Bubble.


Well WT69 I see you have run out of ideas and now have resorted to personal attacks. What a shame.

I have traveled extensively in South America for many years as well as other parts of the world, such as Russia and the Ukraine. Regarding Argentina, you can check my bona fides with Jackson since I've known him for many years during my travels to BsAs, you could also check with Stranger for recent trips. So like very thing else you post your just plain wrong again.

I posted when I first started to come down here years ago but got out of the habit, my bad.

Christina is so close to the Obamanation they could be brother and sister. She is not interested in the Republican point of view only the socialist / US style democrat type of steal from the productive to give to the unproductive.

You are correct about one thing, she is like all her Democratic brothers and sisters in the USA when it comes to screwing everyone to gather wealth for themselves.

I see the Obamanation is now so concerned with illegal immigrants and he now wishes to lift the cloud or deportation from their brows, the "dream act" by presidential fait. My only question is why is he concerned about the welfare of NON-CITIZENS when the unemployment rate of AMERICAN CITIZENS in the same age bracket is around 15+% Shouldn't the president be more concerned for the citizens he is sworn to protect and defend?

I am really going to enjoy waving good bye to Obama in January 2013.

[Member #4112]

Thanks but I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the political side. Monger on big guy

[Matt Psyche]

The Fed gov spending has accounted for a little over 20% of GDP in last decades regardless of R or D president and regardless of R or D unified government. Including state and local govt spendings, the total govtl spending is about 35% of the GDP- a smaller ratio than UK, France and Germany and similar to Japan. However, you are entitled to call your government "socialist" on this yelling thread.


Christina is so close to the Obamanation they could be brother and sister. She is not interested in the Republican point of view only the socialist / US style democrat type of steal from the productive to give to the unproductive.The welfare of Non-Citizens does not indicate a lack of interest for the welfare of the citizens. They are not neccessarily in a trade-off. Would any leniency on illegal American residents in France implicate that the French government is ignorant of its citizens?


My only question is why is he concerned about the welfare of NON-CITIZENS when the unemployment rate of AMERICAN CITIZENS in the same age bracket is around 15+% Shouldn't the president be more concerned for the citizens he is sworn to protect and defend? .

[Member #4112]

Matt, while your percentages may apply well across European countries it does not compare well to an economy as large as the US, not that I am accepting the percentages you posted. I did notice you did not post any numbers regarding the number of persons participating in the funding of the governments cited via those governments' tax systems. When you have nearly 50% of the population no longer supporting government spending through income tax payments, as we do here in the US, percentages regarding government spending vs GDP become meaningless.

Matt, do you believe France is having a massive influx of Americans entering the country illegally and living off their welfare, educational, and other social systems? They welcome Americans, if you can really say the French welcome anyone, because they are called Tourists and spend money thereby pumping capital into their economy and then they go home. Your argument regarding illegal immigration here, big difference between wading the Rio Grande or crossing a geographic line vs swimming across the Atlantic Ocean, is invalid on its face. Our government is sworn to defend and protect its Citizens, it is also sworn to defend our boarders which with this new 'interpretation' of the law by Obama turns that duty into a joke. Enacting the 'Dream Act' without legislation by ordering a federal law enforcement agency to ignore the law is beyond the pale.

Obama envies Hugo Chavez's ability to rule by decree / fiat and is attempting to do the same here. This is nothing more the pure raw politics with no social conscious which liberal always brag about having. This is no different than the Democrat's stunt in the Senate with the women's pay issue or the Republican's stunt in the House with the gender based abortion issue.

With unemployment of its citizens at all time highs, not to mention those no longer counted, the government's first obligation is to its citizens and not to illegal immigrants. What part of ILLEGAL do liberals not understand?

[Jackson]

What part if ILLEGAL do liberals not understand?Excuse me Doppleganger, but as the forum's official "Political Correctness" police, I must advise you that we've all been asked to "Drop the I":

http://colorlines.com/droptheiword/

Thanks,

Jax

[Member #4112]

Must have missed the memo on that on, but I thought that memo came from the folks I was talking about who are now getting into heavy PC mode. I guess they are now legally challenged, geographicly challenged? Is that proper?
To quote Rhett Butler "Quite frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."

[Toymann]

Excuse me Doppleganger, but as the forum's official "Political Correctness" police, I must advise you that we've all been asked to "Drop the I":

Thanks,

JaxLMAO. What liberal foolishness. My favourite is the "I am not illegal but UNDOCUMENTED"! Bet WT69 dreams this type of shit up in his sleep. LOL. Monger On Dude. Toymann

[Rev BS]

For every illegal immigrant, an American citizen or business entity commits a violation by employing them. Under both Republican or Democrat regimes, in Texas or Alaska. In recent years, we have seen high profile elected officials or politicians running for office been exposed to this illegal activiity. So the question is, what is the underlying motivating factor in us that allow this problem to mushroom, and to enter into every facet of our lives.

It has been said that illegal immigrants exists because they do jobs that Americans do no want to do, jobs that do not pay minimum wages, or are in violation of safety regulations, etc. This is happening all over the world, not just the US. In Singapore, they recently passed a law prohibiting households from forcing their maids to clean the outside of their high rise windows. So far, there has been 6 or 7 deaths of maids plunging to their deaths. There is a word for this, exploitation. It is direct, or indirect, but we are all a part of it.

You can shout or moan all you want, but you are doing it from the point of your vested interest. Just remember that. Patriotism, forget that.